Match-Up Rediscussion #1! Wario

Wario​

Go ^_^

Good reaction time with DS, spacing with fairs and punishing with DB until you can grab release a tipper fsmash for the kill.

That's my general strat anyways.

warios really bait the ds, i dont think its safe to use at all in this match for the most part

Didn't know that Steel, good tip.

SO use DB to punish his mistakes, space your Fairs etc.

Grab release for kills and also for racking up some damage maybe? You can grab release tipper Utilt iirc so that can start some juggling for damage, although with Wario's aerial mobility he'll be able to get out of them easier than other characters.

almost never Challenge him on the ground keep yourself in the air and under him.. his up air is ridiculously good and also you are gonna have to keep an eye on the timer ... expect warios fsmash and try to counter it with a dash away..pivot grab or a dash away DB....try to use an array of grab releases from up air to neutral air ... etc....

Wario's not even worth trying to juggle. Between aerial mobility, biking, waft, etc. Hit em if they're stupid about coming down but don't expect to get more damage from a juggle from a good wario.

And fair enough steel. But not using it all seems like a waste. So minimal use just to keep the
on their toes? Or maybe save for a K.O. move.

Another note, retreating pivot grabs. I usually would say save em for your kills so they aren't expecting it as much.

Wario's ftilt angled upwards has more range than our fair, even though it is slower still something to keep in mind. Only time i would recommend using DS is when wario is dair'ing your shield and he's at a high enough % to cause reasonable knockback or if he whiffs a fsmash and is in kill range(lol)

Watch out for wario's grabs too. He has a nice grab range and his fthrow has good knockback and can kill at higher % when it's fresh. If he grabs you, you're offstage and if the wario is smart enough to gimp you properly, it's a stock gone. Wario will also be using bite to edgeguard you.

Jab ***** his fair approaches.

@fear: u dont necessarily have to save your grabs for the kill. Grab whenever possible. When he's landing pivot grab> grab release > nair/uair for damage and positioning. Throw to put him offstage and edgeguard.

-Upsmash kills at around %135-140 fresh. Earlier with bad DI.

-When at the edge a fresh ftilt will kill marth like at %110-120 especially if you don't see it coming.

-Since wario has so much mobility in the air, it's easy for them to air dodge past everything the Marth has, I find running on the floor looking at when he double jumps then lands to be somewhat effective to implement onto your mix up game with Fairs/Nairs/Upairs

-Upair is tricky because alot of warios have a hard time spacing around it, it hits behind you as well remember?

-Looking at where they land and pivot grab is a good way to actually land grabs on this mofo.

-When up a stock abuse the crap out of grab release-upsmash since it starts at %18 and gradually lowers

-You can pivot grab a wario out of his bike

-It's kinda obvious when a wario is trying to fart on you, as long as you keep on your toes and he doesn't land them on you then wario coming back shouldn't be too easy.

-There's nearly absolutely no reason to sit there and hold shield in this matchup because you're better off fending anything he has with your spacing. Except the fart. This also holds true because he likes to bite and grab a lot. Annoying.

-A lot of marths like to make their fairs obvious when they are landing, a wario can fsmash as you do so which can be crippling. Try to do it at tip range when the fat man is on the floor.

-I thought I found a good way to tipper the fsmash out of grab release by pivot backwards-fsmash but then realized its not consistent. Anyone have a good way of doing this? lol

-When wario is on the floor holding shield, you can't fair past them, they can upair you as soon as you try to go through.

-Pivot Neutral-B in this matchup is valuable and gets you out of those sticky situations.

-When recovering from under the stage some warios like to fart your Up-B...which is gay. Keep your eyes peeled! lol.

Uhhh that's all off the top of my head. And im still not amazing at this matchup but i learned cuz of fiction =)

Do NOT Shield too much against Wario. A lot of times Wario players will bait your shield by feigning an aerial approach, and bite you. Bite is an extremely good option because it pretty much renders your OoS options obsolete unless you catch him doing something like dairing your shield, which many times they'll move away.

Staying under him, like CK said, is also really good because it's the opposite of where you don't want to be, which is above Wario. Wario is insane at juggling/gimping Marth so even if you can't juggle him, try to keep on an even plane or under him.

Watch the timer. Even if you're like "WTF HE JUST **** ON ME" don't be so stunned that you can't take a quick look at the timer, because knowing when that next 2 mins is up will help you a lot.

