Diving into Dthrow - Everything you need to know about tech chasing

Order is first by Rank from 3/9 to 9/9, then my Alphabetical Order

We won't be getting frame data. The following sums it up nicely:

"AIM Convo with __crystal___ said:

zaquake (6:19:38 PM): So pretty muchslow is .~625 average. and .565 on average for fast.
zaquake (6:19:47 PM): On normal time.
Invokke08Havokk (6:19:59 PM): oh lulz I fail.
Invokke08Havokk (6:20:02 PM): ok
Invokke08Havokk (6:20:11 PM): so basically the differene is .1 of a second?
Invokke08Havokk (6:20:19 PM): er
Invokke08Havokk (6:20:20 PM): not eve
Invokke08Havokk (6:20:25 PM): 0.06 of a second
Invokke08Havokk (6:20:32 PM): which means 6 frames about
zaquake (6:20:34 PM): 38 frames slow 34 frames fast...
Invokke08Havokk (6:20:47 PM): Oo how am I failing at my math atm? lmao
zaquake (6:20:57 PM): I cheat, calculator lol

Click to expand...

For Ranking said:

Both rolls are counted seperately:
Far rolls get 3 points.
Medium rolls get 2 points.
Short rolls get 1 point.

Towards - Away gets 3 points
Both / Away - Towards + need to move to avoid gets 2 points
Away - Towards gets 1 point

Points are added and out of 9

This means some people may have 3 points from 1 area and 1 point from both of the others and still be 5/9 which looks bad. But note that the lowest it can go is 3/9 which is good.

5/9 is 4 from 9/9 but only 2 from 3/9

Click to expand...

For Attacks said:

Red:
Towards - Away

You should shield first, and if they attack shield the first hit then let down your shield and grab them. (Or shield grab, but sometimes they hit you to far away)

Orange:
Both

You should be able to shield then shield grab these hits. They generally come out fast, so you want to shield.


Away - Towards (Have to move to avoid)

Just walk away a little bit until after they do their first attack, then grab them. Alternatively walk away a bit then powershield and grab after the second hit.

Green:
Away - Towards

You don't have to shield until you see their attack. Note that you do need quick reactions if you plan on doing this. People with an Away-Towards attack allow you to tech chase easier because you can simply react to anything they do.

Click to expand...

For roll away said:

I have color coded these so that people may gauge how far they have to run before grabbing or if they ran to far and need to wait, etc. If you would like to get a better idea of how far you need to run please take a look at the image given at the bottom of this post.


Red:
Very Far

You will have to Boost Grab to regrab, and testing is not yet finished but I think Snake (the only Very far) and avoid being regrabbed.

Punishable with:
Dash attack / DACUS should hit

Orange:
Far

You may have to Boost Grab to regrab.

Punishable with:
Dash Attack / DACUS / Regrab

Yellow:
Mid

A normal dash grab will do.

Punishable with:
Dash Attack / DACUS / Regrab / 2nd hit of ftilt (maybe first?)

Green:
Short

A normal dash grab will do.

Punishable with:
Dash Attack / DACUS / Regrab / 1st hit of ftilt? / Utilt (walk a bit?) / Dair

Click to expand...

For Roll Towards said:

I have color coded these so that people may gauge how far they have to run before grabbing or if they ran to far and need to wait, etc. If you would like to get a better idea of how far you need to run please take a look at the image given at the bottom of this post.

Red:
Long Distance

Punishable with:
Regrab / 2nd hit of ftilt? / Walking utilt?

Medium Turquoise
Medium Distance

Punishable with:
Regrab / 1st hit of ftilt? / Walking utilt? / Dair?

Lime:
Shortest Distance

Punishable with:
Regrab / 1st hit of ftilt? / Walking utilt? / Dair?

Dark Slate Gray:
Troll Roll (Charizard only)

Punishable with:
Jab / Ftilt / Dash Attack / DACUS / Utilt / Dtilt / Regrab / Dair / Turn around SH bair? / SH FF uair?

