Lucario vs. ZSS (13) Export

phi1ny3 · Jun 11, 2009

Zero Suit Samus

Matchup:

50:50

General info:

Quote:

FlameWaveK said:
Things to Note:
ZSS's SideB outranges our Fsmash, but is slower.
Until around 50% her Full charged Laser will cancel out FCAS.
BAS gets canceled out by her laser, although they swerve around it quite frequently.
ZSS has some invincibility on her DownB, and the sex kick out of it has ridiculous priority.
Tippered SideB Cancels out Any FCAS until 170%
Her Jab is one frame >>
Uptilt ***** Sidedodges and sets up any of her upwards moves.
You don't want to be above her. period.
Dsmash sets you up Bair/Fair
She won't kill you early, but she's hella hard to hit :<
Dsmash & Laser hitstun is ********.

Quote:

Samuelson said:
Most Zero Suits that i talk to don't really consider her Side B a kill move. It's more of a spacing tool, most of the time they will try to kill with Uair, Bair or sometimes Fair. Of course Side B CAN kill but it's usually so stale. Try your best to avoid Dsmash when you're in the 130's

Also, don't get hit by the offstage dsmash -> flipspike, or Kewky will never let it down and you'll feel like an idiot. DI and try to get back to the stage, or avoid it, K? It just means you can't be lazy with your ES ledgesnap.
What to avoid:

Quote:

ShippoFoxFire said:
As a ZSS second, you have a lot of whip to avoid.
Like Flame said, her side B outranges us, and that ****ing jab.
ZSS is NOT the character to be fighting in a close range. She has one of the best boxing abilities(to my knowledge)
The F-smash she has also punishes roll-dodges, and has some kill power.
F-ck that bair.
In the air, you do though have the advantage IFF(if and only if) she is NOT below you
If you can recognize ZSS is charging up a move.
She has little lag on some of her moves(dash attack into jab combo lolz)
^^^ Watch out for that.
If you mess up a wall fo fairs, you WILL get nair'd.
I'd personally say ZSS has a SLIGHT advantage, 55/45, if not 50/50

Kewkky said:
IMO...

Uair is her most amazing aerial combo move ever, so once we get you offground, expect AT LEAST 1 uair. After that, I mostly expect the lucario to retaliate with a dair, so I end up UpB spiking them to the ground, whereas I can bair them while they bounce when they hit the floor (or Uair them again if they tech it/do something awesome to avoid the bair)... And if you're not careful and are at high% or high up, it can kill you. It also ends faster than an airdodge, so if you try airdodging one, the ZSS will wait out your invincibility frames and hit you with another.

Dsmash not only earns us an easy 20% minimum on you guys (double dsmash, dsmash>sideB...), but we can also spike and kill you at ridiculously low %s if you do not meteor cancel (even at 0%, if we dsmash you offstage, we can spike you for an easy risk-less kill) by this fashion, DI or no DI. The random dsmashes we might set you up might also lead to a successful sideB at high %s, meaning you just lost a stock if we hit you.

The neutral B (paralyzer) sets up for dash attacks, which sets up for tilts/more dash attacks/jabs/rolldodge mindgames for gaining space. It can also be simply used to gain space and put them where you want them to be (forcing them to evade/shield the paralyzer will result in us following up with an attack or a mindgame, since we just baited a defensive response from you), which for ZSS, will lead to a nice string of attacks... Also, easy %, even if it's close to none.

Utilt and dtilt are both used to send you into the air, where we can follow you and uair you before you have a chance to react. They're also good for geining vertical space between us, and if you try to dair her right after she utilts you, be prepared in case she powershields your dair and goes for yet another utilt (I do this A LOT).

Ftilt is a short/mid ranegd move which I use to gain easy space between me and my opponent (including you, Lucario!). Might not do much %, but the range is perfect for getting them off of you, as well as its speed... And a downwards angled ftilt can trip you, setting up for a sideB/dsmash techchase (sideB if they roll away, dsmash if they roll behind you/stand up).

Bair and fair are kill moves, so be careful when she has you offstage and you're at high %s! She can either go for a bair, fair, uair, sideB, or mindgamed ledge dsmash (I even go as far as attempting to upB spike, and I've actually done it a couple of times!)... The best thing you could do is recover while spamming fairs so she would be only limited to sideB'ing you, which you can airdodge thanks to your fair's fast animation.

Our upB has AMAZINGLY long reach when we're recovering onto the ledge, WAY more than wha it looks like when we're actually attached to the ledge. Not only that, it's tip can spike, setting up for combos/strings, boost jumping (upB gives us a nice boost in our jumping height), and offstage spiking (which is amazingly easy to do). Our downB can spike if we do the flipkick, which has priority over a LOT of moves (but you can probably outrange her kick), PLUS she can footstool anything out of it, even your edgehogs (so don't depend on edgehog gimps against ZSS).

