Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!

Kewkky · Oct 1, 2009

Sorry, Thrilla, but I think I know Kirby's properties far too well to call this MU even. Our utilt outranges a lot of Fox's attacks (and clanks with his smashes while having faster start-up time, meaning that buffering another utilt after a clank means Fox will get hit), and it's not hard AT ALL to hit any character with utilt (even MK and Snake). Our ftilt can knock Fox in a horizontal position at any % and combo from bair (bair>ftilt) giving us an easy ~20% at any time before high %s, and we can also angle it up to hit them from a diagonal range (and it being disjointed, at some points it can knock Fox out of his dair). We can also bair Fox out of his dair, and Fox takes more damage than we do when we trade hits, so it's a MUST if the Fox's patterns are easy to read... And our fsmash destroys Fox's aerial approaches, no matter which he chooses (as long as he's in range, which is no problem at all for a disjointed moving hitbox like Kirby's that kills early, and can be angled upwards to cover more aerial distance).

Kirby really doesn't have to approach once he's got an advantage, which Kirby can get easier than Fox. Fox HAS to rely on slow damage-racking options since we're lightweight and can get out of combos super easy (Kirby can still get out of the dair>utilt after ~10% if we are in front of him, and since he'll be aiming his dairs to be landing behind us, it won't be hard at all), plus us being a small target we can SDI out of a lot of stuff easier than other characters whose hurtbox take forever to get out of an attacks' range... While we hit Fox with ont utilt/dtilt/pummel/grab and he's well on his way to a large amount of damage in a single sitting (if Fox somehow SDI's out of fthrow>uair, it's got to be at the third fthrow since his fastfalling properties make it impossible for him to get out of our grab range while we do the combo, since we DI towards him while uairing which resets the spacing Fox creates).

We can make many more mistakes than what Fox is allowed to do... One mistake from Fox and he's hurting baaad, or dead at ~100% from a fresh up-angled fsmash (just like our mistakes may cost us a stock from a fresh usmash of yours)... But we have an easier time taking you up to that ~100% mark than what you have taking US to the ~80-90% mark.

I don't think this should be called even.

Percon · Oct 1, 2009

I don't wanna do a writeup because I'm lazy, but I think this is in Kirby's advantage 60:40.

*runs away*

Lord Viper · Oct 1, 2009

Percon said:
I don't wanna do a writeup because I'm lazy, but I think this is in Kirby's advantage 60:40.

*runs away*

☆ Guys, the great Percon has spoken. Even with his one line, he automatically wins. =P ☆

☆ To add, I really don't see any advantage of how Fox can make this match up close to even at all. Only three kill moves that has a random chance of killing, can get easily combo'd and grabbed, light so you some of Kirby's kill moves can kill fast horizontally, even at stupid percents like 80ish or 90ish, Up-B can able to gimp easy. With those strong points against Fox, I can't think of this match up being even with Fox being fast... that reminds me, why is the Sheik match up thread even again? ☆

*JuriHan* · Oct 1, 2009

it is i like zero deathed a fox the other day (watch stock 2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWIkKRnL_pg

real easy to do grab combos on him

Kewkky · Oct 1, 2009

Obviously, high level players will be watching out for anything Kirby can throw at him... But high level Kirbies will get the combos in anyway....

Just saying before someone comes in and says "Well Fox will just avoid everything" or "Don't get hit".

Lightning93 · Oct 1, 2009

*SniperNightOwl* said:
it is i like zero deathed a fox the other day (watch stock 2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWIkKRnL_pg

real easy to do grab combos on him

I'm pretty sure that Fox could have avoided the upsmash in that combo by DI'ing right... and I do hope you guys realize he was horrible. He ONLY approached with Dair or DA, and he let you fly right above him without even trying to juggle! He could have easily gimped you at 1:18 and maybe even 2:35...

Fox by the way lands 60% combos on you too, but are considered psuedo. He just has too many followups that this Fox wasn't even thinking of. He landed into every Fsmash, and instead of returning safely to the ground he tried to attack you without even shine stalling...

Kewkky · Oct 1, 2009

Lightning93 said:
I'm pretty sure that Fox could have avoided the upsmash in that combo by DI'ing right... and I do hope you guys realize he was horrible. He ONLY approached with Dair or DA, and he let you fly right above him without even trying to juggle! He could have easily gimped you at 1:18 and maybe even 2:35...

