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Yoshi v. Ness [Summary Updated: 8/17/2009]

Shiri

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:yoshi: This is the thread for discussion on the Yoshi v. Ness matchup.

Matchup Summary:

The following double post is Shiri approved.

Ness

Let’s break this down into sections.

Long Range: Yoshi wins. It’s mostly going to be intelligently placed eggs to pressure Ness into an approaching. Ness can reflect with the bat, but at long range Yoshi should have another egg out to take the reflected egg. All in all, Ness is forced to approach, whether it be by taking to the air or advancing while power shielding.

Mid Range: Here’s where it gets tricky. Ness can get PKF in at this range, which is what you don’t want to get hit by. You can’t attack Ness by the air, it doesn’t work. His Fair can beat any attack you aerial you throw at him. He can do rising aerials, SH two aerials, and do a bunch of tricks with his air movement. He can also use PKT for a mindgame at this range. Don’t get hit by PKT2, it can end a stock early. With good DI, you can survive it BARELY at 50% if you get hit by the strong part. It will end your life. You can cancel PKT by hitting the head of the bolt, or you can just hit Ness. Be wary, however, of getting tricked into going after Ness and getting PKT2’d in the face. A lot of mindgames are going on at midrange. Yoshi’s goal is to land a grab or some sort of hit as Ness lands. A Grab will lead into a guaranteed Usmash/uair on release, which is a good 20%, as well as putting Ness above you, which is an advantage to Yoshi.

Close Range: Yoshi wants to use a lot of jabs and quick attacks to get Ness out of his face. Pivot Grabs can work here, as well. Neither of the two characters have a particularly strong ground game, but I’d say that Yoshi’s is better than Ness’s. If Ness shields an attack, he can Nair OOS, which will knock you away. Ness has poor range on his tilts and jab, and Yoshi’s jab is by far better than most of Ness’s ground game. Neither character really wants to be at a neutral position at this range, and the only real time this range will come into play is when someone is going for a follow up after landing an aerial or grab.

Air Game: Ness ***** Yoshi in the air. He outranges and outprioritizes. The only time Yoshi really wants to take to the air is to do a SH Nair over a ground PKF, or to uair a falling Ness. Otherwise, stay grounded.

Ground Game: Yoshi wins the ground game. Ness has his jabs and tilts which have little range and priority. His dtilt can trip you and set you up for a smash. His utilt pops you into the air for a chase. His Up and Down Smashes each have their uses, and there are a lot of tricks with them. If you see a Ness charging his YoYo, wait for him to activate it and go in for the grab. Ness’s Fsmash packs a punch, and PKF can set you up for it. However, you can easily DI out of PKF and DJ away, removing the threat. Ness will use PKF to space you away so he can return to the air, since he doesn’t like being on the ground much.

Offstage Game: When you’re recovering as Yoshi, MAKE SURE TO RECOVER HIGH. Recovering low gives Ness an easy opportunity for a spike. Also, be VERY careful using eggs to recover at mid/low heights. Ness CAN spike you while you’re doing this, whether it be from coming above or doing a rising dair. If you’re going to ECE, do it EXTREMELY cautiously. On the ledge is NOT the place to be against Ness, he can and will punish you. Ness can use pretty much any aerial to kill you off stage, and can even fair wall you far back. A PKT bolt will knock you out of your DJ at around 110%, and the spike as low as 50%, probably lower. Make sure to air dodge properly so as to not get gimped.

Similarly, when you knock Ness off, he’s a lot more difficult to gimp than you’d expect. If you knock him high in the air, you’re better off pelting him with eggs, since he can aerial you on his way down. He can Fair you if you try to gimp him, which will beat any aerial you throw out. He can spike you as well, so be cautious. Nair can knock you back to the stage, and Bair can hit in front of Ness as well as sweet spot. In order to gimp Ness, you’re going to need to hit him not very high. You want to wait until he begins to run out of time to recover. Most of the time he won’t need to use PKT unless you hit him out again. If possible, hit him in between aerials or Egg him out of his DJ to force him to use PKT. When going to gimp PKT, use a nair or go for the spike, just make sure you don’t begin too late, or you will get PKT2’d and die at a low percent. If both characters are recovering correctly, very few gimps should occur.

