Sexy Poses!: An In-Depth Move Analysis for Zelda - Move #18-20, 22 Up/Down B, Dash A

JigglyZelda003 · Jun 26, 2009

An In-Depth Move Analysis for Zelda

What is this??!?!

In preparation for a future Zelda guide , this is going to be an in-depth move analysis that will eventually be condensed and used for the general guide. The goal is to go through each of Zelda's moves individually and identify all the possible uses for each one.

Get creative! This is meant to cover all of each move's uses, from the basic to the advanced, from the solid to the situational. Even if there's a 1/1000 chance that something will work, make note of it -- just make sure to admit that it's risky.

This is meant to be a positive thread. We've all accepted that Zelda is bottom tier; let's move past that and find ways to make her work. Trolling (you know who you are) and excessive, pointless arguing will not be tolerated in this thread. If it happens, I'll ask Kataefi to close this and write the move analysis my **** self.

I <3 you all. Thanks goes to Kaylo for starting this thread and then giving it to me after move #4!

Move #18-20, 22

pics coming eventually

Move discussion history

*summaries coming soon*

Move #1 Ftilt
Move #2 Utilt
Move #3 Dair
Move #4 Din's Fire
Move #5 Nair
Move #6 Nayru's Love
Move #7 Down Throw
Move #8 Up Throw
Move #9 Forward Throw
Move #10 Back Throw
Move #11 Up Smash
Move #12 Up Air
Move #13 Down Smash
Move #14 Forward Air
Move #15 Back Air
Move #16 Dtilt
Move #17 Forward Smash
Move #18 Dash Attack
Move #19 Faroes Wind
Move #20 Transform
Move #21 Jab(already discussed but forgot to mark)
Move #22+ other attack actions
If anything needs correction or clarification, please let me know. Let's discuss!

KayLo! · Jun 29, 2009

My super delicious frame data and stuff I know will go here!

-Mars- · Jun 29, 2009

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=191452

I guess it wouldn't hurt to do it again though, especially if this is going to be more in depth.

KayLo! · Jun 29, 2009

marsulas said:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=191452

I guess it wouldn't hurt to do it again though, especially if this is going to be more in depth.

Yeah, now that all the frame data's done and the metagame has evolved since then, I don't think it'll hurt to redo this. Kataefi approved it, and the other thread died, so it's all good.

In regards to ftilt, a lot of people say they use it to intercept aerial attacks.... I've never actually tried using it that way, preferring to cover myself with usmash/fsmash/jab. Which moves does it actually beat out?

MrEh · Jun 29, 2009

Ftilt can beat out a lot of things actually. Too bad it's slow.

It's like Bowser's Ftilt. But inferior in every way. lol

KuroganeHammer · Jun 29, 2009

Wow. Ftilt looks pretty awesome. I guess that a ftilt angled up won't hit shorter characters?

Anyway, at low percentages, you can use ftilt and if they go behind Zelda, it might set up a bair Lightning Kick. Just my opinion.

sniperworm · Jun 29, 2009

Ftilt is far from the useless move that people claim it is.

The up-angled Ftilt is a decent anti-air move depending on the aerial your opponent is using. Generally speaking up-angled Ftilt beats any aerial whose hitbox doesn't go below their hurtbox or has poor range. The lunging effect can also be used to surprise opponents and catch them before they use their aerial, often allowing it to beat out things like Marth's Fair that should win against the Ftilt. Mixing up retreating pivot grabs and up-angled Ftilts is fairly disruptive to your opponent's spacing as they'll have to choose between attacking where you are now (Usmash) or where you will be (either farther away via retreating pivot grab or closer via Ftilt).

The most notable move that Ftilt can beat is the G&W Bair. There are many other aerials that it beats, but I honestly don't keep track of everything I beat out with it.

Standard Ftilt is actually a decent poke. A spaced Ftilt is relatively unpunishable because of the shield pushback and range. It's also faster than an Fsmash so it can surprise people.

The only use I've really found for the down-angled Ftilt is when you're uphill from your opponent or trying to swipe at people using their second jump to try and get to the ledge. There might be more but I don't really remember, lol.

