Yoshi v. Link

Poltergust said:

Basically. I miss Link's up-B from Melee.

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So true.

It was so good.

Delta-cod said:

But if you DI Link's UpB properly, doesn't it take a lot longer to kill? I'm pretty sure that if you DI it right, it's kind of like Mario's bthrow. =/

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00000 said:

Utilt is one of the better Link KO moves. It comes out really fast and is usually unexpected, so oftentimes there is no DI and it kills ridiculously easy.
Uair is another of Link's KO moves that hasn't been mentioned. It's safe, and even if you air dodge it, it auto-cancels on the ground so it can be followed up immediately.
The second hit of Fair is also often unexpected and KOs beautifully. It's most consistently done by full hopping it to begin the Fair, followed by fast fall into the second hit.

There are many setups that can lead to the KO moves: bomb stool (into Dair or Jab Lock), jab (Into Dsmash, Fsmash, Spin Attack), bair (Into Utilt, Dsmash, Fsmash), dthrow (Into Uair), bomb drop (Into Dair, Fair), bomb dthrow (Into Footstool, Fair, Dair), zair (Into Fsmash), jab lock (Into anything, really), and dash attack (Into Uair).

Link is underrated, IMO.




If you DI any move correctly, it takes a lot longer to kill.

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Shiri said:

Without further ado, I present: Link and why he can SUCK ON MAH BAWLZ

I am going to start off by reminding everyone that I'm not very good at Yoshi. I think I know the character inside and out, but my skill using him is incredibly subpar. That being said, you should take whatever I'm about to say with as many grains of salt as you like; I think I'm pretty knowledgeable, but I am certainly not infallible. I am also pretty sure some, if not most, of you think that I am kinda crazy about certain things (liking the Sheik matchup in Melee, thinking Yoshi does as well against Meta Knight in Brawl as he did against Marth in Melee, liking the Brawl Pikachu matchup even better than the Melee Pikachu matchup, etc.) and my opinions on this matchup will probably not be any exception, but I feel it is important for me to share my views on it and you can decide from there what you would like to take from it. Oh, before I forget...this is long. Deal or don't read. tl;dr is for the weak.

I think this is a hard matchup. Certainly not the hardest for Yoshi (that goes to Mario, I think, still). I am going to probably start my analysis with Yoshi's more obvious advantages in this matchup and then compare them to Link's and see how the two characters interact with each other on the battlefield.

Yoshi has above average edgeguarding opportunities in this matchup. I think this alone turns the matchup from abysmal to winnable.

Yoshi has guaranteed KOs at the edge with grabs. This is what turns the matchup from winnable to bearable.

Yoshi, yet again, has a good combo reading in this matchup. Combined with the fact that Yoshi can pull out forward smashes in this matchup moreso than he can in most of his other matchups, forcing lots of damage over a relatively short amount of time isn't incredibly challenging.

Yoshi has a decent amount of projectile negation with neutral air and forward tilt. Jabs do almost nothing here, but getting camped isn't a terrible thing in this matchup if Yoshi can just stay on top of which projectiles are coming from where and know how to stop each one.

Anybody from almost any other character board reading advantages like these in a matchup would love to wonder why I'm still calling this a disadvantage for Yoshi. As anybody who plays Yoshi knows, things are never this simple. If they were, we'd have much better matchups across the board without question. Let's examine Link and how he works on paper, disregarding varying personal playstyles.

Link's number one advantage in this matchup, hands down, is range. Jabs, downsmash, forward tilt (you will hear me harp on this move many times--and for good reason), up air, and forward aerial are all incredibly useful and long (and these are just the abusable moves). While Yoshi has myriad options once he lands a hit, getting that first hit in is very very hard. Yoshi is hard pressed to find an opening in an intelligent Link that plays like Sheik--laglessly. If Link abuses his lagless ranged moves, he can really stay in place and make it extremely hard for Yoshi to get in.

Link's next advantage is very close in importance to his first; speed. Link and speed have never gone hand in hand in Smash, but Link can take advantage of Brawl's game engine with his very comfortable walking speed, as was pointed out earlier in this thread. Being able to walk into any grounded move, most of which are incredibly useful in this matchup), is a boon no Link player can deny. Considering falling speed, Link isn't bad in this department, either. It kinda sucks for his recovery offstage, but Link (always has and still) is known for his ability to adjust from his nominal freefall speed to incredibly speedy fastfalls. This makes his descent from Yoshi up aerials that failed to KO much trickier to intercept or disrupt with conventional techniques.

The final character advantage I'll be discussing in this matchup is one that I wish Yoshi had in this matchup, but just doesn't. Consistent power. Link has it. All of his moves. Powerful. Consistently. Yoshi does not have this. Yoshi has burst potential from up aerial and forward smash. Up smash and neutral air are Yoshi's only really consistently powerful moves. Everything else besides up smash and neutral air deteriorate too quickly to guarantee KOs. Link can tap on your shield all day with whatever he wants and still be able to hit Yoshi with weakened moves that are capable of KOs. Link is certainly no Snake (who can KO with every single A button move in his arsenal), but Link has plenty of power covering a wide range of moves and they all have decently consistent power, even as they degenerate.