Killing: Ness can kill with a good amount of moves. Uair, Nair, Sweetspotted Bair, Dair, Fsmash, PKT2, and Bthrow can all kill. PKT2 relies heavily on mindgames, but it can be shielded. Do note, however, that PKT2 does massive shield damage, so your shield needs to be in very good condition to take the hit. A Shattered Shield will most likely end in your death. A sweetspotted bair will be hard to land if Yoshi plays defensively. Uair shouldn’t happen often because you don’t WANT to be above Ness, and a Fast Falled Air Dodge, can take care of any threat of that. A lot of Ness’s KO moves need a set up or for you to screw up to get hit. Bthrow will kill at around 140% with good DI.

Yoshi has a much easier time killing Ness in this MU, as well as racking up damage. If Yoshi gets one grab in on Ness, assuming he doesn’t ground break it, it’s an easy 20%. If you get a GR > USmash on Ness while he’s at 0%, he can FF a Fair on you as you recover from End Lag. Past that percent, you can try for another grab on landing for another 20-ish percent. Ness can beat a Pivot Grab with a falling Fair, so stay to close to him as he’s falling if you want to regrab. Also, if Ness does a dair and retreats it, you can try and dash grab his landing, but odds are he’ll be too far away. If you see Ness doing a dair, you can Usmash or Uair him to keep him up. Mix it up depending on how the Ness is reacting to get in a lot of extra damage. When Ness is at kill percents, about 110-120, you can Grab Release, into an uair for the kill.

Stages: In general, platformed stages are better for Ness, while more open stages favor Yoshi.

For Neutrals, you’ll want to strike Yoshi’s Island. It’s too cramped and messes with your camp game too much, which is what you need to use to get the grabs in on Ness. Also, Ness can take advantage of the platform for SH Aerials, which will be VERY hard to get by due to the moving platform. You’ll also not want to play on Battlefield. While the platforms don’t prevent any of the release goodies, they give Ness more options to not get grabbed. Final Destination and Smashville are very good stages for Yoshi to play on against Ness.

Counterpicks: Pick any flat stage with little obstructions. Smashville/FD are good for this. Pictochat too if it’s allowed. The pokemon stages may also work, though some of the transformations will favor Ness.

Bans

Rainbow Cruise: The Ship doesn’t really have enough space for Yoshi to camp his way around Ness’s aerials. The Second Part is all aerial pretty much, and since Ness destroys Yoshi in the air, you’ll pretty much be getting beat here. The third part is probably the best part for Yoshi, but even then it’s not very good. Honestly, when I played here with a Ness main I’d been beating consistently, I got 3 stocked.

Halberd: If Rainbow Cruise isn’t legal, than Halberd should be your next ban. The platform allows Ness to shield the Grab Release follow ups, essentially taking away what makes this MU easier for Yoshi.

Ban: RC/Halberd

Preferred Neutrals: FD/SV

CP: FD/SV/Picto/Pokemon Stadiums

Summary of Summary: The match up is all about the two players. Yoshi will wreck Ness if Ness gets grabbed. However, Ness has good spacing tools and options to prevent himself from getting grabbed. The match up is even, with a slight (or greater) advantage either way depending on stage choice.

Fun Fact: Yoshi’s Dash Grab hops him over grounded PKF
 

Frown

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I would actually say Ness is superior in this matchup. The kid will mostly be in the air, like Yoshi, but Ness has a better set of aerial moves. His fair has great priority, dair WILL kill if off stage, and a fresh bair is an early horizontal killer. His uair is also powerful.
 

