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Yoshi v. Sheik
- Thread starter Shiri
- Start date
stealth3654
Smash Lord
You guys can nair out of our ftilt lock, so we can't really use that against you. Be very careful when recovering against us because Sheik is a gimping machine and needles can wreck your second jump.
Other than that, just play very smart. If you are too reckless or use laggy attacks, Sheik will put a good hurting on you guys.
Other than that, just play very smart. If you are too reckless or use laggy attacks, Sheik will put a good hurting on you guys.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
I've personally had a lot of trouble against Sheik in the past, but I think it's more of a personal problem. Nair out of ftilt lock? - 1 of my problems.
Anyways, I think we beat Sheik in the air. I'm not really sure on how good her aerial priority is, but I believe bair will beat most of Sheik's aerials but her bair on the sweetspot. Her uair is good if we have to land. She can't really outright kill us well, and it's pretty hard to gimp a Yoshi. Usmash can hit through the platforms on BF. I learned the hard way. >_>
Umm, I can't really think of much here. on the ground I think Sheik wins, but I also think our bair will beat out most of Sheik's ground game. Dsmash is annoying. I hate it.
Need more opinions. ._.
Anyways, I think we beat Sheik in the air. I'm not really sure on how good her aerial priority is, but I believe bair will beat most of Sheik's aerials but her bair on the sweetspot. Her uair is good if we have to land. She can't really outright kill us well, and it's pretty hard to gimp a Yoshi. Usmash can hit through the platforms on BF. I learned the hard way. >_>
Umm, I can't really think of much here. on the ground I think Sheik wins, but I also think our bair will beat out most of Sheik's ground game. Dsmash is annoying. I hate it.
Need more opinions. ._.
Metatitan
Smash Master
I for one don't have matchup experience in this and I really can't think of a top sheik main that plays against a top yoshi main (unless bwett or green ace have sheik mains nearby that no1 knows about). Yoshi kills easier? Idk lol
Bwett
Smash Ace
Yoshi kills easier is a completely true statement. Picture sheik as yoshi with the ability to wrack up damage faster, the ability to gimp, but has an even harder time killing. We have fsmash to get lucky kills or good reads at lower percents. They have usmash.
I would input knowledge, but I don't really know the matchup so well. I've never really put much thought into it, but I have played Light, the best and only sheik I've ever played or seen.
Also, I wouldn't really put chain as a viable block for bair. Isn't there too much lag on it to really be effective without being punished? It'd be like saying DDD's upb can beat a move...so? lol
I would input knowledge, but I don't really know the matchup so well. I've never really put much thought into it, but I have played Light, the best and only sheik I've ever played or seen.
Also, I wouldn't really put chain as a viable block for bair. Isn't there too much lag on it to really be effective without being punished? It'd be like saying DDD's upb can beat a move...so? lol
With Sheiks decayed ftilt to usmash(one of the better vertical killers in the game), she and Yoshi go pretty even in the kill department.
You played Light Bwett? How'd that go? Light's pretty up there as far as Sheik players are concerned.
How are you going to punish me for a SH chain? An egg? Oh no please don't hit me with an egg. Honestly a SH chain to beat your bair and then retracting the chain is surprisingly not as punishable as you would think. It can also lock you for a good 30% before you'll have the sense enough to SDI out of it. I wouldn't mind trading getting hit with an egg at all. I'm not sure if Yoshi's down b can hit Sheik out of it though.......i'll have to test.
You played Light Bwett? How'd that go? Light's pretty up there as far as Sheik players are concerned.
How are you going to punish me for a SH chain? An egg? Oh no please don't hit me with an egg. Honestly a SH chain to beat your bair and then retracting the chain is surprisingly not as punishable as you would think. It can also lock you for a good 30% before you'll have the sense enough to SDI out of it. I wouldn't mind trading getting hit with an egg at all. I'm not sure if Yoshi's down b can hit Sheik out of it though.......i'll have to test.
Bwett
Smash Ace
Light and I played a few games Sheik v Yoshi. It feels kinda even, but once again, I wasn't really paying much attention to how the matchup would go.
I don't know the properties of chain well so I don't know the ending lag or its damage. You ignore eggs like most players that haven't played a Yoshi consistently do. Keep in mind that eggs do 9%, the same as many tilts. Two eggs and that is the damage of a decent smash attack.
It is bad to assume that we won't SDI out of the chain. Rather than assume that a person doesn't have the sense to do something, lets say they do. I bair towards you and you hit me with chain. With average SDI from reactions alone (not preparing for it), how fast could I get out and with how much time would I have to punish? Would I be able to grab you in your lag of retrieving the chain? How about running usmash? Egg?