Click to expand...

Charizard - Ranking: 3/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Short
Roll towards: Troll Roll
Dthrow > Buffered Jab will work on this character only if they do not input a get up attack or a roll

Toon Link - Ranking: 3/9

Attack: Away - Towards
Roll away: Short
Roll towards: Shortest Distance

Mr. Game & Watch - Ranking: 4/9

Attack: Away - Towards
Roll away: Mid
Roll towards: Shortest Distance
Dthrow > Buffered Jab will work on this character only if they do not input a get up attack or a roll

Squirtle - Ranking: 4/9

Attack: Away - Towards (Move back to avoid getting hit by away hit)
Roll away: Short
Roll towards: Shortest Distance

Fox - Ranking: 5/9

Attack: Away - Towards
Roll away: Mid
Roll towards: Medium Distance

Ice Climbers - Ranking: 5/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Short
Roll towards: Shortest Distance

Jigglypuff - Ranking: 5/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Short
Roll towards: Shortest Distance
Dthrow > Buffered Jab will work on this character only if they do not input a get up attack or a roll

Kirby - Ranking: 5/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Short
Roll towards: Shortest Distance
Dthrow > Buffered Jab will work on this character only if they do not input a get up attack or a roll

Olimar - Ranking: 5/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Short
Roll towards: Shortest Distance

Pit - Ranking: 5/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Short
Roll towards: Shortest Distance

R.O.B. - Ranking: 5/9

Attack: Both Sides
Roll away: Mid
Roll towards: Shortest Distance
Dthrow > Buffered Jab will work on this character only if they do not input a get up attack or a roll

:shiek: Sheik - Ranking: 5/9

Attack: Away - Towards
Roll away: Mid
Roll towards: Medium Distance

Wario - Ranking: 5/9

Attack: Away - Towards
Roll away: Mid
Roll towards: Medium Distance
Dthrow > Buffered Jab will work on this character only if they do not input a get up attack or a roll

King Dedede - Ranking: 6/9

Attack: Away - Towards
Roll away: Mid
Roll towards: Long Distance
Dthrow > Buffered Jab will work on this character only if they do not input a get up attack or a roll

Falco - Ranking: 6/9

Attack: Away - Towards
Roll away: Far
Roll towards: Medium Distance

Ivysaur - Ranking: 6/9

Attack: Away - Towards
Roll away: Far
Roll towards: Medium Distance
Dthrow > Buffered Jab will work on this character only if they do not input a get up attack or a roll

Link - Ranking: 6/9

Attack: Away - Towards
Roll away: Far
Roll towards: Medium Distance
Dthrow > Buffered Jab will work on this character only if they do not input a get up attack or a roll

Luigi - Ranking: 6/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Mid
Roll towards: Medium Distance

Meta Knight - Ranking: 6/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Short
Roll towards: Medium Distance
Dthrow > Buffered Jab will work on this character only if they do not input a get up attack or a roll

Samus - Ranking: 6/9

Attack: Both Sides
Roll away: Mid
Roll towards: Medium Distance

Yoshi - Ranking: 6/9

Attack: Away - Towards (Move back to avoid getting hit by away hit)
Roll away: Mid
Roll towards: Medium Distance

Bowser - Ranking: 7/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Mid
Roll towards: Medium Distance
Dthrow > Buffered Jab will work on this character only if they do not input a get up attack or a roll

Diddy Kong - Ranking: 7/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Mid
Roll towards: Medium Distance

Donkey Kong - Ranking: 7/9

Attack: Towards-Away
Roll away: Mid
Roll towards: Medium Distance
Dthrow > Buffered Jab will work on this character only if they do not input a get up attack or a roll

Captain Falcon - Ranking: 7/9

Attack: Both Sides
Roll away: Mid
Roll towards: Long Distance

Lucas - Ranking: 7/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Mid
Roll towards: Medium Distance

