A Comprehensive Look at Jab (and other move) Mixups

(This is a WIP )

Index:
1. Intro
- What is a jab mixup?
- What is the purpose of this thread?
2. Primer
- Fixed knockback vs. variable knockback
- General launch trajectories
- Buffering and jab mixups
- a note to jab mixup victims
3. Data
- Key
- Fixed Jab advantages
- Variable Jab advantages




1. Intro:


What is a jab mixup?
A jab mixup is simply.... well, mixing up your jab! Instead of continuing the normal jab combo you instead interrupt it and lead into a more damaging attack, for an example a grab. For more on this I'd recommend checking out Pierce7d's lovely thread on the matter: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228216


What is the purpose of this thread?
Currently this thread lists jab frame advantages.

How is this useful?

It simply lays out your options, which is difficult to do otherwise due to the shear speed at which jab mixups take place. For an example, let's say that you play Mario, and keep you getting jab-> grabbed by Falco. Let's look at the frame data here. Falco has a -1 frame advantage on Mario if Mario choses to perform no air actions. So Mario can move one frame before Falco can after being hit by Falco's jab. Falco's grab comes out on frame 6. Mario's jab comes out on frame 2. Mario can simply jab Falco to save himself from being grabbed. Not only that, he can use any action 6 frames or less. He can dsmash, ftilt, spotdodge, roll, or even grab Falco in a beautiful ironic twist.





2. Primer


Fixed knockback vs variable knockback.
Fixed knockback attacks knock the opponent the same distance regardless of percent. Variable knockback attacks knock them back according to their percent, launching them further as their percent rises.

The implications of this?

Some jabs are fixed and others are variable. Fixed knockback jabs will always impart the same advantages, while variable knockback jabs will have changing advantages according to percent and decay of the move. They typically get more useful the more damaged the opponent is, up until a certain point.


General jab launch trajectories.
There are three general types of launch trajectories:
1. Upwards launch trajectory- This one pops the opponent up in the air, and is the most common type of jab launch trajectory. Your opponent can usually perform an action before they land on the ground.
2. Low angle launch trajectory- This one pops them up in a low arching trajectory. These generally yield very impressive advatages, but are rare and knock your opponent away from you.
3. Grounded trajectory- This one puts the opponent in stun without launching them into the air. These typically yield negative advantages...unless your name is Snake.


Buffering and jab mixups
There are a few things to note here
- You cannot buffer an action that interrupts a jab combo. You have to time it so that the action is inputted on the first IASA frame. Practice up!
- You cannot buffer an attack or an airdodge from hitstun. You can however, buffer a jump. Meaning that if you are hit with a jab that has an upward launch trajectory and you wish to perform an aerial action, jumping is your easiest bet.


Miscellaneous notes
-STOP SHIELDING AFTER BEING HIT BY A JAB. In the current metagame jab->grab is quite popular, and for this reason. There is almost always a better option, usually attacking before they can grab you or simply jumping before you hit the ground.
- Airdodging after being hit by a jab that has an upward launch trajectory can be useful, as doing so will cut the advantage by 2 frames. There is the issue of timing due to the lack of buffering however.




3. Data


Key:

HB#- stands for "Hitbox #. Some jabs have multiple hitboxes that launch foe's differently. Bowser's first jab, for instance, has 3 hitboxes. One very close to him, one in the middle, and one at the tip of his attack. The hitboxes are numbered from closest to the character using the jab to furthest away, so the hitbox that is closest to Bowser would be labeled "HB1"

Color coding
Each hitbox will have a color coding telling what kind of trajectory it has:
lime- Upwards launch trajectory.
yellow- Low angle launch trajectory
red- Grounded trajectory

Upwards launch trajectory specifics:
no action - the advantage you'll have if your opponent performs no aerial actions, thus landing on the ground with a hard landing.
aerial action - the advantage you'll have if your opponent performs an aerial action.
air time - how many frames your opponent is in the air able to perform an aerial aciton.




FIXED KNOCKBACK JABS:
(Was done on mario. Note that stuff will change according to weight (I think?) and fall speed. I plan to cover this in the future.)