Nair is a good "get off of me!" move, as well as a nice mixup if we want to use something different. It hits in front AND behind us, so it's highly improbable that we'll miss a nair if the ZSS user uses it in smart fashions.

How to win:

Quote:

IrisKong said:
In all honesty, paying the defence game here is where its at. I spent some time playing as ZSS so I may just have a advantage to how to deal with her, but the people that have replied to the matchup seem to be pretty knowledgable. That being said, we out camp her, period. AS beats stun pistol. I agree that a smart zss will just powershield, but you can be very very annoying with AS (most people call it acting like a nob and spamming, but oh well) . Dont try and beat her with smashes, her overb beats our fsmash (our best smash) and dsmashing is just asking to get stun combo'd. Her air game is better DEPENDING ON HOW YOU DEAL WITH IT! Our Dair beats her Uair (her best air) Also, her Dair is terrible and is easy to punish, she wont be Dairing if you are under her, at least not likly. So you can Uair and probably kill her becuase she is in no way heavy. Manage your aura, know when you can use the right things... All in all I would say its a pretty even match up as long as you can be patient with AS. As for levels, moving levels will cause some irritationg for zss. and frigate, one of our best, it bad for her as well.

Quote:

Kewkky said:
Get rid of the pieces. A ZSS who uses them obviously has more knowledge on it than a Lucario main, because she deals with her piece games IN EVERY SINGLE GAME, earning her more experience with the whole item strategy. I glidetoss/normal toss/zdrop the pieces until my opponent throws them offstage, otherwise I just take control of them back (I always expect glide tosses from glidetossing characters, so I shield and evade/punish when they DO glidetoss).

Helpful tips:

Quote:

Snakeee said:
Heh, nah I'm not going to do that, I'm too nice . Besides, he'll figure it out pretty quickly. For one, the jab combo does NOT work on ZSS. She can jab out of the last hit or the grab.

Next, her close up game does not have to rely on spacing d-smash/side B/paralyzer. Falling up airs, b-airs (he mentioned this), and her f-tilt are all good choices.

A lot of her strength in this match up is with her out of shield options. Depending on where Lucario is, and what he is doing, there are different options. For his d-air she can up tilt if he is low enough, if not she can up air him usually. It's guaranteed if she can powershield it at least.

On another note, I'd say Lucario's aura sphere's are his greatest asset against her. Using it strategically can really mess up ZSS' spacing.

Well that's it for now. I'll try to post with more info on the match up. I'd say it's about even at this point or possibly a slight advantage for ZSS.

Stages:

Quote:

Snakeee said:
I actually think it kind of is now. I mean it's not the worst, but the layout is not so great. And of course that one part of the stage can screw you over every once in a blue moon.

I'd say FD would be best against her or Yoshi's though.

Quote:

LordoftheMorning said:
ZZS has a sub-par boxing game (by boxing I mean extremely close range combat). The only effective tool ZZS has for close range combat is her jab, which is fast but not as dangerous as our boxing game is. At a farther range, you'll have problems with her blaser, dash attack combos, side-b (which is very powerful) ~~and yes *gulp* her amazing Fsmash.~~ The midrange is where you're beat, which seems a bit odd for Lucario, but yeah. Get in close and beat her up. Fair combos are quite effective here.

You've got her beat in the super long range too. Aura sphere will outprioritize uncharged blaster shots, and even charged ones depending on your aura. You can actually do quite a lot of damage with this because her projectile is laggy. If you pop out a surprise Mostly Charged Aura Sphere, you'll probably hit.

Dsmash is puts a lot of pressure on shields and it's great for racking up damage and combos. Watch out for this move. It's got good range, and if she uses it more than once, she takes a step forward every time. DO NOT get Dsmashed while trying to ledgehop. If you do, she will Bair you against the stage and you're dead. Be careful on the ledge.

Always try to ledgehog ZZS. The ZZS boards claim she has a very good recovery. This may be true, but her recovery is still awkward. If you can throw her off at the right time and she ends up under the stage, she's a goner. She'll try to use Down-b first, which can spike you if you're not careful.

Oh, and ZZS will **** vertical approaches. This means NO AERIAL RAVE PARTIES WITH DAIR! Up B and Usmash will eat those. And Up B can also lead to painful combos.

Some ideal counterpicks are Frigate Orpheon and moar Frigate Orpheon. Lylat is also a pretty bad stage for her, but it's not Lucario's best either.

