ROB Official Matchup Discussion: Ice Climbers

Well, I had intended to get back to choosing the character discussions by voting, but I didn't see any new votes this week in the thread, so... another executive decision. This time, Ice Climbers. Why? BECAUSE I SED SO... and I think Ruse asked for it or something, and Ive had no other requests.

So... as before:

ROB's Advantages:

ROB's Disadvantages:

Opponent's Advantages:

Opponent's Disadvantages:

What ROB should try to do:

How to do it:

How opponent can stop it:

What Opponent should be trying to do:

How they'll do it:

How ROB can stop it:

Counterpicks (what ROB should pick/ What opponent will pick {If you're someone contributing from another board})
Bans (what ROB should ban 1 via stage strike, 1 via personal ban)
Preferred Neutral (what ROB wants/ What opponent wants {If you're someone contributing from another board})

Ratio:

Plus, any anecdotes/explanations you wanna give.

GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO!

ROB's Advantages:
Dsmash is fast and can separate them
Projectile spam can go through desync walls and whatnot
Projectile spam gives ability to camp all day
Fast throws can lead to nana gimps, which result in gimps in general
Weird to CG for most IC's (obviously not good ones)

ROB's Disadvantages:
Blindspot underneath can lead to uair **** (IC uair is quite good)
Can die from 0% (instead of the usual 110%+)
Awesome recovery rendered ineffective

Opponent's Advantages:
Can juggle rather well
0-death CG's
Special moves are all worth using (unlike Robo copter)
Opponents make stupid mistakes trying not to get grabbed

Opponent's Disadvantages:
Very short grab range
Awful recovery
Nana AI is extremely stupid

What ROB should try to do:
Gimp Nana, then gimp Popo
Not get grabbed

How to do it:
A grab ->bthrow is often fast enough that ROB won't be interrupted, and at worst will only eat a smash attack. And really, an extra 10% or so won't make a difference as opposed to when you get grabbed by a good IC. Learn how the nana AI works, like how they'll use Ice Blocks (that goes at an angle that hits edgeguarders most of the time), when they'll jump, etc.
Also, when gimping them out of their up-b, know that Nana is invincible on the way up, but Popo is completely vulnerable.

How opponent can stop it:
Side-b can get INSANE vertical distance (by holding up while pressing B really quickly), and it does quite a bit of damage, too.

What Opponent should be trying to do:
Mindgame into a grab or just plain out juggle ****

How they'll do it:
Wait for you to do something dumb (like rolling) and then grab until you're dead
Squall hammer(side-b)'s last hit will pop ROB up at which point IC's uair becomes very annoying

How ROB can stop it:
Don't fear the grab that much. Well, obviously fear the 0-death so you don't get shieldgrabbed, but don't leave yourself open to stupid stuff just so you wouldn't get grabbed.
Make sure you shield the entirety of side-b, it lasts deceptively long and does shieldpoke

Counterpicks (what ROB should pick/ What opponent will pick {If you're someone contributing from another board})
Norfair - Lava can interrupt CG's
Brinstar - Same as above
Delphino - Transformations can interrupt CG's
Frigate - Same as above
RC - Save as above
Halberd - Claw/guns can interrupt CG's
Obviously some stages will work better than others, but I think CP stages are the only ones that give ROB an advantage.
Bans (what ROB should ban 1 via stage strike, 1 via personal ban)
Strike battlefield, the smaller space and platforms leads to more chances for grabs and negates our ability to camp while increasing their ability to ****

Preferred Neutral (what ROB wants/ What opponent wants {If you're someone contributing from another board})
FD - Camp all day
Ratio: 6:4 in ROB's favor, unless you face someone like Lain (he'll be here soon to add in input now) or Meep or any other pro IC's, at which point they say every MU is 50:50 for IC's, which by theoretically be true.