_clinton

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Ness' kill options happen to be larger in number and with some that are better than Yoshi's as well...Yoshi' grab release can lead into an Usmash...but that is only if the Ness player doesn't jump IIRC...

Also...Ness' uair is able to kill at lower % than your's...however, I guess they are evened out because of Yoshi living longer when it comes to % (I'm not so sure on this though...I'd have to check)

Gimping Ness depends on the Ness player really overall...because Ness does have tools to protect him and I always feel Ness will only be gimped if A. The game hates him, or B. they screw up...however, I feel you will out gimp him because the only way Ness will gimp you IMO is if you screw up...which seems like it is harder for you guys overall...

Yoshi's eggs are a plus...but do remember...Ness isn't lacking in the mobility department and has an average air speed...so even though you beat him on the air speed of course...do note it really isn't that hard to close the gap you may make...
 

Uffe

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I really have no say in this match up to be honest. I did fight some tough Yoshi's, though. Of course they seem so rare, so it's obviously my inexperience with you mains. Anyway, I thought I'd just come in here to point out that the Ness boards did discuss you guys before and apparently we have a slight advantage against Yoshi.
 

Chaco

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We can also Uair you out of Grab Release. Inescapable.
 

Delta-cod

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I have yet to play a Ness with Yoshi, but I do indeed play a bit of Ness.

Ness will be in the air a lot. Fair will probably be the most used aerial since it has good range and priority, as well as being Disjointed. Every other aerial is just part of Ness's body, meaning we can beat or tie it with any of our aerials. I don't think usmash will get through fair, however eggs should be able to go through the attack and hit Ness. ETS will be good for keeping your distance.

Bair has a hitbox in front of Ness and can sweetspot from there too. Dair has a spike hitbox and a different hitbox that sends the opponent horizontally, with a lot of knockback. Getting hit by dair is not something we should do during our recovery, since I'm sure both of them beat the armor early on. A sweetspotted bair may also beat the armor early. Ness's uair is a good killer but is slower and has less range. Nair is good for knocking people away, but it has some end lag to it.

He's pretty weak on the ground. His throws are good, but he's got a pretty small grab range. He'll usually follow up a dthrow with some aerial chasing. Fthrow has set knockback, uthrow gets some good knockback, and bthrow is a killer at around 120%. His jabs have small range, his tilts don't have much range. Fsmash is strong but has lag to it. Usmash and Dsmash have two hitboxes, one while charging and one while doing the tricks. His dash attack is disjointed and knocks you into the air, where Ness likes to be.

I don't think this MU is very hard. Egg through his fair, grab him upon landing. You don't want to be in front of him in the air, since fair beats all of our aerials. If he's above us, dair is the only move with range, which usmash should beat. Our bair should beat all his aerials but fair. We have a guaranteed Grab Release uair for the kill. If you get hit by PK Fire, DI away and up and DJ away so you don't get grabbed. Gimping Ness can be hard, depending on how far away you hit him. If you hit him horizontally, it's much easier to gimp him since he can't really play around with his height as much. If you happen to knock him out without his second jump, just follow him in the air and wait for the PKT, then DJ into it. Or spike. Doesn't really matter.

I'm not gonna put a ratio since I'm not good with them.


:027:
 

Poltergust

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Ness players use PK Flash?

I've played a lot with Shaky, and we go pretty even most of the time. He likes to use PK Thunder. A lot. So, I'll just comment on how to deal with it.

Let me just say that PK Thunder is annoying to deal with. Ness can easily direct it around and hit Yoshi with the tail, and it deals a nice amount of damage. Depending on the situation, it may be better to take the hit, cancel it, or avoid it completely. However, there are just so many circumstances that it'll be impossible to list them all, so it's up to the Yoshi player to decide the best course of action. Just remember that Ness' PK Thunder is fast and can actually chase Yoshi around if he is not quick enough.