Fox by the way lands 60% combos on you too, but are considered psuedo. He just has too many followups that this Fox wasn't even thinking of. He landed into every Fsmash, and instead of returning safely to the ground he tried to attack you without even shine stalling...

WiFi johns. And non-Fox-mainer johns. Hope that clears lots of things up, heheheh.

Lightning93 · Oct 1, 2009

No sure, sure, they way he played I kind of assumed he didn't play Fox competitively. I just wanted to clear some things up as well. Fox shouldn't be ***** that bad ever, if he's even somewhat serious.

I don't have much Fox representation, so it's kind of hard to get you guys to see exactly what kind of advantages Fox has in this matchup. ThrillaGorilla did a great job, but I don't think it quite convinced you guys lulz.

Kewkky · Oct 1, 2009

Lightning93 said:
No sure, sure, they way he played I kind of assumed he didn't play Fox competitively. I just wanted to clear some things up as well. Fox shouldn't be ***** that bad ever, if he's even somewhat serious.

I don't have much Fox representation, so it's kind of hard to get you guys to see exactly what kind of advantages Fox has in this matchup. ThrillaGorilla did a great job, but I don't think it quite convinced you guys lulz.

Well, I don't mean to sound like an *******, but practically every Kirby main that posts here (including me) hasn't represented Kirby competitively enough to warrant truth in his words, so every once in a while, when you feel like you have the idea of how an MU should look like and you TRULY believe it, another one with the same competitive representation level as you will jump in and say you're wrong, and add in HIS thoughts on the matter.

Right now, what's working in the MU discussion so far, is that the majority's opinion wins... And usually, the majority's opinions include knowledgeable people who have proven their knowledge, as well as non-knowledgeable people who have tons of matchup experience... The real thing hurting MU discussions right now, is people who truly believe they have the MU mastered (as well as Kirby's game), when most probably in actuality they don't know half of Kirby's options (obvious hyperbole, still true nonetheless).

Lightning93 · Oct 1, 2009

So you're point is that Kirby's side is winning due to numbers, or are you saying Fox main's don't know enough about Kirby? Or both?

Fox boards have recently kept to themselves, so MANY communities are at lack of knowledge in what Fox can really do in certain situations. His approaching game has definitely benefited, and with the use of major autocancelling rarely leaves him open to punishing. In fact, I don't believe Kirby has the range or speed (although it's certainly not bad) to punish Fox for much.

Lord Viper · Oct 2, 2009

Kewkky said:
Right now, what's working in the MU discussion so far, is that the majority's opinion wins... And usually, the majority's opinions include knowledgeable people who have proven their knowledge, as well as non-knowledgeable people who have tons of matchup experience... The real thing hurting MU discussions right now, is people who truly believe they have the MU mastered (as well as Kirby's game), when most probably in actuality they don't know half of Kirby's options (obvious hyperbole, still true nonetheless).

☆ Really? If majority options win then I'll have even less reason to look at the match up thread. XD ☆

☆ Most match up threads have reasons to back up the clam of why it's that rating without much debate, though some ratings currently needs more work, *coughsheikcough* but I guess it's what you say after that match up. I'll say this again, more video proof on match up threads would make things a lot more clear than just typing words, so far I can't believe this match up is even close at all, but to have said that, I will need a witness with a camera next time. ☆

Lightning93 · Oct 2, 2009

Well, I would love to play someone here! I don't mind being proven wrong/right, and we can record the videos for proof. But, we can't just solely base it off the vids mind you. Just for general ideas imo.

Kewkky · Oct 2, 2009

Lightning93 said:
So you're point is that Kirby's side is winning due to numbers, or are you saying Fox main's don't know enough about Kirby? Or both?

Well, right now, I'm thinking that if Kirby ends up 50:50 or 55:45, it's because of the amount of people saying that he's even... I have a couple of things I'd love to add here, but I can't really say any of it without looking like an ******* of any sort, unless I'm a recognized Kirby top player (which, who knows if I am or not? My point may as well be nothing but moot).

