Forward Smash / Bair / UpTilt / Down Smash KO Percentages

So they are finally done. It's very useful to know when Samus' best moves can KO an opponent because then we'll be careful to not stale the move or focus on a particular move for an opponent.

In this topic we have 3 moves that aren't used as much as Plasma Shot and Dtilt, but surprisingly kill VERY early. It's strange, we consider Dtilt Samus' best KO move and the numbers prove otherwise. I think it's because players aren't as prepared to DI to the left/right and don't consider how fast the move is.

Method of Testing
+ Done in Training Mode
+ Each character stands in the middle of the stage
+ Computer set to CONTROL (so absolutely NO DI is involved).
+ For the Utilt data, CPU was set to control, I would just jump at the center of the stage.
+ the percentages you are about to see are the absolutle LOWEST percentage the opponent was at when they were KOed at the side of the screen.

Things to consider
+ Since there was no DI involved, it may take on average +10% more to KO your opponent.
+ Testing was done on the center of the stage of FD. Most of the time you'll be hitting your opponent closer to the edge or on a stage with a lower ceiling.
+ Forward smash tilted up has significantly more knockback than a regular forward smash. A forward smash tilted UP KOs as early as bair and plasma shot just with +2% more and kills at -10% of a regular fsmash(if bair or plasma at 103%, fsmash tilted up KOs at 105%). This is AWESOME.
+ Forward smash tilted down has significantly less knockback than a regular forward smash, and does not start killing until +10% more than a regular fsmash.
+ This just means we have to find more ways to set up sweet-spotted bairs and tilt our forward smashs UP.

So here are the numbers (Please give me suggestions on how you want the data arranged For simple viewing. I also have all the moves on a spreadsheet if that makes it easier):

BAIR
Jigglypuff - 96%
Squirtle - 98%
Fox - 98%
Game & Watch - 100%
Meta Knight - 101%
Kirby - 102%
Pikachu - 102%
Falco - 103%
Shiek - 103%
Zero Suit Samus - 103%
Olimar - 105%
Zelda - 107%
Marth - 108%
Peach - 110%
Diddy Kong - 111%
Toon Link - 111%
Lucas - 111%
Pit - 112%
Ness - 112%
Ice Climbers - 112%
Sonic - 112%
Luigi - 114%
Wolf - 114%
Mario - 115%
Ivysaur - 116%
Lucario - 117%
Captain Falcon - 117%
Link - 118%
Ike - 119%
Wario - 120%
Ganondorf - 120%
R.O.B. - 120%
Yoshi - 121%
Charizard - 122%
Samus - 122%
King Dedede - 123%
Snake - 124%
Donkey Kong - 126%
Bowser - 127%


Average KO % of Bair (Sweet spotted): 112%


Forward Smash (Titled Up %)
Jigglypuff - 106% (98%)*
Squirtle - 109% (99%)*
Fox - 109% (101%)
Game & Watch - 110% (102%)*
Meta Knight - 112% (103%)*
Kirby - 113% (104%)*
Pikachu - 113% (104%)
Falco - 114% (105%)
Shiek - 114% (126%)
Zero Suit Samus - 114% (105%)
Olimar - 116% (107%)*
Zelda - 118% (109%)
Marth - 119% (110%)
Peach - 121% (112%)
Diddy Kong - 122% (113%)
Toon Link - 122% (113%)
Ice Climbers - 123% (114%)
Lucas - 123% (113%)
Pit - 124% (114%)
Ness - 124% (114%)
Sonic - 124% (114%)
Luigi - 126% (117%)
Mario - 127% (117%)
Wolf - 127% (117%)
Ivysaur - 127% (118%)
Lucario - 128% (119%)
Captain Falcon - 129% (119%)
Link - 130% (120%)
Ike - 131% (121%)
Wario - 132% (122%)
Ganondorf - 133% (123%)
Yoshi - 133% (123%)
R.O.B. - 133% (123%)
Charizard - 134% (124%)
Samus - 134% (124%)
King Dedede - 136% (126%)
Snake - 137% (126%)
Donkey Kong - 139% (128%)
Bowser - 140% (129%)


Average KO% of Fsmash: 124%
Average KO% of Fsmash (Tilted Up): 114%
Average KO% of Fsmash (Tilted Down): 135%



