Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!

thrillagorilla · Jun 21, 2009

Splice said:
I don't know about this air-stalling business.

Air-stalling = staying offstage longer than your opponent can. It puts pressure on you to back off, giving us a chance at getting back on the stage. Nothing too impressive, but effective.

To Thrilla
I used to play online but my GaW relies on spacing too much its not fun anymore... did i say stupid stuff?

Not "stupid", just online-centric. If you play the game with a bare minimum of 6 frames of lag (which is the smallest amount possible on-line) you start to create habits that are bad offline. Stating that it is easy to land Kirby's down-b is an indication of one such habit. I noticed a few, so I just made mention. No worries.

Also, i dont Vs Kirby with GaW. I second him(outside of tournaments), and if you mean the downb, I dont find it amazingly hard to hit with. Also, i think sideb outranges our fair, and if you can see one coming, use it.

See above statement for down-b. If your opponents are getting hit by it, there is a pretty good chance that they don't know the Kirby MU well enough to watch out for it. As for fair, it would be safer to use bair. They have comparable ranges, and bair comes out on frame six, so you can beat G&W to the punch. However, if the opportunity arises by all means use side-b if it is relatively safe to do so.

Thats why i said it. Sorry if i am wrong, its much more likely than you being wrong haha. I dont know a lot about the technical side of things, i just wanted to give you something to work with.

And you have. Thank you.

And about landing smash moves, there are numerous set-ups. But im not going to argue about it, GaW is known to be predictable and your right about that.

I'd like to know a few of those set-ups if you wouldn't mind mentioning them. The only one I'm aware of off hand is tech chasing a d-throw, which can be shielded if I'm not mistaken.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, i guess because i land downb sometimes i assume its viable.

Huzzah. Just a reminder that i just meant to point out GaWs capabilities more than anything else.

lol. Yeah, its best not to make assumptions about the other character, which is why we appreciate you coming to enlighten us about your character. Anything else you would like to add?

@everyone else: I made it a point to get a bit of G&W practice today. G&W's bair is probably the biggest issue in this MU (though its not the MU in a nutshell, lol). That being said, I agree with Viper on the ratio for this one. I'd be more inclined for 45-55 G&W personally.

A2ZOMG · Jun 21, 2009

Ok, vs G&W, we already beat this one to death...it's pretty much 6/4 G&W at least. It's probably a pretty hard counter overall, so I guess you're gonna ask why?

There really is little Kirby can do in this matchup...he doesn't have a real way to punish G&W's B-air, and D-tilt also counters most of Kirby's ground/air game. G&W also has so much with which he can punish Kirby when Kirby goes offstage, it's pretty sad. Kirby is almost guaranteed to take a hit when he's recovering, and due to his light weight and G&W's high power, this is bad news for Kirby. He will get edgeguard KOed a lot in this matchup. There is one thing you can do to help lower this...NEVER EVER EVER RECOVER LOW VS G&W. YOU WILL GET D-AIRED AND IT WILL SUCK. But anyhow, recovering against him is very hard. He can jump out very far easily, his F-air is a safe move with great priority that kos offstage easily, and his D-air denies all form of low recovery.

So basically, G&W pretty much walls Kirby, Kirby doesn't have a real way to camp back since none of his aerials minus B-air are that good, and then he has a MASSIVE advantage offstage. Kirby's floatiness also does him no favors when being juggled by G&W.

I'd say 65/35 personally...You'll have a chance at getting him if you space better than he does and can predict a ledgejump to KO him while he's edgecamping. Otherwise...it's a pretty stupid matchup that is pretty noticeably in G&W's favor.

Splice · Jun 21, 2009

@ Thrilla
If you really want to see GaWs smash move setups, there is a thread on it in the GaW boards.
Here is the link. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190917

Also, Bair makes a big difference here. How good are kirbys OoS options?
Depending on that, its probably a 60:40 if you dont have very good ones.

Thats pretty much absolutely ALL i have to say. I'll leave it to you guys now.

Kewkky · Jun 21, 2009

Splice said:
Also, Bair makes a big difference here. How good are kirbys OoS options?
Depending on that, its probably a 60:40 if you dont have very good ones.

They are great, in all seriousness. Bair (for killing/zoning), utilt (for setups), ftilt (to get you away w/o staling bair) and grabs (obviously) all pretty much cover every attack need.

