Out of order, new matchup thread coming soon!

Sesshomuronay · Jun 15, 2009

This thread is a good place for matchup tips: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236103

Metaknight
Rating: 65-35 Metaknight's Advantage

Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7628494#post7628494

Random info:

Ishieymoro]Tornado isn't so bad. Shield angled up said:
I would have B-air, blaster, and shine as my main priorities in this match up.

Never get too close to Mk. Hand-to-hand or in-your-face combat is not good at all. Space, and annoy.

Never get below him. Damage him horizontally, and kill him horizontally. Any opportunity Mk gets to lash out a d-air he will.

If he tornadoes, you run and b-reverse blaster.

Watch out for his f-tilt and d-tilt. They have surprising range and can be used defensively quite a lot. D-tilt trips at low and moderate percentages.

His f-air can be b-aired.

Be patient. Don't try to gimp Mk. Have some common sense.

With this if find the match up to be 6-4 Mk.

This is through my testing and is my opinion only. Hope it sums it up and helps.

Reccomended Counterpicks:
Final Destination
Smashville

Reccomended Stage Bans:
Rainbow Cruise
Lylat Cruise

Snake
Rating: 55-45 Snake's Advantage

Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7671777#post7671777

Random Info:

Gheb_01 said:
Get him in the air, wait for an airdodge/grenade reversal/aerial and punish with fair/uair - fair is better because its huge hitbox is more reliable though uair hits from different angles (especially if Snake is slightly behind you). Don't grab too much, at least not from a neutral position...Snake ftilt >>> any grab. Only grab after he whiffs an aerial or when he lands in general (you can also try to grab him out of the mortar slide though it's difficult and risky). Ftilt2 can be easily punished with fsmash and AAA is very good against grab happy Snakes. Wolf has a solid roll after Snake dthrows you but avoiding grabs is always better. Focus on being in the air and use jab1 a lot when you're on the ground. Abuse your massive mobility advantage to avoid explosives. Blaster beats mortar slide. Don't waste your dsmash too early and stay out of utilt range...that's about it.

Asaph said:
Snake's aerials suck in the case he's being juggled. This is Wolf's strength. Just uair him when he's in the air.
Wall of bair seems to give Snake players a nightmare.
Shield all the time. His ftilt becomes inferior.
Grab him for ****.
When he's using the glider, **** him.
When he's recovering, use spike to ruin his life.
Reflector ***** Snake's grenades.
If you're stuck with C4, use common sense and do something about it.
Approach from above? Do it and I revoke your Wolf license.
Blaster at your own caution. An incoming grenade could esplode and ruin you. On the other hand, you could hit Snake's grenade just after he throws it, ruining his day. You choose.
Blaster ruins his mines.

KRDsonic said:
Wolf can handle a camping snake way easier than most characters. Blaser grenades when he throws them, or if he's dumb and throws grenades early and unsafely, just reflect them, or pick them up and throw them back at him.

Snake is easy to juggle because of his semi-bad areals, though his Nair can be annoying at times. Wolf's Fair and Snake's Nair trade hits. I'm not sure if you can hit him out of his Nair when he's facing you, with your Fair and not get hit, but the fact that it trades hits can be handy.

Uthrow > Bait an air dodge > Regrab tends to be a handy mindgame on Snake. Most either try to air dodge their way down or use a Nair/Dair to try to give them a safe landing, so I just abuse the landing lag of those and regrab (or use a Dsmash if it's time to kill, but if it's by that time, it's better to just Dthrow than Uthrow).

Ishieymoro said:
Harass him to no end the instant he gets off stage, it's your best bet. The uthrow thing works well, you can also bthrow sometimes for similar results. Punish a shielded ftiltx2 with fsmash. You can shine out of his nair and also reflect the mortar. Blow **** up with your blaster.

Snake punishes harder than wolf. If you can, SDI snake's ftilt so the second hit won't connect, the damage you can save in the long run is impressive.

Reccomended Counterpicks:
Smashville
Jungle Japes
Final Destination
Brinstar
Norfair

Reccomended Stage Bans:
Battleship Halberd
Lylat Cruise

Wario
Rating: 60-40 Wario's Advantage

Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7763129#post7763129

Random Info:

Gheb 01 said:
Wario is a stupid character. He lives forever, kills fast and is way too mobile for such a sexy beast. Warios favourite tacitc is aircamping but it won't work vs Wolf since we're just as fast in the air .... our bair anfd fair also beat almost all of Wario's aerials ...

keep that in mind: try to beat his aerials, not shield them. I learned that the had way...

retreating fair is the best move against Wario since it beats all his aerials as well as his bites...the only thing that can beat our fair is his uair but you can shine/blaster reversal if you see it coming. We have no particular move he can SDI out so you can always avoid the fart. Don't be too grab happy either since Wario can bait and avoid grabs extremely well.

Overall I think it's slightly in Warios favour ... his weight/ko power beats ours. Otherwise it's pretty even ... 45/55 Wario's favour on starter stages.

Arcpoint said:
His Nair is really good. You beat Wario horizontally, so abuse that as much as physically possible. Keep him in his shield. And refrain from using yours as little as possible (bite, it's such a good move, it eats Falcon punches for breakfast)

Sesshomuronay said:
Wolf has an infinite on wario that is a little hard to pull off. If wario has used his double jump and you grab him over and he is hanging over a ledge you can 0-death him if you're patient enough. To do this you must grab him with the above conditions met(pummel him a few times), and then release him. He should do an aerial release and you can just regrab him before he can do anything to escape.

Heres a video of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgoLuPfxK8g

tedeth said:
If you can create some distance wario is not an issue for wolf. But if that Wario gets up in your grill. Ho ho. Not good. Wolf beats wario laterally in the air, ie. his fair/bair > wario's fair/bair, but wario wins vertically.

On a large stage I can see this matchup being close to even, HOWEVER, if your wolf gets grabbed and chaingrabbed, get *****. Wario can get grabs quite easily with decent grab range and good setups for the grabs. Also, Wario gimps Wolf, Wolf can't gimp wario.

The best way to be successful in this matchup is keep your distance, don't let him pressure you and for the love of god don't get grabbed at cg %(around 20-40% I think)s. (The cg is hard though it has to be buffered pretty much perfectly)

Sebastian S said:
I made the experience that being aggressive is a good choice against Wario. If he wants to do air crap, just pressure him with Bair, it beats out his aerials and doesn't last as long as his air dodge, so he can hardly punish you. Mix this Bair game up with Blaster and shine, that works if he wants to bite your Bair or gets a good position to Dair you.

SH and FH blasters limit his options, but be sure that you space them correctly, otherwise he can AD trough them and punish you.

Warios like to fake approachs with SH AD, just punish their landing lag with Fsmash, if Wario approachs from above with a Dair and spaces away from you afterwards, just punish them with Fsmash again or jump shine the Dair and follow up with Bair/Fair, Wolf is one of the few chars who really has weapons against his great spacing game, make use of it.

If he tries to approach with SH aerials, use retreating Fair, it's > all of his aerials.

And a random Info: Wario is the only Char who gets hit by Wolfs Dair after a foot stool, and you can set up a foot stoll with a SH shine with DI towards him.
(SH shine towards Wario > foot stool > Dair is a true combo)

Reccomended Counterpicks:
Yoshi's Island
Smashvile
Halberd
Delfino
Castle Siege

Reccomended Stage Bans:
Rainbow Cruise

Falco
Rating: 60-40 Falco's Favor

Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8035390#post8035390

Random Info:

Asaph said:
Don't get grabbed.

Falco has a lot of damage on you from the CG. From what I remember from my matches, it was around forty to fifty damage. What I would do if I were you is stay sharp, don't get outcamped.

But one thing you might want to do is try and take as much damage as you can from the little stuff so the CG can no longer be used. Getting damage from normal attacks is worse than getting damage from a CG that can set you in a bad position.

Remember, Falco has an annoying reflector, it pops out like a jack-in-the-box, and it trips you.

Keep your distance.

Spacing is even more important in this MU, because even without that CG, he can still combo you.

What I've found is that you can dish out a couple of your lasers if you're smart, and this is where Falco's weaknesses come into play.

His greatest weakness is recovery, if I may be so bold. He does have the phantasm, but if you use blaster, he falls. This is where reflector comes into play. Fall, shine, jump, shine, UpB. That is my preferred way of gimping Falco, shining him two times after he falls from failing with the phantasm. Only leave level to gimp Falco. Don't try anything fancy like an awesome dair. I'll laugh at your fail.

Ishieymoro said:
Camp a platform or something until at least 20%, then be sure to stay at center stage until like 40-45%. Falco's lasers are a pain, but just sit there and reflect them if you want, at a distance. I'm not sure how well rolling out of reflector (after you're hit) will work if they try to IAP right after, but it might be worth a shot.

Lots of shff bairs are good, if you space them well he can't shieldgrab you (might be able to punish otherwise though, idr). The annoying thing is that his lasers will turn you around, so if you get hit you might end up using fair and landing with lag and getting punished. Once you get past the lasers it's not so bad imo, bair outranges falco in the front (his bair can somewhat compete with it) and once he's offstage you can make recovering a hassle with bair, laser, and shine. Falco isn't the best when it comes to killing, so honestly as long as you avoid the cg spike (not that hard once you get used to it, and you can tech it as well) it's about even.

Darklouis331 said:
Based on the Falco's I've played, when they're hanging on the edge or just trying to recover onto the stage, they like to use the phantasm in hopes of getting a hit on us while recovering at the same time.

I like to move towards the middle of the stage (because it travels far horizontally), pull out the shield at the last minute, and then punish with a Dsmash, Fsmash, Bair or whatever.

Also, his Dsmash isn't that good. Punish it when you get the chance.

Skater Trainer said:
From 0% to about 50%, camp and space your *** off. Try and stay a good distance way where you ca get b-air without getting shield-grabbed. Taking lasers during the first 50% isn't that bad, but don't let too much laser damage add up. Jumpshine to GTFO when close to falco. Falco's recovery is worst than Wolfs vertically, so shine and n-air are good for keeping him away from the stage, but don't let him get above you or you will be spiked. Be sure to control center stage as much as possible so you don't end up in a bad position off stage

choice brawler said:
Blastering his phantasm doesnt really help that much. free dmg, for sure, but even average falco players know to buffer a 2nd side b (or at least all the falco's i've played know to do it) so they dont get in position for being shine spiked.

