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Yoshi v. Zero Suit Samus

Shiri

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:yoshi: This is the thread for discussion on the Yoshi v. Zero Suit Samus matchup.
 

Delta-cod

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Um, I'm afraid of ZSS. :urg:

I don't really know how to fight her. I usually end up running and camping. Playing aggressive usually gets me *****. Forward B gets you on the edge. Her aerials are annoying.

:027:
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: Okay.

Yoshis need to stop camping.

Yoshi's camp is not that good.

Especially against characters...

...who don't want you near them...

...like Zero Suit Samus.

Just get inside her range and keep pecking at her. The only things she can retaliate with are jabs and up tilt. You outdamage her by a large margin and have more overall KO power even though she has lots of burst potential with down+B, side+B, and forward air.
 

Poltergust

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Her b-air is her best kill move, though.

And why can't we camp her? Her projectile sucks. There's not much of a risk involved when doing so.


:069:
 

Nefarious B

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I think the reason no one is responding to this is probly because no one has much yoshi experience.

I'll just say this. From what I understand, yoshi mostly relies on his aerial game because of his subpar ground game. This will be a problem for you guys against zss, who beats even MK in the air. She has disjointed hitboxes on her fair, bair, uair, and nair, and the first three are killing moves.

Because eggs can outrange everything she has, zss will hover in the mid to close ranges. What you guys should figure out is how you can deal with her superior spacing, excellent mobility, and fast attacks, within those zones.
 

Delta-cod

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Aha... Thanks, Shiri. >.>''

I think camping her is bad because she has immense range with some of her moves. Getting in can be hard sometimes.

Nefarious pretty much hit what I feel about this MU on the head.


:027:
 

.Marik

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This is one hard motherf*cking matchup.

Zero Suit Samus has an insane hitbox range on most of her moves, and Yoshi gets ***** if hit. FSmash, UpSmash, and Dair/Uair hurt. A lot.

I always have a hard time against these two particular ZSS mains who show up at virtually every Tournament I attend.

Egg Spam helps, so does Pivot Grabbing. Playing aggressive is a no-no. Bait ZSS, and wait for openings. I normally take ZSS to the air, but in a range close enough to her where she can't punish the sh*t out of me.

But still, better range, better pressuring tactics, crazy hitboxes, those annoying Smashes on ZSS make this a very, very hard matchup.

I normally take ZSS off-stage and aerial combat her, while pressuring and baiting accordingly. But still, Yoshi struggles.

60:40 ZSS's favour. At the very least.
 
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I think Yoshi has a chaingrab on her... I don't know exactly what the conditions are or if it's escapable or anything.

I normally take ZSS to the air, but in a range close enough to her where she can't punish the sh*t out of me.
Probably your best bet, but you can't out-prioritize or out-range ZSS in the air, so you will have to mindgame her into getting hit by your attacks.

I do know that Yoshi's grab wrecks her, heh.

It's hard if not impossible for us to gimp you, and vice versa.
 
D

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This is one hard motherf*cking matchup.

Zero Suit Samus has an insane hitbox range on most of her moves, and Yoshi gets ***** if hit. FSmash, UpSmash, and Dair/Uair hurt. A lot.
Fsmash is one of the worst moves in the game, dair is also terrible. Up smash is ok, its only bad if ur above and trying to land cuz the hitbox lasts a while. Up air is amazing so yea thats trouble.
I always have a hard time against these two particular ZSS mains who show up at virtually every Tournament I attend.
Sorry
Egg Spam helps, so does Pivot Grabbing. Playing aggressive is a no-no. Bait ZSS, and wait for openings. I normally take ZSS to the air, but in a range close enough to her where she can't punish the sh*t out of me.
Uhh she can just run up and side b if u egg spam, unless you are spamming in front of her, which is ok i guess. Playing agressive is a yes yes, because yoshi has an amazing jab cancel game, and ZSS has only 1 good OOS option (utilt). She isnt hard to approach, just dont approach in the middle of her side b and you are good. I dont follow up on too much just because of down b, but rather, bait the down bs and grab.
But still, better range, better pressuring tactics, crazy hitboxes, those annoying Smashes on ZSS make this a very, very hard matchup.
She doesnt have better range in a lot of things, and you shouldnt be letting her pressure you too much, shes mostly gonna be doing stuff from mid range, or punishing with down b :p
I normally take ZSS off-stage and aerial combat her, while pressuring and baiting accordingly. But still, Yoshi struggles.