If Wario dairs across your shield/FF it, it is, in fact a:



(Vote Admiral Ackbar '12)

He's going to do something after the dair and it will cover many of your options. Rolling away is one option, or jumping OoS, or if you're feeling bawlzy you can try to DS, but you might get punished. The 4 things you absolutely don't want to do are rolling behind, staying in your shield, dropping your shield(whether to do anything/just to drop it/trying to SG) and spotdodge. Bite beats many of these options and the others he can Fsmash. Keep in mind you should mix it up if he keeps doing this, though, because a good Wario can read you(i.e. chasing your roll, uairing you as you jump OoS)

If you get Wario off stage, harass him. Don't go above him, yet again and try and go for some dumb fancy spike off his bike, he can jump off the thing and punish your *** as well as make it back. You can bait him off his bike or just flatout hit him with something like a tipper bair. Keep in mind his recovery without the bike is HORRIBLE. If the bike is onstage, don't try and blow it up, try to keep him away from it. Gimping Wario without a bike is easier than gimping Ganon.

Oh and watch out for dthrow stuff. Some will fsmash, some will bite, some will do other things out of it, but try not to get predictable with what you do when he dthrows you, because like i said he has a lot of options in relation to what you can do.

Last thing, DON'T TRY AND DO NOTHING BUT GRAB! But keep in mind that you should be using grab to punish in this matchup more, especially at high percent or if your usmash is relatively fresh.

Don't get frustrated. His nair is too good and pseudo-combos into grab and fsmash. Basically, i have to get the lead then we both play a GAYme of run away.

Predict his empty short hop-airdodges with grabbing.

Once again, his nair is SUPER gay.

Reactionary stance:
Any misspaced nair or dair that has not started off within your shield should always get [boost] pivot grabbed. The things to note here are: Gravity (i.e. Wario's coming to the ground) and Wario's dash and ground game is exceptionally outclassed by Marth
In other words, anything that may be telegraphed by ourselves should only be done if Wario is on the verge of having to touch the ground first.

Pressure stance:
Marth shouldn't attempt to meet Wario in the air whilst Wario is coming to the ground. His nair, dair and even ff'd uair if you misspace is deadly -> unless you predict their aerial movement well.
Wario's weakness is having to TOUCH the ground (repeated).
Our ability to pressure comes from STOPPING Wario from getting into the air; as long as we're within ground range (i.e. short hop), we can cover Wario's reach as he attempts to jump quite well; we can punish him for trying to get into the air.

Resistance Stance:
Wario rising from a jump or at around your head height with another jump or similar options will have us struggling to avoid shield pressure that leads to his grabs, fsmashing, etc
We require ourselves to use our dash to reallocate ourselves a nice zone to avoid impeding pressure, where we can then turn the tides into pressure once we're out of Wario's "instant" I'M THERE WITH AN AERIAL ***** (Somewhere between 1 and a half or 2 swords length away).

Kill
Marth has a plethora of kill options through the grab release; and due to the pivot grab covers Wario reasonably well. As Wario forces himself into the air a lot; utilt and nair are very usable as well.
Wario relies on forcing us above him or off stage; he will go for the uair or he'll go for charging an fsmash to hit you as you 'come down' due to gravity. Learn to use db1 to stall your falling; it is definitely hard to outspace the fsmash if what's behind you is a ledge and what's infront of you is pain.
Also Wario has the gimping options, which are annoying; and the punishing of bad spacing with fsmash. Note: BAD SPACING.
Our gimping becomes a lot easier if we beat the bike. However to get the height required to at least meet Wario in the air, we should be doing rising db1 to give us more horizontal height; if we choose so. Wario having that much airtime, even if he is destined to fall, becomes too much of a task to hit him as he falls via a grounded move (like he can do to us).

Tada.

this match-up is gay for wario. i can still beat all of you ******s though LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

marth is gay

First off, expect this to last for 5 minutes at the least. This whole fight is about you both looking for one another's mistakes and openings. This is one of those match-ups you have to play VERY cheaply. The basis of the 60:40 match-up here is that you keep yourself in the air at almost all times. I've played a few very good Wario's and i know that they are addicted to D-air almost as much as we're addicted to F-air. First and foremost, don't ever try to counterattack it no matter how predictable they are because you will miss. You're safer doing a U-air to make them cower back.