Bair beats phantasm as do shine and blaster. If you're able to shine his phantasm so that he remains off stage, thats better than blastering imo cuz either he tries to side b again and gets dsmashed (you should dsmash if he tries to side b) or he up b's and gets shine spiked (you should shine spike if he tries to up b).

Sesshomuronay said:
It is possible to tech falco's spike. I think you need to DI and smash DI into the stage and then press R or L to tech it. However you must be cautious as a smart falco player may try to use mindgames and he may not decide to spike you and instead if you use your f-air or another move you will drop too low and falco could just grab the ledge and edgeguard you.

Here is a video of teching the spike:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFgf2EKYB4g

Reccomended Counterpicks:
Battlefield
Delfino
Halberd
Brinstar

Reccomended Stage Bans:
Final Destination
Castle Siege
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise

Diddy Kong
Rating: 50:50

Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8188285#post8188285

Random Info:

Ishieymoro said:
Well, I think it's definitely in Wolf's favor. You can utilize diddy's bananas as well as he can, if not better (DACIT, faster ranged options to punish trips, reflector, fair picks up bananas well, etc). Shine can get you out of his usmash and after the first hit of his jab. I've seen it work out of dash attack as well, but that might need DI (same goes for fsmash, seeing how jigglypuff can rest through it). Offstage, if you force diddy to use upB, shine gimp is practically a stock. Wolf is heavy which can make him easy to combo at the start of the stock, but the reflector can get you out of a few. Also, diddy has difficulty KOing, so wolf should live long if you avoid gimps.

xzax1337 said:
Wolf can use the bananas well, just as good as Diddy, and Wolf has better options to kill with after tripping the Diddy with the bananas, you could grab a banana and camp Diddy due to if he wants to stop you from camping he has to approach or use his 2nd banana wisely, and mindgame you or you will be in complete control. Wolf can do combos and mindgames and deal out serious damage with the bananas but the only thing making me think this isn't 6:4 is the Diddy knows more about bananas and aren't going to offer them to you. You have to make the effort the obtain them and use them well. Also Diddy can gimp you. But if you use shine correctly, you can gimp him too. Offstage its hard, but on stage you HAVE to outplay the diddy to get everything in motion or you will loose.

Sesshomuronay said:
Short Hop F-Air is pretty amazing since it can grab bananas that diddy throws at you.

castorpollux said:
Wolf can do crazy stuff with bananas (I still don't get why so few wolfs use these) such as JC item toss -> boost smash/fsmash, DACIT -> anything, and other things. These rack up the 450% damage that u need to win pretty quickly.

If wolf gets a stock lead, he can jumpshine camp diddy kong. This is really good at avoiding kill moves while slowly damaging diddy kong at the same time. Right now, I don't think there are many things diddy can do about it, but I may be wrong about this

rvkevin said:
In general, Diddy benefits in the exchanging blaster and banana damage since you'll be tripped and Diddy will have improvement in tempo. Diddy is screwed in this matchup without bananas since most of Wolf's moves have more priority over Diddy's moves...Fair picks them up rather easily...Shield them and then do a retreating Fair and Diddy won't be able to get it before you...Once you get a banana, don't immediately throw it back, he will just shield it and Z-catch it off his shield if your too far away...You should either DACIT into a Dsmash or Grab if he shields the banana. Another approach is to jump over him and throw the banana down onto Diddy's shield Bair his shield and then Fsmash...Even if Diddy shields all of the attacks, the banana will be next to him on the ground and the Fsmash/Bair will push him onto banana allowing you free damage, although if the Diddy predicts this they can try to catch the initial banana with an Uair, punishing Wolf, or run/roll away at some point..

If Diddy techs the Dthrow either in place or behind you, if you buffer a Dsmash, its a guaranteed hit. If Diddy approaches with a banana, you can run up to him and shield grab, if he throws the banana, you can just grab him...Instant tossing is harder to do with Wolf than Diddy but still managable. Wolf gets most of his kills vertically so stages like FD, Halberd, or Brinstar would be good counterpicks...Possible bans could be Smashville, Battlefield, or Castle Seige.

Let me mention a few things about shine…If you shine and Diddy is in a neutral position, you can get punished even if Diddy throws the banana at you…If he is far enough away, he can throw the banana at you use a dash attack to catch the banana and combo with dash attack, glide toss up, and finish with Utilt/Uair. If Diddy is close to you he can glide toss down and Fsmash/Dsmash you before you are able to get out of the Shine's lag.

That being said, Shine is an excellent move for breaking up combos…Without it Diddy can combo Wolf like no other at low percents…Even using it to get out of Usmash's 3rd hit is useful, since the 3rd hit never combos. Jump shine is effective at interrupting aerial moves, Diddy cannot SH Fair you since you will be invincible at that height and if you double jump out of it, you will be in position to space Bair since you have better horizontal aerial movement…I know you know about shine gimps, but make sure you time it right, if you miss, chances are you're going to be edge hogged.

Reccomended Counterpicks:
Halberd
Brinstar
Yoshis Island

Reccomended Stage Bans:
Delfino Plaza
Castle Seige
Lylat Cruise
Rainbow Cruise

King Dedede
Rating: 65:35 Dedede's favor

Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8381495#post8381495

Random Info:

xzax1337 said:
Ok well we all know what DeDeDe can do when he grabs Wolf, but the hard thing is getting the grab off. JC Fair and spaced bairs work well in not getting grabbed. If somehow hes approaching you to grab shine or jab him away. Camp heavily with your lazers and abuse him when he tries to approach. Pick stages with platforms so you can stay on there to make sure he cannot grab you.

rvkevin said:
Btw, your not going to want to shine on the ground because of the lag and is easily grabbed...All shines should be jump shines. Utilt can be hard to land on Wolf, but watch out for it at low percents as well, since Utilt to Grab might as well combo at low percents and it'll be fresh by the time you're at Utilt percent. Running the clock may just be the inevitable way to play the match up. Both players are going to play very safe anyway that most matches will be over six minutes...

Blaster planking is super effective, none of DDD's attacks are reliable against it...I think Gordos might go through the laser so that's the only way for him to get past it.

Asaph said:
Spam the blaster. I keep hearing that DDD has a better camping game. I don't know why. While his projectiles walk around and can eat your blaster, your blaster is faster. Try and jump to shoot over his projectiles, time them so you shoot after he throws. Your projectile goes farther.

Also, kill his projectiles. When you have the chance, **** them off the stage, especially if it's that lightning-puking *******.

DDD's aerial game is gay. His fair comes out pretty quick, as well as his dair. What you need to know and do is punish him for it. What did I say? I said punish him for it. Fair covers the top of the DDD and the front of him. If he uses it, uair him. If he does dair, bair/fair his side. If he does bair, run the **** away.

Knowing how to play DDD from my experiences is knowing when to attack. Be fast. Be unpredictable.

Don't do SHFF bairs. Use the aerial movement of a SH bair to DI away. I also find that doing the wall of pain, bair x3 works more effective than the DJ FF Bair x2.

Go offstage against a good DDD and I will laugh. This is not recommended at all, even if you're me.

When you're camping DDD with blaster, be very careful. I've bastered like a maniac and taken a full-fledged Gordo to the face. So be patient and utterly perfect with this.

Do not screw with DDD. He will grab you. His dodge is Godly. Do not underestimate it.

AC retreating fair has worked wonders for me.

Know the offstage game well as far as what DDD will do. Do not fall into his bair and get chained. If DDD is going to come directly at you and bair, fall lower and then use your DJ and recovery. Flash has no priority vs that bair.

For some reason a FF uair works well for me, but common sense says it shouldn't. I dunno, test it out in friendlies and see what it does for you.

You know the shining policy. Camp with the jumpshine as much as possible, but don't fall back down and bair DDD's shield when he's practically in "sniffing-your-face" distance, that's ridiculously stupid.

I don't know what else I can say. Do not get grabbed under any circumstances; know how to get back on stage if you do get grabbed.

coney said:
the key to the matchup, like most with DDD, is spacing. DDD's like to shieldgrab and will often do it regardless of how close or how far you are. this will ONLY WORK A FEW TIMES, so be unpredictable when trying to punish the lag from the grab. a well-spaced bair can bait the grab, then an fsmash can punish it while he's still fumbling around.

don't rely on this, though. if the DDD is any good, he'll stop shieldgrabbing the bair, which'll make you look like a moron if he just shields the fsmash too.

other than that, not much to say. i don't think a lot in this matchup--i just do. from what i've heard and seen, a lot of DDD's won't adapt and will try to just grab grab grab. if they begin to adapt, so should you. aggressive DDD's can be scary too...

Anonano said:
The major thing with D3 is he is such a big, lovely target. He practically begs for FH/SH bairs to the face (just make sure you can maneuver away if it fails). Even if he does start spamming, FH, SH, and regular lazers make his life heck. His camping game is somewhat like Oli's, so don't be too intimidated. D3 doesn't have the camping game to take down a half-decent Wolf.

If you decide to play aggressively with bairs and fairs, just remember to mix it up with Shines. If you decide to Shine, make sure that you will fall slightly behind where D3 is facing to bait the grab. Even if he manages to shield, he'll go for the shieldgrab and whiff, leaving him open for a variety of land-based attacks normally not open to you.
Make sure you are very jumpy while playing. Playing land-based against D3 up-close will get you grabbed. Bait grabs from him and punish.

If he does grab you, use mikeHAZE's AT. I was surprised at how well it worked in my matches.

Ishieymoro said:
Okay, biggest issue: getting grabbed. Don't let it happen. Always retreat your aerials unless you are POSITIVE they are spaced perfectly and/or will not hit their shield. Better safe than sorry, y'know.