Mario - Ranking: 7/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Mid
Roll towards: Medium Distance

Ness - Ranking: 7/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Mid
Roll towards: Medium Distance

Peach - Ranking: 7/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Mid
Roll towards: Medium Distance

Pikachu - Ranking: 7/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Mid
Roll towards: Medium Distance

Sonic - Ranking: 7/9

Attack: Away - Towards
Roll away: Mid
Roll towards: Medium Distance

Wolf - Ranking: 7/9

Attack: Away - Towards
Roll away: Far
Roll towards: Long Distance
Dthrow > Buffered Jab will work on this character only if they do not input a get up attack or a roll

Ganondorf - Ranking: 8/9

Attack: Both Sides
Roll away: Far
Roll towards: Long Distance

Lucario - Ranking: 8/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Far
Roll towards: Medium Distance

Zero Suit Samus - Ranking: 8/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Far
Roll towards: Medium Distance

Ike - Ranking: 9/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Far
Roll towards: Long Distance
Dthrow > Buffered Jab will work on this character only if they do not input a get up attack or a roll

Marth - Ranking: 9/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Far
Roll towards: Long Distance

Snake - Ranking: 9/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Very Far
Roll towards: Long Distance

Zelda - Ranking: 9/9

Attack: Towards - Away
Roll away: Far
Roll towards: Long Distance





Data was gathered by:

__crystal____ said:

Sorry for the double post, but it's been awhile since the last one anyway and this will bump the thread. If you want to delete a post do the one above this one.

Testing for get-up attacks below 100% after snake has just used Dthrow.

Towards-Away
DK
Mario
Kirby
Pikachu
Marth
Luigi
Diddy Kong
Zelda
Pit
MK
Charizard
Ike
SNake
Ness
Lucario
ICs (Both of them)
Peach
Bowser
Olimar
Jiggs
Lucas
ZSS

Away - Towards
DDD
Link
Fox
G&W
Shiek
Falco
Squirtle (Move back to avoid getting hit by away hit)
Ivysaur (Can stand and not get hit by away hit)
Sonic (Can stand and not get hit by away hit)
Wolf (Can stand and not get hit by away hit)
Yoshi (Move back to avoid getting hit by away hit)
Wario (Can stand and not get hit by away hit)
TL (Can stand and not get hit by away hit)

Both Sides
Samus
Ganon
ROB
CF

So pretty much everyone on the Away-Towards list people are the ones that are likely to be possible to get a 100% follow up on.



Will edit later with over 100% get-up attack results and other things.

Click to expand...

spudzalot said:

Okay I have tested the distances of all the characters rolls after Snakes down throw.

I tested by having the character standing in the middle of Final Destination and Snake on one side. I would use Snakes Dthrow and see how far the character would roll from the middle. Then placed them into categories classified by the arrows on this stage. Here is a pic with the areas marked.

White = Character
Brown = Snake

Red = Very Far
Orange = Far
Yellow = Mid
Green = Short


And here are the results.

Very Far:
Snake

Far:
Link
Zelda
Ganon
Ivysaur
Lucario
Falco
Wolf
Marth
Ike
Zero Suit Samus

Mid:
Game and Watch
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
DK
Diddy
Yoshi
Wario
Shiek
Samus
ROB
King Dedede
Captain Falcon
Pikachu
Fox
Lucas
Ness
Sonic

Short:
Pit
Toon Link
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Metaknight
Olimar
Squirtle
Charizard
Jigglypuff

I would have tested speed already but I dont know how I should do it. I need some sort of thing like the arrows of FD to determine what is considered fast and what is considered slow. If anyone has any ideas that would be cool.

Click to expand...

__crystal___ said:

I have the results on distance for the backward rolls. Should anyone feel I didnt' do this right or anything this was my method: Training, normal speed, lv 9, control, on green greens. Shove the person as far into the blocks as possible, then dash grab them putting them into the block. Dthrow > roll > read distance.