Utilt
Zero Suit Samus - 102%
Jigglypuff - 109%
Squirtle - 111%
Fox - 111%
Falco - 111%
Game & Watch - 113%
Meta Knight - 114%
Kirby - 115%
Pikachu - 115%
Shiek - 116%
Olimar - 118%
Zelda - 120%
Marth - 122%
Diddy Kong - 123%
Peach - 124%
Toon Link - 125%
Lucas - 125%
Ice Climbers - 126%
Pit - 126%
Ness - 126%
Sonic - 126%
Wolf - 128%
Luigi - 129%
Mario - 130%
Ivysaur - 131%
Lucario - 131%
Captain Falcon - 131%
Link - 132%
Ike - 133%
Wario - 135%
Ganondorf - 135%
Yoshi - 135%
R.O.B. - 135%
Charizard - 137%
Samus - 137%
King Dedede - 138%
Snake - 139%
Donkey Kong - 141%
Bowser - 143%


Average KO% of Utilt: 126%


Down Smash
King Dedede - 179%
Snake - 172%
Donkey Kong - 168%
Captain Falcon - 164%
Ganondorf - 161%
Ike - 161%
Bowser - 160%
Link - 158%
Wolf - 155%
Charizard - 154%
Wario - 154%
Yoshi - 152%
R.O.B. - 150%
Samus - 149%
Ivysaur - 149%
Lucario - 146%
Pit - 146%
Sonic - 146%
Mario - 144%
Luigi - 143%
Ness - 143%
Marth - 143%
Diddy Kong - 142%
Lucas - 141%
Toon Link - 140%
Falco - 139%
Ice Climbers - 137%
Olimar - 134%
Pikachu - 134%
Peach - 133%
Zero Suit Samus - 133%
Zelda - 131%
Shiek - 131%
Fox - 129%
Kirby - 128%
Meta Knight - 128%
Game & Watch - 125%
Squirtle - 120%
Jigglypuff - 116%

Average KO% of Down Smash: 145%

Very useful data indeed. Good work.

If you could, look into d-smash as well. Usually it's easy to DI out of... but I've noticed that depending on which part of the hit-box you hit with, it'll sometimes send them straight up...

Or maybe it's just they accidentally DI up... XD

its nice to have the utilt data; a lot of times i will try to save that move over dtilt because it is so surprisingly powerful and has deceptive range. I'm kind of on the fence as to whether or not it is better or worse to try to save the dtilt, bc it is one of her better moves for just racking up damage and trying to fight characters that beat samus' mid-range game.

_Pope_ said:

its nice to have the utilt data; a lot of times i will try to save that move over dtilt because it is so surprisingly powerful and has deceptive range. I'm kind of on the fence as to whether or not it is better or worse to try to save the dtilt, bc it is one of her better moves for just racking up damage and trying to fight characters that beat samus' mid-range game.

Click to expand...

6 frames to come out for d-tilt. IMO more deceptive than u-tilt as far as range goes. I say use it whenever. Personally, stale moves doesn't seem that big of a deal to me for Samus. For my Sheik, it's need to know information for comboing... stale moves for killing? It only really becomes a problem if you start using those moves to rack up damage when they're close to killing percentage already. In other words, don't use d-tilt when they're in the 70-100 region since it won't kill them and it'll hit them too far away to follow-up with anything...

But then that's common sense and has nothing to do with stale moves...

Otherwise, dish out d-tilt whenever you find the chance. I don't even go for the jab->d-tilt as much as I simply d-tilt. The people I play know that they can shield after the jab so I'd rather get the 13% in. Although the occasional buffered combo input works to throw them off guard. ^^

when i say deceptive i mean that when my opponent is in the 100 + percents, hes generally looking out for chiefly the dtilt. I feel that opponents generally dont think of her utilt as a potential kill move, so they are not concentrating on it as much.

but that is a good rule of thumb to use, trying to save from about 80 to 100 percent and above until you go for the kill. it lets me maximize the use of one of her best moves while still saving for the end game.

I'm concerned about the up-tilt data. If I remember correctly, the angle you get sent at differs depending on when you get hit by it.

Like, it sends you fairly horizontal at the initial hitbox (leg extended above her head), but as it falls, the launch angle of the person hit gradually changes from horizontal to vertically DOWNWARDS, resulting in a hard recovery for most characters.

However, I'm not 100% on this. Is it too much trouble to ask testing of Up-tilt at different aerial heights?