That being said, bair is great. I prefer to empty SH a lot, so if the spacing is right I can shff bair, if it isn't I can DJ bair and retreat, and if I'm pissing my pants I can jumpshine. With empty SHs at the right distance, I find that I'm open to the most options, depending on what my opponent's reaction is. Speaking of getting grabbed, idk who uses ftilt that much, but if they shield the first hit you're getting ***** hard by a shieldgrab, so keep that in mind.

D3 can ledge infinite you and smallstep cg you and regular cg you, do what you can to avoid the ledge infinite at all costs. At the end of the cg, you can get hit by a ftilt or dtilt. Dtilt is the more common one for gimping, so be prepared to DI that up a lot. However, some D3's might anticipate a jump and try to outpredict you with fsmash, keep an eye out for that.

IMPORTANT TIP on the cg, kinda. It fails on slants (downwards only iirc), you can shine or spotdodge out. Hopefully the D3 knows their character well and just ftilts you out of it, or something similar (I say hopefully because it's just disappointing if we know something they don't about their character). Use this to your advantage though, or at least whenever you're on a slanted stage. Slanted stages also let us slide more when landing, which could be used for safer aerials, but yeah.

Now that we're past the grab, the other move that's a real *****: bair. It will butt**** your recovery. Do what Asaph said I guess, I'm not too good at handling bair. Shine/jumpshine if you think you're close enough, FFAD, whatever you think will get you to the ledge, but above all, DI UP. Good DI is very important in not getting gimped. Oh, and also, save your second jump if possible, but that's common knowledge by now. On stage, I've heard it can lead into a grab, so definitely don't let that happen (jumpshine <3).

Other crap that this penguin has over us is his weight. While it does make him easier to combo, the fact that he's tough to kill overrides combos. I honestly can't land a dsmash on D3, I'm that scared to get close to him, so there's a lot of damage racking to do. Combos at lower %s, know your SHFF uair combos and at what general %s your bair combos start working (having bair > fsmash shielded = cg city). At higher %s, go as safe as possible, main objective isn't just to not get grabbed, but just not get hit.

Some complain about Dee's and Doo's blocking lasers, that's kinda true, but you can SH blaster over them, and the bayonet can smack them around. I prefer to use dtilt to get rid of them though (might not knock them off on FD sadly... but it's quick and safe-ish and whatever). You can reflect gordos, and definitely take care of the Doo's as soon as possible, lest you want to get shocked and then cg'd.

Airdodging behind D3's shield during the wolf wall or whatever is pretty good, as is being behind him in general because it eliminated the dreadful shieldgrab. However, bair OoS is still there to bother us. A good D3 should, IMO, be able to cover up crossups fairly well, but reaction time and unpredictability makes this a moot point I guess, idk. Try it out, every vid I've seen makes good use of it, but it's not something I use much, if ta all.

D3's like to spotdodge, so be sure you hold A when you jab to catch them as they're coming out. Jab mixups are clearly very risky, but it's your call. They also like to fair when recovering, so if you see that coming, go for the spike.

Now, onto why I don't think it's that bad.There are a lot of things that Wolf actually has going for him here. Bair, as everyone mentioned, can do a great job of keeping D3 at bay so long as you know what you're doing and do it well. Find a method that works for you, preferrably one that emphasizes retreating and not landing in front of D3 often. Keep your options open for mixups, and take whichever ones seem benefitial at the moment.

Jumpshine can get you out in a pinch, but don't get too predictable, it's not fail-safe. D3's ftilt reaches past your preferred zone, there's not much you can do if he just stands there. Definitely don't jumpshine though, because he'll fair you out of it, find some other way to move past him in the air, and remember to be safe.

Fair and uair are also good here. Retreating fairs are quite safe, and if you ever have an opening for shff uair, combo time! I like to jumpshine and then FF uair behind if D3 is in lag for combos, but idk how often that would actually be a good strategy. Retreating fairs though, really good stuff, as I'm sure everyone already knows. When D3 is in the air, I prefer to punish his landing, but either way he's a relatively easy target.

D3 has the worst aerial mobility in the game, Wolf has among the top. This means that you should clearly be taking to the air for zoning/spacing/whatever, and also that he'll have a really hard time DIing out of usmash (usmash OoS is fun for punishing). Juggling and punishing landing lag is made somewhat easier because of this as well.

Another fun thing, gimping. Yeah I know I'm ********. Shine gimp > blaster gimp works well. If you go far offstage, you're not making it back, but carefully done it can screw D3 over, practically a free stock. Idk, it's stupid, but looks cool and makes you feel super awesome. Watch out for swallowcides though, not fun. D3 falls like a cinderblock, pressure him offstage. And if he makes it back somehow, punish his landing. Offstage elements are definitely worth taking advantage of once you're ready.

Reccomended Counterpicks:
Battlefield
Brinstar
Norfair
Jungle Japes

Reccomended Stage Bans:
Final Destination
Castle Siege
Rainbow Cruise
Halberd
PS 1

Marth
Rating: 50:50

Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8467103#post8467103

_Kain_ said:
Wolf's Bair > Marth's Fair which is key since u can outspace him. Blaster is good here n there to discombobulate them and frustrate them. I'm not sure but is Fair > than Marth's fair? someone test that out. Punish any of his missed smashes with a fsmash. Light so he's pretty easy to kill. All i have to say is Wolf's aerial game beats his

Marth can CG wolf at low percents i think between 0-12 or sumthin? Anyways space and avoid it its nothin dat bad either. His Dancing Blade is prolly his best move in this fight its bothersome. He can also Up B out of many things. He can gimp your recovery or so ive heard? Never had it happen to me unless i was being stupid. Its a match up of spacing both can space really well but if Wolf's is done correctly he can outspace Marth. He shudnt be killing u very soon unless he catches u with a tipper.

Sesshomuronay said:
Try to avoid getting grabbed at low percents as he can like chaingrab or sometimes get a tipper f-smash on you which can hurt.

Spacing is key in this matchup. Marths attacks are fairly disjointed so watchout for that, but try to make good use of wolfs good aerial mobility to beat his attacks. Jumpshine is decent I find if he is like trying to F-air you. You can force him to approach with your blaster so try to remember that, approaching marth can be annoying sometimes.

Also try to di out of any attack chains he might try. Stuff like his forward B, F-air walls where he tries to hit you multiple times and follow it up with stuff like U-tilt. If you can di his forward B well enough you can like shine out of it I think.

Asaph said:
If so, I think our aerial game as far as spacing won't be so easy. It's like Peach's fair versus Wolf's bair. She has more range, but it's slower. Now, our bair isn't slow, but if Marth's fair is faster by a pretty good margin, the game is no longer spacing, it's using your move before your opponent does. With that in mind, even if the moves are nearly equal in speed, Wolf doesn't have such a great margin of range on it. This means that it's a game of predicting the user of the first move and punishing with yours.

I've found that rushing into a Marth is pretty stupid, because your moves are similar, his being, probably faster. He can use two fairs in one short hop (but his falling speed is different, which is why I asked).

Be sure to predict the Marth, and know that he can sneak a fair into a bair assault and ruin a potential chain (confirm?).

Other than that, we also have a projectile. Keep that in mind. Also, someone should figure out if his fair eats our laser. I would assume it doesn't, but who the hell knows.

Note the CG everyone mentioned. Avoid it and use damage from Marth in the beginning so he doesn't get that free damage. In fact, if someone would be as so kind, figure out the specifics of the CG. Or if you already know, please do tell.

Offstage game. There is no offstage game. Stay on the stage. Marth's fair is beast for saying "i'm fast, gtfo" and slapping you if you try to gimp him. If I were you, I'd try and laser him (because I'm an idiot), offstage, and then grab and edge hog him. I think if you don't have enough time to get off and on to time the edgehog well, you can lightstep and immediately flash again to grab the ledge. Not confirmed, so I'll see if it's possible later today. Generally, you tend not to try and gimp Marth, because that UpB is pretty ghey, but if you time it, the prince will fall to Hell.

Shine is win in this MU. It tells Marth and his fair to gtfo.

NeedMoarGoyf said:
Fair hits on frames 4 to 8 for Marth. I don't know about Wolf's Fair...but it seems Marth's is faster, if only by a little.
Some Marths will probably play for the grab if you're at 0%. I know I did/still do. >_> Just laser them until they get frustrated and start Fairing, or something.
His pivot grab range is much larger than his regular grab range I believe, so watch out for that.
Dancing Blade down #3 can make Marth pull back if he's attacking a shield (and using down variation for some reason...), letting him avoid a potential shieldgrab.
For DIing out of Dancing Blade: If you're close, DI towards him. If you're kinda far/at the tip DI away (for all variations. The standard variation is kinda hard to DI out of though...
Expect a few Dolphin Slashes.

Asaph said:
The only thing I have to say is that UpB, while we know can come out of anything, it can DEFINITELY come out of anything. Most stocks were lost because of a well placed UpB.

If you're going to hit him with the AAA, do it quickly and leave no space between, cause Marth can get out of it.

Like I said, fair is faster than your bair and probably all you're going to see. It can interrupted whatever you have going.

Don't mess with Marth offstage and be careful with recovery. The match I lost was from a spike when I tried to flash and grab the ledge. Came out of nowhere, nearly pissed myself.

Spam blaster intelligently.

DACUS is a no no. He just slaps you with his fair.

Ishieymoro said:
Marth really sucks when you're below him in the air. His dair has decent range and comes out fast enough, but the lag afterwards is practically screaming "**** me" if he misses. The only other options he has are counter and airdodge, one of which leaves him open for **** if you don't attack and the other can be punished if baited well. Take advantage of this. Also, save your second jump when recovering as usual, getting gimped is never fun. If possible, avoid the grab at low %s until you get hit by a fair, because then he can't cg you anymore I believe, which is an easy way for him to get you offstage and go for the gimp. UpB is annoying as ****, beware of upBOoS-happy Marths.