Backward Roll Distances

Black = Snake's position
Brown = Character

Green = Shortest Distance.
Blue = Medium Distance.
Red = Furthest Distance.

Shortest Distance
G&W
Jiggs
Squirtle
Kirby
Olli
Rob
IC
Pit
TL

Medium Distance
Ness
Lucas
Sonic
Pika
Lucario
Ivy
Fox
Falco
MK
Samus
ZSS
Link
Shiek
Wario
Yoshi
Diddy
DK
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser

Long Distance
Marth
Ike
Snake
Wolf
CF
DDD
Zelda
Ganon

Troll Roll
Charizard (He doesnt' even get behind snake when snake stands in the same place.

Remember. This is the distance taken in comparison to the center of the unit's hurtbox. This means that someone as large as bowser, who rolls the medium distance, will have part of his hurtbox protruting into the short distance thus we can probalby treat him like a short roll character.

Tested all of the Long distance characters and by a little bit Zelda has the longest roll behind snake and that is still close enough that Snake can turn > ftilt (1st hit; attack misses) > ftilt (2nd hit; makes contact). This means that everyone that rolls behind Snake is still within enough range to get hit by a ftilt.

professor mgw said:

◇◇◇◇I just tested snake's Dthrow on dk. it seems more short than mid to me◇◇◇◇

Click to expand...

With people with such large hurt boxes like DK, bowser and DDD, it can be a little hazy which area they go in, so you have to round to the nearest area. My estimates were based on the center of the hurtbox.

Click to expand...

__crystal____ said:

Dthrow > Buffered Jab will work on this character only if they do not input a get up attack or a roll

DK
Wario
Bowser
Link
Rob
Kirby
MK
DDD
Wolf
Jiggs
Ike
G&W
Charizard
Ivy

I did find out however that a few people can be jabbed but only after a few frames. Ollimar is a good example, the buffered jab won't work, but wait a few frames then jab and it will work.

I'll try to see if Dthrow > buffered jab will stop all of the characters options.

Click to expand...

A couple of things. ZSS and Sonic were mentioned to be missing from spudzalot's data. If I dupilcated his method correctly than sonic rolls as far as the yellow line, and ZSS as far as the orange.

Minor error in the under 100% category. DDD is away-towards.

This is the testing results of 100%+ get-up attacks. I used FD, training, lv 9, control, 120%, 1/4 speed to determine this.


Towards - Away
DK
Mario
Kirby
Pikachu
Marth
Luigi
Diddy Kong
Zelda
Pit
MK
Charizard
Ike
SNake
Ness
Lucario
ICs (Both of them)
Peach
Bowser
Olimar
Jiggs
Lucas
ZSS

Away - Towards
Link
Fox
G&W
Shiek
Falco
Squirtle
Ivysaur
Sonic
Wolf
Yoshi
Wario
TL
DDD

Both Sides
Samus
Ganon
ROB
CF

In short, results are NOT any different from below 100% so the only thing I can conclude is that % does not effect the side on which a person's get-up attack will hit.

The speed at which they attack is different however.

IIRC it's slower.

Good to know that they attack in the same directions however.

does 'away' mean away from snake? or away from which they're facing towards?

Away from Snake.


Current data added, OP Updated. Adding COLORS to indicate things.

RED:
Towards - Away (This is bad)

Orange:
Both (This is sorta bad)
Away-Towards (have to move away to have them miss) (This is sorta bad if you forget to move)

GREEN:
Away-Towards (this is good for the most part)

good info gotta love that throw

Susa, since frame data will likely take a really long time to get and shift through compared to the behind rolls, I can do that for you.


DDD
Link
Fox
G&W
Shiek
Falco

The people you see mentioned above are people that have Away-Towards get-up attacks. I didn't mention at all if you had to move backwards a bit to make sure you avoid that "away" hit. All of those people you see above do not have "away" attacks that will hit snake when he is simply standing still.