In this matchup, you will really need to watch how many eggs you take. Both characters can rack up damage fast, but sheik doesnt have a great answer to eggs from the edge and has a harder time killing. Where we can kill you in the range of 110%+ on average, it would take (estimate) around $150%+ to kill a Yoshi. 10 eggs along with a grab or two would put you pretty close in that range.
All I'm saying is that for your benefit, don't underestimate the power a single egg holds. Eggs have frame traps to grabs as well as other things.
I don't know the properties of chain well so I don't know the ending lag or its damage. You ignore eggs like most players that haven't played a Yoshi consistently do. Keep in mind that eggs do 9%, the same as many tilts. Two eggs and that is the damage of a decent smash attack.
It is bad to assume that we won't SDI out of the chain. Rather than assume that a person doesn't have the sense to do something, lets say they do. I bair towards you and you hit me with chain. With average SDI from reactions alone (not preparing for it), how fast could I get out and with how much time would I have to punish? Would I be able to grab you in your lag of retrieving the chain? How about running usmash? Egg?
In this matchup, you will really need to watch how many eggs you take. Both characters can rack up damage fast, but sheik doesnt have a great answer to eggs from the edge and has a harder time killing. Where we can kill you in the range of 110%+ on average, it would take (estimate) around $150%+ to kill a Yoshi. 10 eggs along with a grab or two would put you pretty close in that range.
All I'm saying is that for your benefit, don't underestimate the power a single egg holds. Eggs have frame traps to grabs as well as other things.
Sorry, the chain lock is only used on a grounded opponent.....I should have made that clear. The chain is rather hard to explain but if your in the chain lock you can SDI it, but if I do it correctly you can't get out for a while no matter what I do. Sorry that's my fault for not being clear. Ignore the bit about the chain lock.
What I meant to say was that I will trade a couple chain hits to get hit with an egg. I don't think eggs are too bad of a projectile or anything........but needles over eggs anyday. Oh and needles stop Yoshi's bair......so really the chain was just brought up by me as another option. You can't just bair at Sheik because one needle stops it.
Oh and eggs do not bother Sheiks recovery. You would be better off grabbing the edge to take away Sheik chain tether and force her to vanish.
Oh and by the way Sheiks tipper usmash kills Yoshi around 105% with proper DI. As long as ftilt is decayed it combos directly into a tipper at kill percentages.............something not very many non-Sheik players are aware of.
A couple needle storms, a couple ftilts, and a couple grabs and Yoshi is in kill range.........see what I did there
By the way I <3 the Yoshi boards.......you guys are really intelligent posters.
Bwett
Smash Ace
When I said eggs from the edge, I meant we are spamming eggs while holding the edge and yall are on stage lol.
Is ftilt to usmash guaranteed on Wario?
Is ftilt to usmash guaranteed on Wario?
Poltergust
Smash Master
I have a question. Can Sheik f-tilt lock Yoshi, or can Yoshi simply double-jump out of it? It seems weak enough in knockback to double-jump out of it at any reasonable percentage.
Ok......Sheik has ftilt to usmash on every character in the game. She can't tilt lock every character......including Yoshi because of his nair. The weak knockback is actually what makes the move lock because the next ftilt comes out so quickly that you have to have a really quick/high priority move to escape. Moves with properties like Marths DS can also break out of it because of the invincibility frames.
Now when I say ftilt to usmash, I mean spamming ftilt. Using ftilt OoS, for shield pressure, for anything. Simple ftilt to nair and ftilt to utilt combos can keep your ftilt decayed. Once it's decayed and your opponent is at a high percent, the knockback will be so severely reduced that the opponent will pop right into place for the tipper. A lot of Sheiks don't use this style because it's so boring.....but it is the most effective style.
So pretty much Sheik has a lethal kill setup on every character in the game.......shhhhh keep that secret though
Now when I say ftilt to usmash, I mean spamming ftilt. Using ftilt OoS, for shield pressure, for anything. Simple ftilt to nair and ftilt to utilt combos can keep your ftilt decayed. Once it's decayed and your opponent is at a high percent, the knockback will be so severely reduced that the opponent will pop right into place for the tipper. A lot of Sheiks don't use this style because it's so boring.....but it is the most effective style.
So pretty much Sheik has a lethal kill setup on every character in the game.......shhhhh keep that secret though
Bwett
Smash Ace
Is it guaranteed on Yoshi? Can he get out?
Poltergust
Smash Master
Wait, you said Yoshi can n-air out of the f-tilt lock? Yoshi's n-air comes out in 3 frames. His air-dodge comes out in 4. Also, which move is faster for Sheik: f-tilt or up-smash? Because if up-smash is slower then we should be able to n-air/air-dodge out of it, right?
