Luc's punish game, lets break this **** down (prep stage)

Timbers · Jun 10, 2009

So I've been meaning to put this thread up for a while, but it wasn't until recently did these boards actually bother to put any effort into the metagame.

Lucario's lack of punishers is a huge fault in his game, and I definitely think we should be looking more into this to help better ourselves. I personally feel like I have a very good grasp on what should be used in a lot of situations where a punish opportunity arises, but it still feels like that arsenal is lacking and so I definitely want the entire board to pool their ideas together.

What my goal is really is to break down every one of Lucarios matchups, and go through each of his opponent's moves, and describe (or at least list) every thing Lucario can do to this opponent's move on block, spotdodge, and airdodge.

Before I actually start any of this though, I want to know what people think, and what can be added to this. Ideas I'd like to discuss before starting this is:

-Is this even worth the time and effort? I personally feel it is, but if the majority of the board is against it I won't even bother.

-Who would be willing to help? I still have to run that matchup thread and as it is I'm letting it fall behind kinda bad. I don't mind running this but I don't want to be the only one compiling it either.

-How should we do it? I originally thought we could assign certain characters to certain players and have them compile summaries without any discussion, but then I wondered if it'd be better to simply discuss one character at a time and go through their moveset. The latter would obviously take a lot longer and the main reason I'm against it, but it's up to you.

hough123 · Jun 10, 2009

Oh snap, double post.
See my below comment.
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

AlexoftheAura · Jun 10, 2009

Personally, I think this is a good idea unfortunately I lack reliable friends so I may not be able to help with testing.

hough123 · Jun 10, 2009

I think that it'd be worth it. I'd personally like to know which moves are great for punishing beside the predictible AS.

You should give the responsibility of discussing each character to a handful of board members. They could then each make a topic to discuss the character as to get the community's opinion. When they are done, you could assign them a new character to discuss in a new thread and so on.

culexus・wau · Jun 10, 2009

It would DEFINETELY be worth it. we need to find punishers besides AS, and quickly because it sucks if someone whiffs something and you can't punish it :< and I find that happening a lot in my matches.

HyperEnergy · Jun 10, 2009

Might I suggest discussing characters in blocks? I dislike discussing one character at a time because many people might not have any experience against a specific character and when it comes time to talk about that character, some people simply can't contribute anything. Discussing multiple characters at once solves this problem somewhat and it makes things go faster.

iRJi · Jun 10, 2009

Honestly, this is something we all really need to look in to because Timbers is completely right, we have issues on punishing ****. Its not like he does not have punishing options, but we do not chose the best ones for the situation at hand. I think this is needed. A Suggestion though that might make it easier would be to combined this with the character matchup thread, and simply not have the character matchup closed until we go over the enemies options, lucarios options, and what Lucario can do to punish correctly in the match up. Of course you have my help btw, but isn't that a given? =]

Edit: I am also on board with breaking down characters to certain people. It will be a lot faster, but information could be less accurate. but that's why testings is always handy. What we could do is split the characters, test what needs to be tested, everyone posts what they found out and then we rotate and test what the other people already found. If we do it like that we can make sure all information is accurate, or at least closer to it.

G-Beast · Jun 11, 2009

i will help out with this whenever i can. more then willingly

#HBC | Red Ryu · Jun 11, 2009

Just like the Link boards I'll be here to help whenever I can.

phi1ny3 · Jun 11, 2009

You know I'll help lol. Love anything like this.

Aurasmash14 · Jun 11, 2009

Ill do anything to help. I love metagame threads.

Timbers · Jun 11, 2009

iRJi said:
Honestly, this is something we all really need to look in to because Timbers is completely right, we have issues on punishing ****. Its not like he does not have punishing options, but we do not chose the best ones for the situation at hand. I think this is needed. A Suggestion though that might make it easier would be to combined this with the character matchup thread, and simply not have the character matchup closed until we go over the enemies options, lucarios options, and what Lucario can do to punish correctly in the match up. Of course you have my help btw, but isn't that a given? =]

Edit: I am also on board with breaking down characters to certain people. It will be a lot faster, but information could be less accurate. but that's why testings is always handy. What we could do is split the characters, test what needs to be tested, everyone posts what they found out and then we rotate and test what the other people already found. If we do it like that we can make sure all information is accurate, or at least closer to it.