60:40 ZSS's favour. At the very least.
50:50 in my opinion.
I play against fierce sometimes, whos the 2nd best ZSS main in socal (i believe), and we go even usually, almost always down to last hit.

The ONLY thing to worry about is being above her and her down smash. She has not very much else that gives yoshi trouble. Camp a tiny bit, but really you dont have to, ZSS isnt hard to approach. Like i said, side b can stop approaches but only if you try to go in the middle of it, you can literally run in and grab her if she does an approaching side b, its that easy.
We do have a chain grab, but unless the yoshi does it very well, she can down b out of it, so i like baiting the down bs and punishing with an usmash (if i think she wont jump after) or a rising uair(surprise **** :p )

:o
Also, yoshis ground game is hardly supbar, and is the main place we will be beating ZSS.
 

.Marik

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I see...

Burntsockz, I'll take your opinions into consideration.

FSmash always seems to **** me, and I get pressured, although not as hard as Sheep's R.O.B. does. :dizzy:

I've gotten better, and I haven't played Kuenzel in a while. Maybe I should re-evaluate.

I'm always busy taking ZSS to the air and Grabbing her to implement Jabs as a valid technique. I'm sure I'll have the hang of it pretty soon, but there's no way this matchup can possibly be even. Zamus is just too hard. D:
 

Metatitan

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I'll play bwett with my zss at genesis and I'll let you guys know how that goes. I like to think I have a good zss :p
 

fkacyan

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Zero Suit can also jab OOS, and it's 1 frame, by the way.

Me and Snakeee agreed that this was even months ago after we'd both played a lot against Pride.
 

Metatitan

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Zero Suit can also jab OOS, and it's 1 frame, by the way.

Me and Snakeee agreed that this was even months ago after we'd both played a lot against Pride.
Yeah and since yoshi would have to shield the third hit, it would probably put him in a better position not to shield it.
 

Jiggy

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Just get inside her range and keep pecking at her. The only things she can retaliate with are jabs and up tilt. You outdamage her by a large margin and have more overall KO power even though she has lots of burst potential with down+B, side+B, and forward air.
I don't have much experience with ZSS, but from what I can tell, this is pretty much how you need to go about this matchup.

Hard thing is getting a ko move on her, since she can bounce everywhere. Side smash is somewhat slow, and u-air is out-prioritized by her d-air if I'm not mistaken (please someone correct me if I'm wrong).
 

pwiito

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This is an even match. I've played snakee, just be good at definition, she's a light characterl u-air and u-smash, it's easy to combo her at high damage, watch out for down smashes and special B, she can basicly do anything she wants, ur paralised XD
 

MX778

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IMO, you have to watch out for that D-smash more than anything.
It's hardly DIable and it's not like the ZSS will give you time to escape before they combo the **** out of you either. :p

The real battle is getting inside that long range of hers. >__>
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: Gimmick characters like Zero Suit Samus have lots of these really high steel fences to climb.

Once you get over them and make sure you don't get pushed back on the other side, you should be fine.

I don't think you need anything particularly techy for this matchup, but I haven't played it in a while. I stick to the basics, mostly, as doing your job (getting inside and staying there) is difficult enough as is.
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: The difficult part is staying away from the Side+B without staying away from the character.

Na' mean?
 

Metatitan

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According to Snakeee, zss is played completely different now. Apparently they don't use Side B for spacing anymore (although a few of them are going a little overboard and calling it horrible >_>)
 

.Marik

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It's 55:45 Zamus's favour. Maybe even 60:40.

Basically, Yoshi needs to get "inside" Zamus.

However, this is hard because of Dair, DSmash, and long-range moves that punish Yoshi if we get to close and can't find an opening.

We have particular moves that are good against Zamus in close-range combat, but if she spaces correctly, it shuts us down.

Bair and Pivot-Grabbing are our only consistent options to approach her safely, in my opinion.

I've always had trouble with this matchup, enough to convince me it isn't Yoshi's favour.
 

Snakeee

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Basically, Yoshi needs to get "inside" Zamus.
He wishes. Samus isn't into that beastiality stuff.

Actually, It's almost the other way around. I always try to break through against Yoshi, and the eggs are a pest at least. I guess at point blank, Yoshi's jabs ultimately win bc even though our first is faster, you can interrupt and probably always break through with your own after the first comes out. I approach with a lot of falling up airs and b-airs while usually landing behind him. While it's hard for most characters to punish this, it's much harder for Yoshi. He also get's juggled worse than others. I don't know though, something about Yoshi makes things just a little tricky for me, and I can't think of what it is exactly. The match up is about 6/4 ZSS.
 

mountain_tiger

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55:45 ZSS's favour sounds about right to me. But simply, she wins at mid-range, Yoshi wins at close range. I think it's slightly in ZSS' favour because she can shield pressure him better and has a slightly easier time landing the kill.
 

