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Yoshi v. Bowser
- Thread starter Shiri
- Start date
Poltergust
Smash Master
We actually have a really good Bowser player in FL. His name is Serg. =O
Let's see... any grab-based attacks work well against Bowser since good Bowsers shield most of the time. He also has a terrible spot-dodge, too. Just be careful of putting shield-pressure.
Egg Lay works wonders in this match-up. I'm able to land it quite often.
Let's see... any grab-based attacks work well against Bowser since good Bowsers shield most of the time. He also has a terrible spot-dodge, too. Just be careful of putting shield-pressure.
Egg Lay works wonders in this match-up. I'm able to land it quite often.
Speaking of grabs......I find that Bowser can land grabs pretty easily. Maybe it's me, I dunno, but both characters seem to be able to grab each other pretty well and while Bowser has more guaranteed damage out of a grab release or throw, Yoshi has some variable damage, but that damage can get pretty high up there if circumstances turn out right.
Overall very fun matchup. Yoshi applies lots of shield pressure and Bowser handles it very well and can retaliate with good enough timing.
Poltergust
Smash Master
Yes, Bowser has good grab range (he's no King Dedede or DK, but it's good), but I think that Yoshi is like one of the few characters not affected by his grab-release shenanigans. He's better off throwing Yoshi. o_O
We can chain-grab him, though. Fun fun fun!
We can chain-grab him, though. Fun fun fun!
Poltergust
Smash Master
Apparently, Yoshi can get f-aired in an aerial release or re-grabbed in a ground-release, but I'm not so sure that these are true. Yoshi seems to travel too far for me. Can someone test it?
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
I play a bit of Bowser for fun, and I'd like to say I'm decent with him. I can test those grab releases out if I can get someone else to help.
For the match up, I'm pretty sure Bowser loves his ftilt. It's got good priority and it's pretty quick, and it can be angled to intercept some aerial approaches. Utilt has decent strength and I've managed to kill people at 120ish with it? Can't remember too well now. His jab is good and his firebreath is great for racking up damage, especially as an edgeguard. Lucky enough, we have our Double Jump Armor to get past it.
He's pretty weak when falling from the air. Dair isn't too great and nair doesn't have much range, so I think our uair can beat it out. His Down B is pretty slow too, so it shouldn't be much of a problem. His fair has good knock back as does bair, and uair is a good killing move. It's pretty slow though, so not much problem there.
Bowser loves his platform camping. It makes it harder to approach from the air and it allows him to ftilt nearly all approaches away. Getting him out of there is a pretty tough job, so you'll take a lot of damage if you don't get him out quickly.
I've never actually played against a Bowser before, so I'm not really sure what I'd do. I'd suppose getting him in the air is a good choice because he's weak from below. I figure gimping him wouldn't be too hard either.
For the match up, I'm pretty sure Bowser loves his ftilt. It's got good priority and it's pretty quick, and it can be angled to intercept some aerial approaches. Utilt has decent strength and I've managed to kill people at 120ish with it? Can't remember too well now. His jab is good and his firebreath is great for racking up damage, especially as an edgeguard. Lucky enough, we have our Double Jump Armor to get past it.
He's pretty weak when falling from the air. Dair isn't too great and nair doesn't have much range, so I think our uair can beat it out. His Down B is pretty slow too, so it shouldn't be much of a problem. His fair has good knock back as does bair, and uair is a good killing move. It's pretty slow though, so not much problem there.
Bowser loves his platform camping. It makes it harder to approach from the air and it allows him to ftilt nearly all approaches away. Getting him out of there is a pretty tough job, so you'll take a lot of damage if you don't get him out quickly.
I've never actually played against a Bowser before, so I'm not really sure what I'd do. I'd suppose getting him in the air is a good choice because he's weak from below. I figure gimping him wouldn't be too hard either.
Yosheon
Smash Cadet
Tossing eggs and using egg lay are good things to use against Bowser, and we can chaingrab him easily. We just have to be a little careful of his Koopa Klaw (or whatever his side-b is) since he can grab us out of our flutter jump while we're recovering and perform a Bowsercide.
Also, our jabs can cancel out his d-smash.
Also, our jabs can cancel out his d-smash.
Frown
poekmon
Bowser is great when it comes to interrupting your double jump with a poweful aerial while off the stage. I'd say slight advantage for Bowser.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
But we can always just air dodge through that. His aerials aren't very surprising or hard to see coming.