Mario

First Jab
HB1: -2
HB2:
- no action: +4
- aerial action: -2
- air time: 2 frames

Second Jab
HB1: -4
HB2:
- no action: +5
- aerial action: -2
- air time: 3 frames

Second Jab after First Jab
- no action: +7
- air time: 5 frames



Luigi

First Jab
HB1:
- no action: +5
- aerial action: -1
- air time: 2 frames

Second Jab
HB1:
- no action +1
- aerial action: -4
- air time: 1 frame

Second Jab after First Jab
- no action: +5
- air time: 5 frames



Peach

First Jab
HB1
- no action: +1
- aerial action: -5
- air time: 2 frames



Bowser

First Jab
HB1: +9
HB2: +5
HB3:
- no action: +4
- aerial action: -3
- air time: 3 frames



Diddy Kong

First Jab
HB1:
- no action:+1
- aerial action: -5
- air time: 2 frames

Second Jab
HB1:
- no action: 0
- aerial action: -6
- air time: 2 frames

Second Jab after First Jab
- no action: +1
- air time: 4 frames



:shiek: Sheik

First Jab
HB1:
- no action: 0
- aerial action: -6
- air time: 2 frames



Toon Link

First Jab
HB2:
- no action: +6
- aerial action: 0
- air time: 2 frames



Zero Suit Samus

First Jab
HB1:
- no action: -2
- aerial action: -7
- air time: 1 frame

Second Jab
HB1: -9

Second Jab after First Jab: -5



Pit

Second Jab
HB1:
- no action: 0
- aerial action: -5
- air time: 1 frame



Dedede

First Jab
HB1:
- no action: -1
- aerial action: -9
- air time: 3 frames
HB2: -13



Olimar

First Jab
HB1: -18 LOL



Falco

First Jab
HB1:
- no action: -1
- aerial action: -6
- air time: 1 frame

Second Jab
HB1: +1

Second Jab after First Jab
- no action: +2
- aerial action: -3
- air time: 1 frame



Captain Falcon

First Jab
HB1:
- no action: +6
- aerial action: 0
- air time: 2 frames

Second Jab
HB1:
- no action: +5
- aerial action: -1
- air time: 2 frames

Second Jab after First Jab
- no action: +8
- air time: 5 frames



Squirtle

First Jab:
HB1: -6

Second Jab:
HB1: -9



Ivysaur

First Jab: -7 (I'm actually not sure if the launch trajectory is right. Ivysuck is easy to forget ^__^;;; )



Charizard

First Jab
HB1: -9
HB2:
- no action: -2
- aerial action: -7
- air time: 1 frames
HB3:
- no action: -1
- aerial action: -6
- air time: 1 frame



Lucario

First Jab
HB1: +11
HB2:
- no action: +5
- aerial action: -2
- air time: 3 frames

Second Jab
HB1: +16
HB2:
- no action: +7
- aerial action: +2
- air time: 1 frame

Second Jab after First Jab:
- no action: +8
- aerial time: 2 frames



Jigglypuff

First Jab:
HB1: -5



Ike

First Jab
HB1:
- no action: +16
- aerial action: +7
- air time: 5 frames
HB2:
- no action: +10
- aerial action: +5
- air time: 2 frames
HB3:
- no action: +8
- aerial action: +2
- air time: 2 frames

Second Jab
HB1:
- no action: +6
- aerial action: 0
- air time: (forgot to get :V)



Lucas

First Jab
HB1: +2
HB2:
- no action: -2
- aerial action: -6
- air time: 2 frames

Second Jab
HB1:+3
HB2:
- no action: +2
- aerial action: -5
- air time: 2 frames



G&W

First Jab
HB1:
- no action: +2
- aerial action: -3
- air time: 1 frame



Snake

First Jab
HB1:+3
HB2:
- no action: +6
- aerial action: 0
- air time: 2 frames

Second Jab
HB1: -8

1st hit of grounded ftilt
HB1: +2



Sonic
First Jab:
HB1: -7

Second Jab:
HB1:-10




VARIABLE KNOCKBACK ATTACKS:



Wario

First Jab
0%:
- no action: 0
- aerial action: -5
- air time: 1 frame
30%:
- no action: +4
- aerial action: -2
- air time: 2 frames
60%:
- no action: +8
- aerial action: +2
- air time: 2 frames
90%:
- no action: +12
- aerial action: +5
- air time: 3 frames
120%:
- no action: +18
- aerial action: +9
- air time: 5 frames
150%:
- no action: +24
- aerial action: +12
- air time: 10 frames