Don't go to pokemon stadium because ZZS is good here. Battlefield probably isn't advisable either. Start out on FD if you can.

I'd say this matchup is in Lucarios favor definitely.

Also, Japes is really good, for those who don't have it banned, it might just be your best CP

Disclaimer: This thread is made for the sole purpose of keeping matchup discussing clean and organized. If people wish to discuss a past matchup, they may do so in this thread without cluttering the current discussion.

phi1ny3 · Jun 11, 2009

one down, two to go.

SAX · Nov 26, 2010

Thanks for this =]

culexus・wau · Nov 27, 2010

Yo guys.

if ZSS is flipstooling you on the ledge.

plz get that free nair that you have on her.

Karcist · Nov 27, 2010

I don't see how this match up is even... It just seems like we beat her in the air, on the ground, and in terms of killing power. Especially kill power because ZSS doesn't really have the greatest killing potential which allows us to live to higher percents (and you know what that means). Her jab might be the fastest in the game but it still isn't good.. She can't even finish her third jab and it doesn't jab cancel into anything guaranteed from what I understand.

Steam · Nov 27, 2010

well, she outspaces us and her jab helps her a lot un close. I don't think I'd say we beat her in the air and on the ground. We beat her on the ground when we're inside her spacing range and out of her jab range. We out camp her also.

phi1ny3 · Nov 27, 2010

pardon the naivety

but what is "flipstooling"?

Steam · Nov 27, 2010

phi1ny3 said:
pardon the naivety

but what is "flipstooling"?

I was wondering the same thing lol.

culexus・wau · Nov 27, 2010

Karcist said:
I don't see how this match up is even... It just seems like we beat her in the air, on the ground, and in terms of killing power. Especially kill power because ZSS doesn't really have the greatest killing potential which allows us to live to higher percents (and you know what that means). Her jab might be the fastest in the game but it still isn't good.. She can't even finish her third jab and it doesn't jab cancel into anything guaranteed from what I understand.

the jab is only for interrupting.

ircc we're one of the characters that can't get out of it by just holding shield [we have to hold down+shield]

if I know you're going to hold shield imma just roll/jump away lol.

She beats us in the air pretty hard unless she's on top of us, them sword legs.

Our dair and her Uair can compete with eachother, but more often then not ours will hit due to her rising too quickly when she jump uairs. don't be surprised if it gets beaten out sometimes though. it can do that from the sides or if you whiff a dair and try to dair again.

She does have a slight killing problem but we can have problems landing the kill sometimes.

Phil the flipstool is the term for the special footstool that ZSS can do out of the flip/downB.

usually puts her into the spinning animation, she can even footstool invincible people on the ledge and items.

quick nairs can hit her out of that once she flipstools you though

Karcist · Nov 27, 2010

Steam said:
well, she outspaces us and her jab helps her a lot un close. I don't think I'd say we beat her in the air and on the ground. We beat her on the ground when we're inside her spacing range and out of her jab range. We out camp her also.

What does she really have to space with though outside of her whip? Her whip is pretty easy to avoid honestly so I'm not seeing that as a huge threat and I'm fairly sure that our F tilt out spaces her d tilt. Her jab is really low reward as well, all she can really do is jab twice then back roll.

phi1ny3 · Nov 27, 2010

It's... harder than it seems

her aerial game is top notch, it's quite hard to beat many times if they're not bad (be especially careful of bair when she's edgeguarding you, that thing packs a punch)

her biggest issue is shields, something we don't have a lot of options with unfortunately (but still oh so useful in the MU).

We do outcamp her, but eh, the MU in general seems pretty even.

her jab is pretty defective, but we happen to be one of the few characters that doesn't have easy auto DI -> shield to block the third jab, you have to like manually do it lol.

fkacyan · Nov 27, 2010

Steam said:
well, she outspaces us and her jab helps her a lot un close. I don't think I'd say we beat her in the air and on the ground. We beat her on the ground when we're inside her spacing range and out of her jab range. We out camp her also.

If we jab you we're stuck in a frametrap. Hold shield and press grab after the second or third jab, you can grab her for it every time.

All of her spacing moves are moves you can forwardroll around to punish easily.

Also wow why is Shippo quoted in your OP, please don't listen to him. -_-

culexus・wau · Nov 27, 2010

Our fair will lose to her bair in direct confrontations.

she wins in the damage trade if we trade hits too.

ZSS shouldn't be zoning with SideB in this MU, it loses to well placed auraspheres [the tip CAN beat AS but its usually too slow for it come out]. The only time I'd use it is to get some safe shield damage/when they're on the ledge/ the finisher out of dsmash.

get out of here when thinking our ftilt outspaces dtilt lol

her dtilt is faster and has just about the same range, + it makes her position lower.