Woah, nice list
Never knew Bair killed so early.

Werk! said:

I'm concerned about the up-tilt data. If I remember correctly, the angle you get sent at differs depending on when you get hit by it.

Like, it sends you fairly horizontal at the initial hitbox (leg extended above her head), but as it falls, the launch angle of the person hit gradually changes from horizontal to vertically DOWNWARDS, resulting in a hard recovery for most characters.

However, I'm not 100% on this. Is it too much trouble to ask testing of Up-tilt at different aerial heights?

Click to expand...

It kind of would be, this data WAS a pain in the butt to get until it started becoming like a math equation. I'll share more about that later.

I did notice that sometimes they fly in different trajectories, but they still died at the same percentage. I tried to get it when she hit them with the tip of the heel, with the thigh, while they were midway etc.... and they still died at the same percentage.

The only time they died earlier was at the start of their jump, and they did fly more horizontally. But the thing is they were set on CPU so some DI was involved. It's happened where the opponent will die earlier because the CPU DI's wrong, so I had to go back and do plasma shot data as well. I'll update that topic later today

Jupz said:

Woah, nice list
Never knew Bair killed so early.

Click to expand...

Remember, forward smash tilted up kills just as early!

Yea and what's really crazy is this is the KO percentages from the center of Final Destination. Most of the time we are on stages with much close hoizontal boundaries (battlefield, smashville, delfino etc) and we are definitely not going to be hitting them from the center of the stage. They will die when you're hitting them closer to the edges of the stage.

So let's find some bair setups!

Thank you Lance. You did great work here, When Xyro get's back he'll for sure add this to the Ultimate guide.
Basically she can't ill before 150% if the opponent DI's correctly.
this is the concerning point all of us samus mains have. we need kills et ups that work most of the time or we will stay bottom tier. Look at the facts, we can rack up redicules amounts of damage easy, in no time to be honest.

but we can't kill, it becomes harder to rack up damage as the percent gets higher as they fly farther making it impossible for us to combo them more. Thus we start to camp, which becomes more effective at higher percents as it'll knock them back farther and we can continue to camp. HOWEVER, here is where we get screwed. if we get close we start to get ***** as we generally have low damage if done correctly. Now, we NEED to get close do we not? all of our kill moves are Close combat, I just thought of something though

if we let up on our camping a bit and bait them in, it'd be safer then rushing in ourselves?? I think i'm going to impliment this into my strat. also i'll PM Xyro about the percents so when he gets back (yay we get time off from him xD) he'll add it to the databank

discuss my new strat?


EDIT: SORRY SORRY SORRY for taking away from your thread I feel bad now want me to take it out and make a new thread??

Nice work. Do you think that you could do DTilt kill percents too, please?

Edit: LOL nevermind, I just saw the other thread.

Cherry64 said:

Thank you Lance. You did great work here, When Xyro get's back he'll for sure add this to the Ultimate guide.
Basically she can't ill before 150% if the opponent DI's correctly.

Click to expand...

The bair, plasma shot and forward smash titlted up are strong enough to kill around 130%, center of final destination even with awesome DI.

Start bringing them near the edge of the stages and go crazy.

This is the concerning point all of us samus mains have. we need kills et ups that work most of the time or we will stay bottom tier. Look at the facts, we can rack up redicules amounts of damage easy, in no time to be honest.

but we can't kill, it becomes harder to rack up damage as the percent gets higher as they fly farther making it impossible for us to combo them more. Thus we start to camp, which becomes more effective at higher percents as it'll knock them back farther and we can continue to camp. HOWEVER, here is where we get screwed. if we get close we start to get ***** as we generally have low damage if done correctly. Now, we NEED to get close do we not? all of our kill moves are Close combat, I just thought of something though.

Click to expand...

You highlight a common problem I run into.

I rack up damage great, but when I come in for the kill that's when I'm in trouble. Even though all these moves kill early, Dtilt kills fastest and is safest for me, so I resort to that or plasma shot, which limits my options.

If we let up on our camping a bit and bait them in, it'd be safer then rushing in ourselves?? I think i'm going to impliment this into my strat. also i'll PM Xyro about the percents so when he gets back (yay we get time off from him xD) he'll add it to the databank

discuss my new strat?


EDIT: SORRY SORRY SORRY for taking away from your thread I feel bad now want me to take it out and make a new thread??