Snakeee

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FYI the best move Yoshi has in this match-up is grab. It is annoying, lol.
I don't know I avoid it a lot more than I used to, but it is pretty good. The CG does not work on ZSS btw. I had some debate on this a long time ago, and they say she can't down B out, but I always have. MAYBE if it's done absolutely frame perfect it could be possible, but I haven't had anyone do that.
 

.Marik

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I don't know I avoid it a lot more than I used to, but it is pretty good. The CG does not work on ZSS btw. I had some debate on this a long time ago, and they say she can't down B out, but I always have. MAYBE if it's done absolutely frame perfect it could be possible, but I haven't had anyone do that.
The ChainGrab is very situational and unreliable.

FYI the best move Yoshi has in this match-up is grab. It is annoying, lol.
You mean Pivot-Grabbing, it's more unpredictable and the reward is greater while the risk of being punished is significantly less.
 

Snakeee

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:yoshi: Gimmick characters like Zero Suit Samus have lots of these really high steel fences to climb.

Once you get over them and make sure you don't get pushed back on the other side, you should be fine.

I don't think you need anything particularly techy for this matchup, but I haven't played it in a while. I stick to the basics, mostly, as doing your job (getting inside and staying there) is difficult enough as is.

There's no gimmicks...not anymore.

:yoshi: The difficult part is staying away from the Side+B without staying away from the character.

Na' mean?
If I somehow try to rely on that move (especially in this match up), please kill me.
I hardly ever really use it at all anymore. THAT move is a gimmick for the most part.

And 3 frames to CG really? Is that including her down B to escape? I really don't see it, but it could be true. I just don't get how they could not get it within that window after so many times.
 

Airborne

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There's no gimmicks...not anymore.



If I somehow try to rely on that move (especially in this match up), please kill me.
I hardly ever really use it at all anymore. THAT move is a gimmick for the most part.

And 3 frames to CG really? Is that including her down B to escape? I really don't see it, but it could be true. I just don't get how they could not get it within that window after so many times.
you should seriously get this through everyone's head that side-b is not worth abusing so hard.... because although it is easy to punish, it's just **** annoying.
 

Silent Beast

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the cg's been frame tested, Yoshi has three frames to respond.


And 3 frames to CG really? Is that including her down B to escape? I really don't see it, but it could be true. I just don't get how they could not get it within that window after so many times.
Actually, looking at Yikarur's original post on the topic, it looks like it's just 2 frames, when you consider that ZSS's down-B is invincible during frames 1-12:

Chaingrab on ZSS is possible.
A Frame Perfect grabe occur in frame 49.
ZSS can jump/downB/etc at Frame 51
 

Snakeee

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Actually, looking at Yikarur's original post on the topic, it looks like it's just 2 frames, when you consider that ZSS's down-B is invincible during frames 1-12:
In that case though, it's incredibly hard to pull off. ZSS has a CG on Snake that if done right is a 0-60%, but the window is one, maybe two frames (it's even possible it's not legit at all now IMO). I don't even try that anymore because if I miss it's going to hurt, bad :(. For Yoshi to attempt that is not a big deal because he'll hardly ever be punished for it. In fact he can put himself in a good position if he expects the down B.

And Airborne, I plan on making a topic about it on the ZSS boards. I wanted to make sure I was 100% on everything before I did it (plus I've been busy with midterms), but I'm hearing sooo much misinformation on it that I'll probably make it really soon.
 

Sharky

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so I played snakeee today and got *****. he's used to playing pride, and I've never done the mu before. so yeah. I did ok in friendlies afterward though, still lost but better. I need more work on the mu before I can say anything but I think it's slight ZSS advantage, possibly more than slight
 

Delta-cod

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No, I'm pretty confident it's even. We can combat pretty much every one of her options decently. She also doesn't have many great OoS options so we can apply good pressure. There's the CG if you land a grab.

Anyways, this is one MU I don't play incredibly gay in. It's pretty fun.
 

Delta-cod

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I used to have the same problem because I used to try to camp this MU. You really can't do it, it's better to play a more aggressive game. At least in my experience.

Yes, I did just advise not camping and being gay. It must be true. =O
 

Sharky

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I only talked to him briefly, he didn't say anything specifically about the match-up, but he did say that I was only doing so bad because I didn't know the mu
 
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