Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!

Kewkky · Nov 15, 2009

Now I agree with your post completely. I always look to hit Pits with horizontal hitboxes rather than vertical ones. Pit's vertical movement is slower than his horizontal, so you can follow his height and harass him with bairs and fairs until either one of them hits, or his upB runs out and he falls towards the stage/ledge... Where he's dead to us.

Pink murder · Nov 15, 2009

Triple R said:
My point was you guys are making it sound deceivingly easy to land a diar on an upb, which shouldn't be happening often because the situation shouldn't happen often where you can nail them with it. Either way might as well try to fair or bair them anyway, if you miss with dair you are now below them, and they just recovered, while if you miss with fair or bair you may still have a chance to hit them and make them helpless.

... For some reason I thought Pit recovered his Up-B after getting knocked out of it.
My mistake, I'm sorry.

You're completely right, hitting them with a Bair or Fair is a lot better than attempting a Dair in most situations.

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jiovanni007 · Nov 15, 2009

Dair is the best bet unless they ^B then I always fair, but when the first hit connects fastfall. This prevents the last hit from connecting which they can DI upwards and just drift back with ease. Still tough but is still better than watching him recover.

Berserker. · Nov 16, 2009

I think bair or fair seems more safe and as reliable as dair because sometimes you can SD yourself with Dair or you can fastfall accidentally to your death.

Pink murder · Nov 16, 2009

jiovanni007 said:
Dair is the best bet unless they ^B then I always fair, but when the first hit connects fastfall. This prevents the last hit from connecting which they can DI upwards and just drift back with ease. Still tough but is still better than watching him recover.

Why not just use Bair? It knocks them further and you don't have to go through the whole fastfall ordeal you mentioned. Either way the wont get their Up-b back.

Also, Bair or Fair would be a better choice than Dair in most situations.

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Kewkky · Nov 16, 2009

Fastfall is only optional, you can also hit him with all 3 hits of fair, then trace their landing trajectories and wait for them between the ledge and the stage, and punish with a charged dsmash/charged fsmash in the direction they end up DIing towards. If not, well they'll probably sideB in the air trying to gain some extra momentum to make it back onstage, and you just grab the ledge or dair them to their doom while they're out of jumps and upB.

jiovanni007 · Nov 16, 2009

Kewkky said:
Fastfall is only optional, you can also hit him with all 3 hits of fair, then trace their landing trajectories and wait for them between the ledge and the stage, and punish with a charged dsmash/charged fsmash in the direction they end up DIing towards. If not, well they'll probably sideB in the air trying to gain some extra momentum to make it back onstage, and you just grab the ledge or dair them to their doom while they're out of jumps and upB.

That my friend is doing far too much, by fastfalling and not having them get hit by the last hit, they gain negligible vertical trajectory and therefor have a much more difficult time getting back. If they SDI up, then the gain a substantial amount of vertical trajectory and can just outdrift you pretty easily. Pit is still not that easy to gimp in my book. Most of this match is us killing him early.

Kewkky · Nov 16, 2009

I dunno... I find my way easier and less risky than fastfalling fairs. What if the opponent decides to upB before using his jumps? Pit still has all of his jumps if he cancels his freefall with a quick fair while returning to the stage, along with his glide... If you just single-hit him here, then now you're lower and he's still higher than you. If you hit him with all 3, you lose no height, knock him farther away, and are closer to the stage than he is, meaning you can go back and get ready to meet him there, or follow him farther away offstage in the hopes of racking up more damage.

Berserker. · Nov 17, 2009

I use b-air in some cases when Pit is behind me but when he's below, I fastfall fairs. irby can suck Pit to copy his ability and Kirby has an easier time spamming arrows on Pit since Pit is a bigger target than Kirby while Kirby is smaller and yeah, I know Pit can angle his arrows to hit Kirby. It's just gonna be KINDA hard because Kirby is small. Hammer and rock can be good against Pit's Up B but it's unsafe and risky anyway.

Pink murder · Nov 17, 2009

Kewkky said:
Fastfall is only optional, you can also hit him with all 3 hits of fair, then trace their landing trajectories and wait for them between the ledge and the stage, and punish with a charged dsmash/charged fsmash in the direction they end up DIing towards. If not, well they'll probably sideB in the air trying to gain some extra momentum to make it back onstage, and you just grab the ledge or dair them to their doom while they're out of jumps and upB.

jiovanni007 said:
That my friend is doing far too much, by fastfalling and not having them get hit by the last hit, they gain negligible vertical trajectory and therefor have a much more difficult time getting back. If they SDI up, then the gain a substantial amount of vertical trajectory and can just outdrift you pretty easily. Pit is still not that easy to gimp in my book. Most of this match is us killing him early.

