Matchup rediscussion: Pikachu

#HBC | ZoZo · Jun 18, 2009

The second in the series, here we discuss the new pikachu matchup since alot has changed since last time.

Can't we just be friends?

Stealth Raptor · Jun 18, 2009

no. *cgs 0-120*

lol jk, ill give an assesment soon, subscribing for now. i like to get a feel for what others say before i make an assesment

Hawks go Caw · Jun 18, 2009

Stealth Raptor said:
no. *cgs 0-120*

lol jk, ill give an assesment soon, subscribing for now. i like to get a feel for what others say before i make an assesment

Standing CG's to forced get up to whatever follow is pretty cool too.

KuroKitt10 · Jun 18, 2009

CG is **** if the Pika can get it off, and knows how to do it. Your number one operative is to not let them get it. Seriously, it's a nasty enough chain grab, I might almost suggest letting yourself get up to 30% on purpose just to screw it up. I would highly suggest all Falco players take some time to drop by the Pika boards and read up about the chain grab, and maybe even try and get it off on a computer. The more you know about how it works, the better you'll be able to counter it.

Also of note, Falco's reflector is an AMAZING counter to thunder. If you can bait a thunder, reflect it, the FF into something nice, you're in a great spot. Additionally, any Pikachu who likes to edgegaurd with Thunder can be punished hard. Reflect that as they're floating over the edge, then Illusion back onto the stage. Suddenly you've gone from being off the edge, to being the one doing the edge guarding. Reflector also causes serious trouble for TJolt spamming. Know how to use the Reflector, and you'll make any Pika's life that much harder.

With the Reflector and your Illusion, I personally think Falco has a much better camp game against Pikachu than Pikachu does against Falco - Force the pikachu to approach, and then punish.

That's my two jolts.
Myeow!

Lord Chair · Jun 18, 2009

Kitt22 said:
Also of note, Falco's reflector is an AMAZING counter to thunder. If you can bait a thunder, reflect it, the FF into something nice, you're in a great spot. Additionally, any Pikachu who likes to edgegaurd with Thunder can be punished hard. Reflect that as they're floating over the edge, then Illusion back onto the stage.

Only when the thunder is used in the fashion that causes thunder2.

A thunder edgeguard means that doesn't happen.

Jon? · Jun 18, 2009

I don't know this matchup as well as other players do. There aren't many Pikachu mains in my area.

This is what I do suggest to do against this electric rodent:
-Pika's CG is crazy, it's hard to do but if they know what they are doing it's basically a free 70%+ dmg. From my understanding, I think you just play camp wars during the initial moments of the match just to make sure you don't get grabbed at 20% or below.
-Thunder spam gets a lot of characters but Pikachu mains have to be careful with it around spacies. Just bait and reflect.
-QACing may not be too much of an issue but it catches me off guard sometimes. I think you just predict the QAC and powershield or possibly spot dodge if you are fast enough.

Lord Chair · Jun 18, 2009

Jon? said:
...moments of the match just to make sure you don't get grabbed at 20% or below.

People should know this before they even attempt the match-up:

Pikachu's dthrow chaingrab starts at 20% or UP, you are never save to be grabbed at low percentages, unless you know the Pikachu player is not capable of getting you higher than 20% through a forward throw chaingrab.

TL;DR Don't get grabbed, at all. Ever. You should know this already and if you don't you will know now.

Denzi · Jun 18, 2009

Lord Chair said:
People should know this before they even attempt the match-up:

Pikachu's dthrow chaingrab starts at 20% or UP, you are never save to be grabbed at low percentages, unless you know the Pikachu player is not capable of getting you higher than 20% through a forward throw chaingrab.

TL;DR Don't get grabbed, at all. Ever. You should know this already and if you don't you will know now.

Yeah, I thought that was the case, but I didn't want to say anything because iwasn't 100% sure.

Basically we have to stick to staying on the stage for as long as possible after the CG and camp like crazy before it, taking advantage of any mistakes the Pika makes. Once Pika's damage is higher, we want to focus on controlling the center, as it helps us live longer and forces Pika to stay on guard.

Play extremely safe, any mistake could cost you a stock.

#HBC | ZoZo · Jun 18, 2009

It's hard to run away though because of QAC

Lord Chair · Jun 18, 2009

Xonar said:
It's hard to run away though because of QAC

This.