I am now going to move onto how Link and Yoshi deal with other on the battlefield. This is what makes the core of any real matchup and where playstyles and decision-making come in to make or break a situation. We'll go over the three ranges and the four parts of the stage that every matchup deals with.

First, at long range, I'll admit that I don't know what really happens here. I can say, with some assurance, however, that Link's gale boomerang should see no use at this distance. Long range, again, is any distance longer than medium range (which I will cover shortly). Arrows are tricky, fast, and they smart, but they can be negated with enough reaction time. Bombs don't see use at super long ranges, but can see use for a little outside of medium range, and for good reason. Catching items is easier than ever in Smash history (sometimes even forcing unwanted catches), but if you're not good at catching bombs, Yoshi will want to either move or jab them away. Just be careful not to set them off. Eggs are decent at long range. Yoshi can arc and toss like a pro, but the Master Sword wants nothing to do with them. Powershielding is good for Link because of his shield stance and the ease of powershielding. If Link is on a platform, he can also use the Hylian Shield to negate eggs, but he still has to be wary of the explosions sometimes. If Yoshi insists on using eggs here, he should focus on the upper or lower corners of the shield (not body shots) in order to try for shield stabs with the explosions of the eggs. Yoshi can also try to force the explosions of eggs before they hit Link (if he doesn't have his shield up) instead of having the egg collide with him. This is quite an awkward tossing battle...Yoshi can egg toss slide away from arrows to land some interesting egg snipes if the stage is long enough, but Link can throw much faster than Yoshi, so things are quite up in the air, I think.

Watch out for sliding up smash. It's beautiful for closing distance, especially on smaller stages like Battlefield.

Medium range is Link's, no question. Medium range is that range just outside of both characters' abilities to hit each other. It is essentially a space where characters "set up shop" to try to establish defensive dominance and lead into offensive tactics via punishing mistakes or simple intimidation. Every medium range option Link has in just as fast as Yoshi's and has much more power. Link closes this space very well with short hop forward aerials, up tilts, reverse up tilts, sparingly used forward tilts, and jab swings make it very difficult for Yoshi to land closer egg tosses and grabs. The fact that intelligent closing of space with Link's moves can suffocate Yoshi's grab game is spectacular for Link, forcing Yoshi to do much more work than he'd like. Random forward smashes (first step) are good to keep Yoshi on his toes about blindly rushing in with a dash attack. Gale boomerang can see some use here against bad spotdodges and airdodges. The small vertical knockback presents nominal options for Link to take advantage of, usually leading to double forward air slaps or that nasty nasty down aerial. Yoshi's best weapon at this range for the matchup, back aerial, is up for some challenges to make itself as useful as it is otherwise. If Yoshi gets in, though, he should immediately start closing distance to make the absolute most of his situation.

Close range, no lie, Link is a ho. Link wants to use downsmash here liberally and one can expect lots of jabs and up tilts. Link shouldn't really be jumping here. Link gets by best with intelligent use of the quickest, most lagless moves he can use; most of those are ground moves. Link's close range tactics here are unique because of Yoshi's shield. When Yoshi puts his shield up, Link has a few options at his disposal, not to shift momentum to his favor, but to position Yoshi where he'd like for a range reset. If Link wants Yoshi back into medium range, he can down air, neutral air, or back air Yoshi's shield. If he wants to send Yoshi a little further, he can forward smash the shield with both hits to send Yoshi a ways away. That being said, Yoshi will want to try to stay out of shield and use low percent pseudo-CC to hit with jabs and down tilts to try to force openings for running back aerials and grabs or maybe even the rare dash attack. Forward tilt isn't very good here, I think, because the vertical knockback sets Link up for neutral and down air retaliation. If it's shielded at all, it's GG Yoshi. I believe Yoshi will want to focus more on horizontal taps and force Link to the edges of the stage as quickly as possible.

Okay, I am looking at this post and realizing how long it is, so I'm going to stop here and see what you all have to say in response before I come back and print the second half later this evening regarding the four areas of the stage and my final thoughts on the matchup. I hope this is all coherent and if you don't agree, please feel free to do so and let's talk about this matchup because I really don't think it's as close to neutral as it's been getting recently.

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Chaco said:

1. Yes he can.
2. I semi agree here. But Link can throw bombs while recovering and gale boomerang and such.
3. No. Just no. Never. I warrant no further response to that.

Never egg roll around the stage when you can beat out his dair with Uair come up under him and snag it.

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Chaco said:

1. It's percentage based.

3. It does, but you have to hit it right.

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