Kewkky said:
I dunno... I find my way easier and less risky than fastfalling fairs. What if the opponent decides to upB before using his jumps? Pit still has all of his jumps if he cancels his freefall with a quick fair while returning to the stage, along with his glide... If you just single-hit him here, then now you're lower and he's still higher than you. If you hit him with all 3, you lose no height, knock him farther away, and are closer to the stage than he is, meaning you can go back and get ready to meet him there, or follow him farther away offstage in the hopes of racking up more damage.

.....Why not just use Bair? o_o

Seriously though, Kewkky has a point. Pit has a lot of options when recovering, Fastfalling Fairs will ultimately put you in the same situation as a missed Dair would: Under Pit. Hitting with all 3 moves can allow you to follow him even further offstage and end up either racking up more damage or K.O'ing him with a Bair.

..... Or, you know, you could just use Bair.

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Kewkky · Nov 17, 2009

Obviously we can use bair, but sometimes fair is a better option due to having hitboxes for a longer time than bair does. Fair has 3 hitboxes that stay active for about half a second, and bair's hitbox lasts like 1/4 of a second (or a bit less). By having a longer-lasting wall up, we have a better chance of hitting him than with bair's.

Of course, bair is safer due to its disjoint.

Berserker. · Nov 18, 2009

Bair and fair are used depending on what situation but what move do you use if Pit is above you?

Pink murder · Nov 18, 2009

berserker01 said:
Bair and fair are used depending on what situation but what move do you use if Pit is above you?

If he's above you than I'd probably give up on trying to Gimp him. You can try to juggle him using you're aerial attacks -particularly Uair.

I don't know Kewkky... I think Bair's disjoint and knockback potential outweighs Fair's longer lasting hitbox. My vote is that it's better to use Bair; however, if you must use Fair for whatever reason try and hit Pit with all three moves to follow him further offstage.

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Kewkky · Nov 18, 2009

Well, to each his own. If it's easier for you to use bair, then go for it. Both are working gimp moves, so there really should be no argument here.

And, when's the next chaacter coming up? Pit has been discussed for a while now.

Berserker. · Nov 19, 2009

Maybe we should discuss next Samus, Bowser or Lucas or other characters

jiovanni007 · Nov 19, 2009

I'm thinking we should finish the rediscussions or lolimar since he wasn't covered on this board. The only rediscussions left are Zelda and Wolf(?) then we can finish the rest of the cast.

Pink murder · Nov 19, 2009

Kewkky said:
Well, to each his own. If it's easier for you to use bair, then go for it. Both are working gimp moves, so there really should be no argument here.

Agreed.

jiovanni007 said:
I'm thinking we should finish the rediscussions or lolimar since he wasn't covered on this board. The only rediscussions left are Zelda and Wolf(?) then we can finish the rest of the cast.

I can't input too much about Olimar -almost no MU experience- but I'll tell you what I can a little later.

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jiovanni007 · Nov 19, 2009

Pink murder said:
Agreed.

I can't input too much about Olimar -almost no MU experience- but I'll tell you what I can a little later.

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lawlwut? but anyway i think its been agreed pit is 55-45. Lets do olinar next. This one is even if you ask me. think ice climbers without cgs or blizzard. you mever wanna touch the ground yetu you still have to plan your aerial attacks very carefully. both of us are light and kills coneventional kills come easy on both sides. i fell our ability to gimp. I know the lolimar mains will attest against this but lolimar literally has the 2nd worst recovery. posting from my phone so more details later

Berserker. · Nov 20, 2009

Were discussing Olimar now? If we are... read this:

This seems pretty obvious. Spamming Pikmins, camping stuff, more camping, that's not Kirby's type. Since Olimar's recovery is horrible and Kirby's off-stage game is pretty good, you should take advantage of that. Go to Rainbow Cruise, it's a bad stage for Olimar and a good stage for you anyway. Plus I think it's 45:55 or 40:60. 40:60 is what I'm thinking of.