In short, the only people you have to move backwards to avoid getting hit by an "away" hit is Squirtle and Yoshi.

Crystal.... please edit that to actually make sense....

Explain it better as ell...

Is that explained throughly enough now?

This is getting annoying having to speak in terms of away and towards hits, it gets confusing. x.x

So you only have to move away on is Squirtle and Yoshi?

I thought it was given that no away hits would hit Snake, except the 2 that were specifically mentioned that you have to walk away.

Also I'd prefer you do the rolls away rather then frame data. Unless you have a hacked wii and can do a frame-by-frame test.

Yes, squirtle and yoshi you have to walk backwards. Even though their hitbox lands out away from snake first,that hitbox extends far back enough to hit snake if he is standing right next to them. So pretty much for squirtle and yoshi you just walk backwards a bit and react to what they do. Shield the get up attack, stand and grab if they roll behind or dash towards them as they start to roll forward.
============
I was referring to the rolls anyway.

Just did all 39 characters and it's pretty sad the results. The differences in the rolling distances for the whole cast is not as dramatic as the differences of forward rolls between the cast. Even the ones that got furthest away where still pretty close.

It's really a difference between who which characters you can just turn around and grab vs those you have to turn around and take a step forward towards them before grabbing.

If you really think I should get actual distances I will have to find a better method to distinqush the actual distances traveled for the rolls backward. I'd rather just classify everyone into these categories: Turn around > grab; or turn around > walk forward > grab

Side note: Charizard has the worst backwards roll ever. He doesn't even get behind Snake while everyone else in the cast at least gets behind snake. I'm voting him right now as the easiest to tech chase since he also has such a short forward roll.

It depends how fast it is, because he attacks TOWARDS - away meaning you should shield.

If you can do it like the picture already posted but as the description there is:

1) Just grab (lol Charizard)
2) Turn around and grab
3) Turn around and take a step
4) Those who you can dash away and PIVOT grab (great for when near edges) - should be possible on those with slow short rolls

Alright, I'll retest everyone and categorize the backward rolls into those categories.

This is irritating <_< I forgot that once you are in a roll invicibility frames dont' last the whole roll, so pretty much the whole cast you can just turn and grab if you are quick enough to react you will grab them out of the roll. If you are a bit slow then some will roll a bit further back from the turn and grab range thus you have to walk forwards to grab them.

dub post by mistake

Don't worry about grabbing them from the roll. We just want to test the latest we can grab them. Because as long as we can grab them, it's not overly important...

It's only (generally) 4-10 frames of difference from invincibility frames and end frames AFAIK.

Take Ike for example. At the end of Ike's roll behind Snake,he will be to far away from snake's standing position for snake to just turn around and grab. Thus this means you have to turn and walk forward to grab ike at the end of the roll. But if you try to turn around and walk forward to early you will whiff the grab.

This is what I'll do then since just what you said as long as we grab them. I'll dthrow, have snake stand still, have them complety finish the roll, then try the variations of the turn > grab; turn > walk > grab and classify everyone into those.

That can give us what we need to do to regrab. But that won't let us know if we can pivot grab (due to that taking slightly longer, they may be able to finish the roll before we can do so...)

But do your distance testing first, we can worry about pivot grabbing them later when I find a way to test it (eg: having 2 people)

SuSa said:

That can give us what we need to do to regrab. But that won't let us know if we can pivot grab (due to that taking slightly longer, they may be able to finish the roll before we can do so...)

But do your distance testing first, we can worry about pivot grabbing them later when I find a way to test it (eg: having 2 people)

Click to expand...

It's just the whole timing thing that messes up the regrab on the backwards roll. I am confidenate that you can pivot grab the entire cast if you start the pivot grab before they do the roll. But when you factor in human error that will want to wait to which way the person will roll then pivot grabbing won't always work.