Shaya said:
Marth applies shield pressure and punishes the 'lack of immediate options' out of shield just about every character has against Marth's fast fall well spaced range. Wolf beats this better than MK. Wolf's fsmash punishes everything Marth would conventially use for spacing, to the point that Marth spacing well cannot profit from hitting your shield MOST OF THE TIME. If Marth does anything BUT shield himself, he is susceptible to fsmash. Now of course Marth can bait this fsmash, but Wolf has the advantage in this situation. If Marth jumps, its an fsmash, if Marth attacks (bar DS....) its an fsmash... One of Marth's best techniques has a huge super long range, high speed DENT to it.

Marth's fair will outdisjoint your shine, so will his nair. He can nair you and you will either get hit by the first hit of nair, or won't hit marth, so you'll get hit by the second.
I firmly believe whilst aerial game between the two characters is pretty close, Marth wins. Fair and nair seem to out disjoint wolf's bair; and Wolf's bair does NOT have arc/angled properties like Fair and Nair do, meaning Marth can beat out any aerial spacing just by having a better vertical placement. I FULL HOP a lot against Wolf because of this. Marth is floatyish, but has a pretty respectable fast fall speed. Wolf's fair is nice, but isn't reliable. Unless Marth is 'forced' forward (i.e. from a ledge get up), its really only good on reaction (i.e. power shielded) rising aerial.

Finishing Wolf with gimps is one of Marth's strengths. Hitting you off stage at the right percents (so you're not too far away from the stage, but not immedietly close) allows Marths to just simply swat you with fair while you try to side b (so around side b's 3/4th length to full length is a pretty bad place for wolf to be hit to). I personally have never done this db1 thing, but seems feasible from my understandings of it. DB1 stunts vertical fall, and will also outdisjoint your shine if well spaced, and also ends faster than fair.... so hmm

Marth is kinda ****ed trying to get back on the stage over 100% with his slowish get up options.
However, Marth can plank, and Wolf has no immediate options for this.

Dolphin Slash in general is a no no. It's a baiting match up. Wolf's roll is stupidly good in messing with Marth's spacing and punishing him. Laser is an annoyance, but Marth's very good walk speed can PS through it whilst being able to shield the incoming punishment.

Reccomended Counterpicks:
Final Destination
Smashville
Rainbow Cruise
Halberd
Delphino Plaza

Reccomended Stage Bans:

Mr. Game And Watch

Rating: 50:50

Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8559977#post8559977

Random Info:

Asaph said:
•Counterpick to Yoshi's Island. His jump gets cancelled on the right side.
•He has invincibility frames on half the UpB, so don't try gimping him, you'll just be gimped yourself.
•He has more range than you, and when you camp with laser, he gets the oil spill. He can also continually cancel your blaster, so don't try and fill it up and then camp, because it won't work.
•His smashes are deadly, especially the fsmash. It lingers, so don't spotdodge.
•WOLF CAN TECH THE DTHROW! LEARN HOW TO! When you do, he can't follow up as well. He will usually let you roll, dash and then upsmash you. It's deadly.
•When you're being dthrowed, DI to his back and then tech it. Best way to do it (he can legitimately combo you with the dtilt afterwards.
•DTHROW > DSMASH is NOT a combo. Don't fall into it. Do what I said above. If you can't tech it for whatever reason, just fall and roll behind him.
•Do not approach him from below, his dair has ghey priority.
•Make sure you shield his bair all the way.
•Uair blows you upward. I don't really know what to say but to keep moving until you get down.
•His fair lags, punish him.
•Always DI the rapid A attack.

Gheb 01 said:
If he turtles: You can beat it/trade hits with bair/fair. Or you shield the regular hits, Powershield the landing hitbox and then proceed to **** him. If you can consistently deal with the turtle then you can camp in your shield as long as you want...just don't spotdodge against him because G&W ***** them. G&W can't ever kill you with his throws because his dthrow -> dsmash is techable and all other throws are weak. Plus his grab is crap.

Equi said:
Patience is a virtue in this matchup. You have to play slow and controlled, only reacting to G&W after he reacts to you first. If you aggro a good G&W you will get owned. Especially when they're on the platform above you and you go crazy with bairs and uairs they'll beat you from above. What you want to do is shark and walk slowly and cautiously and react only when the G&W messes up for the most part on the ground. You don't want to use uair, maybe fair occasionally but never go too crazy in the air beat him patiently and slowly on the ground.

Ishieymoro said:
Other people said most of it, but I believe you can punish GW's dair if your reaction time is good enough OoS. Also, I might've been hallucinating, but I've had uair/utilt go through his dair, and you can always jumpshine. So I guess the only thing I have to bring up is that I don't think trying to approach him from below is as bad of an idea as everyone else is making it seem.

Reccomended Counterpicks:
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1
Frigate Orpheon

Reccomended Stage Bans:
Norfair
Rainbow Cruise

Pikachu

Rating: 60:40 Pikachu's Favor

Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8642977#post8642977

Random Info:

ArcPoint said:
You should beat Pika in the air, Fair and Bair both beat anything Pika can throw at you in the air, watch for QAC though. Speaking of which, if he QAC's and then double jumps, when he lands if he's not doing an attack (So if he airdodges or does nothing) he gets the regular lag from the QAC.

Uhm...Reflector/PS/Bair > Thunder Jolt. Dsmash has a ton of priority. Fsmash gets stronger the closer it is to Pika's body. You outprioritize Pika in the air. It's relatively hard for Pika to kill, so just don't be predictable and you won't get hit by thunder bolt/Fsmash/Usmash/Nair.

Idk what else to say... that was one of the things I hated about Pika: Not enough priority. OH and I'm not sure about this but check to see if you can shine in between Pika's Fair to whatever gimmicks (That is when the fair hits you). Also be aware of punishing fair too early, it's a good multi-hitting move.

Arrows said:
Reflector works wonders on pikas.

Do not use Dair to momentum cancel against pikas, use uair. Dair will get you screwed. Right after you uair, use reflector to avoid thunder.

Bair is good, abuse it. We outrange and outprioritize them on the ground and I think we do in the air... if you can avoid the cg, you'll be fine.

Be aware of hyphen smash-> Thunder.
And at 50+% you can be less worried about being owned by a grab.

Sesshomuronay said:
Avoid getting grabbed. Smash DI his D-smash if you get hit with it.

Reccomended Counterpicks:
Smashville
Norfair
Battlefield
Brinstar

Reccomended Stage Bans:

Olimar
Rating: 55:45 Wolf's Favor

Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8729775#post8729775

Random Info:

Arrows said:
Wolfs blaster> Olis grab, side b, side smash.
If oli is offstage, either shinegimp him, or simply ledgehog him, either way, he's dead.
Our speed is better than his on the ground, just beware of purples and upsmashes.

We can camp harder than oli, remember that.

Turbo Ether said:
1.It should be noted that Wolf's Nair will always destroy Pikmin that latch onto him, regardless of which part of his body they land on. Always destroy white pikmin, they can take you from 0-41!

2.Well spaced FF Bair is safe from Oli's shieldgrab.

3.Lot's of Oli's have a range where they'll stop spamming sideB, because it's too unsafe, so they'll start spamming grab. You can just blaster them when they do that.

PowaStar said:
Whenever I get the stock lead in a match I just sit and kill Pikmin (I forward air in the same place unless they try to approach which Wolf can definetly stop. ) When he runs out of Pikmin I shoot a laser they take damage I rinse and repeat if they're dumb enough to keep throwing pikmin at me. Of course you can also reflect them back. When spacing make sure if you miss you move a tad bit away so you won't get drastically punished (that means you should be using autocanceled aerials.)

Ishieymoro said:
SH fair won't hit Olimar at max range if he's just standing there Shine counters all pikmin attacks quite well. SHFF bair > shine if you think they're going to shieldgrab you, or smash OoS.

Our uair clanks with and then outprioritizes his dair, lol. Get him above you and ensue ****. If he tries to use upB right after you shine him it will fail to sweetspot, hopefully olimar mains don't know that yet >_>

DarkLouis331 said:
-Watch out when you approach Olimar. Usually if you bair (heck...attack him in general) his shield and you're not careful, he will grab you.

-Use retreating Fair frequently. Fair is also the best move for getting Pikmin off of you.

-Use alot more blaster in this matchup. Try to get him to approach you, I find him easier to shield grab than other characters.

-Be AGGRESSIVE when you get him offstage, his recovery is absolutely terrible. And try to force him to recover low. Use Dthrow/grab release near the edge. Gimp him with your shine, and if you haven't learned speed hugging the edge, learn it nao. It's amazing if Oli recovers low and you predict his tether grab. The only thing you really need to watch out for offstage is whistle spam...which obviously gives him invincibility frames.

Seagull Man said:
Based on my experience playing Olimar. Best thing is to grab him back. Irony is sweet. ^_^. Plenty of Shad's behind or in front to confuse and pivot grabs can make Olimar have a hardass time. It's should be noted that his pivot grab doesn't have super armor like most pivot grabs.

xzax1337 said:
Just CAMP HIS DUMBAZZ. At first his pikmin my block your lazers but keep on shooting. They are a temporary wall. Also grabbing unexpectedly is a good way to get them offstage(fthrow or dthrow) to try and set up a gimp. Shining offstage his good but watch out for his down b, if he uses that to block your shine, your in trouble. My best advice is play it safe and SPACE fair and bair, dont mess up.

Gheb 01 said:
Ftilt is good because Oli "can't" grab you out of it. Ftilt will intercept his grab because it doesn't have a "grab armor" (hate that term).

Reccomended Counterpicks:
Battlefield
Yoshi's Island
Jungle Japes
Rainbow Cruise
Frigate Orpheon
Castle Siege

Reccomended Stage Bans:
Lylat Cruise

Ice Climbers
Rating: 55:45 Ice Climber's favor
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8781171#post8781171

Random Info

Ishieymoro said:
Gimp them whenever you have the chance. Shine is pretty good at this, from my experience. Uhhh, yeah, don't get grabbed >_> Wolf can space and run away fairly well, so this shouldn't be a huge issue unless you keep messing up.

Do not end up above ICs in general, their utilt will likely land them a grab and their uair is amazing. Jumpshine has helped me out a bit in this matchup, but shine in general is very effective (reflects blizzard/ice blocks, separates ICs). If you ever grab one of them, use fthrow because it's fast and will hit both if they are nearby (info from JJ).