Fox boards have recently kept to themselves, so MANY communities are at lack of knowledge in what Fox can really do in certain situations. His approaching game has definitely benefited, and with the use of major autocancelling rarely leaves him open to punishing. In fact, I don't believe Kirby has the range or speed (although it's certainly not bad) to punish Fox for much.

That's not really helping out your cause... How will you get Fox to the point where you know all of his options' results if things go bad, and how will you be able to react upon them if you don't have an idea beforehand? I think keeping a characters' perks to its own community is more of a hindrance than a benefit in the long run.

★Viper said:
☆ Really? If majority options win then I'll have even less reason to look at the match up thread. XD ☆

*cough Ganondorf MU and Sheik MU apparently cough*

Most match up threads have reasons to back up the clam of why it's that rating without much debate, though some ratings currently needs more work, *coughsheikcough* but I guess it's what you say after that match up. I'll say this again, more video proof on match up threads would make things a lot more clear than just typing words, so far I can't believe this match up is even close at all, but to have said that, I will need a witness with a camera next time. ☆

I think videos aren't a real good way of pointing out what we can do in MUs... There will ALWAYS be people who'll say "X character main didn't space Y move right, and didn't do Z maneuver how you're supposed to".

Lightning93 · Oct 2, 2009

When I meant keeping to ourselves, I mean we don't bother sharing anything. Either people on the Fox boards are active and are in the know-how, or they never check in and just don't know. Fox doesn't have enough reputation to show off his metagame to all the communities, so many people don't know what he is capable of :/.

Anyways, my point is, 60:40 is an okay number, but I believe it is easier than that, and I know other would like to agree.

~Gonzo~ · Oct 3, 2009

can't believe these discussions still go on O_o

Kewkky · Oct 3, 2009

~Gonzo~ said:
can't believe these discussions still go on O_o

I know, even though MUs don't matter if you have a playstyle different than the ones used to get the ratios, amirite? It'd be MUCH easier to just say *****, disadvantage, even, advantage and ****......... But that's just my random spurt of "what if" moments.

And hey, I learned like 1-2 things that I didn't know characters could do i this MU discussion (and 1 very cool thing DK can do OUTSIDE of the Kirby MU that barely anyone knows, hohoho).

MK26 · Oct 3, 2009

~Gonzo~ said:
can't believe these discussions still go on O_o

Nothing better to do lol

Kirby board is basically Matchups + KGD now

thrillagorilla · Oct 3, 2009

Summary updated a bit!

@lighting: I'm not too familiar with the strings out of nair, is there any chance you could elaborate?

Now lets see...

*cracks knuckles*

Kewkky said:
Sorry, Thrilla, but I think I know Kirby's properties far too well to call this MU even.

Its not about just Kirby's options... its also about the other character's options. You play Kirby. Great. Do you play Fox? No? Then unless you have faced off against a good (not decent, Fox's curve is too high for players of that ability and knowledge to give you an indication of what the character can do) Fox on a regular basis, you are not fully aware of the capabilities of the character. Lightning's sig isn't just for show. That was a decent Wolf if I remember the vid it comes from correctly, and Fox has a plethora of strings just like that. Heck, I've taken a good Wario and Sheik from 0% to over 75% in about 30 seconds (and in the Wario's case, not even taking a single percent myself). I'm a decent Fox player at best, too. In the hands of a capable player, Fox is a beast. That said, lets continue.

Our utilt outranges a lot of Fox's attacks (and clanks with his smashes while having faster start-up time, meaning that buffering another utilt after a clank means Fox will get hit), and it's not hard AT ALL to hit any character with utilt (even MK and Snake). Our ftilt can knock Fox in a horizontal position at any % and combo from bair (bair>ftilt) giving us an easy ~20% at any time before high %s, and we can also angle it up to hit them from a diagonal range (and it being disjointed, at some points it can knock Fox out of his dair). We can also bair Fox out of his dair, and Fox takes more damage than we do when we trade hits, so it's a MUST if the Fox's patterns are easy to read... And our fsmash destroys Fox's aerial approaches, no matter which he chooses (as long as he's in range, which is no problem at all for a disjointed moving hitbox like Kirby's that kills early, and can be angled upwards to cover more aerial distance).

