Ice Climbers
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Match-Up Rediscussion #2! Ice Climbers
- Thread starter Steel
- Start date
Go ^_^
BacklashMarth
Smash Lord
Marth will get grabbed and lose a stock for sure if there is no platform to abuse (obvious). I would expect ICs to camp as much as possible and try to get you whenever you whiff an attack. Marth has got numerous tools in his arsenal to split up Popo and Nana and even a good desync blizzard wont be much of an obstacle. A stock is lost once one player gains the advantage (marth gets grabbed or ICs get split up). Since ICs can be split up easier than the ICs can grab a good marth I see the match as 60:40 but thats at worst.
It's not one of Marth's "easier" match ups, considering other 60:40s that are around.
It's important that stage striking is used effectively. Final Destination and Smashville (one more so than the other) are our natural enemies.
We should be able to win on our counterpicks: Norfair, Rainbow Cruise; and Battlefield and Lylat aren't bad either.
In game we have Dolphin Slash (if theres a platform...) to avoid anything 'dangerous'. It's one of the [high tier] match ups thats we still have to zone with dtilt.
Fairs to split them up; counter for blizzard and squall hammer.
I don't "get" this match up at all really, people who main them in my area either suck or gave up once I got over their initial hurdles/predictable crap. I don't understand how the character ticks, like let's say MK or Wario... I guess they're just that dynamic.. whilst being that dangerous.
Neutral match up is feasible.
Whilst on character traits only we have the advantage... 'mentally' our marth mains struggle with this match up, theres no autopilot here, Marth can't float or air camp, or have a never ending multi hit move to fall back on. It takes real EXPERIENCE in this match up to win it.
this match up is very stage dependant
We're going to win on our counterpick, but we're in for trouble on Smashville.... or if we're stupid to not ban Final Destination (without changing characters...)
I'd prefer the Ice Climbers to get in on this; most Marths all over are pretty split. Including myself.
Neo hates this match up
Kadaj hates this match up
Pierce thinks it's fine
I hate it, because it's STUPID.
Meep and Lain, the two real IC placers have had little to no signifance in West Coast America (I think?) - i.e. Mike, Bardull, etc; and I'm not sure if Hylian even plays ICs anymore to impact Texan marfs.
RAGE MATCH UP.
It's important that stage striking is used effectively. Final Destination and Smashville (one more so than the other) are our natural enemies.
We should be able to win on our counterpicks: Norfair, Rainbow Cruise; and Battlefield and Lylat aren't bad either.
In game we have Dolphin Slash (if theres a platform...) to avoid anything 'dangerous'. It's one of the [high tier] match ups thats we still have to zone with dtilt.
Fairs to split them up; counter for blizzard and squall hammer.
I don't "get" this match up at all really, people who main them in my area either suck or gave up once I got over their initial hurdles/predictable crap. I don't understand how the character ticks, like let's say MK or Wario... I guess they're just that dynamic.. whilst being that dangerous.
Neutral match up is feasible.
Whilst on character traits only we have the advantage... 'mentally' our marth mains struggle with this match up, theres no autopilot here, Marth can't float or air camp, or have a never ending multi hit move to fall back on. It takes real EXPERIENCE in this match up to win it.
this match up is very stage dependant
We're going to win on our counterpick, but we're in for trouble on Smashville.... or if we're stupid to not ban Final Destination (without changing characters...)
I'd prefer the Ice Climbers to get in on this; most Marths all over are pretty split. Including myself.
Neo hates this match up
Kadaj hates this match up
Pierce thinks it's fine
I hate it, because it's STUPID.
Meep and Lain, the two real IC placers have had little to no signifance in West Coast America (I think?) - i.e. Mike, Bardull, etc; and I'm not sure if Hylian even plays ICs anymore to impact Texan marfs.
RAGE MATCH UP.