TL:DR - Ground game (tilts, smashes, etc) can be powershielded and lead to a CG, so it's rather dangerous without good spacing. Airgame is dangerous if IC is below ROB (like any other character, pretty much). Projectile wise ROB wins. Gimpwise ROB wins. Killing wise IC's win. Don't be dumb, play keep-away,

Lemme know if I missed something

^this

BTW Dull I think you gotta fix the link on the main page, I tried to go to this discussion, but one link took me to zelda and the other to luigi, so I had to manually find it...

ice climbers arent so bad, it may seem silly to take seriously, but the best advice of the match is that you dont get grabbed. lol

its pretty easy to abuse gyro and projectiles and ur ftilt to keep them away, which is what you want to do the whole match. also this would be an interesting matchup where sideB could actually be useful. maybe its just me, but i found it to be helpful, especially when the IC liked to shieldgrab. they dont expect the length of the roflcopter.

with rob's excellent air game, its also not too hard to gimp nana. and with rob's dsmash, its not too hard to separate them either. this matchup is definitely in rob's favor.

also, if the IC decides to upB to the ledge, if you do ROB's run-off-stage-dair-then-land-back-to-cancel (lol) the hitbox of the dair will take care of popo as he gets pulled in. its also pretty easy to do this if you drop a gyro.

if the IC decides to sideB recvoer, stay back a little and spam OR attack head on, you will usually trade hits, but either popo or nana will be in falling animation and they will not be able to recover if they arent near the ledge (you can also laser them). you could also choose to get hit from the sideB and treat it like Gaw's bair, DI through it and punish.

i also liked to charge upsmash as nana tries to get back to popo who is in the opposite side of the stage, easy kills.

if you get ice locked, simply SDI toward the IC or quickly off the ledge, watch out for hobbling tho.


careful of the ice breath though, it could thwart alot of your approaches, but you shouldnt be approaching anyway, you should be spacing and spamming

with the laser/gyro/dsmash/spaced fairs and bairs, this makes it very difficult for the IC.


you do have to watch out for the Uair juggles tho, be ready to look for those when the IC's combo from out of a sideB.


again, the main threat of IC's is their grabs, since alot of ROB's movesets deal with any other approaches they may have, the IC will then rely on reading you and mindgaming you, so thats on the player now. dont let up on the spacing and spam.


stages? i'd say places where you could have fun camping, like FD and such. and stages where the ground is uneven and where you can abuse their recovery. BUT be careful when playing on those fields! IC's are my secondaries so I know i actually like places like frigate and halberd, because I know i can spam and desynch my ice blocks on those fields and have them sliding back and forth like a wall, its quite fun. but since we're rob, we could just stay back, and spam gyros/lasers.

imo, this matchup is like...60-40/65-35 ROB (the 40/35 coming mainly from those grabs lol)

hope it helps xD


edit: sorry its so casual compared to the set up you wanted us to put our input in, i just copied it from the other thread and im too lazy to keep it in format

Bump because I refuse to create a new matchup discussion with only 3 replies.

>.>
<.<

I'll do it! > : (

I may have quit but I have very good experience vs ICs.



ROB's Advantages:
-Range
-Camp ability
-Edge Guarding
-Gimps the **** out of Nana

ROB's Disadvantages:
-Downward blind spot in the air, like usual.
-Getting infinited? Don't really have to worry about it though.

Opponent's Advantages:
-Can infinite us.
-Desynched UAirs raep us for super juggles.

Opponent's Disadvantages:
-We split them up too easily.
-Nana is a computer. Do you know how stupid easy it is to gimp a computer even when they're being protected?
-We're one of the few characters that can grab and throw before the player has time to react and counterhit with the other climber.
-Horrible Grab Range.

What ROB should try to do:
-Camp. Camp camp camp and camp.
-Gimp Nana

How to do it:
Gyro stops ice blocks if they try to counter camp, but mostly I just keep it charged because jabs do the same thing, as does a shield, as does a laser going through it....Basically ice blocks shouldn't be an issue at all.

ICs poor range grants them two viable approaches. Powershield approaches and desynched blizzard approaches. Desynched blizzards get resynched by a laser. SH away and laser means that even if you run out of stage, they can't approach with that. ICs have one viable approach now. Proper zoning can keep a single climber out of your grill all day. When they're together you should just focus on splitting them up and gimping Nana.

Gimping Nana is pretty easy for ROB. He has the tools to desynch and split the climbers. NAir, BAir, DSmash, DTilt (when it trips one), and F/BThrow are all very good moves to do this with since Nana can not DI (any form of it) and she acts 6 frames after Popo on any action (give it's the same as Melee. I know she reacts slower, but not sure if the 6 frames is accurate in Brawl). Combine the easy splitting with easy gimping thanks to FAirs, BAirs, and horribad computer AI and you're good to go.