Atomsk_92 said:
Umm i just camp a lot and space bairs and fairs. Your up and dsmash seperate them. Then just camp the popo once it gets down to just him

Blargy said:
They can pivot grab you like no other you only have a couple of safe moves that cant be pivoted (there regular grab sucks tho )......there uair ***** like no other so NEVER go above them there desync blizzards are makes you have to approach diffrerently.

Usmash and Dsmash are good at splitting them apart and its always best to go after nana just hit them away charge a Dsmash and let nana come and get hit from it.

AC fairs and space bairs work pretty well (they can pivot a Bair tho but cant the fair) never shine blizzard or IB since they leave you wide open for a grab.
But in a nutshell just camp like no other and when he gets near you do a hit and run strategy and keep camping those platforms (watch for the uair **** though) and use AC fair and bairs most of the time.

Reccomended Counterpicks:
Brinstar
Battlefield
Rainbow Cruise
Frigate Orpheon

Reccomended Stage Bans:
Final Destination

R.O.B
Rating: 55:45 R.O.B's Favor

Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8858346#post8858346

Random Info:

Ishieymoro said:
ROB gets owned by Wolf in aerial combat imo. Bairs chain oh so nicely on him :D

If he utilts you at low %, you'll end up at like 40% or something after the usmash. Our blaster stops his gyro when he shoots it out though, so that's good. I feel that ROB has the advantage on the ground.

Also, ROB can't airdodge out of his upB unless he stops boosting and uses an attack, but that shouldn't be a very common scenario against good ROBs. If it ever happens, shine through whatever they might throw out and fair/bair, should connect unless they immediately airdodge, I think.

Lil. Will said:
Everyone has said it all ready R.O.B. can't do squat when he is in the air nothing, zilch, nada, zip. (He can air-dodge but thats easily read if your good at juggling.) Being too far away from R.O.B is a no-no he can camp pretty well if the R.O.B player is smart at it. It should be common knowledge that you can reflect his projectiles. I only Fsmash for punishing. If he uses a SH Fair perfect shield into a SH Fair or Bair ( If your back is turned) R.O.B can gimp Wolf but its tough if the Wolf knows how to recover effeciently. Mostly when R.O.B is recovering he will shoot a laser or Gyro to add on extra damage or stop what you were trying to do to him. You shouldn't go off stage really to deal damage or whatever unless he is high up for a Fair kill. If you get the Gyro don't just immediatelty chuck it at him shoot with your blaster a bit this causes pressure into the R.O.B players mind because now he has to think when you are going to throw it. Better yet you can Z-drop the item then quickly use an aerial to deal damage and the juicy part is while damaging R.O.B you will re-grab the Gyro!! I do this whenever I get the chance using the blaster while mixing up with aerials will probably make the R.O.B. user forget about the gyro that you have since you were pummeling him which sucks for R.O.B. if your holding a fully charged gyro. I also use the Gyro for edgeguarding, and to read peoples rolls its flashly and useful. R.O.B. has a hard time killing in general and to top it off Wolf is a heavyweight AND he has some great horizontal resistance which makes Fsmash tough to use. You can SDI (Smash Directional Influence) out of his Dsmash by mashing up on your control stick its tough to do especially since Wolf is heavy. R.O.B.'s Nair can get predictable most of the time I see one using it is if:

They are recovering towards the stage.

They are hanging on the ledge and need some breathing room to get back on.

They are coming from above trying to stop your juggling attempts mostly they'll do a retreating Nair.

When thay are below you.

Out of Shield they'll retreat most definetly in this scenario you can punish with anything basically. (well not everything.)

The most annoying moves will probably be these:

Ftilt (Espescially if its perfectly spaced)

Dtilt

Medium charged Robo Beam.

Dsmash (They will mostly use this out of shield or a spotdodge.)

SH Fair If its autocanceled R.O.B. can do two in a single short hop so beware of those mixups.
Your most annoying moves to R.O.B are probably these.

Bair (Don't over use this make sure you use it in a smart way and space well with it.)

Any move keep him in the air.

Mid-range Blaster?

Fair (puts him in the air )

DarkLouis331 said:
Use more Uthrow on ROB. You can juggle him pretty easily for damage.

And watch for ROB to use spotdodge>Dsmash on the ground. It's godly.

Atomsk_92 said:
Don't get hit off the stage.

SelfPossessed said:
Don't get hit off the stage at low percents.

When he throws/hits you off stage, try DIing up and towards, not away. Away is never worth it (avoiding the attack by DIing away just ensures that you will die, so DI up and towards). At high enough percents, it can save you from getting KOed off the side. At mid to high percents, it will make killing you with an offstage Fair more difficult.

If he starts chasing you offstage after you've been knocked away a decent distance (as in, not low percents) and you are positioned to land on the stage with a DJ (as in, you DIed real good), you can DJ AD onto the stage. Worst case, he hits you towards the stage center. Do NOT DJ AD if you cannot land on the stage with it (forced to up B = edgeguarded).

If he starts chasing you offstage and you cannot DJ AD onto the stage, beware of using your DJ. If you feel lucky, you can try DJ Fair to beat out his Fair (maybe) and hopefully launch him far enough away or just jump over him to land on the stage. Otherwise, don't use your DJ. DJ Shine (you lose horizontal movement and side B is too slow) and DJ Blaster (you hit him = frame disadvantage) will get you killed. You're better off getting hit by the Fair while saving your DJ.

If he hits you with a Fair offstage, make sure you are DIing up and towards. If you're fast enough, you can probably SDI a bit as well. That should send you up enough after the hit so you can DJ over him, or at least attempt a side B if you don't have your DJ.

Reccomended Counterpicks:
Halberd
Brinstar
Battlefield

Reccomended Stage Bans:
Rainbow Cruise
Frigate Orpheon

Kirby
Rating: 50:50

Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8923867#post8923867

Random Info:

Seagull Man said:
Kirby does have the worst jab cancel of any characters with a regular type jab. So getting grabbed that way should be virtually impossible unless you are just constantly shielding. Avoid Kirby at edges at all times. He will Kirbycide if he knows what he is doing because Wolf has about 80% chance of not making it back. Don't follow Kirby over edge unless your under him and use an uair or fair. Bair is an obviously bad choice because then you get Kirbycided. Kirby has a combo type grab on Wolf. If he does fthrow>uair>fthrow>uair>fsmash. You can perfect shield the fsmash every time. That should not hit you.

Wolf should distance himself with Lasers. B reversal lasers work great in this matchup. Also space bairs. Getting grabbed isn't good in any matchup, this one especially. Retreating Fairs virtually beats Kirby's entire air game. Use Shine to not get juggled. If a Kirby follows up or over edge. Shine is best option because he can't beat Shine. Kirby is light. Wolf is heavy. The only move in Kirby's arsenal to avoid is his Fsmash. If he stales it then your 100% good. Stale is like 2 Kirby Fsmash. Watch out for his Uair's ******** hitbox. Grab him and combo. I'll think of more later.

Atomsk_92 said:
Fair and Uair beat kirby's down air.
Btw you should never be in a spot where dair should hit you really...Kirby has to approach you, and you really don't let him with proper spacing and camping.
Just fair a lot more then bairing...Lazer camp lots when he's far away and be careful while he's close up cause kirby's roll to utilt is ****ing broken. I don't think kirby's tech roll is that good either so you can easily get him with dthrow combo's at higher %'s

You can shine out of his grab combos, You can smash Di utilts and shine out of them.

Just force him to approach and read his ONLY approaches. Bair camp, spaced fair, dash shield, or dash roll behind/side step.

Kain said:
Punish his fsmash if u block it. DI up out of his uair during his low % grab combo to get out its possible. If he just wants to keep bairing fair him or bair him back. I dont see how his bair is that much greater than ours? I still think wolf's is better plus he moves better in the air anyway. DI out of his utilt and react correctly either shining or moving away. You can laser camp him.

rvkevin said:
Wolf's Fair, when spaced, is nonpunishable on shield, even when Perfect Shielded...Kirby's Bair is fairly easy to punish with Usmash OoS. If Wolf just Blasters to make Kirby go into the air and then do retreating Fairs when he gets close, Wolf wins. Only thing Kirby can do is gimp, but if you have good DI, it shouldn't happen often.

Reccomended Counterpicks:
Final Destination
Smashville

Reccomended Stage Bans:
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes

Lucario
Rating: 50:50

Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9011680#post9011680

Random Info:

_Kain_ said:
Jumpshine in this matchup works wonders. Goes thru all of Lucario's aura aerials

KRDsonic said:
Bair seems to wreck Lucario. Blaster seems to work well in this matchup. You can shine his Uthrows so he can't chain grab you, though he can mindgame you into shining and just shield grab it, so it's a guessing game. I take Lucarios to Brinstar since we kill early there, and we definitely do not need Lucario living to high percentages.

Atomst_92 said:
Just fair lucario.

Sesshomuronay said:
I would try to keep wolfs d-smash fresh since you don't want lucario living to high percent.

Goldenadept said:
I know reflector is really good in this MU as well, for hitting aura sphere's back and breaking combo's. If the lucario is recovering low, its like wolf, a speed hug will end him and if he's recovering high the only lucario is play likes to counter me when i chase him... that being said, baiting counter guarantees you a hit.

Reccomended Counterpicks:
Brinstar
Yoshi's Island

Reccomended Stage Bans:
Pokemon Stadium 1

Zero Suit Samus
Rating: 55:45 Wolf's Favor

Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9257585#post9257585

Random Info:

Goldenadept said:
when approaching you can z drop pieces of armor and knock her into it with a bair or a throw etc, thats zamus's main game with them so i just use them that way too.

rvkevin said:
Never dash attack to pick up a banana unless your opponent is serious preoccupied...you're just going to get punished and half the time drop the item in the process. It might be useful to know if ZSS can punish a grounded shine when she throws items forwards.