Frown
poekmon
Not very unpredicatble, no, but his fair is too good.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
It doesn't last too long either, so you can do a DJAD to get through any edgeguard attempt.
Or, you could recover high. The only move that knocks you at an angle where you'd be recovering low is dtilt, and that doesn't hit too often. I think his jab has more range than that move.
yoshi if you ask me has the advan. his egg throw is crazy fast and can hit the target easily when dropping from the ledge, doing a tiny jump, and wait for when yoshis head is right above the stage, then egg throw. this works really good against bowser cuz he doesnt have a lot to say about others hanging on the ledge, he cant jump if his life was depending on it, and he is really really slow
D
Deleted member
Guest
Bowser can indeed regrab on release, which does WAY more than yoshis CG. Bowser also ***** bair pretty bad.
We wreck his recovery tho.
We wreck his recovery tho.
Poltergust
Smash Master
What about air-releases?
EDIT: Apparently, if we don't try to mash our way out we'll always be air-released. Is that f-air follow-up garaunteed?
EDIT: Apparently, if we don't try to mash our way out we'll always be air-released. Is that f-air follow-up garaunteed?
D
Deleted member
Guest
Yep.
If you didnt know, bowser has the best grab releases in the game.
If you didnt know, bowser has the best grab releases in the game.
Poltergust
Smash Master
Of course I knew that. Everyone does (I hope). >_>
It's just that when Serg tried it on me he was never able to hit it because I was able to move away each time. It could be possible that he never tried grab-releasing a Yoshi before, though.
It's just that when Serg tried it on me he was never able to hit it because I was able to move away each time. It could be possible that he never tried grab-releasing a Yoshi before, though.
You guys realize how easy it is to force an air release? Bowser's pummel sucks. It's slow. Just mash like crazy in between pummels. You have enough time where, after his first pummel, if you start mashing like crazy, you can pretty much always force an air release since you'll break out before his second pummel starts. It just takes a lot of effort, but with a lot of effort, it's impossible for Bowser to force a ground release. Bowser is one of my secondaries, and I know how impossible it is to grab release anyone when they know this.
Yes, Yoshi can get faired out of air release. But fair is only like 5% more damage than if Bowser just threw you instead. Hardly anything that effects the matchup. Also, I believe you may be able to use Double Jump sex kick and retaliate using your super armor. (If he doesn't time it perfectly, you'll start jumping before his fair hits you)
As for the matchup, I think it's 60-40 Yoshi. Dair is really against Bowser, and he doesn't have any quick options out of shield other than Up B, so you don't have to worry about him release his shield into anything very often. Usually he'll Up b out of shield after you hit his shield, but a lot of egg lay will make him scared to rely on waiting for you to hit his shield. He's not that hard to camp with eggs. I find this matchup not too bad at all, though I've only played a couple of Bowsers so far with Yoshi. It's just that Bowser doesn't really have a real approach, his only approach is waiting for you to shield and forward B'ing you in the air. Yoshi is really good at fighting people who can't approach with ETS, ECE, pivot grab, etc. Then when he does get grabbed he gets chaingrabbed into a pretty much unavoidable down air.
I just know the matchup both ways though since I use Bowser too. If Bowser gets a hit on Yoshi he can start doing a lot of damage, but Yoshi is incredibly masterful at preventing Bowser from getting a hit in. Down air is suppperr good against his recovery. 60-40 in Yo's favor.
bigman40
Smash Master
Yoshi's Fair > Bowser's Fair lololol
Bair, Dair and Egg Spam makes things difficult for Bowser. Bair can probably be punished, though. Bowser is quite a large character and Pivot Grabs are too much for him at times. After Pivot Grabs, we procede from there.
I don't know much about this matchup, but I do know good Bowser's are pretty d@mn scary at times with their Uair, FSmash, and Grab-Release mindgames they seem to pull off.
Maybe 55:50? Our favour?
I don't know for sure, but I don't see this being in Bowser's favour by a considerable amount.
I don't know much about this matchup, but I do know good Bowser's are pretty d@mn scary at times with their Uair, FSmash, and Grab-Release mindgames they seem to pull off.
Maybe 55:50? Our favour?
I don't know for sure, but I don't see this being in Bowser's favour by a considerable amount.
Poltergust
Smash Master
Yoshi shouldn't ever fall into a u-air or f-smash. Grab-releases, yes, but not those two.