ICs are only a threat when Nana is alive for ROB. ICs lose the two things they have going against ROB when she dies: easy juggles and 0-Deaths. After that it's like fighting a baby. Popo alone is easily gimped, lacks desynched approaches and juggles, and can't chaingrab.

How opponent can stop it:
-Predict everything and powershield everything. Really the only way.
-Squall Hammer is fairly useful but there's a lot of easy ways that ROB can get around this depending on where the ICs use it from.

What Opponent should be trying to do:
-Getting grabs in.
-Setting ROB up for desynched UAir juggles.

How they'll do it:
Power shield approaches are the only way ICs can get a grab in unless the ROB is ******** and tries to roll or land with a laggy attack/attacking their shield.

A lot of their moves set up for juggles, but their range is horrible.

How ROB can stop it:
Proper zoning is enough to keep ICs at bay and eventually split them up. Once split, gimp one or the other. Going solely for Nana is predictable. If the Popo is close to the edge, might as well gimp him if you think you can. Instant stock instead of just a Nana-less stock.

Yeah..just keep zoning, running, and camping. It's really not too hard.

Counterpicks:
-Japes (Camp city)
-Norfair (Lots of air time)
-Halberd (Big stage that's not FD, would only come here if FD wasn't available)

In order of what I would pick.

Bans:
Just find out what the IC likes most by watching him before hand. Most ICs have a secondary so I'd probably ban something relevant to their secondary. ROB just too good against ICs.

Preferred Neutral:
FD easy. We'll never get it though so aim for the biggest neutral you can.

Ratio:
70-30 ROB's favor. His zoning is just too good. Anyone that says they can get in via mindgames and powershielding should know that ROB can keep him out of range using the same mindgames and timing skills. Even skill means 70-30 ROB's favor. Would be higher if not for human error and that infinite.

lol, i don't think i would ever put a 70-30 against the ic's... that grab infinite has been done on me too many times to think the match is anywhere close to one sided with equal skill... they have a decent rushdown game (when properly desynched, not through powershielding) and it forces you either off the edge, or to attempt to combat in semi-close quarters

advantages for rob: he can retaliate against both of the IC's multi-hit moves (which are spammed for desynch purposes // rushdown) by SDI'ing up and immediately fair or bair'ing... this means if they're spacing the multi-hit move (sideb or downb) to grab you with the other climber, they will instead eat an attack to the face

the ic's have absolutely no good option for ledge-guarding you, and can't put the pressure on when you're on the ledge -> they absolutely cannot gimp (if you get spiked it's your own fault)

the dradle of doom! -- this has to be a huge saver for rob too... normally, ic's desynch and then throw a few iceblocks at you... this forces you to either (power)shield or jump over, both of which mean you have less options -> more predictable -> easier to grab... robs top, placed on the ground, eats up the blocks and stays there, so they are forced to approach over it -> more predictable -> easy to not get grabbed... also, if you see an iceblock or blizzard, you can throw the top in it, knowing they will collide, and you can use it to grab your top for easy glide-toss action

(i won't bother repeating info on separating, and subsequently gimping them... popo alone is a joke to rob)

[advantage for ic's]
when they're together, they're very hard to gimp... popo can save nana from a very long ways away (ambrose saved her when he was on the stage and she was falling to death last week on me) and when they're both out, the upb has a huge priority, and their sideb recovers high well (angled up fsmash if you predict it works wonders)

if I had to put a number ratio on the match, i'd say 60-40 for ROB... still fairly heavily in his favour, but the fact is, 3 mistakes and you're done, that's hard to keep up in a best of 5 match

buenob said:

lol, i don't think i would ever put a 70-30 against the ic's... that grab infinite has been done on me too many times to think the match is anywhere close to one sided with equal skill... they have a decent rushdown game (when properly desynched, not through powershielding) and it forces you either off the edge, or to attempt to combat in semi-close quarters

Click to expand...

