~Snake's Attacks and KO percents~ // {Chart included :)}

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Jun 2, 2009

Here is a chart of Snake's most common killing attacks and there various percents on the entire cast.

READ BELOW THE CHART FOR MORE INFO!!!

Grenade KO percents has yet to be collected.

Bthrow data was collected by myself. I did it by going into training mode and bthrowing the character from the VERY EDGE of FD. The character thrown was on "control" and NO controller inputs were made, thus no DI or momentum canceling of any kind.

Jab KO data & interpration of data provided by:

Lawlmahbawls said:
Snake Jab Kill % (Only last hit)

Mario: 137
Luigi: 136
Peach: 132
Bowser: 148
DK: 146
Diddy: 132
Yoshi: 141
Wario: 141
Link: 138
Zelda: 128
Sheik: 123
Ganondorf: 142
Toon Link: 133
Samus: 144
Zero Suit Samus: 123
Pit: 133
Ice Climbers: 131
R.O.B.: 142
Kirby: 123
Meta Knight: 122
King Dedede: 145
Olimar: 126
Fox: 117
Falco: 123
Wolf: 126
Captain Falcon: 139
Pikachu: 122
Squirtle: 118
Ivysaur: 138
Charizard: 145
Lucario: 137
Jigglypuff: 117
Marth: 129
Ike: 141
Ness: 132
Lucas: 132
Mr. Game and Watch: 119
Snake: 146
Sonic: 133

All tested in the middle of Final Destination, CPU was set to control so there would be no DI. I'm rather iffy about some of the numbers (Olimar O.o) But it seems to be very accurate.

Utilt/Dtilt Data & interpritation of data provided by:

Farago said:
I composed this list a while ago, and I'm gonna post it here for people.
The most common stage I play online is Final Destination, and I created a list that shows the kill percentage of each character when Snake uses his Up tilt and Down tilt. Keep in mind that I made this in training mode with the opponent standing, so it can at times be off a few percent. But this list has come very handy to me when playing competitively.

--------Up tilt, Down tilt
Bowser 113, 142
Cpt Falc 114, 147
Charizard 109, 142
DK 118, 153
Diddy 102, 131
Falco 95, 126
Fox 90, 119
Ganandorf 112, 146
G&W 88, 116
Ice climber 97, 126
Ike 112, 145
Ivysaur 105, 137
Jiggly P. 82, 108
King DDD 127, 156
Kirby 90, 119
Link 110, 143
Lucas 99, 130
Luigi 101, 132
Lucario 103, 134
Mario 102, 133
Marth 100, 132
Metaknight 92, 120
Ness 100, 131
Olimar 94, 123
Peach 94, 124
Pikachu 94, 122
Pit 102, 133
Rob 106, 138
Samus 106, 138
Squirtle 86, 112
Shiek 93, 121
Snake 122, 156
Sonic 102, 132
Toon Link 99, 129
Wario 111, 141
Wolf 108, 141
Yoshi 107, 140
Zelda 93, 121
ZS Samus 94, 123

So if you ever face a Squirtle or a G&W at FD and he's at around 90%, UPTILT!

Dair Data & interpritation of data provided by:

mdmfromdaridge said:
Alright, so I just finished the testing for Snakes dair. I did it connecting with every hit from the very center of final destination so these should be accurate.

MK 84
Snake 93
D3 90
G&W 81
Falco 82
ROB 88
Marth 79
Wario 93
Lucario 86
DK 95
Diddy 80
Pikachu 84
IC 79
Kirby 84
Pit 81
Wolf 85
Toon Link 82
Olimar 84
Fox 82
Zelda 87
ZSS 85
Bowser 95
Luigi 85
Peach 80
Ike 87
Sheik 84
Lucas 83
Ness 81
Mario 86
Pokemon Trainer
Charizard 91
Ivysaur 86
Squirtle 82
Samus 92
Yoshi 91
Sonic 81
Jigglypuff 79
Ganondorf 90
Link 87
Captain Falcon 90

Well, there you go, hopefully this helps a bit. I even put it in tier order so you don't have to spend time looking for the ones that matter.