I got that method to test distance accurately. Shove someone against a wall, grab, then roll. I have to get some stuff done first, so the completed list will have to wait till tomorrow.

It turns out Tub was wrong.

ROB can't avoid the tech chase by rolling away. With that, I highly doubt Zamus can.

However I do think Snake can....

ROB has like.. a 6 or 7 frame window (small error on my part) in which you can grab him while he is rolling. Since Zamus rolls (just as far or not as far? I can't remember off the top of my head) she should be able to get grabbed as well.

I need to test Boost Grabbing Snake during his roll before I verdict it as escapable.

For once OS owned me :/ lol... I feel so stupid now.


Also if you try to pivot grab to fast you'll whiff on some chars. lol

This is definitely helpful. However if they attack away-towards and you don't react fast enough wouldn't you potentially eat a hit, where as towards-away you can shield the first one and have more time to grab?

I'm trying to think about this and I can't really decide if it is that much better. I'm going to have my brother get on DDD and practice tech chasing him.

I have the results on distance for the backward rolls. Should anyone feel I didnt' do this right or anything this was my method: Training, normal speed, lv 9, control, on green greens. Shove the person as far into the blocks as possible, then dash grab them putting them into the block. Dthrow > roll > read distance.

Backward Roll Distances



Black = Snake's position
Brown = Character

Green = Shortest Distance.
Blue = Medium Distance.
Red = Furthest Distance.

Shortest Distance
G&W
Jiggs
Squirtle
Kirby
Olli
Rob
IC
Pit
TL

Medium Distance
Ness
Lucas
Sonic
Pika
Lucario
Ivy
Fox
Falco
MK
Samus
ZSS
Link
Shiek
Wario
Yoshi
Diddy
DK
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser

Long Distance
Marth
Ike
Snake
Wolf
CF
DDD
Zelda
Ganon

Troll Roll
Charizard (He doesnt' even get behind snake when snake stands in the same place.

Remember. This is the distance taken in comparison to the center of the unit's hurtbox. This means that someone as large as bowser, who rolls the medium distance, will have part of his hurtbox protruting into the short distance thus we can probalby treat him like a short roll character.

Tested all of the Long distance characters and by a little bit Zelda has the longest roll behind snake and that is still close enough that Snake can turn > ftilt (1st hit; attack misses) > ftilt (2nd hit; makes contact). This means that everyone that rolls behind Snake is still within enough range to get hit by a ftilt.

professor mgw said:

◇◇◇◇I just tested snake's Dthrow on dk. it seems more short than mid to me◇◇◇◇

Click to expand...

With people with such large hurt boxes like DK, bowser and DDD, it can be a little hazy which area they go in, so you have to round to the nearest area. My estimates were based on the center of the hurtbox.

Vorguen said:

This is definitely helpful. However if they attack away-towards and you don't react fast enough wouldn't you potentially eat a hit, where as towards-away you can shield the first one and have more time to grab?

I'm trying to think about this and I can't really decide if it is that much better. I'm going to have my brother get on DDD and practice tech chasing him.

Click to expand...

Towards - Away hits you first. That means you MUST SHIELD to avoid getting hit by it. If you shield, they may roll away. Thus ruining the tech chase.

Away - Towards hits away first, giving you time to shield in time. You do not need to shield until you SEE THEM use their getup attack. This means that basically no matter what - you can get a regrab if you follow them correctly.

__crystal____ said:

I have the results on distance for the backward rolls. Should anyone feel I didnt' do this right or anything this was my method: Training, normal speed, lv 9, control, on green greens. Shove the person as far into the blocks as possible, then dash grab them putting them into the block. Dthrow > roll > read distance.

Backward Roll Distances

Black = Snake's position
Brown = Character

Green = Shortest Distance.
Blue = Medium Distance.
Red = Furthest Distance.