First off, just like in the sheik MU (and even more so with this one), Fox's movement speed and play style help to mitigate range issues. Fox isn't a "run in there and beat on them" type of character. Fox is a "wait or bait for an opportunity, and THEN run in there and beat on them" type of character. U-tilt truly is beastly in this MU, but not as a simple "throw it out there" kind of a move. The same goes for f-tilt. If that's all that Kirby is doing, then the Fox will likely bait it, pull back and hit with a laser. They might also bait, then grab or u-smash against the lag. You describe the move as if it was abuse able, and neither character has any moves that work like that against each other. Sounds even to me. On a side note, no Fox in their right mind will approach with dair, especially in this MU. It is strictly a punishing move, because everything beats it out.

Kirby really doesn't have to approach once he's got an advantage, which Kirby can get easier than Fox.

orealy? 10Foxlasers.

Fox HAS to rely on slow damage-racking options since we're lightweight and can get out of combos super easy (Kirby can still get out of the dair>utilt after ~10% if we are in front of him, and since he'll be aiming his dairs to be landing behind us, it won't be hard at all), plus us being a small target we can SDI out of a lot of stuff easier than other characters whose hurtbox take forever to get out of an attacks' range... While we hit Fox with ont utilt/dtilt/pummel/grab and he's well on his way to a large amount of damage in a single sitting (if Fox somehow SDI's out of fthrow>uair, it's got to be at the third fthrow since his fastfalling properties make it impossible for him to get out of our grab range while we do the combo, since we DI towards him while uairing which resets the spacing Fox creates).

First of all, if you think it isn't possible to SDI out of f-throw -> u-air until the third grab for Fox, you have no idea how to SDI. Its difficult, but a learned Fox with practice can get out as soon as the first one. Secondly, your analysis of how you can SDI away from Fox's dair by being in front of him and SDIing away when he is aiming behind you makes no sense at all. Finally, Fox's damage racking abilities are based on frame traps and flexible strings, not true combos. You SDI away? Fox follows with a different string that accommodates it with his superior speed. Its the way Fox works, and its the reason why he has such a ridiculously high learning curve.

*points at Lightning's sig again for good measure*

We can make many more mistakes than what Fox is allowed to do... One mistake from Fox and he's hurting baaad, or dead at ~100% from a fresh up-angled fsmash (just like our mistakes may cost us a stock from a fresh usmash of yours)... But we have an easier time taking you up to that ~100% mark than what you have taking US to the ~80-90% mark.

Not true for a good Fox. Not true at all.

I don't think this should be called even.

★Viper said:
☆ Guys, the great Percon has spoken. Even with his one line, he automatically wins. =P ☆

☆ To add, I really don't see any advantage of how Fox can make this match up close to even at all. Only three kill moves that has a random chance of killing, can get easily combo'd and grabbed, light so you some of Kirby's kill moves can kill fast horizontally, even at stupid percents like 80ish or 90ish, Up-B can able to gimp easy. With those strong points against Fox, I can't think of this match up being even with Fox being fast... that reminds me, why is the Sheik match up thread even again? ☆

I'll address the up-b stuff in the summary later. I don't know of any other way to describe the speed in combination with a knowledge of the MU other than referencing the a last time we played Kirby dittos. Make my play faster, more damaging and even more difficult to get that first hit against, and you can start to get an idea.

Kewkky said:
Well, I don't mean to sound like an *******, but practically every Kirby main that posts here (including me) hasn't represented Kirby competitively enough to warrant truth in his words, so every once in a while, when you feel like you have the idea of how an MU should look like and you TRULY believe it, another one with the same competitive representation level as you will jump in and say you're wrong, and add in HIS thoughts on the matter.

Speaking of which, last I checked in with t1mmy, he said even. He has represented Kirby a lot in tourneys against some of the best players out there.

*shrugs*

Right now, what's working in the MU discussion so far, is that the majority's opinion wins... And usually, the majority's opinions include knowledgeable people who have proven their knowledge, as well as non-knowledgeable people who have tons of matchup experience... The real thing hurting MU discussions right now, is people who truly believe they have the MU mastered (as well as Kirby's game), when most probably in actuality they don't know half of Kirby's options (obvious hyperbole, still true nonetheless).

I actually agree with your assertion... when it comes to the Falco MU discussion. :dizzy:

I also can't help but feel this is directed at me, seeing that I'm the most vocal.

*shrugs again*

I do know Kirby's options, and I try not to discuss characters unless I know them pretty well. I digress...