Mainly, you want to be at just about Wario's arial level at all times to keep him from going in for an attack. But you won't win by just standing around. FOLLOW HIM back to the ground but watch your spacing. If you're on the ground, expect an F-throw or N-air. Use your natural spacing to stay out of his grab range while on the ground. Also important, never just stand around in your shield, you always want to be on the move in this match-up, keep him guessing.

I've also seen a lot of Marths forget to glide toss the bike wheels, but don't forget to watch out for Wario farting on the bike for a hitbox advantage.

Wario has a lot of damage rackers but an average gimp game. Don't use your second jump until you absolutely have to because Wario is waiting to F-air your as soon as you jump. Don't fall for stupid stuff like ledge hopping into his f-tilt. As for grab releasing, if you're playing a good Wario, you may get two of these in one game at the MOST (unless grab release is your main objective). By the way, pivot grab ***** Wario's landing. Wario spends 95% of this match in the air and his DI is so incredible he can avoid your grab range with ease.

Stages to ban: Norfair, Battlefield, Yoshi's Island.

Final Note: Be smart and watch the timer. Take note of when he uses a fart so you know when he can use the mini fart with huge knockback after 2 minutes. Don't get hitbox tricked by his f-smash on the bike, and don't get gimped by a fart either, it's highly embarrassing.

^No, no no no NO dont stay in the air, I played a good wario yesterday, and he kept getting in through my full jump Fairs because of his ridiculous aireal movement. try to stay close to the ground w/ short hop FF fairs, sh double fair he can get through easily.

Ban brinstar, He's ridiculous on this stage.

If you're on BF and get a grab release, but he lands on the platform, you can get a tipper u-tilt, and I think that's all you can get. ON SV if you get a grab, hes just gonna wait till the platform then button mash, and I don't think you can get anything, sadly.

Also, UP-b OOS is really, really risky, because of Wario's fart which can kill Marth at very low percents. Make sure you know when he has it, and when he doesnt.

And if you counter fully charged fart he takes 48% to the face

Well I thought D-air was the biggest problem against Wario, so it would kinda make sense to stay at his level in the air then just follow him back down with proper spacing. His F-air isn't really all that but I guess he could DI forward and catch you by surprise on the way back down.

D-air has a lot better setups so I'd rather catch a F-air to the face than get comboed after a D-air.

Oh yeah and keep the bike in one piece if you can for easier offstage gimps.

^divinefalchion = omega from aib?

Anyway you can DI out of dair, SDI down lol. I dunno if it's possible but some people think Wario can f-smash out of Marth's dancing blades cuz of super armour / sdi O_O

Lol yeah, it's me. SDI down you say? Ima have to try that next time I play Krystedez, and by the way I'm pretty positive he can f-smash out of the down ending of dancing blade if he DI's down.

No, i know abouit the down version, I mean the normal red O_O.

and yeah by SDI'ing down Wario is still in the dair, so you have time to punish

Never use the DB 4 down because everyone can SDI it and wario will just **** you, but if you dancing blade anything else at the proper speed (and spacing) he cant hurt you with Fsmash

Are we discussing these a lot slower then the last time because were feeling lazy, or because theres more to discuss?

it's definitely a slow pace i dunno why

anyway my two cents

Against Wario Marth shouldn't exactly be aggressive nor should he wait around and camp... however you still play gay back at him.

Run away with your sword and throw out some pivot grabs if you predict an approach. What I mean is you're still kind of approaching him but don't lean in, he can get inside your zoning too easily.

i have less to say about this match than i thought. its probably 55 45 or 60 40

Use your sword attack.

But seriously, this got like no discussion. Hope the other redicussions aren't this short. If they are there's no point in doing redicussions.

at least we got quality posts

ill give it another day

Wario's fsmash has super armor as it hits... like frame 7-10 or something; you should never be able to get DB'd out of it unless he avoids the 2nd strike (can happen, its why its a bad idea to use the forward version at higher percents... the up one has risks too).

Marth will clash with Wario's fsmash if he uses Jab or ftilt. We get punished using db because super armor > transcended priority (and people wonder why Wario does good against MK).

Wario has some really malleable aerial movement. Sometimes making him hard to target with you ranged moves. Combined with his d-air, u-air, and his bike he can easily rack up damage on most characters.