I'd prefer to keep the two seperated because discussion will get super cluttered and matchup discussion is open to the entire community. I'd like to keep this thread in the hands of the few Lucarios here I can trust and know won't give me stupid info.

I'm not sure how I want to break up characters. I like the idea of doing a chunk of them at a time, and I don't think it'd be too hard to keep info accurate if the group stays small.

This leads me to the third thing I was gonna say, about the Luc back room. I want to do this but I don't really read **** here a lot. You and Stauffy are like the only two regulars I know offhand that I know I can trust. I know there's more but I don't read posts really.

I might make a thread about the Luc back room in a bit about people who want to join and I can check over their posts and see if I'd want them in there, but like yeah there's only 2-3 people I know who I really would want to bring in there right now.

phi1ny3 · Jun 11, 2009

Daw, no SCIENCE! in the Back room? That's okay. I'm willing to help a bit anyways for this thing, I've got Wii+data to go, and I'm raring to go on theory (loving it).

Timbers · Jun 11, 2009

i actually havent seen any of your posts outside of the chatroom phi1 lol, no disrespect meant.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Jun 11, 2009

Backroom is probably too pro for me, lol.

It sucks living in Wisconsin where little to no Brawl tournaments are held that often.

phi1ny3 · Jun 11, 2009

Wait, I'm confused, the posts in what? You don't seriously mean that you've been making all these refuations of all my posts without reading them, have you? Do you mean the fact that I don't go on IRC much, or on the matchup thread much? I've been a tad busy, plus some of the characters I've had much less an idea about (ex. Zamus, I went only on theoretical stuff). I've been doing all sorts of things on many threads, so I'm a bit perplexed at what you mean :dizzy:

Timbers · Jun 11, 2009

I just want backroom to consist of people who actually put time and effort into what they say and not just talk about things that they think might work if they actually ever played this game.

Basically as long as I like you more than DJbrowny I'll welcome you happily to any backroom that may be made in the future. Which is like everyone except 2 people.

phi1ny3 said:
Wait, I'm confused, the posts in what? You don't seriously mean that you've been making all these refuations of all my posts without reading them, have you? Do you mean the fact that I don't go on IRC much, or on the matchup thread much? I've been a tad busy, plus some of the characters I've had much less an idea about (ex. Zamus, I went only on theoretical stuff). I've been doing all sorts of things on many threads, so I'm a bit perplexed at what you mean

I don't really remember reading any of your posts lol.

I don't read anything in the matchup thread until I compile them. And I haven't done the ZSS one so.

phi1ny3 · Jun 11, 2009

That explains things.
Well, I've recently been playing more and more, so now I don't have to worry about only backing stuff up on theoretical assertions and facts and actually use player experience.

So tl;dr You'll be hearing more stuff from me and it will be all chill and good.
and no: I didn't really say much of anything on the Zamus matchup, hence why I've lately been not doing stuff (the previous matchups I remember saying a lot and it often didn't get into the quotes except in the marth or MK compiled threads).

D. Disciple · Jun 11, 2009

I'm totally for this topic. Since punishing is what I love to do, and always have ideas of what moves to use in certain situations. Based on Lucario and Opponent's % in damage.

hough123 · Jun 11, 2009

I'll still go with my previous idea of a multi-tiered system:

The backroom is kinda what killed Lucario in the first place. The "Leaders" of the board gave up on developing the metagame, (bar a select few), and the rest followed. Unless the backroom has some of these free-thinkers, I'm against it.

Fizzle · Jun 11, 2009

I assume you're going for something like this?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211007

Given, Lucario has neither the range nor the speed of Marth, but it's still a pretty daunting task to do for EVERY character. Plus, we know how projects work out on the Lucario boards... they never get finished, ever.