C4, Uncharged, and Charged Data & interpritation of data provided by:

SuSa said:
All data is now finished, I would like to thank (in no specific order):

Tub - All Charged Mine Data

Shadow Of Link - Uncharged Mine Data

cycon365 - C4 Data
&

Hinoarashi - Uncharged Mine Data

Note:
During testing I realized Stickied and Unstickied C4 (unless airborne opponent) does not change the grounded KO %.

Important Note:

These %'s are based off perfect conditions. Those conditions are:

Your C4/Mine is not STALE AT ALL

Your Opponent has horrid DI (or doesn't DI at all)

Your playing on Final Destination

You and your Opponent are Grounded (on the ground)

With that in mind, please note these will not always be exact for you. To get a better estimate, add roughly 20% to each of these %'s.

C4:
Mario 93%
Luigi 92%
Peach 86%
Bowser 104%
Donkey Kong 108%
Diddy Kong 91%
Yoshi 98%
Wario 99%
Link 99%
Zelda/Sheik 84%
Ganondorf 103%
Toon Link 90%
Samus 97%
Zero Suit Samus 85%
Pit 93%
Ice Climbers 88%
ROB 97%
Kirby 82%
Meta Knight 82%
King DeDeDe 112%
Olimar 86%
Fox 82%
Falco 88%
Wolf 99%
Captain Falcon 104%
Pikachu 85%
Squirtle 93%
Ivysaur 81%
Charizard 100%
Lucario 94%
Jigglypuff 75%
Marth 91%
Ike 102%
Ness 92%
Lucas 91%
Mr. G&W 80%
Snake 109%
Sonic 93%

Average KO % 95.351351135*

Uncharged Mine:
Mario 119%
Luigi 118%
Peach 109%
Bowser 131%
Donkey Kong 138%
Diddy Kong 116%
Yoshi 125%
Wario 126%
Link 130%
Zelda/Sheik 106%
Ganondorf 131%
Toon Link 115%
Samus 122%
Zero Suit Samus 109%
Pit 119%
Ice Climbers 112%
ROB 123%
Kirby 105%
Meta Knight 105%
King DeDeDe 147%
Olimar 110%
Fox 105%
Falco 114%
Wolf 128%
Captain Falcon 135%
Pikachu 110%
Squirtle 117%
Ivysaur 96%
Charizard 127%
Lucario 120%
Jigglypuff 95%
Marth 118%
Ike 133%
Ness 117%
Lucas 118%
Mr. G&W 105%
Snake 142%
Sonic 122%

Charged Mine:
Mario 79%
Luigi 78%
Peach 71%
Bowser 88%
Donkey Kong 94%
Diddy Kong 77%
Yoshi 84%
Wario 84%
Link 87%
Zelda/Sheik 70%
Ganon 89%
Toon Link 76%
Samus 81%
Zero Suit Samus 72%
Pit 79%
Ice Climbers 74%
ROB 82%
Kirby 69%
Meta Knight 69%
King DeDeDe 100%
Olimar 72%
Fox 68%
Falco 75%
Wolf 85%
Captain Falcon 91%
Pikachu 72%
Squirtle 84%
Ivysaur 62%
Charizard 85%
Lucario 79%
Jigglypuff 61%
Marth 78%
Ike 89%
Ness 78%
Lucas 76%
Mr. G&W 66%
Snake 96%
Sonic 79%

SuSa · Jun 2, 2009

I just noticed how drastically different the real DAIR KO %'s is.... even at those %'s near the EDGE of FD, proper DI adds a good 30-40% to those numbers.... Oo

But I suppose with this we can use our brains and factor in DI =p

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Jun 2, 2009

These percents are typically just the bare minimum. I know for Utilt I typically add on about 30% for guranteed KOs. Things like bthrow I might think is 40%-50% because it's unlikely you will be on the stage edge and factoring in DI will likely put it into that KO range for a guranteed KO. But if you include half good DI than percents at 30% is more realisitic.

The_Fool · Jun 2, 2009

I would like to see lists like this with perfect DI.
TBH i don't see much of a point to having the EXACT un-di'd kill %'s if you need to roughly add damage to the numbers to make an estimate of the kill % with di, which would not be exact. Although i guess it would be much harder to test for...