SelfPossessed said:
Do NOT use grounded Shine against suit pieces. Seriously. You're just asking for a glide toss up -> Dsmash chain of death. I mean, if shining Diddy's bananas causes Diddy to glide toss down -> whatever, why would doing it to ZSS, whose glide toss has far more range and has a massive Dsmash chain, be any better?

Note that if you're trying to Shine on reaction, you'll probably get the invincibility frames of Shine instead of the reflecting frames and you should probably go for shield instead. If you try to hold it earlier for the reflect, eat Dsmash.

tedeth said:
Grounded shine doesn't really work well at all. Don't do it unless you're sure they're going to throw forward. Also jumping up and shining though a bouncing armor piece is good because it does indeed make it yours. I like to concentrate on getting rid of the armor pieces rather than trying to use them. They can **** pretty hard.

However, if you do space your bair incorrectly then yeah you'll get hit and ZSS' bair will KO really well when fresh so don't get complacent if she takes to the air. Her other good kill option is forward b of course. It's got amazing range but it's quite slow. As long as you're aware of it you shouldn't have too much trouble though.

Seagull Man said:
Our bair is faster, comes out quicker, and more range. It is what wrecks Zss largely. Your Uair combos Wolf pretty well when you can land it. It can usually combo about 2-3 times at low percentages. I find reflecting Zss parts in singles matches to be really really easy, but maybe that's just me. I usually reflect them or just jump to avoid them and get rid of them all together. Wolf can air release Zss into side b sweet spotted(Fun fact I tested). Zss dies pretty early and it takes her awhile to kill. She doesn't exactly gimp either. When in the air watch out for Zss Uair and that's pretty much her best kill move. Bair she usually only gets through Dsmash. Side b she needs to either follow you over stage horizontally or mind game you. She has a Dsmash lock she can setup, but it's rather easy to SDI.

Sesshomuronay said:
Avoid being above her. She has a lot of really good vertical attacks such as up-b, u-smash and u-air for juggling. Camping is a good idea for this matchup. Her side-b has no hitbox in the middle of it which is good to know(her grab is also kind of weird).

Reccomended Counterpicks:
Final Destination
Smashville

Reccomended Stage Bans:
Battlefield
Lylat Cruise

Toon Link
Rating: 50:50
Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9378474#post9378474

Ishieymoro said:
Walk > PS to approach through his projectiles. Not hard to do at all, and very very helpful.

_Kain_ said:
TL does not have an easy time killing his kill moves are easy to see comin. Learning to PS is a must dont shine stuff unless ur far away.

Against his Z-air it's best just to charge in and PS it. Spot dodging and shining it leave u open to be hit

Seagull_Man said:
Bait his Usmash or grounded Uair. Just stay grounded. Powershield or shield the Usmash and Dsmash him.

tekkie said:
fsmash beats arrows and boomerangs

shine beats like all aerials if done with awesome spacing, as usual

xzax1337 said:
Toon link is a weird mu. His spam you can't beat with your spam and your reflector but mainly if he has a great camping game, you must approach. Our bair outranged his fair so look to bair A LOT in this mu. At low %(0-15%) if he hits you with a dsmash at the end of the stage it will send you REALLY far off the stage, you will still be able to recover but look out for the spam because if it hits you, your dead.

Reccomended Counterpicks:
Yoshi's Island
Final Destination
Smashville

Reccomended Stage Bans:
Battleship Halberd
Frigate Orpheon

Pit
Rating: 55:45 Pit's Favor
Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9659653#post9659653

Random Info:

tekkie said:
fine. here's my take on the worst character ever: Pit

first of all, before you start the match, make sure to poke fun at your opponent because pit's lame.

second, when you start the first match, shine. there's a good chance they're gonna try to shoot you straight up, and this is a free arrow to the face. now that that's done, run around and try to hit him with bair. DON'T FSMASH OR DO ANYTHING PUNISHABLE. pit's grab sucks but a grab at 0 is a free %32 at least, up to %60 if you dont DI away or roll away or something.

fsmash twice beats that stupid forward B crap iirc; once clashes it out and the second hits him. fair isnt that great in this matchup because that ****ty sword/bow thing has decent range. use it as a punisher. watch out for bair and fair; they have weird startup so you might try to attack only to get a sword to the face.

when you get knocked offstage prepare to freak out if your opponent is good with arrows. if they play their cards right, you're in trouble. five arrows in a row is a **** good gimp tool. if you're horizontal enough, you could probably jump and airdodge at the same time and then side B, but wolf can get shot during the start of his wolf flash so in an ideal situation you cant really recover. if you hold shine for a while they might back off but the whole recovering against pit thing is just hoping for the best.

also if pit sits on the edge, dont try to do anything because hes gonna uair you and that move is a *****. it outprioritizes a lot of ****, and that dsmash/dtilt isnt gonna happen. he'll also probably try to juggle you with it. so don't get hit. lol

eventually, pit is gonna try to kill you with fair, bair, or fsmash. you can DI out of the first hit of fsmash. fair and bair **** face. watch out for that crap.

basically, if you start playing defensively, pit will probably start mixing up actual approaches with arrows. dont get hit. be careful with shine; the cooldown can get you *****.

oh and shine glide attack.

pit isnt too hard to kill but if you whiff a smash you're gonna get hit. same with pit, though. lol. fsmash is a good punisher. just be prepared to use it ONLY WHEN YOU KNOW IT WILL HIT

this matchup is a *****, and i know the boards will probably conclude with "bair is awesome 70:30 wolf" but realistically its probably slight advantage pit or something

Reccomended Counterpicks:
Yoshi's Island
Smashville
Battlefield

Reccomended Stage Bans:
Rainbow Cruise

Donkey Kong
Rating: 60:40 Wolf's Favor
Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9769802#post9769802

Random Info:

Destrawr said:
DK is ***** by the lazer.
Dont forget to bair spam.

Seagull Man said:
Dk can kill at like 20% everyone, but getting in Wolf's spacing game is hard itself. Dk's Bair is like the only thing better because it's range is bigger and such. Wolf can bair wall, shield stab at like full, laser camp, and shine gimp Dk. He also is big like D3 so he can be combo'd pretty good. Yet he doesn't have a cg like D3.

Avoid Yoshi's island and it's pretty one sided in my opinion. That stage is the only stage where Dk has a large advantage because of the edges that give auto up b options. Just ban that and you're good.

Dk can Dtilt lock on walls, but so can Wolf so keep that in mind. Shine>aaa true combo if you short hop. Or Shine>Dtilt.

rvkevin said:
DK can't approach in the air, he can't SH over lasers and if he gets hit, he gets turned around making him vulnerable. If he FHs over the lasers, every option is pretty much punished on reaction. When he's approaching on the ground, he is facing towards Wolf. Close up, DK's Fsmash, Side B, Down B, etc. are punishable on shield or Wolf can Jumpshine away. And Wolf's Fair is probably safe on shield while DK doesn't have many options that are safe on shield. Wolf's aerial speed makes him so much better in the air, as well as Bair and Shine outclassing DK's aerials. DK has more trouble gimping Wolf than Wolf does to DK. DK's KO moves are too slow to be reliable so chances are he will kill with aerials. His weight isn't that great for his size and his size makes him more prone to shield pokes. I fail to see one aspect of game play that DK has the advantage. Just camp, and its pretty hopeless for DK.

KRDsonic said:
- DK is easy to spike out of his Up B.
- Always DI up and towards the stage when you're offstage and about to get hit (should be obvious).
- Watch out for random Fsmashes.
- Shine works well when you're both in the air.
- If DK techs Dthrow for some reason, you get a free Fsmash on him if you predict where he will roll.
- Our Bair gives him more trouble than his Bair gives us.
- Dsmash will not be used to kill as much in this matchup as it is in most. In my experiences, Fair and Dair are my primary ways of killing in this matchup.
- Don't be afraid of his charged punch. It should not force you to change your playstyle very much at all.
- Do NOT roll towards him (This should be a given in a lot of matchups).
- Grounded lasers aren't as good as areal lasers because areal lasers are better at shield poking.
- Platforms don't seem to help either character more than the other in this matchup.
- Delphino seems to be a good CP stage for DK due to the water. It seems to be one of the few stages where his spikes are actually more useful than ours. I can't think of any stage that's good to pick against DK. I'd say pick whatever stage you're most comfortable with.

It's a fairly straight-forward matchup. Neither character has anything extremely gay on the other. Wolf can get around being edgeguarded to the extreme, DK can get around laser camping, there's a lot of Bairs on both sides, and both sides tend to do best when playing high risk. Wolf is required to play with consistency for this matchup, and DK is required to use more mindgames in this matchup.

D0N said:
My general thoughts: Without the laser, It's a pretty even fight/slight DK advantage imo. This is just including things like edge gaurding, spacing, b-airs (lol) and kill percents/moves. But since Wolf has a gun, he gets to control the action more and force DK into bad situations (makes him approach). DK's goal is to find a way past the spam in a way that won't get him beat down (may take a few tries...), then do as much damage as he can and/or kill wolf before the situation resets itself. DK gets lots of time to figure out a way inside wolf's camping as long as he can avoid d-smash from wolf, and even if he doesn't avoid it he still can afford to take more punishment than wolf can.

Wolf can edgegaurd DK pretty well, but I think the odds of you shine gimping one are slim and it's probly more trouble than it's worth. There are much more practical options. Spiking DK is easier said than done too, though it's definately an option for us to look out for.

Wolf should pick FD and other large stages and DK should lean towards small stages...