6/4 ICs favour:
Why does Marth has a 6/4 advantage against the Ice Climbers? He can technically avoid the grab (so can almost every character) but not getting grabbed even once time is highly unrealistic, even for Marth. In fact I'd say that it's more realistic for the ICs to get their 3 grabs. However, this isn't even the reason why I think the ICs win this match-up.
Marth takes way too much damage while trying to avoid getting grabbed. All he has is Fair and Nair - ICs can beat the dtilt by doing an aerial desynched Blizzard over it. So you basically have to stick out your sword constantly and at the same time you have to avoid getting hit by those ice blocks.
How do you wanna play your zoning game then? You have to avoid ice blocks, blizzard (which easily outpriorizes Marths moves) and grabs all at the same time but you're also always forced to approach. If you camp on the stage you have to avoid the Ice Blocks. If you camp on a platform or in the air their uair ***** you - uair deals 22% (more than Snake ftilt). Granted, Marth doesn't usually camp on platforms or in the air but where the hell do you camp then? Marth has no projectile, ICs have one...so while you try to not get grabbed and seperate them (which Marth isn't good at - his grabs and "safe" moves have very little knockback) they can hit you with Ice Blocks and Blizzard - that's a crapload of damage right there and there's little you can do against it.
I think it's 6/4 ICs...
clowsui
Smash Legend
lain's strategy is entirely based off of winning game 1.
DON'T LET THEM WIN GAME 1. HOLY CHRIST.
DON'T LET THEM WIN GAME 1. HOLY CHRIST.
∫unk
Smash Master
another reason why i think legalizing yoshi's and lylat for neutrals again would be good (it also lowers mk's power level on game 1)
the most important thing bardull taught me was, after the first f-air you have to be relentless, split them up, n-air, f-smash, f-air strings, d-tilt off the edge, just keep attacking, go for the f-air gimp on nana then you can drop down and up b stage spike when you know popo will try to save guaranteeing the kill
the easy way to do this is after you send nana far off stage and popo is on stage, is to grab the ledge and keep doing the mikehaze stall (let go immediate forward air horizontal up b regrab the ledge) over and over... but never do the up b that in the off chance they do grab the ledge you get gimped
the most important thing bardull taught me was, after the first f-air you have to be relentless, split them up, n-air, f-smash, f-air strings, d-tilt off the edge, just keep attacking, go for the f-air gimp on nana then you can drop down and up b stage spike when you know popo will try to save guaranteeing the kill
the easy way to do this is after you send nana far off stage and popo is on stage, is to grab the ledge and keep doing the mikehaze stall (let go immediate forward air horizontal up b regrab the ledge) over and over... but never do the up b that in the off chance they do grab the ledge you get gimped
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
Well I have experience with this match-up thanks to my friend Phresh. You definitely want to one and pressure, but do NOT whiff and aerial, as they can catch you in the landing lag, and Popo can hold you long enough for Nana to catch up from ridiculous distances. Dtilt and Fair, defintiely platform camp. A de-sync, approaching blizzard is a pain, but practice with counter should get it.
I HATE this match-up more then anything in Brawl lol.
I HATE this match-up more then anything in Brawl lol.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
Sometimes I think it's good to only hit one of them if you can. For example when you fair them at higher percents, hitting both of them would almost be counter productive. If you just hit one of them, the other is going to run off stage and puts them in a unfavorable position since they can't use their up+b until the other one runs off the stage.
Oh, and if they fthrow fair spike you into the stage, tech it god dammit. Even if they're not pro enough to do the chain throws, they can still de-synch ice block lock you and finish it with a fsmash >> from one end of the stage to another it can be like 60+%
Oh, and if they fthrow fair spike you into the stage, tech it god dammit. Even if they're not pro enough to do the chain throws, they can still de-synch ice block lock you and finish it with a fsmash >> from one end of the stage to another it can be like 60+%
DivineFalchion
Smash Rookie
If you get grabbed (considering these are good ice climbers) that's one stock lost. By that logic, it only takes 3 grabs and it's curtains for you, which is why I wonder if it's truly 60:40. You have to be EXTREMELY cheap in this match-up. If it weren't for their grabs, Marth : Ice Climbers would most likely be 80:20. This is why ICs will spend their entire game trying to get one grab in on you. Even the best players can't keep good ICs away forever, even with perfect spacing.