SuSa · Jun 2, 2009

Testing perfect DI for every single move is FAR more time consuming and rather useless because it's very rare everyone DI's everything perfectly.

Not to mention momentum cancelling and such

Tub · Jun 3, 2009

I think we should test with at least average DI, just to get a better feel on these numbers.

SamuraiPanda · Jun 3, 2009

SuSa said:
Testing perfect DI for every single move is FAR more time consuming and rather useless because it's very rare everyone DI's everything perfectly.

Not to mention momentum cancelling and such

Far more time consuming, but honestly, the only way that these could reflect workable data that helps in-game. The ideal way of presenting these is as a range, from the percent that they die with no DI to the percent that they die with perfect DI. Until then, these numbers unfortunately do not reflect anything that we can use to further our game while playing.

SuSa · Jun 3, 2009

SamuraiPanda said:
Far more time consuming, but honestly, the only way that these could reflect workable data that helps in-game. The ideal way of presenting these is as a range, from the percent that they die with no DI to the percent that they die with perfect DI. Until then, these numbers unfortunately do not reflect anything that we can use to further our game while playing.

You then have to take multiple scenario's and test on every stage if you want numbers that could actually help you in-game no matter what.

Are you center stage? near the ledge? on the complete other side of the stage?

And besides ASDI there is not a real sure-fire method to test properly, normal DI with every character.

Then if you want to get fancy:

ASDI
SDI
DI
Momentum Cancel
Any moves (Bucket) that altar momentum

Then you have to either take your testing or assume what you did was character.

Did I mention being frame-perfect for those last 2 steps is pretty vital? Did I also mention you'd have to find the best DI for every single move?

It's so time consuming it's almost not worth it. If you play the character enough you should have a feel when something KO's. These %'s are for a quick reference and are the bare-minimum a move should be killing at when fresh.

SamuraiPanda · Jun 3, 2009

Indeed, which is why this kind of chart (while quite interesting) has very limited usefulness to help in tournaments. Good ol' fashioned experience is superior to this method until someone actually goes through with the time consuming task of figuring out the numbers for all of these things.

Superspright · Jun 3, 2009

Your != You are.

Your = The possessive form of you.

Sorry, English major. Susa's grammar errors are pissing me off. Otherwise, nice chart.

Bladewing · Jun 3, 2009

SamuraiPanda said:
someone actually goes through with the time consuming task of figuring out the numbers for all of these things.

I'm looking at you m2k!!!!

for the most part, these numbers are what I expected (not factoring in DI).

Vorguen · Jun 3, 2009

Good data to look back to. I like knowing who I can kill at under 100% with U-tilt.

So how does Ganon die before Kirby with an U-tilt again?

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Jun 3, 2009

SamuraiPanda said:
Indeed, which is why this kind of chart (while quite interesting) has very limited usefulness to help in tournaments. Good ol' fashioned experience is superior to this method until someone actually goes through with the time consuming task of figuring out the numbers for all of these things.

This thread/chart was mostly used for organization purposes.

If you look at all the attacks from a realistic stand point, all the kill moves are situational anyway. No one will be trying to go for a kill with anything really except for Utilt, the one thing we typically try to save with. Everything else is a just a tool to try to damage the other person when the correct situation permits. C4 and Mine KO aren't saved for the KO it's used to damage and kill if you get in the percent. Even if data was gotten for everything with DI included it would be next to useless anyway if we cannot apply it when we always want it to happen.

Utilt, Bthrow, Fthrow and Jab KOs would be only KO able moves snake has that we can willing try to go for with relative ease (dtilt just sucks for killing, utilt way better). If you get a grab near the stage edge you can willing make the decision to Bthrow/Fthrow them offstage. Utilt you can willing decide when to use it in a game and save it till the percent range for KOing the character. Same thing with Jab KO, only bad thing about it is that some characters can avoid it when they see it coming.

So if we are going to be doing any testing with perfect DI, we should probably only spend our time on Utilt, it is afterall the only move we ever say to kill with. Everything else is too situational and could be staled.