His bike is tangible. If he falls off, I would recommend not letting him near it again, and not picking it up.

more on the MU later

If wario wants to go somewhere you cant really stop him. Your best bet is giving him some damage as he tries to break/eat his bike.

Trying to shield Warios moves is almost always a worse idea than trying to actually beat them out. This sounds pretty obvious it's not actually easy to apply. If he approaches with dair don't shield but use utilt to beat it...I find reverse utilt -> pivot grab to be a nice gimmick to stop his approaches.

Also I think it's 55/45 for Marth since Wario can CP Marth to stupid stages like Rainbow Cruise or Brinstar.

Gheb how do CP's make any difference? >_>

Match ups are discussed with an even playing field.

Steel2nd said:

Gheb how do CP's make any difference? >_>

Match ups are discussed with an even playing field.

Click to expand...

You can't not keep in mind, though, the stages that a character can take you to. The ratios themselves should be determined on a playing field that's even. Matchups definitely change when he takes you gay places though D:

I think Wario wins drastically more against ANY character on Brinstar, which is why you should always ban it imo, and RC is just gay lol.

if Wario takes me to ****ing rainbow cruise im picking sheik, jesus

Lol @ "brawl" and "even playing field". For every fruity stage u ban, there is another hiding in the woodwork waiting to attack.

if wario tries to autocancel his dair into you, pull the mikehaze/pierce and tipper dair oos by sliding your finger from y to a down, it sets him up for the bair/uair trap perfectly at mid percents

in general i've had success against wario despite having zero matchup experience by always making sure you keep pressure on him but also making sure that are spacing outside his incredibly good options. i've watched TONS of wario videos though because fiction is one of my favorite players, so this might be just me. make sure you always understand his range in the air and the ground! i cannot stress this enough, there is a clear difference in his range in those two areas and knowing the difference is amazing and useful.

Oh I missed the discussion. Oh well.

Stay on the ground if you can. You are more mobile on the ground than in the air.

From Grab release, early percents do tipper Nair/Uair/Usmash.

Later on, get good at the timing and grab release tipper Fsmash.

if youre super nervous/not confident in your grab release tipper f-smash, your u-smash is stale from previous grab releases, do a grab release pivot u-tilt... tippers every time and sends at a weird angle... kills around 140 maybe 130 with bad DI (more likely with the weird trajectory)

JunkInTheTrunk said:

if youre super nervous/not confident in your grab release tipper f-smash, your u-smash is stale from previous grab releases, do a grab release pivot u-tilt... tippers every time and sends at a weird angle... kills around 140 maybe 130 with bad DI (more likely with the weird trajectory)

Click to expand...

I approve of this because Utilt is beastly.

what are the kill percents for the other 2?

Usmash, even when fresh, is like, 140%? On most stages with good DI, not sure exactly maybe a bit less than that.

Fsmash tipper kills super early when fresh, like 90%? Maybe 100%, maybe 80%. Haven't tested that really.

Also the reverse Utilt is pretty good, it won't kill very well if they predict it and DI the right way, although it kills sooner than a regular Utilt where you just DI towards Marth and live FOREVER lol.

Stutter step forward to reverse fsmash is alot easier for me to get the tipper fsmash and made my friend's wario cry when I got him at the edge <_< (he misplaced his bike jump for onto the stage instead of the ledge and I grabbed him because of it.... he was at 76 and he died instantly.. :D)

Are there any tricks to get the tipper fsmash or is it just rote memorization of the timing? I can only hit it once every 5 or 6 times, lol

The timing is a little weird, it just comes with practice.

I don't play many warios, but I was told that grab release running usmash is guaranteed.

thats all I got

Wario has at least 3 way to **** with Marth as he's trying to recover.

1) Fair pokes/nair - you'll see this one the most often, as it's the easiest to do.
2) Instant wipeout > bike throw > edgeguard - this will either gimp you if the bike starts bouncing and makes you fall a bit, as well as preventing you from doing side+b stalling, or do ****loads of damage if they throw it up at the edge and time their ledgegrab correctly.
3) Run-off pivot bite - pretty much a PX exclusive. Wario's bite will catch Marth out of his up b if it's facing the stage when you're trying to go towards it (possibly remedied by up bing towards him... and hope you both die instead of just you). Junk knows this one... as do a couple other people