ROB

First Jab
HB1
0%: -5
30%: -2
60%: +1
90%: +4
120%: +11
150%: +14

HB2
0%: -11
30%: -8
60%: -5
90%: -2
120%: +1
150%: +4

HB3
0%:
- no action: -6
- aerial action: -12
- air time: 2 frames
30%:
- no action: -2
- aerial action: -8
- air time: 1 frame
60%:
- no action: +1
- aerial action: -5
- air time: 2 frames
90%:
- no action: +5
- aerial action: -2
- air time: 3 frames
120%:
- no action: +9
- aerial action: +1
- air time: 4 frames
150%:
- no action: +15
- aerial action: +4
- air time: 7 frames



Meta Knight

First Hit of Ftilt

HB1
0%: -9
30%: -4
60%: -0
90%: +9
120%: +14
150%: attack can now be DI'd

HB2
0%:
- no action: -6
- aerial action: -11
- air time: 1 frame
30%:
- no action: -1
- aerial action: -7
- air time: 2 frames
60%:
- no action: +4
- aerial action: -2
- air time: 4 frames
90%:
- no action: +12
- aerial action: +3
- air time: 7 frames
120%:
- no action: +19
- aerial action: +7
- air time: 10
150%: attack can now be DI'd

HB3
0%:
- no action: -5
- aerial action: -11
- air time: 2 frames
30%:
- no action: 0
- aerial action: -7
- air time: 3 frames
60%:
- no action: +5
- aerial action: -2
- air time: 5 frames
90%:
- no action: +13
- aerial action: +3
- air time: 8 frames
120%:
- no action: +19
- aerial action: +7
- air time: 15 frames
150%: attack can now be DI'd

Reserved

10 reserveds

This is probably overkill, buuuut reserved

This is great :O

however, colorblind request to change Cyan to another color, lol

Tenki said:

This is great :O

however, colorblind request to change Cyan to another color, lol

Click to expand...

xD I was worried about that. I'll do so after I eat some food. I guess I should change red also......

Red is different enough from everything else to see, lol.

Cyan looks too much like white ;o

For "Second Jab After First Jab", you're talking about if I jab combo jab1 into jab2? So basically, for Lucario, I will get 11 frames of advantage (enough to true combo into forcepalm if buffered?) if I hit with the close hitbox of jab1. If I combo it into jab2 though, I'll get only 8 frames of advantage (not enough to combo into anything but another jab or a grab, but still better than the far-hitbox of either attack alone). However, if I purposely whiff jab1 and hit with the close-hitbox of jab2 (difficult due to Lucario's large-hitbox jab on jab1 and the gigantic invisible hitbox of jab2), I'll get not 8, but a whopping 16 frames of advantage, which gives them a mere 1 frame to input the shield input to avoid getting hit by a buffered dsmash(which hits on frame 17), or can they buffer the shield for that?

On the flip side, if I hit with the farther away hitbox of jab1, I have a mere 5 frames of advantage if they make no inputs, will be stuck in the animation for 2 frames after the opponent escapes with their jump during the 3 frame window, ensuring them a safe escape?

Similarly, if I hit with the gigantic far-hitbox of jab2, I will have 7 frames of advantage if they make no inputs, and will still have a 2 frame advantage even if by some miracle they input their jump during the single frame of "air time" that they can perform it?

I'm really hoping I'm wrong for the first paragraph and that you'll tell me that I can jab once, jab again and get a free 16 frame advantage.

Also, two other questions. Can you buffer a shield to come up on the frame after they land, or are they still unable to buffer during their period of hitstun, forcing them to either shield on a 1 frame window or eat a buffered Lucario Dsmash? Can the jabber buffer their next move, so that Lucario can say jab1 then a successful forcepalm(which grabs on frame 11) relatively easily and safely?

^ eh, sorry, I forgot to tell what that meant.


It's just the advantage/other stuff you'll have (on mario) when you use jab 1 and then jab 2 as fast as possible (aka the most common way you'll use jab 2).

The "Second Jab" statistic on the other hand is just that, the second jab being used on a grounded opponent.


Does that make sense? :V


EDIT: just saw your edit Kitamerby; I'll address it in a bit.

Sonic has absolutely no options unless he completes the jab combo.
XD So sad.

¿Still with me chucklenuts?