Shortest Distance
G&W
Jiggs
Squirtle
Kirby
Olli
Rob
IC
Pit
TL

Medium Distance
Ness
Lucas
Sonic
Pika
Lucario
Ivy
Fox
Falco
MK
Samus
ZSS
Link
Shiek
Wario
Yoshi
Diddy
DK
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser

Long Distance
Marth
Ike
Snake
Wolf
CF
DDD
Zelda
Ganon

Troll Roll
Charizard (He doesnt' even get behind snake when snake stands in the same place.

Remember. This is the distance taken in comparison to the center of the unit's hurtbox. This means that someone as large as bowser, who rolls the medium distance, will have part of his hurtbox protruting into the short distance thus we can probalby treat him like a short roll character.

Tested all of the Long distance characters and by a little bit Zelda has the longest roll behind snake and that is still close enough that Snake can turn > ftilt (1st hit; attack misses) > ftilt (2nd hit; makes contact). This means that everyone that rolls behind Snake is still within enough range to get hit by a ftilt.



With people with such large hurt boxes like DK, bowser and DDD, it can be a little difficult to determine which area they go in. My estimates were based on the center of the hurtbox.

Click to expand...

will edit this in soon.



Now we just need a list of people we can JAB after we dthrow them. (For people who like to sit there) because Jab > grab may work... need to see what makes it work sometimes and not others. (I think its how the Jab hits.. it has like 3 hitboxes that do different things)

All characters can roll away before we can U-tilt them right? As I have it understood it only works if they wait around. My question is if that's always the case?


Is there ever a situation where the character can't roll away fast enough before the U-tilt goes off? I doubt it, but might as well find out for sure. It would be really good to know, because it would be a guaranteed killing blow on that character.

Hm, for Yoshi and Squirtle, if Snake doesn't back up a little and shields the attack, can he still re-grab them?

Also, this topic assumes that people will always either roll backwards, roll forwards, or do a getting-up attack. What about just simply getting up?

I have to look at roll frame data after I gather it.

I think they get invincibility on frame 3-4 and it stops 4-5 frames before they get control again....


OP Updated.

Should I put it in order from Easiest > Hardest, Hardest > Easiest, or keep it Tier List order and simply rank everyone based on the following point system:

3 points for towards-away
2 points for both
1 point for away-towards

3 points for furthest away roll (I'll just include Snake in this)
2 points for medium away roll
1 point for short away roll

3 points for far towards roll
2 points for medium towards roll
1 point for short away roll (I'll also just include Charizard for this one)

Then add up their points and give them an /9 ranking. 1/9 = easy, 9/9 = hard



@Poltergust

If they simply get up, we can grab them. We're watching what they are doing intentively.

Also note this is for OFFLINE play... Online has input lag so tech chasing could be much harder.

Also if he POWERSHIELDS the attack, he can regrab them. I don't know if he just shields it... if they hit Snake far enough away then no, but I don't know.


Also I'll be doing testing for who we can Jab > Grab and what makes it guarenteed if ever...

I'll do the testing for the Jab if they stay still.

The ones that are close enough we may be able to hit with uptilt like short-mid rolls most likely I think. If you are fast enough, it might be possible to hit them after the invicility frames and during the roll still.

We should be able to jab getup attacks... almost certain those don't have invincibility frames....

Test the staying still part first though... won't take too long.

Also thanks for all your testing, have some bread. *hands you a loaf of bread*



So should I do the point system? I would be able to update the OP. (Also for chars we can jab. I'll test them (with frames) to see if we can Jab > GRAB.... pseudo infinite? (Dthrow > jab > grab > dthrow > jab > grab...)

Oh man that'd be sexy.

If you read it perfectly does Snake have a guaranteed regrab on Marth if he rolls away from you? Because it seems to me I get up-B'd through that quite a few times even when I boost grab.

I've proved Tub's testing wrong (and my own...) about not being able to regrab ROB and Zamus. We can.

Snake however, I need to retest...