Don't think you can really control the center like you would with most other characters.

Also, controlling the center should be part of your general stage control game.

#HBC | ZoZo · Jun 18, 2009

Lord Chair said:
This.

Don't think you can really control the center like you would with most other characters.

Also, controlling the center should be part of your general stage control game.

In fact, like I just told you, Falco uses lasers to control the whole stage from a distance.

Notra · Jun 18, 2009

i find pikas very difficult. its almost like icees. but we can phantasm. my main problem w/ pikas is how hard they can be to hit. if the pika has a strategy learn it quick. cause its hard enough to kill w// falco. but a char like pika just makes it worse.

Denzi · Jun 18, 2009

Lord Chair said:
Don't think you can really control the center like you would with most other characters.

Also, controlling the center should be part of your general stage control game.

I know both of these things, I'm just saying that it's the best shot that we have at winning.

However, before 20%, Falco should probably stick to the edges so that the stage ends the CG before Pika can get the Dthrow.

And you have QAC, but our IAP competes with that.

#HBC | ZoZo · Jun 18, 2009

Denzi said:
I know both of these things, I'm just saying that it's the best shot that we have at winning.

However, before 20%, Falco should probably stick to the edges so that the stage ends the CG before Pika can get the Dthrow.

And you have QAC, but our IAP competes with that.

IAP competes with QAC? No, QAC is by far superior.

If only for the fact pikachu can use it to dodge all lasers and be in your face faster then you can say 'HANDS OF MY BREAD'

Teran · Jun 18, 2009

Just camp and don't get grabbed.
All the CG has done is increase the level of punishment Pika can dish out for sloppy play.

Denzi · Jun 18, 2009

Xonar said:
IAP competes with QAC? No, QAC is by far superior.

If only for the fact pikachu can use it to dodge all lasers and be in your face faster then you can say 'HANDS OF MY BREAD'

I was talking in terms of distance and speed.

Lord Chair · Jun 18, 2009

Denzi said:
I was talking in terms of distance and speed.

QaC is still beter, there is a reason you see Pikachus flashing all over the place.

I don't see any Falcos flashing all over the place.

Just my 5 cents.

Hawks go Caw · Jun 18, 2009

I haven't played a pika main that could do the CG yet. It doesn't even seem hard. Step it up Pikachu's.

IAP isn't meant to be used the same way QAC is used. Saying one is far superior than the other is like comparing cars and trucks.

Anyway, Falco has a CG on Pika too that can lead into standing CG that can lead up to other stuff. Honestly, I haven't explored the follow up options out of standing CG too much, but LL is garaunteed or at least very likely on certain stages.

Afer 20%, Pika's CG doesn't do as much damage. Pikachu really isn't all that tough.

BleachigoZX · Jun 18, 2009

On top of that, Bair beats up QAC's.
(Pikachu is a very flexible character, but Falco is much more suited for this fight.)

But I'm pretty sure some of Pika's aerials beat out Phantasm.
(Falco is obviously aiming to out camp Pika, so Pika will attempt to weave its way in. Falco should be able to take care of this, he out ranges Pikachu on ground.)

Notra · Jun 18, 2009

also when comparing iap and qac. most ppl over look how much harder falcos is. to use iap correctly u need to master phantasm canceling. which is difficult. i still havent gotten to shortest one down yet. as opposed to pikas only having to press down or jump to cancel. iap cancel is much more difficult. but over all once mastered id say the mind games from it surpass qac.

BleachigoZX · Jun 18, 2009

No.

QAC surpasses IAP. It is that much Flexible.

Phantasm mind games are nice and all, but Pikachu's options are a lot more open than Falco's when comparing those two moves.

Stealth Raptor · Jun 18, 2009

um the cgs are incredibly easy, i havent met a pika in a while that still struggled with them. also as anther showed us skull bash wrecks your illusion, be careful about using it to recover, as it beats your illusion no matter how it is timed.

Emperor Time · Jun 18, 2009

Regrab during the last 10 frames..shouldn't be that hard

Yet, I can't do it...

Stealth Raptor · Jun 18, 2009

you just have to tap it real fast, like press and release really fast. imaging you are trying to short hop with fox in melee using the z button, around the time that pikachu is settling back down. with practice it becomes easy.