Lord Viper · Nov 20, 2009

☆ I've been waiting to discuss Olimar for a long time, and is highly confused on why is he even a hard match up. Pikmin spam? I'm pretty sure most of your attacks can hit the Pikmin when they reach you. Grabs? Only if you stay on the ground and attack most of the time, Olimar only has like two good air moves that's usesful on Kirby. Sigh, I don't even know how or why this is a hard match up, I guess it's because I play with Olimar as well.... then again, I play everyone so I don't know anymore. ☆

Berserker. · Nov 20, 2009

I don't know why they think it's hard. Probably they don't really know what kirby can really do

Pink murder · Nov 20, 2009

I meant that I had almost no MU experience with Olimar

Olimar is extremely easy to Gimp -edgehog anyone? And Viper's post was also true.

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Berserker. · Nov 20, 2009

Plus we can justsimply copy his ability then throw pikmins like him

Lord Viper · Nov 20, 2009

☆ That's a bad idea, Kirby can only throw Pikmin one at a time plus he has to be on the ground, while Olimar can throw them faster and he can throw them in the air. It's better to Star Shoot him under the stage than to copy. ☆

Berserker. · Nov 20, 2009

Well at least some of his pikmins travel slowly so we can attack it and since Olimar has a horrible recovery, it might make it way easier. Btw, right Kirby has nice off-stage ability?

Lord Viper · Nov 20, 2009

☆ Use the Pikmin on Olimar off stage? I might have to try and see how that works. ☆

Berserker. · Nov 20, 2009

Vulcan jabbing the pikmins that Olimar throw works :/

Pink murder · Nov 22, 2009

berserker01 said:
Vulcan jabbing the pikmins that Olimar throw works :/

Wouldn't that kinda leave you open?

Also, I too think leaving inhale open is the better choice. Although it is fun to nail Olimar with his own stupid ~~penguins~~ Pikmen.

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Berserker. · Nov 23, 2009

Okay never mind about dumb vulcan jabs. Anyway, using Olimar's trash (lol) against him is a good idea, should I call Olimar mains?

Sky Pirate · Nov 23, 2009

I'm not going to say much after berserker referred to my pikmin as trash (and here I thought Kirby players were nice people), but I will say that leaving Inhale open IS far superior to copying on larger stages like FD and moving stages like RC.
I would also still call this matchup at 60-40 Oli's favor. Kirby DOES have a lot of trouble approaching.

Our recovery IS the second worst in the game and no sane Olimain would argue against that. We do have other glaring weaknesses, though.

jiovanni007 · Nov 23, 2009

SkyPirateCoud said:
I'm not going to say much after berserker referred to my pikmin as trash (and here I thought Kirby players were nice people), but I will say that leaving Inhale open IS far superior to copying on larger stages like FD and moving stages like RC.
I would also still call this matchup at 60-40 Oli's favor. Kirby DOES have a lot of trouble approaching.

Our recovery IS the second worst in the game and no sane Olimain would argue against that. We do have other glaring weaknesses, though.

Yeah I agree we have some trouble approaching but I'd like for you to elaborate on Oli's "glaring" weaknesses. All I can think of is he would have trouble competing in the front of back in the air. Olimar is really good on the ground. Pikmin are weird as hell in brawl. I agree on the inhale as well. It beats whistle and can drag oli down.

Lord Viper · Nov 23, 2009

☆ I still don't see how it's hard to apporch him unless you run to him on the ground or D-Air him and fail then he grabs you. =/ ☆

☆ I've been hearing Kirby vs Olimar is a hard match up, but do not see it. All I can see is that all he can do is bait and punish, throwing too many Pikmin wouldn't be a good idea since you can attack them when they are thrown, even the Final Cutter, (a move I tend to spam really well), is useful when Olimar throws Pikmin. ☆ '

☆ I'm kind of sadden that Jungle Japes isn't legal everywhere, that's one of the best stages to take Olimar. I guess we still have Rainbow Cruise, Pokemon Stadium, Pokemon Stadium 2, Defino Plaza, and Frigate Orpheon over him while he has Norfair, and Luigi's Masion as true advantage stages. The reason I say both Stadiums is that his Pikmin tend to get out of place on some transformations, also while the stage changes, grabs are release automatically happens if you don't throw while the stage is changing. ☆

☆ And I suppose you guys want proof? You have to try it out yourself, I don't own any video equipment to show you.... though it might be better if I were to play L Cancel's Olimar. ☆

jiovanni007 · Nov 23, 2009

★Viper said:
☆ I still don't see how it's hard to apporch him unless you run to him on the ground or D-Air him and fail then he grabs you. =/ ☆