Yoshi has to tools to deal with the head of PK Thunder, and it shouldn't knock him out of his armor until high percentages, so if Ness is using it to edge-guard you check your percentage and see if you can take the hit and punish Ness for it. But, if you can avoid it completely then you can easily punish Ness since he'll still be controlling it.

Dealing with PK Thunder requires a lot of reflex thinking. It basically depends on both players, so it is really complicated to deal with. :dizzy:

(By the way, PK Fire is pretty much useless in this match-up since Yoshi can just double-jump out of it. Heavy-armor frames are actually useful in this match-up)


:069:
 

~Firefly~

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Speaking of PK Thunder, PKT2 is definitely something to watch for. A good Ness can play some serious mindgames with this move, and if he catches you off guard, he can KO you at really low %s. If you don't position yourself properly while he's using PK Thunder, he can wrap around fairly quickly and use his PKT2 to punish hard. If you see him going for this and you're on the ground, shield. It's the only reliable way to defend against this, and PKT2 has enough ending lag that you won't likely get punished OoS. Depending on your positioning after you defend, you may be able to punish this yourself. If he uses PKT2 while you're airborne...I don't know. Air dodge and hope for the best? Don't even try to beat this out with anything, because you will lose.

:005:
 

Delta-cod

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Ness's PKT2 is easy to punish if you're on the ground. You can Pivot Grab it or Dash grab it or whatever kind of grab you'd like. It only hits once, so if you shield it, you can get out of your shield and punish with anything depending on how early the move hit your shield. You can even shield grab it.

PKT itself is mindgames. So avoiding it itself is up to the players.


:027:
 

TheVince

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Ness's PKT2 is easy to punish if you're on the ground. You can Pivot Grab it or Dash grab it or whatever kind of grab you'd like. It only hits once, so if you shield it, you can get out of your shield and punish with anything depending on how early the move hit your shield. You can even shield grab it.

PKT itself is mindgames. So avoiding it itself is up to the players.


:027:
Err.. PKT2 hits twice...

EDIT: Nevermind -_-
 

_clinton

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PK Flash's best use are edge guarding mind games...Ness' recovery time for the move is the fastest out of all of his special moves...but still...
Isn't Yoshi's 2nd jump on the same thing as Snake's Up special...just with the skill to take a better hit? Because I'm pretty sure things like Ness' Dair/PK Flash with ko power will rip through it...
 

~Firefly~

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If you want to rip through our double jump with Dair or PK Flash, you'll have to catch us off guard with it. If we're recovering, we should have no trouble predicting those moves, and our air dodge will carry us through fairly safely; unlike Snake's upB, air dodging doesn't cancel our momentum and make us fall. We will continue along the same trajectory as if we hadn't air dodged at all, and our air speed takes us really far during our invincibility frames. In theory, yes, those moves will break our heavy armour with relative ease, but you'll have to be creative to land them, or use them to bait the air dodge and punish with something else.

@ Uffe: Care to elaborate on what exactly is situational? If something simply isn't practical, it would be good to know. =3


:005:
 

Uffe

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Stuff like PK Flash against Yoshi or Ness' grab > d-throw > whatever aerial. It's not necessarily d-throw to an aerial. Anything can happen after that. Another thing would be in Delta's post. He mentioned just knocking Ness off the stage and then hovering over him when he doesn't have his second jump just so he can get gimped in attempts to return with PKT. I mean if that were the case, then everybody would do that all the time. Just simple things like that.

I do agree with Poltergust's post for the most part. I'm not sure how great his Yoshi is seeing I've never played his Yoshi. But I know Shaky has a good Ness. I'd actually like to see Shaky's take on this discussion. Anyway, as I said before, I don't fight enough Yoshi's to really determine who bests who.

However, according to the Ness boards, this was and still is 55:45, Ness' favor. And even if it is that, it really doesn't matter since it's only five numbers away. Of course Poltergust sees it as being even. Either way, it'd be pretty close. By the way, are there more Yoshi's or what? I don't see a lot.
 