AvoiD · Jun 19, 2009

Hawks, ESAM, I think that's his name plays Pika at AiB, and pretty sure he's mastered the CG's. Hit him up and get in a few friendlies, I'll try to and get some of the matches recorded.

imo, The matchup is 60-40 Pika, or 50-50. Don't get grabbed best represents why I think it could be even, or in Pika's favor.

F-Throw to 20% + D-throw to 70% + Smash/Aerial to Edgeguard is all Pika needs. ;[

EDIT: And I think all Pika's aerials go through the Phantasm. Yup, QaC > Phantasm.

Our camping game ***** Pika's though. Laser + Reflector beats Neutral B spam, and Thunder. Chaingrabbing is a major factor to win to, and with the extra few grabs at the end of the stage, a follow up such as U-Smash/F-Smash could possibly help the matchup be 50-50 if we could implement it into our game.

Marcbri · Jun 19, 2009

I see it 6-4 for Pika, no more. Now they got a **** chaingrab but it has 2 main weakness:
1-range: Pikachu's grab range is garbage, jab is your friend if you see him trying to grab you at 0%.
2-he needs to start at specific %. sure, he can get that 21% to start with a Fthrow chaingrab, but if you don't get grabbed in a place where he can perform it he will hard a harder time getting you in that specific %.

That's about the chaingrab,now in general some important facts.
-both characters have trouble killing, very similar ways of killing, the player who spaces better will get the kills , the match-up is pretty even in this area.
-Falco wins the camping game, lasers aren't much of a problem for pika, but Shine helps a lot because the thunderjolt can be really annoying sometimes.
-Falco still has his old chaingrab, that racks up a lot of damage , and that's incredibly good considering Pika is a light weight.
-Falco outrange pika in the air with his Bair
-Pika can gimp us and we aren't likely to gimp him
-outside of the chaingrab pika has some low % combos that rack some good damage and put Falco in a bad position

about the stages, I rather go to a stage with platforms instead of the classic FD, since grabs are easiers there and pika has more stage control. Also avoid Delfino vs pika, I really dislike fighting falco vs pika there.

well, as I said: 6-4 for pika, but just because of the chaingrab, if we can avoid it enough we should get an even match-up

#HBC | ZoZo · Jun 19, 2009

Pikachu can still get some bad gimps off if he gets a fthrow on you at the edge, so theres no place to be safe from fthrows/dthrows.

I'd say start with getting hit with thunderjolts, if you're above 25% you should have less damage from the chaingrab allowing you to play less gay.

Lord Chair · Jun 19, 2009

Marcbri said:
I see it 6-4 for Pika, no more. Now they got a **** chaingrab but it has 2 main weakness:
1-range: Pikachu's grab range is garbage, jab is your friend if you see him trying to grab you at 0%.
Pikachu's grab range isn't too bad, and don't expect any decent Pika to fish for grabs right at 0%

2-he needs to start at specific %. sure, he can get that 21% to start with a Fthrow chaingrab, but if you don't get grabbed in a place where he can perform it he will hard a harder time getting you in that specific %.
No.

-Falco wins the camping game, lasers aren't much of a problem for pika, but Shine helps a lot because the thunderjolt can be really annoying sometimes.
Shine is great, but get it baited and you're toast.

Also avoid Delfino vs pika, I really dislike fighting falco vs pika there.
Any reason as to, er, why?

35-65, this matchup was 40-60 before the CG, you can't expect it to be the same.

KayLo! · Jun 19, 2009

Marcbri said:
2-he needs to start at specific %. sure, he can get that 21% to start with a Fthrow chaingrab, but if you don't get grabbed in a place where he can perform it he will hard a harder time getting you in that specific %.

That's not entirely true, actually. It works at other percentages, but the later we start the CG, the earlier it will end. We don't have to get you to exactly 21%, lol. The fthrow CG just conveniently links to the dthrow one.

Also:

We can steal your bread.

#HBC | ZoZo · Jun 19, 2009

KayLo! said:
That's not entirely true, actually. It works at other percentages, but the later we start the CG, the earlier it will end. We don't have to get you to exactly 21%, lol. The fthrow CG just conveniently links to the dthrow one.

Also:

We can steal your bread.

I knew the pikachu in the opening picture was planning something!