Reccomended Counterpicks:
Delphino Plaza
Final Destination
Smashville

Reccomended Stage Bans:
Yoshi's Island

Peach
Rating: 50:50
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198969

Reccomended Counterpicks:

Luigi
Rating: 55:45
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198858

Reccomended Counterpicks:

Fox
Rating: 55:45
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198192

Reccomended Counterpicks:

Sonic
Rating: 55:45
Discussion
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200397

Reccomended Counterpicks:

Sheik
Rating: 40:60
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198375

Reccomended Counterpicks:

Bowser
Rating: 55:45
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198757

Reccomended Counterpicks:

Zelda
Rating: 60:40
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198375

Reccomended Counterpicks:

Pokemon Trainer
Rating: Squirtle: 45:55; Ivysaur: 60:40; Charizard: 55:45; Overall: 55:45
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199769

Reccomended Counterpicks:

Ike
Rating: 60:40
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199200

Reccomended Counterpicks:

Lucas
Rating: 60:40
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199393

Reccomended Counterpicks:

Mario
Rating: 55:45
Discussion (p. 1-4):
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188329

Reccomended Counterpicks:

Ness
Rating: 55:45
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199570

Reccomended Counterpicks:

Yoshi
Rating: 60:40
Discussion
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200192

Reccomended Counterpicks:

Samus
Rating: 60:40
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199983

Reccomended Counterpicks:

Jigglypuff
Rating: 70:30
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200896

Reccomended Counterpicks:

Captain Falcon
Rating: 65:35
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201074

Reccomended Counterpicks:

Link
Rating: 60:40
Discussion (p. 6):
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188329&page=6

Reccomended Counterpicks:

Ganondorf
Rating: 70:30
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201074

Reccomended Counterpicks:

Sesshomuronay · Jun 16, 2009

Ok uh, lets like y'know rediscuss metaknight.

He's fast, can juggle you and has the whorenado which can be tough to beat. He has a much better air game and a lot of his ground techniques outrange yours. We have the blaster which is a bit of a plus, but metaknight has quite a few advantage over wolf such as recovery. Wolfs heavier so he has a bit of an advantage in KO ability, but metaknight has a big advanatge is speed and how he is very hard to punish.

As for counterpicks I would just go to smashville or final destination, most of the stages he would just be better on than you anyways but if anyone has any other suggestions then please explain.

tekkie · Jun 16, 2009

Smashville/Battlefield/YI would make recovery easier which is important because once you leave the stage you're in deep ****.

lol @ trying to punish MK. But if he does something supremely stupid you'd better get on it.

_Kain_ · Jun 16, 2009

Shine if u somehow DI out of his tornado to stop it. I also find it easy to shine him out of his tornado or u could blaster him out of it. If u can't do these then just block and aim your shield up and try punish him after if you can. I like Battlefield and YI against him like tekkie said makes recovery easy and I feel like the platforms kind of limit his aerial versatility. Ban either Rainbow Cruise or Luigi's Mansion he's too **** good on those stages

~ Gheb ~ · Jun 16, 2009

Sesshomuronay said:
He has a much better air game and a lot of his ground techniques outrange yours.

Wolfs retreating fair beats all of MKs aerials either due to range (fair, bair) or OoS (dair) and wolf is more mobile in the air then MK. Just don't be an idiot and jum right into his aerials and you should do fine. Play your aerial gime like Wario - be evasive and agile. Patience is the key if you wanna deal with his aerial game. Just use bair/fair only when you're sure to hit him.

Wolfs ftilt also beats most of MKs ground moves.

I find wolfs AAA to be amazing, especially vs MK...

-Jumpman- · Jun 16, 2009

Could Ishieymoro please post my post here? I had this huge post about this matchup.

Seagull Joe · Jun 16, 2009

i really think its 40-60.not 35-65.laser can beat nado,fair is longer then glide attack and quicker,well spaced bairs work wonders.bad things is that he can dair gimp us easy but he does the same thing to olimar and others.yea he can juggle us to.

Ishiey · Jun 16, 2009

I agree with Kain's stages, and I also think that the jab combo is very useful against MK (especially if your opponent likes to spotdodge).

Jumpman's advice condensed: outspace with bair when MK SHs and pressure him with bairs, DI away to avoid SL followups, FH aerials OoS to punish SL, FH fair OoS works against dair camping and fair pressure, bait a dash with bairs and fsmash it (once they get conditioned to shield just switch to dashgrabs, typical stuff), save your jump or DJ AD when offstage (2nd if he'd kill you, once again common tactics).

Sess, can you post a link in the MK boards so that we can get some feedback from them as well?

Dv8tor · Jun 16, 2009

Please god no arguments from MK players. Sick of match-up discussions turning into a bunch of angst with players trying to say their character is better.

Ishiey · Jun 16, 2009

Uh.... MK is better than wolf ._.

And we need input from both sides, otherwise chances are ridiculously high that we're being biast. Other boards ask for our input and we do what we can for them, why would they do any different for us?

-Jumpman- · Jun 16, 2009

There's a very little amount of experienced MKs active on the MK boards. It's a waste of time to post there. Just ask Gaki.

impostoroak557 · Jun 16, 2009

I use Blaster a lot in this match-up. I would say shine a lot if you ever end up above him.

castorpollux · Jun 16, 2009

the entire wolf vs MK match up is knowing how to punish MK.... that's it. Wolf does best on stages with lots of room and like FD

~ Gheb ~ · Jun 16, 2009

-Jumpman- said:
Just ask Gaki.

On MSN (a while ago):

gebh: "you got any tips vs MK?"
okirogaki: "just spam perfectly spaced bairs all day ololololol"

impostoroak557 · Jun 16, 2009

castorpollux said:
the entire wolf vs MK match up is knowing how to punish MK.... that's it. Wolf does best on stages with lots of room and like FD

Although Wolf's recovery is harder on FD, which probably makes him easy to gimp.

Sesshomuronay · Jun 16, 2009

castorpollux said:
the entire wolf vs MK match up is knowing how to punish MK.... that's it. Wolf does best on stages with lots of room and like FD

I agree, its good to make him approach and them attempt to punish him. At least meta knight is forced to approach so youve got that going for you at least. And punishing metaknight may be hard, but not impossible.

I would try to avoid fullhopping too much in this matchup as he could just use a well times tornado. But I'm not really an expert so I'll need a bunch of input from other people cuz I don't trust my own advice.

And I went to the MK boards and asked in their social thread thingy, as I think its against the rules to like start a new thread.

Darxmarth23 · Jun 16, 2009

Freak em out.

Somehow.

Mk mains will play well only if their emotions allow it. Don't expect a comeback if you turn their face red.

I don't know too much about the match ups of SSBB. But I am quite good at realizing which characters performance relies on the players emotions and how much. Mk isn't too emotionally attatched, but its enough to give you a considerable boost.

That means mind games that are safe enough and will work. Keep Mk thinking. Eventually Mk will probably ***** the situation with tornado, in which we all know how to punish. Use safe options when you think you can be punished, and unsafe options when you know you will land a hit.

JCav · Jun 16, 2009

i dont like matchup threads, we have a good general idea how our character stacks up against others,
i like jjs "what to do vs this character" thread

but ya always need the matchup thread for newcomers

Sesshomuronay · Jun 17, 2009

JimboCav09 said:
i dont like matchup threads, we have a good general idea how our character stacks up against others,
i like jjs "what to do vs this character" thread

but ya always need the matchup thread for newcomers

I could always like include a quote of useful stuff like on the other thread if you wanted me too. We could always ditch the number system and just say small advantage, advantage, large disadvantage etc instead if everyone wanted to.

tekkie · Jun 17, 2009

Have we contacted the MK board yet? I think getting their input is pretty important.

-Jumpman- · Jun 17, 2009

On MSN (a while ago):

gebh: "you got any tips vs MK?"
okirogaki: "just spam perfectly spaced bairs all day ololololol"

Well there you go. Advice from the best, you must be happy huh

castorpollux · Jun 17, 2009

gaki gives that advice vs any character. It isn't exactly the most helpful thing in the world... and it wouldn't work against good metaknights. You need more than just bair

Staco · Jun 17, 2009

MK destroys Wolf.
Its like 70:30 or better for MK.

MKs Tornado hurts Wolf really hard at close range play.
Also MKs range beats Wolfs range + air speed.

If MK gets the lead, he can simply outcamp Wolf. (Wolfs projectile sucks, so MK really doesnt need to approach Wolf, if MK gets the lead. Wolf cant mix up his projectile and his attacks very good, because his approach is based on deffensive spacing and because his projectile is slow/easy to avoid (no problem for a 5 jump MK to avoid it and getting back to a neutral position, while wolf got blaster lag and isnt really fast))

MK can **** any of Wolf recoveries. MK can simply DAir Wolfs Side B and Up B. Since the startup is very big its not hard to punish it, if Wolf has to recover. (MK Dairs the Side B, if used to get over the edge or he just grabs the edge, if Wolf tries to hang on it)
I sometimes just stand at the edge of the stage, wait for the Side B, in the moment where Wolf starts it I just jump up and DAir and it mostly hits Wolf in the side B animation back off the stage. (its not that hard, I also did it wifi xD)

This MU is so easy for MK.
He got the overall lead at everything, except projectiles and air speed. But since Wolfs air game isnt as good as Warios (his aerials doesnt fit very well to it and they dont make much damage) and since his projectiles suck, MK really destroys Wolf.

~ Gheb ~ · Jun 17, 2009

-Jumpman- said:
There's a very little amount of experienced MKs active on the MK boards. It's a waste of time to post there.

Staco said:
MK destroys Wolf.
Its like 70:30 or better for MK.

MKs Tornado hurts Wolf really hard at close range play.
Also MKs range beats Wolfs range + air speed.

If MK gets the lead, he can simply outcamp Wolf. (Wolfs projectile sucks, so MK really doesnt need to approach Wolf, if MK gets the lead. Wolf cant mix up his projectile and his attacks very good, because his approach is based on deffensive spacing and because his projectile is slow/easy to avoid (no problem for a 5 jump MK to avoid it and getting back to a neutral position, while wolf got blaster lag and isnt really fast))

MK can **** any of Wolf recoveries. MK can simply DAir Wolfs Side B and Up B. Since the startup is very big its not hard to punish it, if Wolf has to recover. (MK Dairs the Side B, if used to get over the edge or he just grabs the edge, if Wolf tries to hang on it)
I sometimes just stand at the edge of the stage, wait for the Side B, in the moment where Wolf starts it I just jump up and DAir and it mostly hits Wolf in the side B animation back off the stage. (its not that hard, I also did it wifi xD)

This MU is so easy for MK.
He got the overall lead at everything, except projectiles and air speed. But since Wolfs air game isnt as good as Warios (his aerials doesnt fit very well to it and they dont make much damage) and since his projectiles suck, MK really destroys Wolf.

