Luc's punish game, the remix (we do stuff in here)

Remaking this thread so that this one can be fully dedicated to Luc and not just knocking ideas back and forth. For anyone who is unfamiliar with what this thread is about, read here.

How this will work:

The goal here is to just discuss the best moves or setups Lucario can do against an opponent, depending on what they do to your shield, or if they whiff in front of you completely due to a dodge/airdodge or because of Lucarios good roll.

I've decided to just keep this thread open for discussion to anyone who wishes to help out. I only ask that ANYONE participating in this thread to please at least apply what you say to your game beforehand. I'm a bit tired of playing theorycraft.

How the discussion will unfold:

I'd like to discuss several characters at once. That doesn't mean you have to talk about every character currently being discussed, you're only asked to share as much information as you feel comfortable. Hopefully there is enough people will to participate in this so that any holes left by one person will be filled by another.

I'll try to label as many common scenarios as I can in the beginning for each character but if you feel there should be more added then feel free to add on and I will list it.



Again this thread is all about wanting to exhaust every common scenario Lucario comes across against his opponents. Punishing moves on block/dodge, recoveries, landings, etc. will all be discussed here.


To get the ball rolling, I'd like to first discuss:

Snake
Falco
Donkey Kong
Game and Watch

These characters are fairly obvious and straightforward to punish, so I'd like to start with them so that people may get a better idea on how this thread will work.

An example on how I want to lay this out. If you have any better ideas then feel free to let me know:

(*PSd=perfect shielded)
(*AC=autocancel)



Snake

Punish given move with:

Jab:
----------------

(1)
------
(PSd)

(2)
------
(PSd)

(3)
------
(PSd)

F-tilt:
----------------

(1)
------
(PSd)

(2)
------
(PSd)

Utilt:
----------------
(PSd)

D-tilt:
----------------
(PSd)

Fsmash:
----------------
(PSd)

Usmash:
----------------
(PSd)

Dsmash:
----------------
(PSd)

Nair:
----------------

(ACd)
--------
(PSd)

(no AC)
--------
(PSd)

Uair:
----------------

Dair:
----------------
(PSd)

Bair:
----------------
(PSd)

Fair:
----------------

Dash Attack:
----------------
(PSd)

up B:
----------------


Scenarios:

Nade still in hand:
------------

C4 recovery:
------------

Mortar Slide:
------------


Falco

Punish given move with:

Jab:
----------------

(1)
------
(PSd)

(2)
------
(PSd)

(infinite)
------

F-tilt:
----------------
(PSd)


Utilt:
----------------
(PSd)

D-tilt:
----------------
(PSd)

Fsmash:
----------------
(PSd)

Usmash:
----------------
(PSd)

Dsmash:
----------------
(PSd)

Nair:
----------------
(PSd)

Uair:
----------------

Dair:
----------------
(PSd)

Bair:
----------------
(PSd)

Fair:
----------------

Dash Attack:
----------------
(PSd)

up B:
----------------

side B:
----------------
(PSd)

(cancelled)

neutral B:
----------------

(standing)

down B:
----------------

Scenarios:

SHDL to phantasm:
-------------------

phantasm recovery:
-------------------


Donkey Kong

Punish given move with:

Jab:
----------------

(1)
------
(PSd)

(2)
------
(PSd)

F-tilt:
----------------
(PSd)


Utilt:
----------------
(PSd)

D-tilt:
----------------
(PSd)

Fsmash:
----------------
(PSd)

Usmash:
----------------
(PSd)

Dsmash:
----------------
(PSd)

Nair:
----------------
(PSd)

Uair:
----------------
(PSd)

Dair:
----------------
(PSd)

Bair:
----------------
(PSd)

Fair:
----------------
(PSd)

Dash Attack:
----------------
(PSd)

up B:
----------------

side B:
----------------
(PSd)

neutral B:
----------------
(PSd)

down B:
----------------

Scenarios:

uB onstage with you caught in it:
-------------------

uB recovery:
-------------------

neutral B charge:
-------------------


GaW

Punish given move with:

Jab:
----------------

(1)
------
(PSd)

(infinite)
------

F-tilt:
----------------
(PSd)


Utilt:
----------------
(PSd)

D-tilt:
----------------
(PSd)

Fsmash:
----------------
(PSd)

Usmash:
----------------
(PSd)

Dsmash:
----------------
(PSd)

Nair:
----------------

Uair:
----------------

Dair:
----------------

Bair:
----------------

Fair:
----------------
(PSd)

Dash Attack:
----------------
(PSd)

up B:
----------------

side B:
----------------
(PSd)


neutral B:
----------------

(standing)

down B:
----------------

Scenarios:

uB recovery:
-------------------

-reserved-

what constitutes a move that is to punish? Because technically every attack can punish.

There's obviously levels and degrees to what a move can do, it's just there's usually the downfall of having to sacrifice speed or range in order to do so. Most of these moves will probably be punished by jabs, and that's common knowledge, but Luc does have a very nice roll in order to play a more passive game in hopes to increase whiffs from the opponent and maybe punish with an Aurasphere or something.

Or out of shield, most you'll be doing is jabs or dair oos or something but there are those few moves where you can get legit forcepalms or even dsmashes off on them.