That being said, there are quite a few drawbacks involved with Ftilt. It's very unsafe if dodged, poorly spaced, or perfect shielded. It's also not that fast, so it needs to be used with prediction in order for you to get full effect of the up-angled Ftilt. It's true range (the distance the hitbox extends away from her body's hurtbox during the attack hitbox) isn't nearly as impressive as it seems and it's disjointedness is almost non-existent. That means that shorter ranged, faster moves could potentially beat out Ftilt despite its "range advantage". It also carries transcendant priority which means that you cannot use it to clank with an attack to protect yourself (important against swords and projectiles). Lastly, it's important to remember that it's odd knockback angle means that it does not kill effectively until higher percents.

MrEh · Jun 30, 2009

The most notable move that Ftilt can beat is the G&W Bair. There are many other aerials that it beats, but I honestly don't keep track of everything I beat out with it.

The key word is that it can beat out the turtle. XD

But yeah, the Ftilt has a pretty funky hitbox. Ftilt is Cluff. lol

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Jun 30, 2009

I actually really like Ftilt.

on fresh stocks, Ftilt normally leads to Usmash or SHNair.

but when I really like it is later in stocks. Ftilt is faster than the Fsmash, has virtually identical range and trades favourably. It doesn't kill until relatively high percentages, but by the time it gets there, it should be completely fresh. It's not an ideal kill move, but it's not bad at that job.

Trancendent priority is great as is huge range.... but it's very punishable.

-Mars- · Jun 30, 2009

I really don't use ftilt ever. Really the only use I could think of for it is a quicker KO option at higher percents than fsmash that can't be DI'ed out of.

Dtilt is a much better poke

Fsmash is much safer if whiffed/spotdodged/powershielded

It only kills at very high percents so really your better of killing with usmash. Even a decayed usmash would probably kill when your in percentage range to kill with ftilt.

GodAtHand · Jun 30, 2009

Something I noticed is that on some smaller characters the downward angled Ftilt has a better chance to hit than standard.

Another thing is (although not guaranteed) at lower percents you can combo with it. On Snake one thing I can do fairly consistently is jab/ down angled ftilt/ jab/ down angled ftilt/ upsmash for like 50% damage...

Kataefi · Jun 30, 2009

I've got some pictures of the actual hitbox of Ftilt kaylo which might be interesting:

It has a very fine and precise hitbox and what's interesting is that I remember someone saying it attacks the Z Plane, so characters like ROB who have excellent spotdodges can be caught out with Ftilt when their invincibility runs out.

Also... because it has such a fine hitbox, angling it up or down can really poke through shields very well.

Has anyone noticed it's significant drawback distance - sometimes I find you can bait very well with it - an opponent thinks you've whiffed the attack and rushes in, but the drawback is at times enough to trap them in another move as they approach.

MrEh · Jun 30, 2009

If you're using Ftilt to kill, then you're doing it wrong.

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Jun 30, 2009

MrEh said:
If you're using Ftilt to kill, then you're doing it wrong.

excuse me but, when Ftilt starts being able to kill, it's normally a better option that other attacks. It's not like it's a weak move.

Kataefi · Jun 30, 2009

I guess so... I kind of see it as if the opponent is being killed by Ftilt then you've probably played that stock wrongly as they should have died much earlier from an aerial or any other kill move, but if your opponent has managed to live to a position where Ftilt will kill them then by all means use it as it will be one of the faster and probably most surprising kill options available.

I like the angle it sends at... you can normally chase really well in the air. I've wanted to know how DI can affect the trajectory of this move.

KayLo! · Jun 30, 2009

Kataefi said:
It has a very fine and precise hitbox and what's interesting is that I remember someone saying it attacks the Z Plane, so characters like ROB who have excellent spotdodges can be caught out with Ftilt when their invincibility runs out.

Lol, Kata, you love that little sparkle. I knew you'd mention it at some point. XD

Also, yeah, some spotdodges (and maybe other types of evasion moves, like airdodges) have two types of invincibility: complete invincibility and frames where the character is simply "in the background." During the latter, they cannot be hit by 2-D moves (sucks for G&W, lolol) but can be hit by 3-D moves.

It's the reason why DDD, for example, is considered a character with a good spotdodge. Although his actual IFs are identical to many other characters', he has a lot of background frames where 2-D moves (like grabs) will fail to reach him.

Lucky for Zelda, most of her moves (usmash, ftilt, fsmash, even dsmash iirc) are 3-D moves since a majority of them are magic-based.