And I'm positive this match-up is in Yoshi's advantage. Maybe 60:40 at the most. Yoshi's many grab-based attacks are too much for Bowser to handle, not to mention that he's huge and easy to combo, and we greatly out-camp him. We beat him in the air and off-stage, and he has bad approach options on the ground. And he's chain-grabbable.
The problem for Yoshi is that he's humongous and hard to KO. However, Yoshi racks up a lot of damage with his grabs and d-air, and Bowser is easier to gimp than most characters.
Bowser's primary kill move on Yoshi would most likely be his f-air. His smashes are too slow, and his tilts can't really KO Yoshi until around 130%.
And I'm positive this match-up is in Yoshi's advantage. Maybe 60:40 at the most. Yoshi's many grab-based attacks are too much for Bowser to handle, not to mention that he's huge and easy to combo, and we greatly out-camp him. We beat him in the air and off-stage, and he has bad approach options on the ground. And he's chain-grabbable.
The problem for Yoshi is that he's humongous and hard to KO. However, Yoshi racks up a lot of damage with his grabs and d-air, and Bowser is easier to gimp than most characters.
Bowser's primary kill move on Yoshi would most likely be his f-air. His smashes are too slow, and his tilts can't really KO Yoshi until around 130%.
Metatitan
Smash Master
Uhm thats like saying you should never fall into a donkey punch but we all know that happens anyways. His uair and f smash are two of his best KO moves, they eat your airdodges nom nom nom. His up tilt is also quite deadly
Poltergust
Smash Master
Uh, unlike those two moves, the Donkey Punch is actually fast AND has super-armor. U-air and f-smash are way too slow to be useful against Yoshi.
And I was referring to his u-tilt when I was talking about the kill percentage. Yay, DI.
And I was referring to his u-tilt when I was talking about the kill percentage. Yay, DI.
Metatitan
Smash Master
I'm sorry but if you think bowser's uair or f smash is useless on us you are really really mistaken.
Poltergust
Smash Master
How so? I'd like to know when Yoshi is vulnerable to those moves and maybe we can avoid those situations.
Metatitan
Smash Master
During your airdodge of course. Both attacks are built to destroy airdodges and since 90% of yoshi mains ALWAYS come back to the stage via double jump airdodge, I don't see how it CAN'T be effective against yoshi.
Poltergust
Smash Master
Why wouldn't you go for the ledge, then? Just Egg Toss your way to the ledge and come up with a rising d-air -> n-air, rising b-air, rising Egg Lay, etc.
Yoshi should NEVER get hit by those moves. They are slow on start-up and very easy to avoid. Even on WI-FI I don't get hit by these moves.
Yoshi should NEVER get hit by those moves. They are slow on start-up and very easy to avoid. Even on WI-FI I don't get hit by these moves.
Metatitan
Smash Master
Stop assuming stuff on matchups that you don't know. The only moves I can think of that a player should not get hit by unless by complete surprise are rollout and sing.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
The only times I hit with an Fsmash and uair is when the player screws up. The two moves you need to trick the opponent into, but with Yoshi's mobility you should never get hit by these attacks.
I just played Furbs Yoshi with my Bowser OFFLINE, I still think it's 60-40 Yoshi. bowser can up air yoshi by waiting for an air dodge or do it through yoshi's down air so it is a threat, but yoshi can avoid it by just recovering from the sides. Also bowser can't seem to regrab after yoshi ground breaks. for some reason yoshi breaks really far compared to other characters. I don't understand why. Also fair on release grab is incredibly hard to time.
bigman40
Smash Master
what makes Fsmash that much different? It's a useless move unless it's guaranteed from the CG. Bower's Uair has some threats, but it ain't that amazing to make it useful.
Poltergust
Smash Master
Metatitan, we have an awesome Bowser player down here in FL (Serg) and I've played against him in friendlies and MM's. I know quite a lot about this match-up and what is and isn't a good move to use against Yoshi, and vice versa.
F-smash and u-air are almost worthless. They have as much chance of hitting as Ike's f-smash and King Dedede's Jet Hammer.
EDIT: @Edrees: Hm, I was sure that was the case. I don't think that everything on the Bowser grab-release thread is 100% accurate.
F-smash and u-air are almost worthless. They have as much chance of hitting as Ike's f-smash and King Dedede's Jet Hammer.