☆ I've been hearing Kirby vs Olimar is a hard match up, but do not see it. All I can see is that all he can do is bait and punish, throwing too many Pikmin wouldn't be a good idea since you can attack them when they are thrown, even the Final Cutter, (a move I tend to spam really well), is useful when Olimar throws Pikmin. ☆ '

☆ I'm kind of sadden that Jungle Japes isn't legal everywhere, that's one of the best stages to take Olimar. I guess we still have Rainbow Cruise, Pokemon Stadium, Pokemon Stadium 2, Defino Plaza, and Frigate Orpheon over him while he has Norfair, and Luigi's Masion as true advantage stages. The reason I say both Stadiums is that his Pikmin tend to get out of place on some transformations, also while the stage changes, grabs are release automatically happens if you don't throw while the stage is changing. ☆

☆ And I suppose you guys want proof? You have to try it out yourself, I don't own any video equipment to show you.... though it might be better if I were to play L Cancel's Olimar. ☆

wow your stage list is pretty liberal...this is mine:

Stage List:

Starter

Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium 1
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

Counterpick

Brinstar
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Rainbow Cruise

I'm a bit wary about delfino though. Water saves him though he might lose pikmin which isn't much of a penalty. There are also some points where the ceiling gets a bit low.

Pink murder · Nov 23, 2009

SkyPirateCoud said:
I'm not going to say much after berserker referred to my pikmin as trash (and here I thought Kirby players were nice people), but I will say that leaving Inhale open IS far superior to copying on larger stages like FD and moving stages like RC.
I would also still call this matchup at 60-40 Oli's favor. Kirby DOES have a lot of trouble approaching.

Our recovery IS the second worst in the game and no sane Olimain would argue against that. We do have other glaring weaknesses, though.

I really don't think it's that much in Olimar's advantage...
Viper mentioned why I feel this way above. All in all, I'd say 55:45 Olimar.

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Sky Pirate · Nov 23, 2009

★Viper said:
☆ I'm kind of sadden that Jungle Japes isn't legal everywhere, that's one of the best stages to take Olimar. I guess we still have Rainbow Cruise, Pokemon Stadium, Pokemon Stadium 2, Defino Plaza, and Frigate Orpheon over him while he has Norfair, and Luigi's Masion as true advantage stages. The reason I say both Stadiums is that his Pikmin tend to get out of place on some transformations, also while the stage changes, grabs are release automatically happens if you don't throw while the stage is changing. ☆

Dude, quoting your posts makes such a mess. XD
I would be very careful with stage choice. Frigate gives us extra yellows and purples and Delfino gives us extra purples most of the time. PS1 allows for a few tricks and the water parts give us extra blues (blues are incredible IMO), but it also gives Kirby a few jab lock opportunities. Some Olimar players also know how to play REALLY gay on Japes. I would rethink marking it as the best stage to take Olimar to. Delfino is also a really good stage for Olimar.
I would pick PS2 or RC against Oli.

Pink murder · Nov 23, 2009

SkyPirateCoud said:
I would pick PS2 or RC against Oli.

You wouldn't happen to know what kind of Pikmen are usually plucked on RC would you?

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DtJ Hilt · Nov 23, 2009

My set against Y.b.M. about a month ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExTteCZ5NF0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knZbt_JFdZk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qykSXvBZrSk&feature=related

jiovanni007 said:
I know the lolimar mains will attest against this but lolimar literally has the 2nd worst recovery.

SkyPirateCoud said:
Our recovery IS the second worst in the game and no sane Olimain would argue against that. We do have other glaring weaknesses, though.

Ivysaur and Link both have a worse time recovering than Olimar does. His floatiness, ability to get an opponent off of a ledge, and length of the tether, as well as the bounce he gets from it, make recovering a lot easier for him than the other two.

★Viper said:
Pikmin spam? I'm pretty sure most of your attacks can hit the Pikmin when they reach you.

That's fine. But you do have to get them off. This will either diminish one of your moves that are valuable for you against us (such as bair), or leave you open.

★Viper said:
Grabs? Only if you stay on the ground and attack most of the time

pivot grabs are more important for you to focus on. When kirby, approaches, say with bair or dair or whatever, a pivot grab can easily punish your landing. Keep in mind, you do have to land. However, not landing is not going to benefit you. If we're not getting hit, we're doing alright. And considering, from my experience, the best way for you to damage Olimar is to get a set up out of landing after an aerial and landing a grab, fsmash, tilt, etc, on us, our pivot grabs prevent this to an extent.