Triple R · Jun 21, 2009

I'm really surprised that no one has mentioned GaW's nair. When I GaW is facing away from you I wouldn't even approach until they turn around. GaW's nair has so much priority and range to hit that can give Kirby trouble. Am I exaggerating? I don't think I am, but let me know

:mad: · Jun 21, 2009

Triple R said:
I'm really surprised that no one has mentioned GaW's nair. When I GaW is facing away from you I wouldn't even approach until they turn around. GaW's nair has so much priority and range to hit that can give Kirby trouble. Am I exaggerating? I don't think I am, but let me know

Nair does not outrange us. Fsmash and Bair go through it unless you don't space properly.

A1lion835 · Jun 21, 2009

Though if you fail to SDI the nair at low %'s, he can chain another one.

t!MmY · Jun 21, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
I'd say 65/35 personally...You'll have a chance at getting him if you space better than he does and can predict a ledgejump to KO him while he's edgecamping. Otherwise...it's a pretty stupid matchup that is pretty noticeably in G&W's favor.

I think A2ZOMG covers all the bases. Kirby has very little to work with that G&W doesn't do better. Kirby's only saving grace is the fact that he can KO G&W at exceptionally low percents, but since F-smash should be hard to land it relies on outsmarting your opponent, which isn't taken into account for match-up discussions.

N-air only gives Kirby problems when used from below/the sides. There's hardly any priority under G&W when he uses a N-air, so it's sort of position dependent. Most of the time G&W is only using N-air when Kirby's above him/to his sides anyway, so I guess it's sort of moot.

:mad: · Jun 22, 2009

Special thanks for A1loin for picking a character that causes this thread to die.

Give us your opinion, A1.

Lovely · Jun 22, 2009

That's because the G&W match up is too simple and kind of unchangeable. Not many things to say but 40/60 G&W since you have to be careful with him.

Retroend · Jun 23, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
There really is little Kirby can do in this matchup...he doesn't have a real way to punish G&W's B-air.QUOTE]

final cutter. that breaks his back air. if you don' believe me, try it and you'll see.

A1lion835 · Jun 23, 2009

Straked said:
Give us your opinion, A1.

Er...bucket breaking makes g&w evil. Bair and dair are hard to counter if you don't shieldgrab them or fc them (though uair goes through the key during the startup). Dthrow at the beginning of stocks in hopes that they'll try to dair you, walk a little to the opposite of where they're facing, turn back around and regrab. Don't feed the bucket with fc or bacon, and don't copy the bacon. Try to use stone on his recovery for that extra bit of damage. Watch out for his smash attacks. When he grabs you, hold away from him and when you imagine the 5th (or is it 4th? I know he does either 3 or 4 beeps...), anyway, when you imagine that an extra beep would come, press your shield button to techroll away from him or eat a dsmash. Watch out for his IASA dtilt which gives him a hitbox all frames he uses it, has a hitbox all over his body AND is disjointed. Watch out for ALL his aerials. And his smashes (Don't get hit?). Pick stages with high ceilings (JJ). I'm not sure how brinstar would do...

-My randomly organized thoughts on the matchup. Happy?

Straked said:
Special thanks for A1loin for picking a character that causes this thread to die.

You're the ones who voted for him. Remember how people vote on the matchup...?

Ladybug · Jun 23, 2009

I vote G&W done and we should do ZSS or Yoshi. I'd prefer ZSS though... Pweese.

Lord Viper · Jun 23, 2009

Ladybug said:
I vote G&W done and we should do ZSS or Yoshi. I'd prefer ZSS though... Pweese.

☆ Start Zero Suit Samus, THERE'S NO WAY THIS MATCH UP IS ZERO SUIT SAMUS FAVOR!!! And Yoshi match up seems to be wierd since I don't find Yoshi all that hard. ☆

:mad: · Jun 23, 2009

A1lion835 said:
Er...bucket breaking makes g&w evil. Bair and dair are hard to counter if you don't shieldgrab them or fc them (though uair goes through the key during the startup). Dthrow at the beginning of stocks in hopes that they'll try to dair you, walk a little to the opposite of where they're facing, turn back around and regrab. Don't feed the bucket with fc or bacon, and don't copy the bacon. Try to use stone on his recovery for that extra bit of damage. Watch out for his smash attacks. When he grabs you, hold away from him and when you imagine the 5th (or is it 4th? I know he does either 3 or 4 beeps...), anyway, when you imagine that an extra beep would come, press your shield button to techroll away from him or eat a dsmash. Watch out for his IASA dtilt which gives him a hitbox all frames he uses it, has a hitbox all over his body AND is disjointed. Watch out for ALL his aerials. And his smashes (Don't get hit?). Pick stages with high ceilings (JJ). I'm not sure how brinstar would do...

-My randomly organized thoughts on the matchup. Happy?

I'm happy you gave us your thoughts.
Then I looked at the OP and I'm suddenly sad.