I've noticed that Ice Climbers will usually just charge at you then spot dodge like crazy just to bait your reaction. Dancing Blade is a no-no in this fight since if they shield it, it's your stock loss. If you try to cancel it, their grab range is decent enough to still catch you. The only way out of the chain grab is to roll tech before the Ice Block hax, maybe even DI-ing the d-throw>f-air thing. But still, this isn't surefire every time.
Honestly, camping the Ice Climbers isn't a bad idea. Everyone always complains about "ooh ice blocks **** me..." A single jab can take care of the Ice Blocks. Some people say that you need to pressure them constantly, but I believe that Ice Climbers WANT you upclose so that they can catch you with landing lag. Now how to you attack them if you can't get up close? Don't do short hops that land in front of them. Nana has a brief lag before she shields once Popo shields, unless your opponent was shielding well in advance (why wear down their shield?) Nana will get hit, and once you hit Nana, you can easily rack up "damage" on her and/or kill her.
What's the point of doin damage on Nana if you can't kill her yet? Well let's say you attack Popo and he shield grabs you but you managed to hit Nana. Well if her "damage" is high enough, she won't return in enough time to chaingrab you with Popo.
But I'm sure you guys already knew this. Split them up, shot hopped double fairs are your friends, and tech/DI any chance you get (in the unfortunate case you get grabbed).
I've noticed that Ice Climbers will usually just charge at you then spot dodge like crazy just to bait your reaction. Dancing Blade is a no-no in this fight since if they shield it, it's your stock loss. If you try to cancel it, their grab range is decent enough to still catch you. The only way out of the chain grab is to roll tech before the Ice Block hax, maybe even DI-ing the d-throw>f-air thing. But still, this isn't surefire every time.
Honestly, camping the Ice Climbers isn't a bad idea. Everyone always complains about "ooh ice blocks **** me..." A single jab can take care of the Ice Blocks. Some people say that you need to pressure them constantly, but I believe that Ice Climbers WANT you upclose so that they can catch you with landing lag. Now how to you attack them if you can't get up close? Don't do short hops that land in front of them. Nana has a brief lag before she shields once Popo shields, unless your opponent was shielding well in advance (why wear down their shield?) Nana will get hit, and once you hit Nana, you can easily rack up "damage" on her and/or kill her.
What's the point of doin damage on Nana if you can't kill her yet? Well let's say you attack Popo and he shield grabs you but you managed to hit Nana. Well if her "damage" is high enough, she won't return in enough time to chaingrab you with Popo.
But I'm sure you guys already knew this. Split them up, shot hopped double fairs are your friends, and tech/DI any chance you get (in the unfortunate case you get grabbed).
BacklashMarth
Smash Lord
I play ICs and even tho im eons away from being Lain i still know that marth is a pain to face. BLIZZARD IS NOT AS SAFE AS IT SEEMS. First of all ICs will want to desync it and the desync can give marth time to get close enough to where a fair will hit if he chooses to throw one out. Also, marth can smack Popo or Nana out of the move anyway even if he does trade hits for it. Another important fact is that ICs have a short grab range meaning they have to get close if they want their KO when marth is spacing appropriately. Even though marth can whiff a fair, ICs can also whiff a grab and eat a tasty DB or even maybe a fsmash to the face. And if the occasion comes up where the ICs get the grab below about 25% then u can still button mash out of it (often marth will hit Nana cuz her shield comes up slower and Popo will get the grab or somthing like that).
About the ice blocks, they arent falco's layzurz. They wont be a huge part of the matchup unless ICs decide to lock you with them.