The math behind decayed ftilt > usmash is a strange one, but basically the reason it works without possibility of escape even though it's slower than ftilt and ftilt lock gets beaten by nair is because of incorrect reading of when ftilt is hitting. Yoshi's a sorta-floaty heavy character (gets sent upward more easily but is resistant to knockback and by extension hitstun), so he gets sent up relatively quickly against ftilts and can typically nair after the second ftilt because by then he's too high in the air for the ftilt to hit at the optimal frame 5. However, usmash starts right above Sheik's head... where Yoshi is.
Still, the concept of using ftilt > usmash as a KO option is a difficult one, and demands an ftilt-centric playstyle, something rather difficult to pull off against Yoshi. At least Wario can get ftilt x2 -> aerial combo'd.
I'd put this matchup somewhere around even because though Yoshi has better survival and priority on his aerials, Sheik's got the speed and maneuverability to make it hard for Yoshi to actually land any clean hits.
Still, the concept of using ftilt > usmash as a KO option is a difficult one, and demands an ftilt-centric playstyle, something rather difficult to pull off against Yoshi. At least Wario can get ftilt x2 -> aerial combo'd.
I'd put this matchup somewhere around even because though Yoshi has better survival and priority on his aerials, Sheik's got the speed and maneuverability to make it hard for Yoshi to actually land any clean hits.
Bwett
Smash Ace
I like the analysis. Sounds pretty good
Jiggy
Smash Apprentice
Bold is quite true. I've learned this the hard way.
However, with the immense recovery that Yoshi seems to have, I tend to make sure to up special first, aiming for the player with eggs to discourage their use of needles. This will create an opening where the Yoshi can get back safe and sound.
I have no comment on the Sheik ftilt and what not, since I don't have much experience with encountering that.
Sheik have advantage in ground play, but yoshi's aproach gonna be in air anyway, sheik needle can take out 18% full charged and when isn't charged can block yoshi approach in ground, making yoshi aproach with bair. In my opinion 60:40 in advantage for yoshi, yoshi normaly plays in air and it takes advantage from sheik plays, the problem is in Sheik's Upsmash that can be easily made mindgamed, but if right spaced isn't so dangerous.
I wanna see a few certain someones post. I've never lost to a yoshi ~
Um... about ftilt.
I don't know what everyone is saying. You can't lock into a kill, however, successive ftilt are easily doable. The hit stunon fair is percent Dependant. ar low percents (below 40) you can jump out a lot of the time or even nair, but after that the hit stun is too high to avoid a follow up fair. the reason ftilt usmash works is because ftilt has so much hit stun at that point yoshi very literally cant do anything spare DI.
Needles pretty much single handly take this match up. in my experince yoshi has no real answers to them. Sheik is too fast even when walking to properly space moves like bair, your only really viable approach. and since she forces you to come to her that kind of sucks. when yoshi is above sheik he is in a bad situation despite his good air speed because of bair and uair wish vertically out range and out speed his options. on the ground we win in practicle range (I.E. not including fsmashes). and our punishing game is way strong with needles dacus dash attack and jab OOS.
Its a match up where if we aren't approaching and forcing you to work we win. and since needles force you to come to us...
Thats how I've always played the match up.
~Um... about ftilt.
I don't know what everyone is saying. You can't lock into a kill, however, successive ftilt are easily doable. The hit stunon fair is percent Dependant. ar low percents (below 40) you can jump out a lot of the time or even nair, but after that the hit stun is too high to avoid a follow up fair. the reason ftilt usmash works is because ftilt has so much hit stun at that point yoshi very literally cant do anything spare DI.
Needles pretty much single handly take this match up. in my experince yoshi has no real answers to them. Sheik is too fast even when walking to properly space moves like bair, your only really viable approach. and since she forces you to come to her that kind of sucks. when yoshi is above sheik he is in a bad situation despite his good air speed because of bair and uair wish vertically out range and out speed his options. on the ground we win in practicle range (I.E. not including fsmashes). and our punishing game is way strong with needles dacus dash attack and jab OOS.
Its a match up where if we aren't approaching and forcing you to work we win. and since needles force you to come to us...
Thats how I've always played the match up.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Yoshi has way too much air speed and mobility to get ***** by needles.
You havent played any good yoshis either.
I never lost to a shiek as yoshi when i mained yoshi, doesnt matter cuz ive never played any top shieks
You havent played any good yoshis either.
I never lost to a shiek as yoshi when i mained yoshi, doesnt matter cuz ive never played any top shieks
...I know, lol.