You're the ones who voted for him. Remember how people vote on the matchup...?

This voting system is terrible. Just listen to anyone that gives a suggestion. Viper suggested Zero Suit Samus. Instead of you making a well thought out OP with details on the character matchup and how Kirby does, you just put the ratio, page number, and give us a 2 day voting session because you're never online. Start Zero Suit Samus the second you see this. Fix the OP, don't be lazy and just list page numbers. Do some actual work, you have time, you just got out from school. Make this thread one other boards can be jealous of.

TL;DR, for the love of god, fix this threaddddd.

Asdioh · Jun 24, 2009

Actually, DO copy the Bacon, because if you know what you're doing that is an amazing move. Chef is so underrated >_>

Yeah he can Bucket it, but Bucket is pretty darn easy to punish even if he does. And if he doesn't, those things do like 4% damage each, and can easily bait into Fsmashes and the like if you're smart with it. Plus you can hit them with the pan if they get too close.

Also, you have to be at a decently high percentage for a fully charged Bucket filled with the Chef projectiles to KO you. G&W KOs so low already that it doesn't really matter.

Brinstar is an awful stage against G&W.

Wifi G&W is an automatic loss for us. -_-
Who needs to tech dthrows?
Who needs to not run into overpowered Smash spam?

Falconv1.0 · Jun 24, 2009

Please for the love of God listen to Straked. I'm begging you.

Ladybug · Jun 24, 2009

I voted ZSS because I'm really bad at projectiles (also why I asked for Yoshi) and there's one here that likes to spam + use that whip a lot... And there's another one coming that's actually pretty good. Since I don't have a lot of experience with this matchup, I wanted to see what other people say about it. I know the matchup is in Kirby's favour, since her grabs are crap and her air game is even worse... But I was just curious what the pros say.

Falconv1.0 · Jun 24, 2009

Avoid the whip and the stupid blaster.

Use Bair.

Profit.

:mad: · Jun 24, 2009

Falconv1.0 said:
Avoid the whip and the stupid blaster.

Use Bair.

Profit.

Agreed. Kirbycide every stock and see if it works.

jiovanni007 · Jun 24, 2009

Straked said:
Agreed. Kirbycide every stock and see if it works.

Doubtful, inhale isn't what it was in Melee and almost every character has a way around it. Assuming you're trying to do it coming back from the stage then she can bair, fair, or >B you out of it. This is also one of the cases where you pretty much have to commit suicide because she'll have no problem recovering from a stagespit unless you edgehog or stagespike her.

A1lion835 · Jun 24, 2009

GOD! MAYBE I'LL DO THE MATCHUP SUMMARIES WHEN I HAVE TIME?!

(FYI, I'm working on the Sonic summary right now).

Falconv1.0 · Jun 24, 2009

A1lion835 said:
GOD! MAYBE I'LL DO THE MATCHUP SUMMARIES WHEN I HAVE TIME?! :MAD: a

Or you could pass this thread on to someone with time on their hands, which should have been suggested a thousand times already. I call serious bull**** that you are busy every waking hour of your life. You dont even have like 30 minutes to update this ****? Really?

Also, yeah, yell at us while on cruise control for cool. That will definitely put out the flames.

DDM · Jun 24, 2009

fromundaman said:
the power of steak overwhelms me.

I'm sorry, I have to ask if I can please sig this.

fromundaman · Jun 24, 2009

Meh, Kewkky and I were just talking about this matchup last night.
Powershielding wrecks ZSS, since her grab is so bad. Powershield her projectile/SideB, and be ready to sidestep when she does her laggy *** grab, and punish it hard. Bair OoS is your friend, as is inhale break>footstool>ledgehog.

You can duck a lot of her attacks.

Be careful against her aerials, as most of them outrange ours, and they tend to be stronger in general.

ZSS is light, and killing her is much easier than her killing us (unless you get hit with a Dsmash, which results in a Bair to the face for the death. So yeah, be careful not to get hit by the Dsmash.).

She comboes us pretty badly, so be careful about that and try not to get above her.

Be very careful when trying to gimp her. Her DownB will **** your **** if you're not careful.

EDIT: DDM, go ahead. I actually didn't remember saying that :laugh:

.

DC · Jun 24, 2009

Hm, I leave for one matchup discussion and G&W gets put at 45/55? I guess it's too late to discuss GW's obvious advantages over Kirbys, but at least I can make sure ZSS's matchup ratio is put at it's rightful 40/60, for one of my crew members (Nick Riddle) is the best ZSS is the state of Florida. (Probably the best ZSS in ATL south, but who the hell else plays ZSS really?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHZ9UO--c4c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToSB-yx2Gww

If you like I can get more vids of us uploaded but let me explain my reasoning first.