Your question was kind of confusing but I hope i answered it. The general goal here is to discuss every option you might have in a (rather common) scenario. I don't expect anyone to want to talk about what to do if that GaW is slightly above you in a 42 degree angle.

Just because it's easy to test, here's the point at which Lucci's attacks will hit Snake out of Cypher (assuming they're fresh)

Bair (initial hit): 0%
Nair (initial hit): 0%
Fully charged Aura Sphere: 0%
Uair: 21%
Bair (lingering hit): 35%
Dair: 53%
Baby Aura Sphere: 63%
Nair (lingering hit): 76%
Fair: lol

I'll try to test punishing stuff some time tonight and get the ball rolling.

Uhhhh,
why are there two falcos? (aka typo)

if you shield snake's ftilt you can grab him(if yur close enough) before the second hit comes out.

dair OOS seems to be working very well for me these days

Oo, this looks like fun =D. Ill come back and help out in a bit with it ^_^

On DK's "invincible upB" glitch, I suggest either edgehogging him so that he won't get it from ledgehopping, and usually my best bet if he does get it is to shield it and then punish it with grab, fsmash, or AS since it has pretty nasty end lag.

Bump for a thread that is too useful to die so soon.
also for snake's jab, usually if you get hit by the first hit while in the air, prepare for ftilt. If you get hit with it on the ground and he tries to do the full thing (which I don't think snake's do much anymore), DI downward so you can shield/spotdodge the last hits then retaliate with the third hit's bad lag.
That generally speaking if the snake uses all three jab hits, which they don't usually.

Also, for DK fsmash, you can grab after PS, but most importantly, if for some reason you miss the PS, never fear! While DK may have a bigger hitbox for his fsmash than yours (I don't know for sure) he has more cooldown lag, and his hurtbox gets way extended (notice how his far his face sticks out). With the ending lag on this move, you can pretty much use your own fsmash as retaliation regardless of where you were when the fsmash hit your shield, because his fsmash hurtbox is so close.

I will try to do snake in a bit actually. Its time to get this rolling.

Well, if he's thrown both grenades already, you can for sure throw back without fear of being grenade-stripped (when he makes you drop it by shield dropping his second grenade).
You can also attempt to DT it (not highly suggested, but I've seen decent lucarios expiriment with this and does work at times).
If you suspect he's gonna shield drop a grenade in anticipation of an attack, that's usually a cue to do a quick throw, and hopefully try to string to get him offstage, and thus out of his stronghold.

Also! Falco's Phantasm has 3 instances where he's most vulnerable. 1. the Beginning which has considerable lag. 2 the middle, this is where He can be attacked by any move regardless of priority. and 3 the last part. where the ending lag begins. after the middle hurtbox there is some invincibility frames where its useless to attack him. This means he can technically blow up snake's grenade without being hurt himself if spaced correctly. The middle hurtbox can be seen as the time where the first half of phantasm is over and the next boost starts.

Ok, Since I am actually look at this now, this looks like it needs to be compressed. lol. but anyway ill update with this.

This will consist of the top 3 best punishers in order. (When its done anyway)

Snakes Moves/ Lucario Punish

Snake

Jab
Ftilt
Utilt
Dtilt
Fsmash
Usmash
Dsmash
UpB - Bair, AS, Uair.
DownB
SideB
Dair
Uair
Fair
Bair

Anyway, You get what im talking about with the format, I will try to finish this in the morning. If nessesary I will repost it.

against Gdubs I usually punish key with upair, although its risky when at high percents... It seems to work as the key is just coming out, but if you do it too late (once he has the key fully out) he will hit you. I have also seen this move trade hits. I also punish key with upsmash, but you have to read it and they can't be expecting it because if they are good and you are predictable they will punish you for this.

Bair can be punished by smash DI up and towards GW (correct me if there is a better direction), followed by a dair.

I also like to punish arial approaches by jumping away and shooting AS.


Don't forget that if you grab him out of upb he won't get it back (like snake)

Nair is probably the hardest move for me to deal with, since it beats dair in a lot of situations (i am still not really sure what decides who wins on this one, it may require lucario to be spaced just right--seems like further above is better)

if snake is planting a fully charged up mine you can shoot him with an aura sphere to mess him up

FoxMaster1 said:

if snake is planting a fully charged up mine you can shoot him with an aura sphere to mess him up

Click to expand...

lolz

10char

Bump...
and no comment @ the "mine tip".

phi1ny3 said:

Bump...
and no comment @ the "mine tip".

Click to expand...

Don't worry about it. This thread is next. Trust me on that.

Also, mortar slide is pretty obvious, AS, ftilt, fsmash, I think even jab can nab snake out of it, no shielding needed. It's got like lol priority (too bad it isn't ganon/CF sideB in priority).

Yep jab stops mortar sliding. fsmash seemed to slow, but I was definitely not positioned well enough or pulled it out fast enough to stop Snake.

Utilt clashes with Snake's ftilt as well.

Oh yeah, I remember a vid someone had where the lucario and snake were having a clank war with ftilt vs. utilt, the lucario barely won after like 8 clashes XD

Yeah I know, it was so epic. I was like, "Who is this Lucario?"

can someone post that vid?

This thread will be closed. I am going to start a new one.

Mod Close Thread Plox =]

Aurasmash14 said:

can someone post that vid?

Click to expand...

Of Lucario's utilt clashing with Snake's ftilt?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT_T4D1Oh5Q