Poltergust

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Actually, I kind of agree with the 55:45 ratio for Ness. Even though I said Shaky and I were even, I never said that the match-up itself is even. I think Ness has a slight upperhand here due to his pressuring game and amazing aerials, something that can be a bit difficult for Yoshi to deal with.

:069:
 

~Firefly~

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The Ness I've played (ColinJF) didn't really use PK Flash or Dthrow on me, so I don't really have any experience with those. However, the whole concept of gimping Ness effortlessly by jumping into PK Thunder does seem pretty useless to me. Not once have I come close to having the opportunity to accomplish this. It reminds me of the people who think Yoshi's recovery can reliably be wrecked by footstooling our double jump, when in reality, no decent Yoshi lets that happen. V.V

I do feel that Poltergust pretty much nailed the PK Thunder bit, as that basically matched the experiences I've had with the move. It can be really threatening when it's new to us and we don't know how to deal with it, but as we experience how you handle it more and more, we can predict where it's going to a certain extent and act accordingly.

The matchup does seem pretty close to even at this point, even though there aren't a lot of people on either side who are actually familiar with this matchup. Yoshis aren't exactly abundant, and I'm guessing that there's a fairly small portion of us that have experienced enough with this matchup to comment. It would be nice to get some input here from Ness mains that have fought Yoshi mains...has anybody posted anything on the Ness boards about this yet? o.0


:005:
 

Uffe

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See? That's what I'm talking about with the PK Flash thing. Of course there was a time I used PK Flash on a Yoshi and I still have the video of it as well. Anyway, some Ness' do use the d-throw. Either throw works, though. Some Ness mains use his b-throw early on, which is a bad choice, while others will use his f-throw, u-throw or d-throw.

As for the info, I wouldn't be surprised if I had some say in the Ness vs Yoshi discussion. The topic is most likely in the stickied match up discussion on the Ness boards. If it is, prepare for a long search. We've gone through quite a lot of characters, so if the Yoshi match up was discussed in that topic, it's probably buried deep somewhere in the middle. :S
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: Another reason I like individual threads. :3

**totally not gloating**

I was going to say something about Ness.

I forgot what it was.
 

VSC.D-Torr

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I've played Shaky as well. PK Thunder can be a huge pain if you don't know how to deal with it. Ness has better aerials than us, as said earlier.

55:45 Ness favor if you GR Uair

60:40 Ness favor if you don't GR Uair

65:35 Ness favor if you think PK Thunder sucks (You're gonna get ***** by it) LOL PK Thunder is too good
 

Delta-cod

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Nobody's exactly challenged my post, which is what I was hoping for. Uffe's kinda done it indirectly, but eh.

Part of what I was saying was situational. Knocking Ness off the edge and hovering over him. Yes, not many characters do it. And no, it's not always the best thing to do, neither is merely absorbing the PKT. However, it is something that can work. You have to recover eventually, and Ness's PKT2 by itself does not net that much distance, but the aerial movement after it does. If you're knocked far enough out that your DJ is not enough to make it back, granted you can make an attempt to fend us off, but if we stay out of range it's possible to do it. Not many characters do this because they do not have enough air speed nor a good enough recover, both of which Yoshi has. This is not the end all be all against Ness. It is not a guaranteed gimp. I'm merely putting it out there.

I was making a general statement about the dair > aerial. It's not the only thing that works, it was just what popped into my head at the moment. I just usually expect a chase after a throw.


:027:
 

MX778

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I've played Shaky as well. PK Thunder can be a huge pain if you don't know how to deal with it. Ness has better aerials than us, as said earlier.