Lightning93 · Oct 3, 2009

ThrillaGorilla is absolutely correct.

And about those N-air strings, like most of Fox's combos they are psuedo-based, but Nair>Upsmash can be a great kill combo. Nair>to running shield grab is a good way to approach and set up another string. Heck, against both Kirby and Jigglypuff I managed to pull off SHNair>SHNair>Upsmash, it all depends on how your opponent reacts. And good Fox players have the luxury of speed to make this choice possible.

Toronto Joe · Oct 4, 2009

nair usmash ftwwwwwwwww

Kewkky · Oct 4, 2009

Nair>usmash is not a true combo, we can SDI up and airdodge on the way down to avoid your usmash, then punish with a grab. At high %s, Fox gets very predictable, since his best killing options are uair and usmash... So all we have to do is keep a close eye on his animations and we'll be able to evade it until very high %s.

How will his lasers give him back his advantage, if we could be either crouching, jumping, or hanging on the ledge? If he advances with lasers, then we'll be ready for him when he gets close enough, adn if he gets TOO close while we're living on the ledges, he risks a kirbicide>footstool if he's too predictable.

Oh, and... T1MMY's been saying that all of Kirby's MUs are even, or disadvantaged. Doesn't mean that one (or two) person's opinion should mean what Kirby should be looked upon as. I am still seriously believing that this is no less than 60:40 Kirby's, and I'm really not going to change my mind anytime son... You're giving Fox too much credit now, and too little credit to Kirby, something that's been going on in these MU discussions for a while too (and no, i'm not specifically pointing fingers at you, thrilla, so don't worry... It's more of an observation of what i've seen people typing and agreeing to).

Lightning93 · Oct 4, 2009

Kewkky said:
Nair>usmash is not a true combo, we can SDI up and airdodge on the way down to avoid your usmash, then punish with a grab. At high %s, Fox gets very predictable, since his best killing options are uair and usmash... So all we have to do is keep a close eye on his animations and we'll be able to evade it until very high %s.

Barely any of Fox's strings are true combos. That's the point Thrilla is trying to make, that we don't rely on true combos, we rely on follow-ups based on where the opponents go and punishing.

Although N-air>Upsmash is a true combo at certain percents.

Toronto Joe · Oct 4, 2009

the tourney experience ive had at this matchup came from percon who is pretty darn good...we only got to play 2 stocks til our match got scrapped cause the tourney bracket got changed but oh well =[

i think 55;45 kirby is fair...your forgetting how easy it is to kill you guys...the way i see it,kewl you guys got some grab combos,some utilt strings and some other combos that take advantage of fox being a fastfaller,your bair is good for spacing and decent priority, but fox can dish out the %s almost as good(**** you kirby for being so small) is WAY faster at moving around the stage, and can overwhelm kirby...what are kirbys good defense options,besides shutting our laser game on the ground(key word ground) i dont see how you guys can shut down fox

we can work around falco,we can most certainly keep up with you guys

Kewkky · Oct 4, 2009

Toronto Joe said:
the tourney experience ive had at this matchup came from percon who is pretty darn good...we only got to play 2 stocks til our match got scrapped cause the tourney bracket got changed but oh well =[

i think 55;45 kirby is fair...your forgetting how easy it is to kill you guys...the way i see it,kewl you guys got some grab combos,some utilt strings and some other combos that take advantage of fox being a fastfaller,your bair is good for spacing and decent priority, but fox can dish out the %s almost as good(**** you kirby for being so small) is WAY faster at moving around the stage, and can overwhelm kirby...what are kirbys good defense options,besides shutting our laser game on the ground(key word ground) i dont see how you guys can shut down fox

we can work around falco,we can most certainly keep up with you guys

Kirby doesn't get overwhelmed by Fox, we can SDI anything you throw at us, shield your predictable smashes (when we're at high% and you're going to dair>usmash us, we SDI down and powershield, and your fsmash is also quite easy to see coming when we're at high % since we're looking out for any possible killers... Dsmash is the only surprising one, and its range is too short and is very punishable), avoid your lasers and only take about 4-8% damage if we aircamp it and get near you with our backs turned to you/crouch, and a single attack when you're at 0% means you'll be raking in damage until 60%-ish with TRUE combos (while we follow your DI and react before your hitstun runs out).