Ahh... but in all seriousness. yoshi doesn't have enough vertical airspeed to reall just avoid needles on reaction. The main thing though is using needles while yoshi is in cooldown from moves like egg toss, when yoshi is landing, or when yoshi is pretending bair is a viable approach.
VSC.D-Torr
Smash Hero
I guess I should actually play you, <3
Poltergust
Smash Master
<3, have we even played each other outside of friendlies?
No, but its so much fun poking fun at you. You're good and you've definitely been proving it lately. That said I still feel sheik as a fair advantage in the match up.
I still play pretty seriously even in friendlies felt like you were putting your all in too, but if you need to MM to get the blood boiling and help me better understand the match up thats cool too though I'd rather not.
@D-Torr: yeah man it's always fun playing new people.
I still play pretty seriously even in friendlies felt like you were putting your all in too, but if you need to MM to get the blood boiling and help me better understand the match up thats cool too though I'd rather not.
@D-Torr: yeah man it's always fun playing new people.
bump because Germany is a Sheik Country and this thread is kinda dead (information here is too old and the last posts was in 09 lol)
Needles are gay, is feels like Yoshi can't do anything about it, I would suggest that we should ban FD against her.
the CG Spike makes the match-up easier if it connects (but it's toooo easy to avoid)
Needles are gay, is feels like Yoshi can't do anything about it, I would suggest that we should ban FD against her.
the CG Spike makes the match-up easier if it connects (but it's toooo easy to avoid)
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
No experience here, ill leave it all to you guys :D
I don't think it's that bad.I would ban Battlefield before I get rid of Final.
Can't you just short hop airdodge through needles? I'm more afraid of how she pushes Yoshi around in his shield from underneath a platform and her legitimate upsmash. Forward tilt is old and she's really easy to grab, but not very easy to tilt (which you would think would go the other way around).
Her neutral air causes problems.
Chain can sometimes be homo? LOL it's so silly.
Airborne
Smash Lord
Calling in Judo for this MU... we played the **** thing WAYYYYY too many times.
Hi polt~
Needles are just too much for yoshi I think. and if sheik isn't approaching her close range game is way better. also grabbing sheik isn't easy.
I would never ever counterpick FD against Sheik again. It's like she throws needles you get hit, instantly. If you jump you get hit while landing.
transcendent priority is gay for Yoshi D:
if she camps needles on FD we have a hard time. (I know what I say, germany is a sheik country xD at a 14 Man Event there are 4 sheiks at least)
the only way to beat sheik here is to pressure her but she has a better close game.
-> don't pick FD against Sheiks who know what to do.
transcendent priority is gay for Yoshi D:
if she camps needles on FD we have a hard time. (I know what I say, germany is a sheik country xD at a 14 Man Event there are 4 sheiks at least)
the only way to beat sheik here is to pressure her but she has a better close game.
-> don't pick FD against Sheiks who know what to do.
Polt beat me >: (
still think it is heavily in her favor if she camps Yoshi hard and forces him to approach.
still think it is heavily in her favor if she camps Yoshi hard and forces him to approach.
D
Deleted member
Guest
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
"Polt beat me"
Funniest thing ive heard all year.
"Polt beat me"
Funniest thing ive heard all year.
TT__TT
it isn't funny its sad. I am now and for ever will be a pupil of the blood god.
it isn't funny its sad. I am now and for ever will be a pupil of the blood god.
bigman40
Smash Master
So if it's heavily in your favor, why you lose? lol.
Anyways, Sheik players will vote to play on big stages while we would be going for the smaller ones.
Anyways, Sheik players will vote to play on big stages while we would be going for the smaller ones.
I don't play yoshi's enough.
Yoshi is heavy and hard to gimp (double jump armor + he shoot hit boxes out of his face while stalling) I had a commanding lead but I think lack of experince in yoshi's moveset did me in. Errors on my part can lead to early deaths because of usmash and uair. I haven't played a yoshi since the last time I played Polt.
And I don't say that to belittle his win. ultimately he was the better player and made metter choices over all thats why he won that set. won't happen again though
Yoshi is heavy and hard to gimp (double jump armor + he shoot hit boxes out of his face while stalling) I had a commanding lead but I think lack of experince in yoshi's moveset did me in. Errors on my part can lead to early deaths because of usmash and uair. I haven't played a yoshi since the last time I played Polt.
And I don't say that to belittle his win. ultimately he was the better player and made metter choices over all thats why he won that set. won't happen again though
indigestible_wad
Smash Lord
Do needles go through ground pound stars?
yes they do.
~Firefly~
Smash Hero
...When would needles even collide with DownB stars in the first place?
When does anything collide with downB stars .w. This is new to me...