I think this is a nice idea for a project, but I don't see the point in doing all of this work. Lucario's punishing game is incredibly linear and can be summed up pretty easily:

If they're in front of you: jab, nair (slow, only on taller chars), fair (slow)
If they're behind you: dair, utilt

The majority of the time you're going to be jabbing or dairing. Grab is not reliable oos at high levels of play. It's way too easy to stay out of Luc's grab range.

I think learning which works best in a situation is part of getting better as a player.

phi1ny3 · Jun 11, 2009

lol there was hardly a backroom at all, it seemed that IRC was more of it than anything else lol. Still, it's good to know now that this stuff is taking off, and hopefully, a similar trend will occur in the BR.

Fizzle said:
I assume you're going for something like this?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211007

Given, Lucario has neither the range nor the speed of Marth, but it's still a pretty daunting task to do for EVERY character. Plus, we know how projects work out on the Lucario boards... they never get finished, ever.

I think this is a nice idea for a project, but I don't see the point in doing all of this work. Lucario's punishing game is incredibly linear and can be summed up pretty easily:

If they're in front of you: jab, nair (slow, only on taller chars), fair (slow)
If they're behind you: dair, utilt

The majority of the time you're going to be jabbing or dairing. Grab is not reliable oos at high levels of play. It's way too easy to stay out of Luc's grab range.

I think learning which works best in a situation is part of getting better as a player.

I think there's more than that, like vs. ADs, lucario has a lot of stuff (like using an aerial after fair or uair in the AD direction since it has enough speed, ftilt, etc.). I thought this too, until I realized marths don't have to work nearly as hard for this stuff (it's called DB, you can pretty much make your punish game on this alone).

iRJi · Jun 11, 2009

Timbers said:
I'd prefer to keep the two seperated because discussion will get super cluttered and matchup discussion is open to the entire community. I'd like to keep this thread in the hands of the few Lucarios here I can trust and know won't give me stupid info.

I'm not sure how I want to break up characters. I like the idea of doing a chunk of them at a time, and I don't think it'd be too hard to keep info accurate if the group stays small.

This leads me to the third thing I was gonna say, about the Luc back room. I want to do this but I don't really read **** here a lot. You and Stauffy are like the only two regulars I know offhand that I know I can trust. I know there's more but I don't read posts really.

I might make a thread about the Luc back room in a bit about people who want to join and I can check over their posts and see if I'd want them in there, but like yeah there's only 2-3 people I know who I really would want to bring in there right now.

That's fine ^_^. about phil, I think he is a person that is trust worthy for the backroom, but that's my only recommendation from the boards so far other then the obvious you. I am also not saying that you need to include him (>_<) but i think if we do make a backroom, that he would help benefit it. Making a thread about it and seeing who is a respectful and helpful poster is a good idea though, and you already know I am down for it ^_^

Fizzle said:
I assume you're going for something like this?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211007

Given, Lucario has neither the range nor the speed of Marth, but it's still a pretty daunting task to do for EVERY character. Plus, we know how projects work out on the Lucario boards... they never get finished, ever.

I think this is a nice idea for a project, but I don't see the point in doing all of this work. Lucario's punishing game is incredibly linear and can be summed up pretty easily:

If they're in front of you: jab, nair (slow, only on taller chars), fair (slow)
If they're behind you: dair, utilt

The majority of the time you're going to be jabbing or dairing. Grab is not reliable oos at high levels of play. It's way too easy to stay out of Luc's grab range.

I think learning which works best in a situation is part of getting better as a player.

Some of that is true, but that's only looking at the surface of things. Other then noticing the obvious, its always better to see what options your might have missed. Until lately, Lucario's players in general have been just doing the obvious, without exploring their other possible options that we might have. The whole purpose of the thread is to explain and explore our possible options for maximum damage or possible setup options out of someone's attacks. I personally think this thread is mandatory to help better our game.

hough123 · Jun 11, 2009

lol there was hardly a backroom at all, it seemed that IRC was more of it than anything else lol. Still, it's good to know now that this stuff is taking off, and hopefully, a similar trend will occur in the BR.