Now if you want to apply the data to other stages that could be more tricky. You could either go and manually test, guess the percents from say Utilt percents on FD and apply to other stages, or you could do math to figure it out therotically (would require a ton of knowledge from brawl mechanics to do that though I bet).

For now, we have the soonest possible setting that Utilt would KO.

SuSa · Jun 3, 2009

SuSa said:
I just noticed how drastically different the real DAIR KO %'s is.... even at those %'s near the EDGE of FD, proper DI adds a good 30-40% to those numbers.... Oo

But I suppose with this we can use our brains and factor in DI =p

SuSa said:
Testing perfect DI for every single move is FAR more time consuming and rather useless because it's very rare everyone DI's everything perfectly.

Not to mention momentum cancelling and such

SuSa said:
You then have to take multiple scenario's and test on every stage if you want numbers that could actually help you in-game no matter what.

Are you center stage? near the ledge? on the complete other side of the stage?

And besides ASDI there is not a real sure-fire method to test properly, normal DI with every character.

Then if you want to get fancy:

ASDI
SDI
DI
Momentum Cancel
Any moves (Bucket) that altar momentum

Then you have to either take your testing or assume what you did was character.

Did I mention being frame-perfect for those last 2 steps is pretty vital? Did I also mention you'd have to find the best DI for every single move?

It's so time consuming it's almost not worth it. If you play the character enough you should have a feel when something KO's. These %'s are for a quick reference and are the bare-minimum a move should be killing at when fresh.

Superspright said:
Your != You are.

Your = The possessive form of you.

Sorry, English major. Susa's grammar errors are pissing me off. Otherwise, nice chart.

1 problem. I did not say your a single time.

You're = You are
Your = possessive form of you

Sorry, not an English major and failing English. I don't even expect me to type how I choose to type.

EDIT:
Ok, now I see it....

For my information post:

SuSa said:
Your C4/Mine is not STALE AT ALL
Your Opponent has horrid DI (or doesn't DI at all)
Your playing on Final Destination
You and your Opponent are Grounded (on the ground)

Your c4. As in, it is your c4. Possessive.
Your opponent. As in, it is your opponent. Possessive.
Your playing on Final Destination. I messed up here.

Really going to call me out on 1 little slip up?

Gr1mmy · Jun 4, 2009

Ganondorf seriously gets killed at 88% with utilt? I don't believe it.

The Filth · Jun 4, 2009

Gr1mmy said:
Ganondorf seriously gets killed at 88% with utilt? I don't believe it.

I'm trying this out as I type =]

Edit: 88% is false for a Ganon in the middle of FD on "Control"

2nd Edit: Seems it's 112%

Ahhh I see now, Ganon and Game + Watch are right next to each other, I think 88% is supposed to be G+W <3

SuSa · Jun 4, 2009

Ganon and G&W have utilt and dtilt KO %'s swapped by accident.

You can read the data below the chart to see the correct information.

SamuraiPanda · Jun 4, 2009

__crystal____ said:
This thread/chart was mostly used for organization purposes.

If you look at all the attacks from a realistic stand point, all the kill moves are situational anyway. No one will be trying to go for a kill with anything really except for Utilt,

What? I KO with a ton of different attacks. Nair/Bair/Uair, hell, even an occasional Fair can be used extremely effectively for the KO. I KO with aerials and C4 just as much as, if not more than, with Utilts.

IxxI · Jun 4, 2009

Fair punishes quite nicely for people who like to air dodge. =D

Eternal Yoshi · Jun 4, 2009

Training mode kill % have already been proven to conflict with VS mode kill %, as in training mode, moves kill later than they should.

BUT, the training mode kill % can be used to factor in basic DI. Nice list.

Terios the Hedgehog · Jun 4, 2009

People are always expecting the utilt so they'll try to land behind me. That's when you SHDair out of Shield. D= It's like...never depreciated.

I've been Utilting too soon lol. I blame inexperience. I was playing a GaW and had no idea how to handle him. It felt even rather than the OMGADVANTAGE I hear so much about.

He was a pretty **** good GaW though.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Jun 4, 2009

I'll fix the mistake when I get grenade KO percents. Should be tomorrow when I finish the half day of school.