Upon closer inspection, I saw it... the truth!

Xonar assures you this definitely isn't shopped.

M@v · Jun 19, 2009

Hey thats right Falco gets owned by pika CG like fox does now. Welcome to the club guys

. Fox and falco have the same strat for this matchup; run and shoot

KayLo! · Jun 20, 2009

Pgh-M@v-Pgh said:
Fox and falco have the same strat for this matchup; run and shoot

Except.... if we have the lead and you try to camp, we can just duck. =X

Marcbri · Jun 20, 2009

KayLo! said:
That's not entirely true, actually. It works at other percentages, but the later we start the CG, the earlier it will end. We don't have to get you to exactly 21%, lol. The fthrow CG just conveniently links to the dthrow one.

Also:

We can steal your bread.

I know lol, but we mainly want to avoid the 21% one, After that Pika doesn't have an easy way to get the other exact % ( like Fthrow-> Fthrow -> pummel is). I play often the best Pika in my country, I'm really used to this Match-up xD

AvoiD · Jun 20, 2009

65-35 or 70-30 Pika.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238293

Wow.

Denzi · Jun 21, 2009

KuroZero said:
65-35 or 70-30 Pika.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238293

Wow.

I'm going to go cry now. Isn't there a chance they can do that straight out of a Dthrow? Because that'd be scary.

AvoiD · Jun 21, 2009

I'm pretty sure that's how most plan on settin' it up . . <.<

Spacing and Chaingrab is the only way to win, baha.

Any opinions of the 65-35 Pika's favor? Or 70-30, whatever majority wins.

Hawks go Caw · Jun 21, 2009

I'm still not sure about the foot stool thing. moar testing. Like DI'ing down and towards or up and towards or something.

Sph34r · Jun 21, 2009

No, honestly, that's ********.

Falco had his 0-~50 CG on Pikachu for a long time, and as revenge, Pikachu gets not only his CG on Falco, but a more damaging one. Alright, that's fair. Having a **** matchup (besides MK) is tolerable, especially for Falco, who's a good character anyway.

But having a 27%-death combo eliminates any excuse for skill Pikachu needs to exercise in this matchup, along with any fun. That, combined with the fact that Pikachu is also a good character anyway breaks the matchup (but he can do this on everyone, right? Therefore the game). This needs to get tourney banned if it's indeed inescapable.

/rant

The Truth! · Jun 21, 2009

Just for everyones information, Pikachu has a 0 to 60 fthrow CG on falco, and a 20 to 100 Dthrow CG which can be led into with two fthrows from 0%. A good rule of thumb for how long itll last is by adding and subtracting 10%. If you get grabbed at 30 itll do about 90, 40 to about 80, etc. Its not exactly right but its close. Also, that last percent includes a regrab, so at 100% you are in pikas hands, and I believe he can do one last dthrow and then a usmash on falco which adds about another 20%. Its not a 0 death, but following the usmash it could lead to a well placed QAC to thunder which I would recommend avoiding rather then trying to shine. Another thing about the CGs is that if you are killed soon after the CG the diminshed dthrow wont be able to chaingrab unless its refreshed, so smart pikas will probably try to refresh it before you hit 20%. As far as getting grabbed, pika has a few moves which can lead into them. Fair is popular though easy to avoid, utilt and uair can lead to grabs, so can dtilt and dair if the opponent isnt wary. Of course pikas will use their speed to go in for one, he's more or less as fast as MK to give you an idea so he can punish attack lag with a grab pretty easily.

Regarding other stuff, pika can duck under the lazers and shine. Pika is probably better at killing. He has nair, usmash and utilt (both can lead to thunder); less reliable are fsmash if youre not careful or fall into a bad situation, dair off stage and at high percents, and ftilt also at high percents, and god forbid you get hit by it but thunder2. Falco is definitely better at camping, although niether can camp the other very well. Regarding the illusion, I believe most aerials can go through it including nair. Some pikas might use skull bash. I like dair since it has a long attack animation, is powerful, and will cover huge amounts of the delay in time/distance. Its probably incredibly even without the chaingrab.

#HBC | ZoZo · Jun 26, 2009

I'm doing to dub this matchup 65-35, and thereby close this matchup thread.

If there's massive objection it'll be reconsidered.

Matchup rediscussion: Pikachu

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