First let me start out by saying that, like all matchup, it depends on yours and the other person's experience in the matchup before anything else. Bair/air camping works wonders in a lot of matchups, but like against Marth this strategy is rendered (almost) completely useless by ZSS's long range side+b. I found out the hard way that Plasma Whip can be used in almost the exact same way as Marth's fair to neutralize our air game. It's possible to get in but it's more likely you'll take a plasma whip to the feet due to it's ridiculous long range and knockback.

In fact even without Plasma Whip ZSS's air game is beast. Her attacks come out with lightning speed, and all of which have kill potential (except for nair, but no ZSS uses nair

) ON TOP OF THAT, all of her b attacks (not counting neutral b) have good uses in the air. Already mentioned side+b.

Up+b is a great long range combo starter and it ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS clanks with or straight up beats our dair. If you're above ZSS look out for an up+b or uair, I usually just time a good airdodge because uair WILL KILL at above average %s and without dair we don't have much else we can do to ZSS while above her. (Also I believe if she uses her up+b on stone it slows our descent giving her more time to dodge)

Down+b... man I hate this attack. If I had a dollar for every time I've gotten randomly spiked at low %s because of this attack... ugh. If you see her doing down+b never approach from underneath, that should be a given. She will always have enough time to react and spike you with the simple press of a button. After the spike it becomes a powerful lingering hitbox (sex kick?) Off the stage ZSS will use this to recover, then either side+b or up+b to grab the ledge. This can be punished however, if you wait for ZSS to use down+b then hit them once more and grab the ledge.

I'm not 100% on this but if for some reason you get spiked high from down+b you will not be able to jump. It has ridiculous hitstun and can definitely kill at 0%. I believe the only thing you can do is meteor cancel with up+b and hope you grab the ledge (depending on where you got spiked from).

This post is getting a bit long so I'll quickly go into dsmash. You will get hit by dsmash, I don't care who you are. It comes out quick and has little lag after the hitbox is gone. DO NOT try to edge camp ZSS.
DC'S HELPFUL TIPS ABOUT DSMASH:
1. **** did I get hit by dsmash again?
2. If you've been stunned once, you cannot get stunned again until you touch the ground (either by dsmash or neutral b), but you will take damage.
3. Get stunned in the middle of the stage? DI up and get ready to momentum cancel.
4. Get stunned near the sides of the stage? ****. Don't get dsmashed on your next stock.
5. Get stunned while edge camping ZSS? What the hell did I tell you about edge camping? DI towards the stage and TECH TECH TECH the bair she's about to hit you with.
6. ****, I just got dsmashed again. :|

Alright last paragraph I promise. ZSS is very strong and fast in the air, essentially beating us at our own game but also with added range. She's more susceptible on the ground so change your playstyle a bit to fit that idea but remember that you're not completely useless in the air (just like the Marth matchup). Inhale does work wonders in this matchup btw. You can duck under her jab, dash attack and neutral+b, don't try to duck under her side+b. Utilize tilts! Try not to get dsmashed. Gimp her if possible but don't get too aggresive, you will get spiked. All in all I believe it's an uphill battle but still very winnable. ZSS has range speed and killing potential in the air (this is supposed to be Kirbys!). 40/60 ZSS.

Random facts/tips about the matchup:
1. Learn to catch those **** armor pieces. I like to sometimes throw them upwards and (if I'm lucky), upthrow ZSS she takes damage from the piece going up and damage from the throw.
2. If you are on the ground and she jabs you, hold shield and you will powershield the third hit of her jab... punish.
3. Her dash attack always trades hits with our bair?
4. Her side+b has 2 hits, one in the middle that pushes you towars the second hit that has the knockback. I believe you can smash DI the first hit to not get hit with the second.
5. After getting dsmashed you can hold either away or up to change your trajectory A LITTLE BIT.
6. Fsmash always beats her dash attack.

Delta Z · Jun 24, 2009

First you want Metaknight to be 30-70, and now this? Do you have some kind of need to make Kirby's matchups look worse than they are or something? Losing to someone that is really good with a character doesn't mean their character automatically has an advantage over yours.

But I do agree that G&W is 40-60.

DC · Jun 24, 2009

Delta Z said:
First you want Metaknight to be 30-70, and now this? Do you have some kind of need to make Kirby's matchups look worse than they are or something? Losing to someone that is really good with a character doesn't mean their character automatically has an advantage over yours.

But I do agree that G&W is 40-60.