Did you not realize how ****ed easy it is to resynch the ICs completely negating that?

buenob said:

lthe ic's have absolutely no good option for ledge-guarding you, and can't put the pressure on when you're on the ledge -> they absolutely cannot gimp (if you get spiked it's your own fault)

Click to expand...

And there you go. Even if they do manage to desynch approach you, even you say you're safe off stage which means we have a super easy place to camp where they can't reach us and they -don't- have anything annoying on stage other than the CG that will prevent you from getting a % lead. I went into why it's hard for them to CG us so I won't do that again.

buenob said:

l[advantage for ic's]
when they're together, they're very hard to gimp... popo can save nana from a very long ways away (ambrose saved her when he was on the stage and she was falling to death last week on me) and when they're both out, the upb has a huge priority, and their sideb recovers high well (angled up fsmash if you predict it works wonders)

Click to expand...

I knew I forgot something. At high percents I find ICs easier to gimp as a duo than a single climber. Once they're knocked off stage to a point where they -have- to use side or up-b, if you predict when they'll do it, you can shoot Nana and the hitstun will prevent her from aiding Popo so they both just die.

buenob said:

lif I had to put a number ratio on the match, i'd say 60-40 for ROB... still fairly heavily in his favour, but the fact is, 3 mistakes and you're done, that's hard to keep up in a best of 5 match

Click to expand...

1 mistake a stock doesn't necissarily mean a stock. It's all about who makes the first mistake. If ICs make the first mistake, Nana's dead and it's essentially a stock. If ROB makes the first mistake he gets CG'd. But, if ICs make the first mistake, you can make a mistake and not be ****ed for it. The ICs never have a situation as good as that against ROB.

I doubt Icies have ANY matchups worse than 6/4.

Really ROB has a lot of options on them, and I find B-air to be a wonder in this one. Everyone should know staying at the peak of your range and using the "GTFO" mentality on the icies is what you have to do.

I seriously believe this is 6:4 in ROB's favor to 5:5. I have always been as good with ROB and Snake and I find Snake easier for the Icies than I do ROB.

Hobbling ROB is actually pretty easy. Grab>jump back with nana>backthrow>Nana footstool>iceblock forcing ROB to get up in place... and we all know how bad ROB is with footstools and whatnot.

That being said, at least go 65-35 if not 70-30... 70-30 does not mean "ROB wins in all cases on every stage in any player's hands..." I don't know why peoples' limits are from 40-60:60-40. It's like the other 80% doesn't exist.

So Ice Climbers players like grabbing. A lot. In fact, they love it more than Diddy loves bananas, Sudai loves Ruse, and Jcaesar loves Brawl+. In this matchup, it's a shame because they won't actually be getting them because ROB can avoid them so well. I glanced at some of the other summaries and they pretty much nailed it since not much has changed... oh well, here we go again.

Gyro out spinning between you and them is best, much easier than jabbing or shielding. Use that time to fire lasers or "approach" (...the gyro) and double back with a Bair, maybe followed by ftilt. ROB is better vs ICs in the air (just not coming from above), and with a gyro on the ground, you should be winning with fairs and Bairs. This is when they're trying to approach. After all, they can't grab you in midair while you're bairing them.

But let's say you're playing 4 man free for alls on Wifi on WarioWare and some IC player manages to get to you. No worries, unless of course they have the invincibility going from winning one of the minigames.

Anyway, Dsmash wins. It just wins. The 6 frame difference is really noticeable when ROB's downsmash comes out in 4 =). Yea, you can grab if they shield prematurely because they're expecting it. It's a great way to separate them, and it knocks them into the air too, often in different directions to give you space. Glidetoss forward to Downsmash or even GT to throw works because ICs do NOT like being thrown back or separated after they finally approach, which is why they'll shield in the first place. Dsmash lasts through a sidestep, synched or desynched. Even ftilt is alright. Jab, meh, not so much. Gimping nana is fun, but just because they're a little separated doesn't mean you will always be able to do it, so sometimes attacking popo is better.

Stages? Jungle Japes lolwhut XD. I guess it doesn't really matter since all they need is one grab but to help you outcamp them go FD instead of smashville. Hobbling is done in place, as is bthrow, dthrow (chains) so pick stages that allow you to maximize camping time. Either way, ROB has the advantage and I think it's at least 65-35 ROB