SamuraiPanda said:
What? I KO with a ton of different attacks. Nair/Bair/Uair, hell, even an occasional Fair can be used extremely effectively for the KO. I KO with aerials and C4 just as much as, if not more than, with Utilts.

You missed my point entirely xD I'll use an example instead.

When do you tell yourself that this person is in KO range of the Dair, so I'll use this to kill them now. Or how about when the person can die from a mine, do you actually go and try to spend time to set up a mine and do everything you can to drive them into it for just a mine KO when another move could have done it instead earlier? Maybe you feel like getting the Fair KO so you'll be focusing on just using that to kill with.

You don't really decide to single out a single attack to kill with. If they happen to be in the correct situation you'll try to use the move. We use those moves when the situation permits, not when the percent range is there to kill with. Such as jiggs could be killed from a Dair at 90% right now, but it's much harder to kill with that, it would be better to only use that when the time permits when they make the mistake, for now it would be best to try to focus on killing with something more reliable: Utilt.

Utilt is the sole move any Snake will ever try to limit in use to make sure it's not decayed. We pay extra careful attention to the percent range at which Utilt will kill than any other method snake has to kill with.

So my main point was that if we really want to spend time on testing Perfect DI, Utilt should be the main focus. All the others aren't as important for perfect DI as they are more situational. Knowing basic percents and then applying them would be good enough.

SuSa · Jun 5, 2009

I can now DI/SDI/Momentum cancel frame by frame......meaning using 2 controllers is easier then ever now

Want me to work on:

1) Normal Trajectory (you can add a column to the chart and just put the measure?)
2) Range rather then 1 % (lowest % is what you have, then add the % I get with proper DI)

I can do that tomorrow (unless my Dad *****es at me like always....) and I'd rathers help out my main then finish Falcon data (which I got the more important things so that can wait anyways... )

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Jun 5, 2009

I say get percents for Utilt that will always gurantee a KO on even with the best DI possible. I feel that is the most important of the pefect DI percentages. Anything of the other moves you feel like doing would be up to you.

Trajectory would be good, I can add the column like you said. Plus, it would seem like a quick thing to do. I think I can even make this chart even better, pictures and colors like what other threads have done. I'll get grenade minimums later tomorrow.

SuSa · Jun 5, 2009

Jab: 45
Utilt: 105 (it goes behind snake)
Dtilt: 85~
Ftilt: 30~
Usmash: First - 85~ towards Snake, Mortar hits 70~ away from snake
Fsmash: 50~
Dsmash: Depends... roughly 70-90~ depending where opponent is when hit by it
Mine: Same as Dsmash
Grenade: Same as Dsmash
Uair: 85~
Nair: 45-50~ (was hard to test...)
Bair: 45~
Dair: 45~

Trajectories for Snake are mostly 30, 45, 50, and 85.

Now I'll go test the utilt KO %'s with proper DI. (If I don't know the best MC for a char. I'll skip them....)

Taken from center of FD, each character tested 3 times, sometimes with different moves. It seems the move actually doesn't make a big difference (except possibly G&W who can Bucket Brake...)

UTILT + DI
First 8:
Mario: 119%
Luigi: 117%
Peach: 110%
Bowser: 134%
DK: 141%

DiddY: 119%
Yoshi: 126%
Wario: 126%
Link: 139%
Zelda: 106%
Sheik: 110%
Ganon: 134%
TL: 117%
Samus: 122%
Zamus: 110%
Pit: 121%
Ice Climbers: 114%
ROB: 124%
Kirby: 109%
Meta Knight: 105%
King D3: 152% O_O

Olimar: 111%
Fox: 115%
Falco: 119%

SuSa · Jul 10, 2009

*cough* you alive?

o-Serin-o · Jul 19, 2009

SuSa said:
King D3: 152% O_O

It's actually ~136% if you don't ****ing stale it out. >.>

SuSa · Jul 19, 2009

o-Serin-o said:
It's actually ~136% if you don't ****ing stale it out. >.>

It was taken in training mode, where things are MORE POWERFUL by a small margin. (5% IIRC) so I should multiply it by .95 and he actually dies at 144%

I should do that to everyone, or have Velox do it. But this doesn't seem to be getting updated anytime soon.