MrEh said:
If you're using Ftilt to kill, then you're doing it wrong.

KayLo! said:
This is meant to cover all of each move's uses, from the basic to the advanced, from the solid to the situational. Even if there's a 1/1000 chance that something will work, make note of it -- just make sure to admit that it's risky.

This is meant to be a positive thread.

Even though it's unlikely to KO, ftilt is still a viable kill move at very high percentages if, for whatever reason, your opponent has lived that long. It's worth noting even though it's not one of her main killers.

Kataefi · Jun 30, 2009

KayLo! said:
Lol, Kata, you love that little sparkle. I knew you'd mention it at some point. XD

Best hitbox in the game period =p. I mean look at it

... a cute little star with as much range as a blimmin sword - it's like going into a fight with a teddy bear and beating out all the swords, hammers and ultra cool weapons it clashes with.

Oh and stuff about the Z axis really interests me. Check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwI6nf89kQM

Has anyone noticed that you can tend to catch opponents at ridiculous ranges and from strange angles when you thought it wouldn't?

Well, if you look very closely at Ftilt's hitbox... you'll see that the disjointed star comes out the moment her animation starts and crosses the entire Z plane until the animation finishes. I believe that the hitbox isn't necessarily out at frames 12-14... it could be out earlier or later and will strike the corresponding body parts of the opponent that are in the corresponding parts of the Z plane, if that makes any sense?

It would be cool to test out if Ftilt can beat any spotdodges like DDD's and Rob's who go into this alternate plane to avoid attacks.

I think this can also be an explanation as to why her magic moves are so reactive to hurtboxes, because they tend to cover the entire x, y and z planes on the stage.

This is totally all theory... but I find it interesting to say the least. sorry for the waddling. edit: I didn't really know where I was meant to be leading with all this theory stuffff, but I thought I'd mention it =p (plus need to change to my unique colour)

KayLo! · Jun 30, 2009

Kataefi said:
I believe that the hitbox isn't necessarily out at frames 12-14... it could be out earlier or later and will strike the corresponding body parts of the opponent that are in the corresponding parts of the Z plane, if that makes any sense?

I'll retest it. I'm pretty sure it's 12-14, but I get what you're saying, so I'll double-check since I can't remember if I tested from right up underneath her armpits (which is where these theoretical extra first and last hitbox frames would be).

Kataefi · Jun 30, 2009

yeah I definitely trust your data kay, I wasn't trying to disprove it or anything - I guess I was just theorising about how the hitbox of 12-14 might be just the horizontal plane where the enemy stands there

edit: whereas if they suddenly spotdodge and their IFs run out, then Ftilt might take longer or earlier to reach them in this state. Could be interesting to look into - (I secretly think I might be overcomplicating brawl's mechanics just a little lol)

MrEh · Jun 30, 2009

excuse me but, when Ftilt starts being able to kill, it's normally a better option that other attacks. It's not like it's a weak move.

When Ftilt is within range to kill, then you could have killed them 30% ago with a Usmash.

And guess what? Usmash is easier to land.

Even though it's unlikely to KO, ftilt is still a viable kill move at very high percentages if, for whatever reason, your opponent has lived that long. It's worth noting even though it's not one of her main killers.

Everything is a viable kill move at high percents. The problem is that as Zelda, you can't afford getting your opponent to high percents. You either kill your opponent early with Zelda's freakish aerials, or go for a higher percent kill with a fresh Usmash or something. If you're killing your opponent at 150% or above, then chances are you've wasted too much time, and you've taken too much damage in the process.

Zelda's Ftilt is a lot like Bowser's Ftilt, where they both have terrible knockback angles. Any opponent with half a brain will not die from a ftilt until high percents, and that makes it terrible for killing, when Zelda could easily just throw out a Usmash or Dsmash instead at even lower percents.

I actually just did some testing. I sweetspotted a Ftilt against a Jigglypuff. And I even made sure that I didn't use the Ftilt the entire match so that it was as strong as possible. With good DI, Jiggs did not die until 128%. And that's Jigglypuff!

KayLo! · Jul 1, 2009

Nobody's disagreeing with you, MrEh. Yes, it's generally a bad kill move. No, your opponent shouldn't be that high in damage.