About the ice blocks, they arent falco's layzurz. They wont be a huge part of the matchup unless ICs decide to lock you with them.
desynched Blizzard is NOT safe. Fair trades hits with it and I think nair beats it. Even if you get hit you'll knock the other out of it. I love full hop fair in this match. Also, never DS unless you're getting saved by BF's top platform or something. Otherwise they can grab you from it. Do not go to RC. I remember (I think) meep saying that it's a bad idea. I do love norfair if it's legal and if not, Yoshi's is a good choice (make sure you know how to fight on slants). You can emergeny DS almost anywhere and the platform should keep you safe. Stage is going to be important here. Just camp and ready to punish everything. Like fear said, I rather hit one of them instead of both of them sometimes. Makes it easier to apply pressure.
C.box
Smash Journeyman
I like doing full hop rising fairs against icies on stages like battlefield and lylat, I never get grabbed doing this because I land on platforms and the most they get is a uair (which can hurt though). I usually follow the platform around in sv and I like norfair and brinstar here... infact alot of stages can be used to fight icies, When you get them offstage don't let up, if they are going low then they will try bellay so aim for popo and avoid nana at all costs, if they try to side b on the stage tipper fsmash them out of it (it works so well) or fair or if they try to side b to the ledge (they can only do this when popo AND nana are together if not then thye cant grab the ledge) Then you can counter, bair, and fair them... I think the edgegaurding game is what will help you win :/, Fun fact is that shield breaker can go throw blizzard :D but yeah not very useful.... Dancing blade can be used to stall your fall to avoid stuff like uair .. I think db1 is safe on block idk... if it is we could just use it and if it hits and shiled or not he can either A. if it hits the shielf, stop or B. if it hits popo then we can just continue the combo.. i'm not sure on that. Also there is a 6 frame difference between nana and popo with dancing blade's 4 frame attack speed and how a powershield needs to be activated in 3 frames of the attack. That leaves only one frame for a powershield
so dancing blade would hit nana either way :/ I think it could be 55:45 marth Just ban fd.
so dancing blade would hit nana either way :/ I think it could be 55:45 marth Just ban fd.
En.Ee.Oh
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 2,527
Yes... and by yes... I mean no >_>6/4 ICs favour:
Marth clearly wins 60/40 LOL
D-tilt + counter > IC's approaches
their sliding powershield doesn't even help their abysmal grab range against down tilt, and you can counter the blizzard or air dodge in and up-b, good gamed
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
I agree with legalizing it, it's controversial, but these stages aren't as ******** as some people make them out to be (okay, maybe lylat, but not really).
ICs are tough, lots of gay space camping and zoning. Sounds like drugs lol
ChaosKnight
Smash Master
so did i :/
seemingly whenever gheb posts he has to in some way degrade Marth.
seemingly whenever gheb posts he has to in some way degrade Marth.
C.box
Smash Journeyman
Also the fact that you can jab or dtilt the iceblocks.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
o_o that's a funky idea. Kinda cool. Thanks for the tip. ^_^
JustNoOne
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2008
- Messages
- 1,537
It's hard with to grab you Marths if you keep on moving onto platforms. I think our Blizzard has equal range to your Fsmash... just a guess here so mehh.
I give it a 50-50, you guys can avoid us if you just pick the right map and use platforms well.
I give it a 50-50, you guys can avoid us if you just pick the right map and use platforms well.
You call it "degrading".
I call it being realistic. Nobody has to agree with me but I'm conviced that the ICs win. It's got nothing to do with me thinking that Marth boards are full of delusional bias.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
Well, if a Smart IC plays a smart Marth ...
and if they both use the same amount of common sense....
And both posses the same match up exp...
Marth is gonna win most of the time.
and if they both use the same amount of common sense....
And both posses the same match up exp...
Marth is gonna win most of the time.
Tari
Smash Apprentice
I've never had to face any really good ICs in my so far, short brawl career, but I do know a few things. Space yourself, dtilt, and most importantly, don't get grabbed. >_>;
And if possible, split them up?