And yes, just like in every single MU that's gotten discussed, I know that a top-level Fox won't be easy... But it is still easier for Kirby than for Fox.

Spelt · Oct 4, 2009

Kewkky said:
Kirby doesn't get overwhelmed by Fox

obviously, that's why he said it's pretty even, or slightly in your favor...? :|

we can SDI anything you throw at us

so can we...

we have multiple ways to lead into usmash, nair and dair just being a couple of them.

Kewkky · Oct 4, 2009

Spelt said:
obviously, that's why he said it's pretty even, or slightly in your favor...? :|

so can we...

we have multiple ways to lead into usmash, nair and dair just being a couple of them.

Bair>grab / bair>ftilt, utilt chain, dthrow>utilt, dair>ftilt, dair>dtilt, fthrow>uair>dthrow>utilt (...) / fthrow>uair>utilt (...) chain, ledgehop fair>grab...

All true combos if you're near 0%.

Triple R · Oct 4, 2009

Kewkky said:
Bair>grab / bair>ftilt, utilt chain, dthrow>utilt, dair>ftilt, dair>dtilt, fthrow>uair>dthrow>utilt (...) / fthrow>uair>utilt (...) chain, ledgehop fair>grab...

All true combos if you're near 0%.

Don't forget autocanceled fair to reverse utilt :D

Kewkky · Oct 4, 2009

Triple R said:
Don't forget autocanceled fair to reverse utilt :D

And autocanceled fair>dtilt also combos, even at later %s. If it trips the opponent, it's a free grab for Kirby, which usually would involve pummels to refresh our attacks and then an uthrow (if there are platforms above Kirby, we might get a good KO out of it as well) or dthrow with a bair follow-up.

Lightning93 · Oct 4, 2009

Yeah, we could give you a whole list of possible combos and call it our advantage too... but that's not the point of the matchup...

Either way, both characters can wreck each other through multiple means, Kirby just has it a bit easier both offensively and defensively.

~Shao~ · Oct 4, 2009

Lightning93 said:
Yeah, we could give you a whole list of possible combos and call it our advantage too... but that's not the point of the matchup...

It's not just pointing out combos, they're combos that are true combos and fairly easy to land. However, Fox only has pseudo combos, meaning our combos grant us a "real" advantage, and yours don't, because they involve prediction and reading/reacting to your opponent's DI.

Lightning93 said:
Either way, both characters can wreck each other through multiple means, Kirby just has it a bit easier both offensively and defensively.

From my point of view, when a character has an easier time, both offensively and defensively, he has some advantage over the other, meaning it's close, but not neutral.

Lightning93 · Oct 4, 2009

~Shao~ said:
It's not just pointing out combos, they're combos that are true combos and fairly easy to land. However, Fox only has pseudo combos, meaning our combos grant us a "real" advantage, and yours don't, because they involve prediction and reading/reacting to your opponent's DI.

Well, if we are judging by difficulty, just because a combo isn't "true" means it's hard to pull off. In fact, many of Fox's psuedo combos are easily initiated.

From my point of view, when a character has an easier time, both offensively and defensively, he has some advantage over the other, meaning it's close, but not neutral.

I agree with you here, which is why 55:45 sounds fairly reasonable to me.

Kewkky · Oct 4, 2009

I'm too sure Kirby has it 60:40. Seriously, if we end up getting this MU as "even" as well, I'm going to facedesk and lurk the Brawl Tactical Discussion forum more than I visit the Kirby boards.

~Shao~ · Oct 4, 2009

Lightning93 said:
Well, if we are judging by difficulty, just because a combo isn't "true" means it's hard to pull off. In fact, many of Fox's psuedo

What I meant is our combos are more reliable. Even if you can start the combos as easily as us, it still a guessing game, and if you start one, we can still escape with relative ease.

Lightning93 · Oct 4, 2009

~Shao~ said:
What I meant is our combos are more reliable. Even if you can start the combos as easily as us, it still a guessing game, and if you start one, we can still escape with relative ease.

Yeah, you're combos can be a bit more dependent than ours, but not by much. The game doesn't count it as a true combo but Fox's moves can be very dependably strung together most of the time.