However, the point of this thread is to list all of a move's uses, even the obscure, situational, and/or not-so-good ones (as long as they're duly noted as such). I was defending Hedgedawg because I don't want people to be discouraged from contributing just because their suggestion isn't the best possible option for a particular attack.

Brinzy · Jul 1, 2009

Two things:

1) I'm sure that most, if not all of us have seen the one knockback of ftilt that sends the opponent in front of her. I'm thinking that this is when she connects with her arm but not this sparkle. I remember killing a Marth at 86%, before hit, with it. Granted, I was close to the edge of Smashville, but still. Anyone have any info on this?

2) "*The first ftilt on the opponent's stock, even fresh, will only do max 13% damage. Don't ask me why!" Percentages in Smash brothers actually use decimal places, but we can't see them. I can't readily think of an example to use to demonstrate this. In the case of Zelda's ftilt, it's probably doing something like 13.3%, or 13.7%... it's not really important as to how much it does exactly. This would account for why you always get 13% displayed at a fresh stock and why you can see 14% added to the current displayed percentage. Another way to look at it is when someone DI's the Fsmash very earlier. It may say that they took no damage, but a decayed Fsmash's weaker hitboxes all do damage. None of them do 1% alone, however, which accounts for why their percentage may not go up.

I hope this makes sense.

powuh_of_PIE · Jul 1, 2009

Does the knockback angle change at all depending on the up/down angle of the Ftilt? I seem to remember sending someone almost straight up when i up-angled it, but that might have just been weird SDI or something.

KayLo! · Jul 1, 2009

Successor of Raphael said:
Two things:

1) I'm sure that most, if not all of us have seen the one knockback of ftilt that sends the opponent in front of her. I'm thinking that this is when she connects with her arm but not this sparkle. I remember killing a Marth at 86%, before hit, with it. Granted, I was close to the edge of Smashville, but still. Anyone have any info on this?

2) "*The first ftilt on the opponent's stock, even fresh, will only do max 13% damage. Don't ask me why!" Percentages in Smash brothers actually use decimal places, but we can't see them. I can't readily think of an example to use to demonstrate this. In the case of Zelda's ftilt, it's probably doing something like 13.3%, or 13.7%... it's not really important as to how much it does exactly. This would account for why you always get 13% displayed at a fresh stock and why you can see 14% added to the current displayed percentage. Another way to look at it is when someone DI's the Fsmash very earlier. It may say that they took no damage, but a decayed Fsmash's weaker hitboxes all do damage. None of them do 1% alone, however, which accounts for why their percentage may not go up.

I hope this makes sense.

Gotcha, that makes sense. Thanks for the info!

As for your first point, yeah, ftilt has two hitboxes. The one you're talking about (that sends the opponent straight forward) is the close-range hitbox that requires you to be pretty close up on the other character.

powuh_of_PIE said:
Does the knockback angle change at all depending on the up/down angle of the Ftilt? I seem to remember sending someone almost straight up when i up-angled it, but that might have just been weird SDI or something.

I'm fairly sure that was DI on their part. Knockback may change in strength depending on the ftilt angle (I know that's the case with a lot of angle-able ftilts), but I don't think the knockback angle does as long as you're always hitting with that particular hitbox -- that is, the mid-tipper part of the move.

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Jul 1, 2009

Successor of Raphael said:
1) I'm sure that most, if not all of us have seen the one knockback of ftilt that sends the opponent in front of her. I'm thinking that this is when she connects with her arm but not this sparkle. I remember killing a Marth at 86%, before hit, with it. Granted, I was close to the edge of Smashville, but still. Anyone have any info on this?

that's her arm hitbox and, I'd say that's a useful consideration except, if you're close enough to hit with that, just Dsmash.

Kataefi · Jul 1, 2009

Does the range change depending on the angle?

Also... what kind of trajectories can it send at if the opponent uses different types of DI... if they DI up do they get sent further up, or at some strange angle?

powuh_of_PIE · Jul 1, 2009

Kataefi said:
Does the range change depending on the angle?

Also... what kind of trajectories can it send at if the opponent uses different types of DI... if they DI up to they get sent further up, or at some strange angle?

1) Insofar as her arm cannot reach as far ahead of her when it is tilted up/down as when it is straight across, yeah. Otherwise it is the same I think.