And if possible, split them up?
ChaosKnight
Smash Master
You call it "degrading".
I call it being realistic. Nobody has to agree with me but I'm conviced that the ICs win. It's got nothing to do with me thinking that Marth boards are full of delusional bias.
maybe you just dont know how to fight icies at all and you arent a good player
∫unk
Smash Master
Tari I wouldn't d-tilt so much.... focus on f-air
LOL ck
LOL ck
Tari
Smash Apprentice
Why not d-tilt? And would nairs be useful as well?
I consider myself a bad player actually. However, that doesn't mean that I can't judge a match-up...kadaj also thinks it's in ICs favour last time I checked...maybe you just dont know how to fight icies at all and you arent a good player
I'd rather have good counter arguments to my points than strawmen like "i loled".
Also, accusing me of "degrading" Marth just because I disagree with the consensus is pretty ridiculous. I remember that back in the day I used to say that D3 has the advantage, when everybody else said it's even. People said I was degranding Marth back then and now it's pretty much established that D3 beats Marth. Me sucking at this game has little to do with it.
ChaosKnight
Smash Master
actually you being bad at the game has alot to do with your viewpoint :x
BarDulL
Town Vampire
marth beats ICs, just from personal experience in fighting fly amanita/michael hey.You call it "degrading".
I call it being realistic. Nobody has to agree with me but I'm conviced that the ICs win. It's got nothing to do with me thinking that Marth boards are full of delusional bias.
edit: also, although pretty much everyone thinks d3 beats marth, i think its one of the closest match ups marth has.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
I suppose it depends on how much your general experience in brawl influences what you put into posts on SWF. Gheb makes a convincing argument about how skill doesn't effect opinions.
You can know everything about this game and still be crappy. Your skill depends on your time put into the game, as well as tournament experience. And you can still get the view point of the general tourney-goer consensus and still contradict them in a legit fashion. You just need the knowledge to back yourself up and you can get that here on SWF.
I don't know Gheb that well, but I do know that he isn't degrading Marth if he has a different view point on a certain match up. I would like people to elaborate though instead of barbarically arguing others on how credible their input is. I wanna see both sides of the issue on the match up. Now that someone feels its in IC's favor, I wanna see their side two.
But I still believe that the match up is in Marth's favor. But I could swing either way.
You can know everything about this game and still be crappy. Your skill depends on your time put into the game, as well as tournament experience. And you can still get the view point of the general tourney-goer consensus and still contradict them in a legit fashion. You just need the knowledge to back yourself up and you can get that here on SWF.
I don't know Gheb that well, but I do know that he isn't degrading Marth if he has a different view point on a certain match up. I would like people to elaborate though instead of barbarically arguing others on how credible their input is. I wanna see both sides of the issue on the match up. Now that someone feels its in IC's favor, I wanna see their side two.
But I still believe that the match up is in Marth's favor. But I could swing either way.
Me and pierce think it's 55 45.
And yes, Gheb has been going on a tirade against Marth since he joined SWF. According to him he should probably be mid tier. I don't mind him having a different view point, I'd just rather him bring up better points that can actually support the ratios he gives : /
And yes, Gheb has been going on a tirade against Marth since he joined SWF. According to him he should probably be mid tier. I don't mind him having a different view point, I'd just rather him bring up better points that can actually support the ratios he gives : /
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
Maybe his view points have been a bit extreme, but any input regarding the match up at hand should be appreciated if not considered.
Let's just end the fight. We sound like the Falcon boards.
I think I would agree with 55:45. But that is close enough for the game to be swung either way.
I think that on a neutral stage you would have some serious issues with the chain grab, obviously. In this match up either side would like a gimp to make them +1. Their CG make them do that.
But anything that keeps you mobile will help you avoid the CG unless you are stupid. I think a good aerial game is in order. Spacing f-airs should help. And anything that keeps you out of their grab range or keeps them in the air.