I didn't mean a literal backroom, and the IRC equaling a backroom explains everything.

tedward2000 · Jun 11, 2009

The IRC as a backroom? Bwa ha ha.
Nothing would get done, and saying the IRC is the backroom is even worse.

At times we talk about brawl and it does get in depth, but none of that is recorded and none of that is ever used minus the person who asked about it.
The IRC is a Chatroom, not a Backroom.
-t2

Col. Stauffenberg · Jun 11, 2009

Timbers said:
This leads me to the third thing I was gonna say, about the Luc back room. I want to do this but I don't really read **** here a lot. You and Stauffy are like the only two regulars I know offhand that I know I can trust. I know there's more but I don't read posts really.

Aw, I wub you too Timbuhs.

And yes I'll be happy to help out with this thread just as soon as I know how. >>

hough123 · Jun 11, 2009

tedward2000 said:
The IRC as a backroom? Bwa ha ha.
Nothing would get done, and saying the IRC is the backroom is even worse.

At times we talk about brawl and it does get in depth, but none of that is recorded and none of that is ever used minus the person who asked about it.
The IRC is a Chatroom, not a Backroom.
-t2

I know, that's why I said it explained Lucario's drop and the boards dieing.
Assuming you were talking to me :laugh:

|RK| · Jun 11, 2009

I'll help with whatever whenever I can.

Alus · Jun 11, 2009

Anyone want to try to find links to U-smash?

iRJi · Jun 12, 2009

tedward2000 said:
The IRC as a backroom? Bwa ha ha.
Nothing would get done, and saying the IRC is the backroom is even worse.

At times we talk about brawl and it does get in depth, but none of that is recorded and none of that is ever used minus the person who asked about it.
The IRC is a Chatroom, not a Backroom.
-t2

Thats because the people that are in there like to goof around. IDK about anyone else but when it comes to games i am a serious person with a positive attitude. I smile a lot, am polite, and act goofy in a serious manner. it really comes down to the people who run things.

Timbers · Jun 12, 2009

the IRC doesn't even talk about smash lol.

and if you talk about smash people normally don't like you

I want to get a Luc back room started before I start this project, I've decided. Expect a slew of threads from me in the near future.

phi1ny3 · Jun 12, 2009

I think my attempt at a joke was not a good one. I would have used a "!!!1!eleven!!!1111!one" sort of thing, but then it would be too obvious. I was hoping I was clear that the obvious distinction was these boards were so dead, there was more lively stuff in IRC. I should know, I kept refreshing in vain hoping there would be more activity.

Edit: Lucario's pivot grab slide is pretty good. I frankly have loved it so much, it's like a moonwalk or something.
btw, why is Milln so not here much anymore?

Browny · Jun 12, 2009

because he doesnt play the game anymore?

lol lucario backroom. its called social group 737

phi1ny3 · Jun 12, 2009

What!?!
Nooooooooo!
Did he leave for SF4 or something? Or was life calling?

D. Disciple · Jun 12, 2009

Been playing a lot of DoTa and Warcraft 3 lately, and he's told me that he's felt in a slump with Lucario lately.

Browny · Jun 12, 2009

well that happens when you dont play the game >_<

Aurasmash14 · Jun 12, 2009

if Milln really has left for good.... that adds to the list of the leaving lucs T_T whhyyy?!

|RK| · Jun 12, 2009

Timbers said:
I want to get a Luc back room started before I start this project, I've decided. Expect a slew of threads from me in the near future.

>_> You know exactly why I quoted this.

DRK · Jun 12, 2009

D. Disciple said:
Been playing a lot of DoTa and Warcraft 3 lately, and he's told me that he's felt in a slump with Lucario lately.

Especially after coming in 15th at his last (IIRC) tournament, Game Galaxy.

Anyways, if there's anything i can do to help...

Timbers · Jun 12, 2009

RK Joker said:
>_> You know exactly why I quoted this.

im assuming you quoted it because you tried getting the luc back room up and running several months ago and only like one other person joined.

Luc's punish game, lets break this **** down (prep stage)

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