Good thread

Er, I edited my post above, so answers to the questions would be nice.

Also, you should probably to finish it off use one of the jabs on each character, or at least GnW and Bowser, two characters from opposite side of the weight spectrums to cap it all off. It seems like Lucario would be a good choice for Trajectory 2, and that maybe Luigi (or Lucario again? <3) would be another good choice for Trajectory 1 testing.


On a side note, you are my hero. kthnx

Kitamerby said:

For "Second Jab After First Jab", you're talking about if I jab combo jab1 into jab2? So basically, for Lucario, I will get 11 frames of advantage (enough to true combo into forcepalm if buffered?) if I hit with the close hitbox of jab1.

Click to expand...

Yes you will have a 11 frame adv if you hit with HB1 of his first jab. Note that your opponent has to practically be inside you for it to connect though.

Kitamerby said:

If I combo it into jab2 though, I'll get only 8 frames of advantage (not enough to combo into anything but another jab or a grab, but still better than the far-hitbox of either attack alone).

Click to expand...

Correct. If you somehow manage to hit with HB1 it would be best to follow up with something different rather than jabbing again.

Kitamerby said:

However, if I purposely whiff jab1 and hit with the close-hitbox of jab2 (difficult due to Lucario's large-hitbox jab on jab1 and the gigantic invisible hitbox of jab2), I'll get not 8, but a whopping 16 frames of advantage, which gives them a mere 1 frame to input the shield input to avoid getting hit by a buffered dsmash(which hits on frame 17), or can they buffer the shield for that?

Click to expand...

Correct again . If you somehow manage to do that you'll end up with a 16 frame adv. Your opponent can buffer their shield though yes (which is what people usually do, thus the popularity of jab -> grab).

Kitamerby said:

On the flip side, if I hit with the farther away hitbox of jab1, I have a mere 5 frames of advantage if they make no inputs, will be stuck in the animation for 2 frames after the opponent escapes with their jump during the 3 frame window, ensuring them a safe escape?

Click to expand...

Yup, they will probably be able to escape. Note that you are essentially forcing them into the air though..... depending on the matchup this could yield results far greater than simply finishing the combo would have.

Kitamerby said:

Similarly, if I hit with the gigantic far-hitbox of jab2, I will have 7 frames of advantage if they make no inputs, and will still have a 2 frame advantage even if by some miracle they input their jump during the single frame of "air time" that they can perform it?

Click to expand...

Right, but unlike airdodging and attacking jumping can be buffered from hitstun, meaning that if they want to jump out they easily can.

Kitamerby said:

I'm really hoping I'm wrong for the first paragraph and that you'll tell me that I can jab once, jab again and get a free 16 frame advantage.

Click to expand...

Hm, you may be able to do this actually..... I don't remember how far reaching Jab 2 HB1 is. IIRC it should actually work if you catch them close with Jab 1 (not Jab 1 HB1 though; that'll push them too far out)

Kitamerby said:

Also, two other questions. Can you buffer a shield to come up on the frame after they land, or are they still unable to buffer during their period of hitstun, forcing them to either shield on a 1 frame window or eat a buffered Lucario Dsmash? Can the jabber buffer their next move, so that Lucario can say jab1 then a successful forcepalm(which grabs on frame 11) relatively easily and safely?

Click to expand...

Yes, shields don't even have to be buffered... you can just hold down the button and it will come out whenever it can.

Unfortunately the jabber doesn't have buffering to aid him/her. I forgot to point that out in the OP >_____>.

Kitamerby said:

Er, I edited my post above, so answers to the questions would be nice.

Also, you should probably to finish it off use one of the jabs on each character, or at least GnW and Bowser, two characters from opposite side of the weight spectrums to cap it all off. It seems like Lucario would be a good choice for Trajectory 2, and that maybe Luigi (or Lucario again? <3) would be another good choice for Trajectory 1 testing.


On a side note, you are my hero. kthnx

Click to expand...

Aye, I'm not sure exactly how I'm going to do it at this point (I want to get basic variable knockback stuff done first) but I plan on making this much more comprehensive. At the very least listing advantages against the metagame's top threats.

Glad you found this useful

hotgarbage said:

Hm, you may be able to do this actually..... I don't remember how far reaching Jab 2 HB1 is. IIRC it should actually work if you catch them close with Jab 1 (not Jab 1 HB1 though; that'll push them too far out)

Click to expand...