Let's just end the fight. We sound like the Falcon boards.
I think I would agree with 55:45. But that is close enough for the game to be swung either way.
I think that on a neutral stage you would have some serious issues with the chain grab, obviously. In this match up either side would like a gimp to make them +1. Their CG make them do that.
But anything that keeps you mobile will help you avoid the CG unless you are stupid. I think a good aerial game is in order. Spacing f-airs should help. And anything that keeps you out of their grab range or keeps them in the air.
Punishment Divine
Smash Champion
Gheb practically said
"Marth can get grabbed and lose"
But wait...!
So can OTHER characters!
Please use MEAT if you're going to suggest an opinion that goes against the masses, not just common knowledge.
The only meat in his post was wrong, and that's the 2 paragraphs saying why Blizzard beats Marth when we can, in fact, get through the Blizzard pretty easily. I mean if Marth of ALL characters got ***** by the blizzard, their only negative matchups might be Snake and MK, which we know to not be true.
"Marth can get grabbed and lose"
But wait...!
So can OTHER characters!
Please use MEAT if you're going to suggest an opinion that goes against the masses, not just common knowledge.
The only meat in his post was wrong, and that's the 2 paragraphs saying why Blizzard beats Marth when we can, in fact, get through the Blizzard pretty easily. I mean if Marth of ALL characters got ***** by the blizzard, their only negative matchups might be Snake and MK, which we know to not be true.
DivineFalchion
Smash Rookie
Hey does anyone know if you can Up SDI the Icies U-air? 22 damage seems like a hell of a lot according to Gheb but I don't quite remember if it's a multihit attack (I think it is). Also, f-air trades hits with blizzard. It's like 2% damage for you (if you perfectly exchange hits) and 12% for them. What's the big deal about taking a little damage from moves like this anyway? Sure you want to keep yourself as low damage as possible so there's a greater chance of them messing up the CG series before that kill range of 100%, but the Icies have terrible range on their kill moves against Marth outside of grabs.
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
Do you guys think Orpheon is a good CP for this matchup?
I use it and it works pretty well, I don't know of any big reason not to use it.
I use it and it works pretty well, I don't know of any big reason not to use it.
C.box
Smash Journeyman
I guess uair could be considered a multihit move but it is basically popo and nana using u air which is why it does so much damage so maybe you could sdi the first hit (popo's) and get away from nana's hit :/ Also if an ice climber tries to cg to spike you jj wolf showed me a video about what you can do about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12YPpL8lung lol...
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
If it work anything like Fox's Melee Uair (I'm not sure if his Brawl Uair is the same anymore) then it should be SDiable.
TRA
Smash Journeyman
I think the match is in Marth's favor. Retreating with fair is just too good when it comes to avoiding grabs and putting on pressure. Jabs and D-tilts take care of ice blocks. Blizzard leaves them vulnerable if they dont hit you with it, and can be DI'd and sometimes DS'd out of. And IC are easy to gimp! I hope I'm not telling you guys something new when I say that if you're on the ledge when they use their Up B to recover, Nana just throws Popo onto the stage, and they both free fall after that--Nana usually dies if you stay on the ledge, or is easy to hit away from Popo at this point. If you're on the ledge and they use Side B to recover vertically, just hit them out of it or counter.
Time
Runs
Away
Time
Runs
Away
Punishment Divine
Smash Champion
Also please don't think that just because you pick Rainbow Cruise, you'll win. I spent a lot of APEX watching MeEp **** people on the stage, they're actually pretty good on that stage.
DivineFalchion
Smash Rookie
In my opinion, a stage like Brinstar would deal the ultimate **** to ICs. The stage is so funky there's no hope of getting a consistant d-throw>fair>ice block combo going. It's also more difficult for Nana to help dribble Marth (throw into throw into throw lol). You have an advantage in this matchup but to seal the deal, make sure you win the first game.