Click to expand...

Definitely might be good for a new topic, but

I'm definitely going to start tilting my forward smashes up though. It's just too good. I think we CAN kill earlier than 150%, just position Samus and the opponents more to the ledge from now on.

What these numbers also show is the best way to take down our opponents. Like I thought Dtilt was a universal awesome KO move for all opponents. But check out dtilt KO percentages on Squirtle, Dedede, Snake, Captain Falcon and then compare that to Bair and Forward Smash Tilted up! These are almost 50% differences!

Now I can tailor specific moves against them, and not worry about staling. Now I know to use dtilt for COMBOS on these characters rather than trying to KO them, because it's just not worth dtilting them at 150% when I can get out a bair or fsmash or plasma shot at 110% and finish it.

I was thinking homing missile cancel to F smash tilted up. when the yare appraoching it'ls the best way to kill them. however chincy it can be

You can't tilt f-smash up on smaller characters, plain and simple. You end up missing half the time. And if we want Samus to progress in the tier list, she needs set-ups against MK. It'll be the one you'll have to face in every good tournament. I don't even use Samus for the MK match-up honestly, I switch to Sheik.

It seems to me that you're collecting a bunch of data, Lance. ^^

Could you find the kill percentages for d-smash as well, including testing to see if hitting with different parts of the hitbox sends at different angles (such as that of u-tilt)?

I lost my match to K-9 yesterday. Beat his Pikachu with Samus, switched to Sheik and lost to his Pikachu... and then switched back to my Samus to lose to his Snake. But get this... lost to his Snake with me dying at 159% (by u-tilt of course) to his 209%. He DI'ed my d-tilt 3 times.... now that I look back on it, three extra frames and a d-smash probably would have been the better option to my stale d-tilt. Not to mention it has significant shield knockback if they mis-time the shield (more so than f-smash so that Snake can't get off the u-tilt if he shields too late.)

D-smash is a kill move, even if it can be DI'ed. Can you do the math for me pretty pretty please? XD

Dmash kills later than Dtilt, but it has very nice shield knockback, makes it harder for them to punish.

I put * next to some of the percentages (specifically forward smash tilted up) because it's just not wise to try and do this move, no matter how low it KOs the opponent. Mostly forward smash tilted up against small characters... it's just not worth it; you miss too much, or you never want to be that close to them on the ground. When I was testing, you have to practically be touching them to hit them with it

I just plasma shot snake for kills. And zair him off the stage for gimps. Anything else isn't worth it, I don't like to be close to him.

Cherry64 said:

Homing Missile Cancel to Fsmash

Click to expand...

I like the idea. Even a jab -> forward smash tilted up.

No-IDea said:

Seems like you're collecting a lot of data Lance

Click to expand...

Yea I'm just trying to find something for Samus. If getting this helps us figure out better ways to approach matchups and KO, then I'll do it.

I'm thinking of trying to do a range test, to see how far her moves reach.
EDIT: I'm kind of late. They have a great statistics topic. Samus' grab is long but the slowest in the game.
I'm finding that ftilt is a much better reply when you shield an opponents attack. Because fsmash usually misses by an inch, and any aerial is kind of slow and the opponent can shield back.

Ftilt reaches them if they hit your shield. Is fast, and has fairly small cooldown lag, because:

Xyro77 said:

F-TILT: Hits on frame 7. Ends at frame 32
D-TILT: Hits on frame 6. Ends at frame 48.
F-SMASH: Hits on frame 10. Ends at frame 52

Click to expand...

so what should i add to the USD?

I think that we need to find out exactly where the sweetspot for the bair is. A hitbox picture would be very useful.

Don't know why people wanted Down Smash, there's no reason to use it to KO, it takes too long.

I added it though. The way samus is facing is the first hit, then she sweeps her leg behind her. The first hit is the most powerful, and that's where I got the KO% from.

One redeeming factor is if the opponent tries to DI when being hit by it, it sends them absurdly off the screen and high up, making it somewhat easy to gimp them.

I don't think ive ever sweet spotted one of her Bairs, because it has crappy knockback lol.

There needs to be more threads like this on all character boards IMO.

It has insane knockback, what do you mean?

Good work.

B-air has good knockback. I've KO'd with it at about 70% off-stage. It's a fairly predictable move, though - I'm sure most would opt for d-air in that position.