2) I've gotten all kinds of crazy stuff on occasion, but most common deviation from the normal angle (up and back) is straight up, which usually happens when I catch them jumping. Kind of hard to pull off on purpose, but it does make killing easier. Also noteworthy is that the only time I've ever killed with Ftilt was when my opponent SDI'd it straight up.

KayLo! · Jul 1, 2009

Kataefi said:
Also... what kind of trajectories can it send at if the opponent uses different types of DI... if they DI up to they get sent further up, or at some strange angle?

Honestly, they probably shouldn't try to DI ftilt since it already sends them in the best possible angle -- that is, towards the corner of the stage. If they DI up/away, they're sending themselves at a more vertical angle, which puts them closer to dying off the top. If they DI straight towards Zelda, they're going to go more horizontal, which puts them closer to dying off the side.

Also, JigglyZelda, I fixed your name in the OP..... whoopsie, lol.

Dayzin · Jul 1, 2009

Can you D-tilt to F-tilt? and is it possible to knock someone hanging off the ledge with the down angled f tilt?

JigglyZelda003 · Jul 1, 2009

lol i inspired it, but i think someone else said "sexy poses" before me XD

MrEh · Jul 1, 2009

Dayzin said:
Can you D-tilt to F-tilt?

Yes you can, if you can lock your opponents at higher percents. (or if they trip)

But honestly, why would you? Ftilt is terrible, and it's better to Dsmash or grab anyway.

JigglyZelda003 · Jul 2, 2009

but you shouldn't always give up the chance to get a sexy hit

Dayzin · Jul 2, 2009

MrEh said:
Yes you can, if you can lock your opponents at higher percents. (or if they trip)

But honestly, why would you? Ftilt is terrible, and it's better to Dsmash or grab anyway.

True, but the f tilt can lead to an uair or fair/bair can't it?

KayLo! · Jul 2, 2009

Dayzin said:
True, but the f tilt can lead to an uair or fair/bair can't it?

Uair maybe if you bait an airdodge or aerial (as usual when someone's above you).

Fair/bair probably won't be happening at that high of a percentage from an ftilt. They'd basically have to.... fall into it.

MrEh · Jul 2, 2009

Dayzin said:
True, but the f tilt can lead to an uair or fair/bair can't it?

If your opponent is a moron.

Brinzy · Jul 2, 2009

Why would you use ftilt to follow up a trip? If you're trying to save Dsmash for the kill, then obviously you'll wanna save it. It deals 13-14% right off hand and doesn't involve the chance of tripping as far as I know if your opponent himself trips. None of her throws put them at that trajectory, without DI. I find that most players are DIing in such a way that if you ftilt after that, they tend to go pretty verticle. Zelda's pummel may mean you won't get the same damage of a throw + pummel combination. And besides, if it's such an obscure move, what's the harm in using it if it sucks so badly that you wouldn't use it for anything else? Certainly not the best option, but it's definitely not the worst. Worst options would probably be jab and dash attack, but that's just me.

MrEh · Jul 2, 2009

Why Ftilt to follow a trip when you can grab? Grab's do more damage and can put your opponent in a far worse situation. And a dash grab has more range. lol

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Jul 2, 2009

.... why would you do either?

Smash attacks or Utilt > either.

or lightning kicks if the oponent is big enough.

Speaking of, if we're on a platform and make them trip, can we do a fall-through LK on anyone?

Kataefi · Jul 2, 2009

No it's definitely best to follow a trip with a grab --> when you factor in 1 pummel + throw, you'll do generally more damage than a smash attack, and it's not SDIable and you're move refreshing, it's just a better option (unless it's a fattie where you can just buffer a kick)

Using dsmash on a tripped opponent is a bit of a waste unless they're on the ledge...

mountain_tiger · Jul 2, 2009

Personally, I think that FTilt is an OK move, but nothing particularly great. It's not particularly fast, and it has some ending lag, making it easy to punish, but on the plus side, it does good damage when fresh. Although it does have decent knockback, I don't use it to kill very much, because her UTilt, smashes and Fair and Bair all do so better. To make the move a bit better, you can angle it to try and improve its range, and angled up it makes a nice anti-air move, and angled down it can hit crouching opponents. It can make a nice surprise attack, but you can't use it too much, or you'll get shieldgrabbed.

On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd rate it a 5.

Sexy Poses!: An In-Depth Move Analysis for Zelda - Move #18-20, 22 Up/Down B, Dash A

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