EDIT: @Edrees: Hm, I was sure that was the case. I don't think that everything on the Bowser grab-release thread is 100% accurate.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Yes, Bowser can indeed chaingrab Yoshi and end it with an Fair. Yoshi isn't that vulnerable to Bowser's grab shenanigans, but they still work. I usually don't do it though, since it's usually not worth the risk to grab release someone like Yoshi, since his release animation is so weird. Personally, I just throw him and follow up. The Fair isn't worth it, since it's so weak and doesn't even kill. (provided you know how to DI, which I assume you do)
I used to play this matchup a lot with FingerP@ss, so I know how dumb it can be. Simply put, you can camp him, force an approach, and your chaingrab wrecks him. Bowser hits like a truck though, and his ground game is superior to yours. Your air game beats his, but then again, so does everyone's.
Don't rush his shield, otherwise you'll be hit with a Fortress OoS. (comes out on frame 6, invincibility on frames 1-5) This is the main reason why you can't get overly aggro against Bowser, since the Fortress will just eat up any attack you throw at it. Bowser can actually Fortress OoS a Nado. That's how good it is.
I used to play this matchup a lot with FingerP@ss, so I know how dumb it can be. Simply put, you can camp him, force an approach, and your chaingrab wrecks him. Bowser hits like a truck though, and his ground game is superior to yours. Your air game beats his, but then again, so does everyone's.
Don't rush his shield, otherwise you'll be hit with a Fortress OoS. (comes out on frame 6, invincibility on frames 1-5) This is the main reason why you can't get overly aggro against Bowser, since the Fortress will just eat up any attack you throw at it. Bowser can actually Fortress OoS a Nado. That's how good it is.
Uair eats up air dodges. Granted, it's not a move that you'll consistently score a kill with, but it's not useless at all. It also has huge hitbox and tends to beat out everything. Be wary of it, that's all.
Fsmash is not useless at all either. Fsmash is a move that is apparently bad, but Bowser's Fsmash has a huge drawkback animation. The drawback animation for Bowser's Fsmash is even larger then Yoshi's, and it can be used to dodge attacks and counterattack. Yes, it sounds silly, and most people are thinking "I won't fall for that!" But it works. One good read, and Bowser's Fsmash hits. It's not a matter of seeing the startup animation and avoiding the attack, it's a matter of Bowser using it as a counter. Because in that scenario, his Fsmash becomes extremely less telegraphed and far more likely to hit with the sweetspot. The drawback dodges the attack, and then you get smacked. Or as GimpyFish said a long itme ago...
GimpyFish said:
Metatitan
Smash Master
The only bowser players I've heard that are good are Sliq, Vex, and NL. Now I'm sure there are more but if he does not know how to use f smash or uair he can't be very good. That's like saying a yoshi main doesn't know how to use f smash, while its not as good as say out up smash, it is important to know how to use.
Poltergust
Smash Master
Yes, I know of Bowser's f-smash pulling him back a little, although the problem with this is that if Yoshi is right next to him the attack will pass right over him. Whoosh.
I'm not saying that u-air and f-smash are useless. I'm saying that they are ALMOST useless. They have certain properties that keep them from being unviable moves, but they are still really bad.
I'm not saying that u-air and f-smash are useless. I'm saying that they are ALMOST useless. They have certain properties that keep them from being unviable moves, but they are still really bad.
MrEh
Smash Hero
But if you're right next to Bowser, that would imply that you are not spacing.Yes, I know of Bowser's f-smash pulling him back a little, although the problem with this is that if Yoshi is right next to him the attack will pass right over him. Whoosh.
Bowser has his Fortress OoS, and that pretty much forces you to space.
Uair? Maybe.
Fsmash? Hell no.
VSC.D-Torr
Smash Hero
LOLGimpyfish said:
10DTiers
MrEh
Smash Hero
Bowser has the worst spot dodge in the game. lol
Poltergust
Smash Master
Bowser's Fortress is actually not really good in this match-up. Yes, Bowser has one of the best (or possibly THE best) OOS games, but he can't contend with Yoshi's grabs and Egg Lay. Especially ones that are spaced outside of Bowser's f-smash range.
Bowser's major 1-up against Yoshi is his tilts and jab. His tilts are awesome and out-range a lot of Yoshi's moves, and Bowser should abuse the heck out of them (save your u-tilt for killing, though).
Bowser's major 1-up against Yoshi is his tilts and jab. His tilts are awesome and out-range a lot of Yoshi's moves, and Bowser should abuse the heck out of them (save your u-tilt for killing, though).
bigman40
Smash Master
Okay, saying that OoS Fortress isn't that good is being crazy. It's got invunerable frames on startup and it ***** approaches that aren't used smart at all.