At no point did I say Kirby/MK was 30/70, nor do I base my conclusions on "losing to someone that is really good with a character." I gave my reasoning for all aspects of the matchup that I could conceive and I would appreciate if you actually read my posts fully before replying to them, thanks.

:mad: · Jun 24, 2009

DC really does know his stuff, Delta. At least listen to his reasons before writing it off as "making it worse than it seems."

And I wasn't serious about Kirbyciding. We were in that weird stage when there was no character to discuss. Game and Watch was done and A1 would've gave us a 2 day voting session.

Lord Viper · Jun 24, 2009

☆ Arrg, I figure it won't be easy to change the Zero Suit Samus match up from 40/60 her favor and DC argument looks solid. ****! I have to ground up some more work to say that it's 40/60 Kirby because I don't find ZSS hard at all, except on Wifi, but even then it's not hard. ☆

☆ Edited: Wait, is the G&W 45/55?!? I don't believe that at all. I'll say as low as 40/60 G&W. ☆

:mad: · Jun 24, 2009

I just saw the ratio too, Viper. It's a 60:40. With all the reasons we stated earlier, it's not 55:45.

Bad A1loin!

EDIT: I just looked back and not a single person even suggested 55:45. What is he thinking?

noradseven · Jun 24, 2009

I agree ZSS:Kirby = 60:40
ZSS +
Our u-air is p. much your worst nightmare in this match, and their is no reason to stop using it.

Up B will grab any down B rush's to the ground to counter aireal juggling.

Your chain grab only runs to like 30% on us, good luck spiking up, up B will allow us to survive for a long time.

Suck spitoff kills can do well, but if we are calm and just boostjump, down B it also can be stopped.

Our B-air ouranges yours, which is also pretty bad for kirby however its a fairly small range and yours is faster.

Kirby doesn't have any fast horizontal attacks besides dash grab to really stop our over B which isn't a very good thing.

Kirby's +
ZSS however is light , a fresh b-air will kill before 80%, f-smash far earlier.

Your f-air is a better spacer than ours, plus you are so short our dash attack can go over you(bangs head into wall)

Also it makes our air approaches far more difficult only allowing us to rely on n-air, and b-air.

We don't have any special combos on kirby so that is a plus, as well.

other stuff
Okay the general opinion of the ZSS players is that u-air, b-air, are far better than over B and blaster (lol), at the beginning thats all we looked at, but now its different.

A1lion835 · Jun 24, 2009

The listing as 55:45 was during one of my many spans of complete retardedness which you so enjoy flaming me about. It's fixed now. I acknowledge that there's some truth behind your statements, but you don't have to flame me, and I'm really considering reporting you. How about you say criticisms about how I run my thread to my face, instead of talking about it in my thread like I don't look at your posts? ****ers. You're the kind of person who makes depressed kids want to kill themselves.

Tien2500 · Jun 24, 2009

I think DC summed up everything failry well. As a ZSS main I agree with him.

:mad: · Jun 24, 2009

Tien2500 said:
I think DC summed up everything failry well. As a ZSS main I agree with him.

Was that intentional?

Teran · Jun 24, 2009

A1lion835 said:
You're the kind of person who makes depressed kids want to kill themselves.

Hey! That's me! What the hell is wrong with that?

Falconv1.0 · Jun 24, 2009

A1lion835 said:
You're the kind of person who makes depressed kids want to kill themselves.

Wow, he was mean, so thus he makes people kill themselves. Well, first off, that is their ****ing fault, not his. Secondly, don't give us p*ssy foot bull**** like that, you've handled this terribly, cowboy up or admit your mistakes and fix them, but don't you dare spout absolute ******** like that.

A1lion835 · Jun 24, 2009

Falconv1.0 said:
Wow, he was mean, so thus he makes people kill themselves. Well, first off, that is their ****ing fault, not his. Secondly, don't give us ***** foot bull**** like that, you've handled this terribly, cowboy up or admit your mistakes and fix them, but don't you dare spout absolute ******** like that.

I admit I've made mistakes. And yes, flaming people about how badly they do one of the only things they think they do well does have that effect. Me and straked are okay now (or perhaps, I am okay, as straked has explained his actions to me very well, while I acted like a wuss).

Falconv1.0 · Jun 24, 2009

A1lion835 said:
I admit I've made mistakes. And yes, flaming people about how badly they do one of the only things they think they do well does have that effect.

And by effect you mean epic lulz and a potential an hero.

Yeah yeah, I get the point. Now let's actually make this place not look like balls.

:mad: · Jun 24, 2009

Falcon's the kind of person that makes depressed kids kill themselves.

Or in your case, SD and get JV 4 stocked by a Ganondorf motha****a.

Zero Soot Samussssssssss.

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