Dthrow > buffered jab will work on these people when they stay do NOT input a get-up attack or roll command:

DK
Wario
Bowser
Link
Rob
Kirby
MK
DDD
Wolf
Jiggs
Ike
G&W
Charizard
Ivy

It doesn't work on:

Diddy
Yoshi
Peach
Luigi
Mario
Link
Ganon
TL
Pit
Olli
Fox
Falco
CF
Luc
Pika
Marth
Ness
Lucas
Sonic
Snake
Squirtle
ZSS
Zelda
Samus
Shiek

I did find out however that a few people can be jabbed but only after a few frames. Ollimar is a good example, the buffered jab won't work, but wait a few frames then jab and it will work.

I'll try to see if Dthrow > buffered jab will stop all of the characters options.

"Dthrow > buffered jab will work on these people when they stay do input a get-up attack or roll:"

So on those characters, no matter what they do it hits them?

I'm confused again. lol

SuSa said:

"Dthrow > buffered jab will work on these people when they stay do input a get-up attack or roll:"

So on those characters, no matter what they do it hits them?

I'm confused again. lol

Click to expand...

Fixed. "Dthrow > buffered jab will work on these people when they do NOT input a get-up attack or roll command"

Plus, Charizard is the easiet by far to tech chase. A single jab will stop any chance they have of just staying still. This means they have to roll or get-up attack right away. The backwards roll we already found out sux really bad. And the forward roll is within boost grab distance. So really just buffer the jab and react to what they do: roll or the jab hits.

The only bad part is that the get-up attack ruins this if you decide to jab. But this means that to tech chase charizard you have to deal with only 2 options :shield the get-up attack or jab and punish with something.

So how should I rank them?

I'll edit the OP with your information as well.

*off to my house*

I really have no idea how to rank them... :/

To me, it seems that those with the Dthrow > buffered jab might be the easiest to tech chase. You only have to decide between 2 options: jab or shield.

Jab forces a roll, or get up attack. The jab ends quickly enough for you to react better than dropping a shield. That means that those where the Dthrow > buffered Jab works and have bad rolls (like charizard), they would be the easiet to tech chase.

Let me see if the buffered jab beats out a get-up attack from the list taken above. (I need help with G&W, I cannot get the CPU to roll with him when I try to buffer a jab)

Uh... from what I've seen it may be possible that MK/DK (the only two I tested) will get hit by a buffered jab if they do a get-up attack. So you can jab once, regrab if they stand up, ftilt if they get hit by it, or tech read after the jab for a free second grab. If this is honestly real... then <3.

I think I just found something really useful after all this data we collected :D

From the testing with the CPU I have done on G&W it seems that it might be really easy and guranteed to punish G&W.

1) Single Buffered Jab from the Dthrow stops G&W from simply staying still, this means he has to get-up attack or roll.

2) If I am reading this correctly (meaning the CPU lv 9 does a get-up attack as quickly as possible and means this is true), the jab will end before G&W can perform the get-up attack. You'll see the away hit with the hammer coming before it actually hits you. So the jab ends, you see the hammer coming you Shield and grab. This might always punish the staying still and get-up attack options.

3) If the above is correct than that means G&W is stuck with rolling, and thankfully his rolls in either direction are slow and short distance for us to chase after him.

4) Put it altogether and we have a Tech-Chasing CG against G&W :D

IF THE JAB FINISHES BEFORE THE TIME G&W'S GET-UP ATTACK HITS YOU.

I'm stuck working with a CPU to activate the get-up attack as soon as possible, it looks promising so far, but I really need someone to help me test (or someone test) the truthfulness of this.

I'll try to see if the jab hits MK or DK before the get-up attack.

Crystal, do you have AIM?

Also we could test it on wifi with me mashing A as G&W. lol

I did MK/DK on control with snake's dthrow and both mashed A in 1/4 speed and MK/DK got inviciblity frames by the time the jab came out, so nope.

OP Updated.

Should I color code names based off ranking?

3-5 = Lime
6-7 = Orange
8-9 = Red