★Viper said:
Olimar only has like two good air moves that's usesful on Kirby.

Every single yellow aerial can beat out kirby's air game. Red fair I think can as well, but I'm not sure. I assume purple does. Your dair can beat our uair, sans yellow (and maybe not red), but none of your other aerials can. Your bair does, however, beat out our ground approaches. I use to have problems giving in and trying to usmash kirby while in the air. Doesn't work. But after I realized that he's in the air and... can't really approach us from there, it wasn't as much of a problem.

★Viper said:
]That's a bad idea, Kirby can only throw Pikmin one at a time plus he has to be on the ground, while Olimar can throw them faster and he can throw them in the air. It's better to Star Shoot him under the stage than to copy.

If Kirby copies Olimar's ability you completely outcamp us. And us approaching against a pikmin spamming kirby is a nightmare. It doesnt matter if you can only throw them from the ground and only one of the time. They're solid. If Olimar had an always-solid projectile? Broken. The point in you having our ability is that you can do one thing to us that we normally never have to do. Approach.

★Viper said:
I'm kind of sadden that Jungle Japes isn't legal everywhere, that's one of the best stages to take Olimar.

umm... please do ^^; I really want to say "bad move, Olimar against kirby on japes, it's really good for Olimar", but considering it's a good stage for Kirby, and is rumored to be bad for Olimar, convincing you all without actually playing you on the stage isn't going to happen. Maybe Y.b.M. will come here and help me out haha. You'll notice in my second game against him he makes a clutch come back against me (the last kill was hilarious, it should have been 2-0 XD). He's since said he'll never ever take me to japes lol

★Viper said:
Defino Plaza

Probably one of our best stages. Don't take us here. Approaching us on Delfino is annoying and the pluck percentages are amazing. Most of the stage gives us an increase in purples, and a lot of it gives us more yellows and/or blues which are all great against kirby (especially purples).

★Viper said:
Frigate Orpheon

We're going to ban Rainbow Cruise so take us here. It's your best move by far.

★Viper said:
The reason I say both Stadiums is that his Pikmin tend to get out of place on some transformations

That's not a problem at all. That doesn't even happen often. And if it did, and it would be a problem (again, i don't know why it would), we have a whistle.

60:40 Olimar

Your ability to approach us is horrible. Recovering against kirby isn't as difficult as it would seem. Our whistle makes things so much better. Your best way to face us is to force us towards a ledge to limit our options, since we're extremely bad when we're close up against an opponent. Your counterpick pool is limited, your basically limited to taking us to Frigate or I guess Brinstar, but even those aren't that bad for us. As Coud said, extra purples and yellows on frigate are great.

Facing an Olimar that doesn't know when to stay the hell away, yeah, it's 50:50, or 60:40 Kirby, or whatever. But for an Olimar that knows what he can't punish, and won't try to, you don't have many options in approaching.

Gonna enjoy this discussion, haha. I love this matchup.

Edit:

Pink murder said:
You wouldn't happen to know what kind of Pikmen are usually plucked on RC would you?

There aren't any changes, sadly

Sky Pirate · Nov 23, 2009

You would play PS2 over Frigate, Hilt? I would have to say that you're mad.

Also, I never really thought about Link. Thank you for enlightening.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, doesn't bomb jump refreshing make Link's recovery better than Oli's?

DtJ Hilt · Nov 23, 2009

SkyPirateCoud said:
You would play PS2 over Frigate, Hilt? I would have to say that you're mad.

Also, I never really thought about Link. Thank you for enlightening.

Oh lol. I was just talking about PS1. Actually yeah, if PS2 is legal in your area (I know some places ban it, which I think is dumb) and you're comfortable on it, imo it's worse for Olimar than Frigate is. And thinking about it, it would be great for you in this matchup XD

Fino · Nov 24, 2009

Olimar can kill kirby at like 60%.... explain to me how it's a bad stage for olimar in this MU again?

Also... I would say that kirby has almost no safe options against olimar. None of your aerials are safe on shield... and GL approaching on the ground.
Kirby has to get olimar's copy ability to have a chance of winning.
Gonzo combo canalso be whistled out of and punished, so it's always an interesting mix-up of what you try to do knowing that. Most of the time olimar can just jab-jab before kirby can do anything, there's 15% right there.... if it leads into a grab, consider yourself close to ko% lol

~Fino

Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!

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