Also I found a vertical height list of most stages somewhere, I need to find it again.

BF and FD are the same height from the floor. Just a nice tip.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Jul 20, 2009

SuSa said:
I should do that to everyone, or have Velox do it. But this doesn't seem to be getting updated anytime soon.

It's on my "to-do list" OK! lol

I had forgotten I had this. I've been doing some college research and yard work stuff that has taken up a lot of my time. Plus, I have been trying to do my daily amounts of SSBB, so I haven't exactly gotten around to updating some things. I just need to find the grenade KO list that I had lying around and finish off a few characters. Once that is done I can update this probably by the end of today. Along with the stage thingy. Although, I doubt it will last much longer due to how unhelpful people have been in contributing the tidbits they know as of late.

SuSa · Sep 18, 2009

So I herd this needed updating.

N.A.G.A.C.E · Sep 20, 2009

this is some solid data but why is u-air, b-air, and nair not in the chart? i have killed a good deal with all 3 of these moves.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Sep 21, 2009

For the simple reason that these are all aerials attacks you have mentioned.

Aerials will kill at varying percent ranges depending where in the air you land them. Ground attacks being stage bound are easier to assign KO values too. Ftilt will not be killing at 20% on FD while Bair can if you hit them close enough to the edge.

N.A.G.A.C.E · Sep 21, 2009

i thought that was the reason just was checking

Sake-Hato · Apr 15, 2010

sorry to bump but this isnt including if the oppent DI's right?

6Mizu · Apr 15, 2010

Epic bump is epic.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Apr 15, 2010

Sake-Hato said:
sorry to bump but this isnt including if the oppent DI's right?

I read below the chart like it said and found this:

was on "control" and NO controller inputs were made, thus no DI or momentum canceling of any kind.

I assume that means there was no DI.

6Mizu said:
Epic bump is epic.

Necro threads deverse to be necro. But it sux Peach dies so low from Utilt. 96%

Sake-Hato · Apr 16, 2010

Oh sorry i actualy missed that X_X i will read slower next time ><

Mew2King · Apr 16, 2010

what's going to make you mad is my over 2 year old discovery

that training mode is 5% different than vs mode

Jiggs up throw does 10.5% in vs mode and 10.00% in training mode

DDD's up tilt kills marth at 94% in vs mode and 100% in training mode

etc.

at least the proportions are accurate for comparisons which is good though

Eternal Yoshi · Apr 17, 2010

THANK YOU someone else knows that in training mode, the moves behave like they are 2 3 values below fresh.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Apr 17, 2010

Correct, no DI was ever accounted for in this chart.

Mew2King said:
what's going to make you mad is my over 2 year old discovery

that training mode is 5% different than vs mode

Jiggs up throw does 10.5% in vs mode and 10.00% in training mode

DDD's up tilt kills marth at 94% in vs mode and 100% in training mode

etc.

at least the proportions are accurate for comparisons which is good though

What will make others even more mad is this discovery. When I factored in DI/MC for a number of characters in VS mode using Snake's Utilt, I actually found that the Training Mode data with no DI/MC is very similar to Vs Mode with DI/MC. The differences between actual percents lived and this data fell within a 5% tolerence range. So, I would say this data is still fairly accurate for determining KO percents in actual matches. You simply need to factor in about an extra 5% and it should mimic actual KO percents in a match for Utilt.

Now, the rest of them do not match this trend, but really, Utilt is the only thing you would ever pay attention to for percents before actually killing. Ftilt, Nades, C4 would be so stale that they would never be fresh and it would be impossible to gauge when they would kill. Look at snake, he can surivive his own grenade blast that is really stale up to like 250% compared to a fresh one that might kill at 150%. That's a huge difference in range.

Personally, I feel this chart is pointless. After you play enough, you get a feel for when you can kill people or not rather than look at data.

Eternal Yoshi said:
THANK YOU someone else knows that in training mode, the moves behave like they are 2 3 values below fresh.

I did not know about this until shortly after starting this little chart. Which I started like what? A year ago now?

~Snake's Attacks and KO percents~ // {Chart included :)}

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