55:45 Ness favor if you GR Uair

60:40 Ness favor if you don't GR Uair

65:35 Ness favor if you think PK Thunder sucks (You're gonna get ***** by it) LOL PK Thunder is too good
You should play my Ness. I main him also (I know I keep saying that with a few of these characters, but it's true. XD)
 

Delta-cod

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I'm willing to bet mine is better. ;o

But yeah. My post. Not responded to. I feel like Polter with the Zelda thread, almost. Except my post isn't as large. =D


:027:
 

MX778

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I'm willing to bet mine is better. ;o

But yeah. My post. Not responded to. I feel like Polter with the Zelda thread, almost. Except my post isn't as large. =D

:027:
Oh really? Lol. :p
I do main Ness, but I'm kind of putting him aside for awhile to train my Yoshi.
 

Eagleye893

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I'll just say one thing: the best of ness' don't get gimped... I rarely get gimped, but mostly it's because my finger slips and i move the pkt the wrong way and i kill myself, but thats a different story....

I've played one or two good yoshi players, .... I just hate yoshi though. Eggs are annoying, but bat solves that problem (somewhat). good aerials on yoshi's part as well, but the big ones are multi hitting and easily SDI'd, which allows for a quick nair, uair, etc to hit yoshi. never knew about the grab release to uair on us.... but i guess i sort of expected something. Yoshi's double jump is a pain with the super armor... i don't really know great ways to deal with it, but people will keep distance and pkfire/pkt(tail or head) you to get something on yoshi. ground game for you guys is questionable, meaning i don't know too much about it... i don't remember what i did to that one yoshi's ground game. fairly quick smashes, but a little bit of lag for us to at least get a usmash or some type of aerial off if we see it... I don't know what else.

MX778 does play ness, if you guys were wondering. i've seen him some places on AiB with ness stuff.
 

Delta-cod

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The biggest aerial is probably bair, which we'll usually cancel into the ground after 1-2 hits for a tilt or jab, so I'm not sure how legitimate a tactic SDI > aerial will be.

The bat doesn't really solve the egg problem since they can be fired off at a much faster rate then you can reflect. I'm not entirely sure how batted eggs work, though, so I could be wrong in my idea.

Yoshi's ground game usually relies on jab and tilts. Ftilt is probably the laggiest move there, but I don't do frame data and usually just eye ball it. Pivot Grabs and dash grabs are used rather than standing grab. Not quite sure what else to say about it.
 

EdreesesPieces

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I think this is a fairly even matchup. I went fairly even with ViceGrip's Ness nearly weeks after I picked up Yoshi, although I did practice GR to upsmash and GR to up air. It's really tough for Yoshi to get in sometimes, Ness has mad priority and range over Yoshi sometimes. But with Clever edgeguarding (Grab release to egg throw, he'll have to avoid it somehow, follow his avoidance of the egg and down air the location, then egg hog, ledge release to egg lay, to down air, keep him off the stage and worried about recovery) you can almost make up for it. I can see an ever so slight advantage for Ness, but I really think it's even.
 

Shaky

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I think the matchup can get as close as 55:45 (Ness' favor). If both players have similar skill, and the yoshi player has a good gimping game and knows his grab releases, the matchup is about 55:45. This matchup can tilt to 60:40 if the yoshi player doesn't use those techniques as well as if the Ness player employs a good edgeguard game (Dair can go through Egg cancel in the ledge, Yo-yo ledge spike is fairly easy to do, etc.).

If ness only uses PK Thunder for recovery the matchup is 0:100 Yoshi's favor.
 

Jiggy

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Seems Ness has more priority in the air (and all around?) than Ness, to me.

I've gotten the #$%^ combo'd out of me by good Ness's. Pretty hard match up. Gotta Bair and hope you get lucky I guess.
 

Delta-cod

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Ness most likely does have more priority in the air. A lot of Yoshi's aerials will either clash or get beat out by his. Fair will beat any aerials we try to use straight on, dair beats uair, I believe. Ness's bair, uair, and nair can all probably be beat, however.
 

nicalobe

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If you're gonna CG to up smash you have to be sure to not go too fast. If you try and smash too early you'll miss below Ness and leave yourself open.
 
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