Even if jab is low reward its not like we're punish with it or anything. like I said its MAINLY used an an escape/gtfo option.

EDIT: we actually give out free grabs whenever we jab someone? imma test this.

I don't think forward rolll punishes zone'd bairs easy though

phi1ny3 · Nov 27, 2010

I've had this annoying phenomenon occur, when I do shield sideB, I can sometimes get a DA for a punish, but other times anything else she has enough frame advantage to jab me away (usually when I try to walk -> jab). What's going on here?

culexus・wau · Nov 27, 2010

if ZSS is holding jab after block'd sweet spotted sideB

since the 1st hit of jab is high I'd gather that since lucario's stance is lower when he dash attacks you evade the held jab and thus, hit ZSS.

that or since you can't buffer, walk -> jab/grab frame perfect human error is allowing ZSS's held buffer jab to be faster and DA just outspeeds held jab.

this is all theorycraft though, dunno if either is true.

I wish we had a lucario that would frame-advance check everything

my wii is too ****ty for me to be that lucario lol

Steam · Nov 27, 2010

pretty much what flame said about jab.

ZSS isn't like DK when we get in. she'll still out speed us up close.

and yeah pretty sure Nair, Fair, Bair > our airgame horizontally

phi1ny3 · Nov 27, 2010

fair is eh (does a lot of damage though)
nair is meh

bair and uair are where it's at for ZSS

Steam · Nov 27, 2010

she's ~~probably~~ going to need bair/Uair for kills though :/

IDK about the range of Fair and nair.

Luc's and ZSS's airspeed is about the same too

fkacyan · Nov 27, 2010

I wasn't talking about Lucario's jab, I was talking about ZSS's jab.

The third hit can't hit and she has enough cooldown after the second for you to grab her if she doesn't do it.

phi1ny3 · Nov 27, 2010

Yup, wasn't talking about Luc's jab

ZSS' 3rd jab doesn't hit all but a few
Lucario is one of those few
Still SDIable, but harder than the normal "hold shield and ggs" business.

I love playing this MU as snake though.

fkacyan · Nov 27, 2010

phi1ny3 said:
Yup, wasn't talking about Luc's jab

ZSS' 3rd jab doesn't hit all but a few
Lucario is one of those few
Still SDIable, but harder than the normal "hold shield and ggs" business.

I love playing this MU as snake though.

It's all about how close you're standing to her when the first hit connects.

Browny · Nov 28, 2010

flame that post makes no sense...

like, I have no idea what youre talking about.

culexus・wau · Nov 28, 2010

which post

D Who? · Dec 2, 2010

FlameWaveK said:
if ZSS is holding jab after block'd sweet spotted sideB

since the 1st hit of jab is high I'd gather that since lucario's stance is lower when he dash attacks you evade the held jab and thus, hit ZSS.

that or since you can't buffer, walk -> jab/grab frame perfect human error is allowing ZSS's held buffer jab to be faster and DA just outspeeds held jab.

this is all theorycraft though, dunno if either is true.

I wish we had a lucario that would frame-advance check everything my wii is too ****ty for me to be that lucario lol

I believe its ducking animation. But DA dose out range.

Also! Keep in mind ZZS had a big deadzone on her grab and sideB. So if she fu*ks up and sideBs close-mid range, dodge it and ftilt and you could even try fsmash.

I'm not sure how but the dead zone is though, I just know its there

culexus・wau · Dec 2, 2010

Yeah there's a spot you can exploit which is just out of her sideb close hitbox and in her grab deadzone,

Abuse area of space if you can, I actually try to play avoiding this deadzone as much as possible

D Who? · Dec 2, 2010

I take advantage when I can. I don't look for it per say, but I do exploit it when possable. BAS I find to be very useful. To make her approach you, you're incontrol. I usually play this match to time out. Very defensive alot of running away.

xxpatgxx · Dec 15, 2010

ZSS kills Lucario very early in my opinion. Tipper Side B when fresh can kill as early as 110% on mid level ceilings.

culexus・wau · Dec 15, 2010

yeah

imo using sideB isn't very good in the MU for zoning anyway so I use for my finisher off dsmash or something.

outside of dsmash its kinda hard to land on someone with zss experience though.

C.S. Dinah · Dec 16, 2010

Theres a blindspot in her Side-B, so depending on Lucario's Hurtbox you could possibly space in between it?

:/

culexus・wau · Dec 16, 2010

yep

I've fsmashed someone in the blindspot

phi1ny3 · Dec 16, 2010

I'm more scared of bair, tbh, especially if I'm on a platform above her.

Lucario vs. ZSS (13) Export

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