The major thing troubling me right now is not your knowledge of what Kirby has on Fox, but what Fox has on Kirby...

thrillagorilla · Oct 4, 2009

I don't feel up to adding to the write up (feeling a bit sick), so I'll address a few thing that were brought up. First, anything involving an aerial -> ground move is a big risk. If you hit a Fox's shield and are still moving towards him, its a free u-smash OoS. Second, Fox doesn't have to use u-air and u-smash to kill. I find myself killing with Fox's b-air and d-smash just as often due to them not being expected. Third, 0% -> whatever combos are great, but Fox has strings at any percentage. Fox will be able to lay the hurt down at any percentage, while Kirby has to find ways of tacking on some percentage here and there after 50% to make it to killing ranges. Even then, you still have to land one of Kirby's kill moves (none with a reliable set-up) on one of the fastest characters in the game.

One more thing... I have been trying (unsuccessfully, it seems) to explain how Fox doesn't need "true combos" to dish out the hurt. So I'm using Fox, and I get you caught in a d-air and try to follow up with a u-tilt. I get punished. Next time around, I get you caught in the d-air, you shield and I grab. Next time around, I figure that you will SDI the dair away to avoid a grab, so when you do I do a running u-smash and hit you again. With Kirby, its different. He has "true combos", but unlike with Fox if Kirby's moves get SDIed he has no real follow-ups due to his slow speed. So on the one hand, Kirby's moves may seem more reliable, but due to their inflexibility they are less useful. I'm not trying to diminish what Kirby can do because in this MU its really good, but it just isn't enough to overwhelm Fox as a character due to the tools he has. I hope that makes sense.

@Kewkky: Thanks for the clarification, its much appreciated.

Kewkky · Oct 4, 2009

thrillagorilla said:
@Kewkky: Thanks for the clarification, its much appreciated.

Uhh... What clarification? o_o' (Edit: nvm, found what I said... Sorry if it seemed like I was pointing fingers at you, it's more like a general observation that I see being repeated over and over again)

Kirby just needs Fox at ~90-100% before he's in danger % of being KO'd off of an fsmash, and considering we can take Fox easily from 0-50/60%, it's just a couple more fastfalled falling bair>ftilts (which no one can shieldgrab due to shieldstun, unless it's powershielded... And also we can't be jump-cancelled usmash'd this way due to the speed of Kirby's ftilt unless the combo was poorly made and we hit the top of your shield) before we can harass Fox into falling for our fsmash (if he watches out for it and shields a lot, then we'll just grab and pummel to refresh our bairs, and kill with one).

thrillagorilla · Oct 4, 2009

Kewkky said:
Uhh... What clarification? o_o'

Kirby just needs Fox at ~90-100% before he's in danger % of being KO'd off of an fsmash, and considering we can take Fox easily from 0-50/60%, it's just a couple more fastfalled falling bair>ftilts (which no one can shieldgrab due to shieldstun, unless it's powershielded... And also we can't be jump-cancelled usmash'd this way due to the speed of Kirby's ftilt unless the combo was poorly made and we hit the top of your shield) before we can harass Fox into falling for our fsmash (if he watches out for it and shields a lot, then we'll just grab and pummel to refresh our bairs, and kill with one).

About the comment not being pointed at me.

Also to your above comment, when is Kirby going to find the time to dair? If he is in the air, there is a good chance Fox is shooting lasers at a safe distance...

Kewkky · Oct 4, 2009

thrillagorilla said:
About the comment not being pointed at me.

Also to your above comment, when is Kirby going to find the time to dair? If he is in the air, there is a good chance Fox is shooting lasers at a safe distance...

Umm, I never said "dair". I said bair.

thrillagorilla · Oct 4, 2009

Kewkky said:
Umm, I never said "dair". I said bair.

*Looks at kewkky's quote again. Looks at his own response.*

...

*facepalm*

Sorry, its been a rough day. :laugh:

My earlier comment about hitting Fox's shield should still apply though. The u-smash is a jump canceled one, so it comes out much faster than a grab or regular shield drop -> attack. I'll check it later to confirm.

Kewkky · Oct 4, 2009

It's cool, dontcha worry 'bout silly things like that. :lick:

The jump-cancelled usmash works only if we hit your shield from high enough, otherwise we land and ftilt you before your usmash frames come out.

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