Jumpman is too good.

-Jumpman- · Jun 17, 2009

Also MKs range beats Wolfs range + air speed.

No, Wolf definitely has more range. Especially in the air. This combined with his speed makes dair camping quite annoying. Have you seen DEHF vs M2k? DEHF bairs him if he dair camps, well Wolf counters this even better with u-air and fair.

If MK gets the lead, he can simply outcamp Wolf. (Wolfs projectile sucks, so MK really doesnt need to approach Wolf, if MK gets the lead. Wolf cant mix up his projectile and his attacks very good, because his approach is based on deffensive spacing and because his projectile is slow/easy to avoid (no problem for a 5 jump MK to avoid it and getting back to a neutral position, while wolf got blaster lag and isnt really fast))

I have found it to be quite hard to play defensively against perfectly spaced bairs. They destroy your shield very quickly. Wolf covers a lot of space with his aerials and playing defensively is easily punished by his aerials, jabs and f-smash.

MK can **** any of Wolf recoveries. MK can simply DAir Wolfs Side B and Up B. Since the startup is very big its not hard to punish it, if Wolf has to recover. (MK Dairs the Side B, if used to get over the edge or he just grabs the edge, if Wolf tries to hang on it)
I sometimes just stand at the edge of the stage, wait for the Side B, in the moment where Wolf starts it I just jump up and DAir and it mostly hits Wolf in the side B animation back off the stage. (its not that hard, I also did it wifi xD)

Wolf's recovery isn't easily gimped, might sound simple, but it isn't. You guys believe whatever you want, because theoretically convincing anyone is nearly impossible.

He got the overall lead at everything, except projectiles and air speed. But since Wolfs air game isnt as good as Warios (his aerials doesnt fit very well to it and they dont make much damage) and since his projectiles suck, MK really destroys Wolf.

I actually think Wolf's aerials are better than Wario's aerials. More range, faster, more priority. Unpunishable. Spaceable. Just better.

tekkie · Jun 17, 2009

-Jumpman- said:
I actually think Wolf's aerials are better than Wario's aerials. More range, faster, more priority. Unpunishable. Spaceable. Just better.

I dunno. I'd assume Wario is 19 tiers higher than Wolf for some reason.

~ Gheb ~ · Jun 17, 2009

tekkie said:
I dunno. I'd assume Wario is 19 tiers higher than Wolf for some reason.

Heavier, stronger KO moves, better grab range, stronger throws, bite, a move that deals 42% and has SA frames, better aerial control and slower fall speed might be the true reasons.

and lol @ jumpman

"There's a very little amount of experienced MKs active on the MK boards. It's a waste of time to post there."

"Staco has no offline experience and he hasn't played a good Wolf yet."

So it's annoying if I say you're right? Even if you yourself insist on being right? Whatever you say, man...

-Jumpman- · Jun 17, 2009

I thought you believed Staco for some reason... I was like, wtf are you talking about. Lol, sorry Gheb. I kinda expected sarcasm from you.

Ishiey · Jun 17, 2009

tekkie said:
I dunno. I'd assume Wario is 19 tiers higher than Wolf for some reason.

It's grab releases, I just know it.

Staco said:
MKs Tornado hurts Wolf really hard at close range play.
Also MKs range beats Wolfs range + air speed.

Tornado isn't so bad. Shield angled up, blaster if far away, shine, FH bair away to hit through the top, all of those are good options against the tornado. If wolf is hit, he can't do much besides try to DI out the top or shine the first chance he get. This is unlikely though, since you'd have to catch wolf in cooldown or else he'd shine you after the first hit of tornado that pops people up.

Wolf's bair and fair have at least equal range to MK's fair, the only difference is that ours hit once and yours thrice. If we trade one hit each (very possible) wolf comes out on top. Our uair competes with your dair pretty well. Your best bet in the air is uair, which isn't even that much better because we can shine through it. Also, wolf's horizontal air speed is a lot higher than MKs, so I don't know what you're talking about.

If MK gets the lead, he can simply outcamp Wolf. (Wolfs projectile sucks, so MK really doesnt need to approach Wolf, if MK gets the lead. Wolf cant mix up his projectile and his attacks very good, because his approach is based on deffensive spacing and because his projectile is slow/easy to avoid (no problem for a 5 jump MK to avoid it and getting back to a neutral position, while wolf got blaster lag and isnt really fast))

No, he can't. MK does not outrange wolf massively anywhere and can't air camp because of his inferior air speed. You can run away and plank wolf, but not outcamp wolf. You make it sound as if jumping makes you invincible, wolf can jump and blaster you, and since his air speed is better than yours he could just go in with a bair as well. If you airdodge the blaster, wolf can often punish you for it if he's approaching during the FH blaster.

MK can **** any of Wolf recoveries. MK can simply DAir Wolfs Side B and Up B. Since the startup is very big its not hard to punish it, if Wolf has to recover. (MK Dairs the Side B, if used to get over the edge or he just grabs the edge, if Wolf tries to hang on it)
I sometimes just stand at the edge of the stage, wait for the Side B, in the moment where Wolf starts it I just jump up and DAir and it mostly hits Wolf in the side B animation back off the stage. (its not that hard, I also did it wifi xD)

This part is fairly true, MK can gimp an average wolf pretty well. It's nothing like an instant stock, but still one of the biggest threats in the matchup IMO. All of your aerials (if well timed) go through our recovery, but if you mess up and get spiked by sideB the match becomes lol. Wolf should save his second jump for sure, and always DI up to prevent gimps. By doing this, wolf can almost always get back on stage, but MK can still rack up some free damage. At higher %s wolf should always DI up as well, and then the only thing to worry for is shuttle loop. Wolf has more recovery options than others give him credit for though, if you hold onto the ledge too long he can stagespike you with upB, he can semiscar to get above the ledge, he can illusion cancel to shorten his path, etc.

Basically, a good wolf should not be outright gimped by MK, but it is certainly helpful for MK to force wolf to recover because it's usually around 15% free damage.

This MU is so easy for MK.
He got the overall lead at everything, except projectiles and air speed. But since Wolfs air game isnt as good as Warios (his aerials doesnt fit very well to it and they dont make much damage) and since his projectiles suck, MK really destroys Wolf.

Well, I already talked about the air game. Blaster doesn't suck, it's just not meant for spam.

Can we get some more MKs in here? I want to hear what others think, I know some that think it's 45:55 and then others (like Staco) that think it's 30:70 and I'm curious as to why they think what they do.

Sesshomuronay · Jun 17, 2009

Ishieymoro said:
Well, I already talked about the air game. Blaster doesn't suck, it's just not meant for spam.

Can we get some more MKs in here? I want to hear what others think, I know some that think it's 45:55 and then others (like Staco) that think it's 30:70 and I'm curious as to why they think what they do.

I posted in their social thread as on their boards there is a sticky that specifically says don't make threads on xxx is discussing metaknight.

If anyone wants to go get people go ahead.

CO18 · Jun 18, 2009

lol @ this being 7:3. Its 6:4 at worse IMO. Im tired right now so Ill write up some stuff 2morrowww

castorpollux · Jun 18, 2009

yeah it's def. not 7:3

otherwise I would be getting ***** at tournies all the time

choice_brawler · Jun 18, 2009

I like sess's idea of staying away from numbers, does it really help any wolf players that are playing the match up to think "hmm, this match up is 40-60 so it wont be easy." Sorry to those who love the numbers or somethin but yea.

I find grabbing MK every chance you get helps a lot in this match up. Which goes along with what JJ said in knowing how to punish MK. Most the time, a grab wont be one of the options you have for punishing. Gotta be patient sometimes with what you should punish, recognizing when a wiffed move is not a bait.

Master Raven · Jun 18, 2009

Wario's aerials are overall better than Wolf's. Wolf's Bair is better and I guess you could argue over who has the better Fair, but that's about it.

Sesshomuronay · Jun 18, 2009

Master Raven said:
Wario's aerials are overall better than Wolf's. Wolf's Bair is better and I guess you could argue over who has the better Fair, but that's about it.

Wolf has better horizontal aerials but wario has better vertical aerials imo. And wolfs F-air is pretty dang good, I mean I think it has more range than marths f-air.

And got anything to add about metaknight?

Sesshomuronay · Jun 19, 2009

Ok I added some stuff to the metaknight part. If anybody doesn't like what I put down for the tips or counterpicks than please post and show that you disagree, give reasons why and argue whatever you believe to be correct. I'll like take quotes from what we discuss and shove them in there, so if the quotes are meh or don't make sense/work then please post. And lets get some more useful stuff too.

I think most of us agree that MK has the advantage, so lets like discuss how to combat him specifically so other wolfs can look here for advice.

tekkie · Jun 19, 2009

Wario's dair is so ****.

Also, from messing around with MK, it seems that any move by MK beats Wolf's fair.

Darxmarth23 · Jun 19, 2009

I would have B-air, blaster, and shine as my main priorities in this match up.

Never get too close to Mk. Hand-to-hand or in-your-face combat is not good at all. Space, and annoy.

Never get below him. Damage him horizontally, and kill him horizontally. Any opportunity Mk gets to lash out a d-air he will.

If he tornadoes, you run and b-reverse blaster.

Watch out for his f-tilt and d-tilt. They have surprising range and can be used defensively quite a lot. D-tilt trips at low and moderate percentages.

His f-air can be b-aired.

Your AC f-air is not recommended.

Be patient. Don't try to gimp Mk. Have some common sense.

With this if find the match up to be 6-4 Mk.

This is through my testing and is my opinion only. Hope it sums it up and helps.

Sesshomuronay · Jun 21, 2009

Ok good stuff guys. Since I'm not sure if we're going to get anything else for MK we can move on to snake.

tekkie · Jun 21, 2009

Doesn't shine make you invincible against Nikita? Like, even if it asplodes?

I've been liking uthrow against Snake. Anything to get the ******* in the air.

Out of order, new matchup thread coming soon!

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