I think the Lucario boards have some testing to do then! =D
I'm pretty sure Lucario steps pretty far out when using jab2. It may be possible!

Yes, shields don't even have to be buffered... you can just hold down the button and it will come out whenever it can.

Unfortunately the jabber doesn't have buffering to aid him/her. I forgot to point that out in the OP >_____>.

Click to expand...

CRAP. So, to be able to combo jab1 into forcepalm, I'd have to actually perform the forcepalm on frame 1 (forcepalm connects on frame 11)? Would crouch canceling affect it/allow me to buffer a forcepalm?

Aye, I'm not sure exactly how I'm going to do it at this point (I want to get basic variable knockback stuff done first) but I plan on making this much more comprehensive. At the very least listing advantages against the metagame's top threats.

Click to expand...

Hey, that's good. Luckily, the top threats are all over the place on the weight scale, so probably MK, Snake, DDD and maybe Marth would be a good start.


Hey, that reminds me, how DOES Jab canceling affect this?

Kitamerby said:

CRAP. So, to be able to combo jab1 into forcepalm, I'd have to actually perform the forcepalm on frame 1 (forcepalm connects on frame 11)? Would crouch canceling affect it/allow me to buffer a forcepalm?

Click to expand...

Aye, you'd have to be frame perfect . It's a set timing though, so with practice it should be doable at least some of the time.

Hm, that's a good question in regards to crouch canceling. I'm not sure how that would work; I'll have to test it when I get the chance.

Kitamerby said:

Hey, that reminds me, how DOES Jab canceling affect this?

Click to expand...

What exactly do you mean by "jab canceling" ?_____?.

hotgarbage said:

What exactly do you mean by "jab canceling" ?_____?.

Click to expand...

By jab canceling I meant crouch canceling, blah.

A jab cancel is when you do something other than the rest of the jab combo. So, Jab->Grab would a jab cancelled grab, Jab->Tilt would be a jab cancelled tilt, etc.

Also, I knew Bowser's jab was good, but 3rd best? Epic.

Meta Knight

First Hit of Ftilt

HB1
0%: -9
30%: -4
60%: -0
90%: +9
120%: +14

So that means that ftilt to dash attack is possible from 90% onwards?

JayDeth said:

A jab cancel is when you do something other than the rest of the jab combo. So, Jab->Grab would a jab cancelled grab, Jab->Tilt would be a jab cancelled tilt, etc.

Also, I knew Bowser's jab was good, but 3rd best? Epic.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I was surprised by that myself heh.

Corrupted said:

Meta Knight

First Hit of Ftilt

HB1
0%: -9
30%: -4
60%: 0
90%: +9
120%: +14

So that means that ftilt to dash attack is possible from 90% onwards?

Click to expand...

Yes, it should work. (I say "should" because I don't remember how far away it knocks his opponent)

MK's dash attack comes out on frame 5, so it should work at percents a bit lower than 90 as well. Somewhere between 120 and 150 the attack has enough knockback for it to be DI'd though, ruining the setup.

Also note that this only works with the first hitbox of his ftilt.



In other news, I'll try and update this when I can *points to sig D:*. Some characters like Link and Pit have some very good variable knockback jabs, so it should be cool to look into those

Wow, Bowser's jab is really good if you hit HB1. How close is that hitbox to him?

If you hit HB1 and get the +9, you get a guaranteed Klaw I believe (comes out on frame 8, I think). Not too useful if HB1 is really small, though.

Like the others the person probably has to be inside you to hit with HB1 in which case UpB is probably a better option. It's nice still.

Aye, to hit with HB1 your opponent has to pretty much be inside Bowser's head. That is doable though, as an opponent can stand there and not get pushed away.


Jab 1 HB1 -> Klaw is guaranteed frame wise.... but when I tested it on Mario the hit put him just out of range. However, HB1 -> dash for 1 frame -> Klaw worked.

what happened to pits 1st jab?

May I use some of your data in my thread garbage?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239217

Arturito_Burrito said:

what happened to pits 1st jab?

Click to expand...

I have yet to get info on it. It has variable knockback, so it'll go in that section when I get around to it.

saviorslegacy said:

May I use some of your data in my thread garbage?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239217

Click to expand...

Be my guest