Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Diddy Kong

Kataefi · Jun 30, 2009

Matchup Rediscussion: Diddy Kong
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Zelda vs Diddy Kong

- What to know about this matchup...

Bananas, bananas, bananas! Separate Diddy from his bananas as much as possible. This means taking a banana for yourself and leaving him with just one, or simply throwing both bananas off stage given the chance. Diddy is more manageable the less banana control he has. Weakening his control is normally easier said than done.

Don't rely on Nayru's. Diddy can bait better than you; try not to use Nayru's prematurely due to its punishing cooldown. Never truly rely on this reflector as a good support tool. However, with good reads it can become useful at times. For example if you have one banana and Diddy has the other, baiting him into throwing it at you and a good read using Nayru's can grant you the possession of both bananas on stage.

With one banana in hand, you have a few extra options. Glide tossing is a very handy tool giving Zelda 2 glide toss lengths - standard and extremely long. Both depend on the timing of the glide toss. You cannot always followup with a glide tossed banana due to Zelda's slow ground movement, but if you successfully followup, use the most damaging option available such as Dtilt setups, grabs or smash attacks. OoS bananas are also good if he happens to attack your shield.

Diddy will make an advancement usually when 2 bananas are in place. His most damaging tactics come into play with double bananas. Try not to 'lag' with whiffed smashes and nayru's. Counter this by placing pressure on him as he pulls out bananas - he is going to have to pull them out as bananas disappear. This is a great opportunity to harass with Din's or approach to stay near him.

Be careful of OoS bananas from him. Don't attack his shield when he has one in hand. He can punish everything Zelda does on shield with an OoS banana. If you absolutely have to approach him in this situation, go for a grab if he's conditioned to shield, or go for a jab due to its low cooldown.

Try to apply pressure as he recovers. His rocket barrels are very susceptible to Din's Fire and the spike. A simple sourspot can be threatening enough for him. His monkey flip is great in priority but is beaten out by Zelda's Utilt and Fsmash, so should he take to the stage in this way and is in range, use these options. From afar, it's best to harass with Din's Fire.

At kill percents, he will try setups from a banana. Fsmash and Dsmash are his best killiing moves; he can also use Fair as well as other aerials but these kill slightly later. Zelda has a long roll, giving her an opportunity to escape kill setups from a banana. You can SDI his Fsmash on hit, so learn this and also anticipate this well.

- Useful Information...

Do you know how to properly catch bananas? SH airdodges catch bananas very easily as do aerials. Nair and Fair the most notable aerials for catching them. A banana on the ground can be caught at Dtilt range with a Dtilt, or at jab range with a jab. Dash attack can also be used to get one and attack simultaneously.

You can Fsmash whilst holding a banana. Pick up a banana and hold down A. Everytime you now press the C-Stick forward you will charge an Fsmash. Let go of A to release the Fsmash, then simply hold A again quickly to still attack with a banana in hand.

You can perform aerials whilst holding a banana. Simply Z drop the banana in hand and perform a falling aerial immediately to catch it.

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Jun 30, 2009

it's a rather stage dependent matchup I suppose. He can **** if he gets momentum from nanners, but otherwise the little guy's not really especially threatening. It's a very winable match-up despite the teir difference.

GodAtHand · Jun 30, 2009

Zelda's reflector is not good enough to put a good Diddy at bay. You should depend on catching the bananas and using them to your advantage. Zeldas glide toss is incredible and you should use that to your advantage... and since Diddy is light you should hopefully be killing him at low percents.

Down thrown banana to lightning kick = fancy looking win!

-Mars- · Jun 30, 2009

I don't enjoy this matchup at all. This matchup is always extremely tedious and it try's your patience. I get gimped by bananas a lot, although I think Zelda absolutely ***** Diddy's recovery on the other side. I use SH Nair a lot in this matchup....I really don't like just standing on the ground letting Diddy pick me apart.

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Jul 1, 2009

GodAtHand said:
Zelda's reflector is not good enough to put a good Diddy at bay. You should depend on catching the bananas and using them to your advantage. Zeldas glide toss is incredible and you should use that to your advantage... and since Diddy is light you should hopefully be killing him at low percents.

Down thrown banana to lightning kick = fancy looking win!

When is zelda's reflector NORMALLY a good way to deal with projectlies? :laugh:

I mean, it's good if he tries to glide toss into you since you'll gain posession of the banana and he'll eat nayru's to the face, but otherwise be careful with it.

Like Mars said, Diddy is actually someone we can brutalize off the stage. It's so uncommon for zelda, but it's true.

Gnes · Jul 2, 2009

In all honesty i dont know what to say about this matchup except for things "in theory". Ive never played a good zelda :/.

Hmm...ill think about something to say later on...as of now im pretty much thinking its around 55-45 considering zeldas horrible recovery options.

Kataefi · Jul 7, 2009

Surely there must be someone with good experience in this matchup >.<

Are there any cautious options she can use against diddy's camp game?

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Jul 7, 2009

if the stage is big enough... Iunno... din's at him? Assuming he's not that stupid though, the trick is to not let him camp. (as best you can at least)

sniperworm · Jul 7, 2009

The key to this matchup is knowing how to handle items and using that knowledge to separate Diddy from his bananas. Diddy is managable if you can keep him from wrecking you with nanners.

Don't pick up Diddy's banana's with attacks unless you're sure they'll hit him (or that he can't punish you). Air dodge, Z-catch, or Nair them in the air, just pick them up if they're on the ground, and airdodge or Nair to grab them if you're going to land on one.

In general, unless you're comfortable with using bananas, don't throw them back at Diddy if you manage to grab one. Just toss them off the edge or into the air so he can't get them back as easily. If you're not good at catching nanners, shield them first, jump OoS, and then catch them with whatever you feel is appropriate (remember that you can throw them right away if you catch it with an air dodge). You can still do aerials with a banana (just Z drop it first and immediately use your aerial to catch the banana again) and Fsmash (hold A when you pick up the banana and use the C-stick to smash) with one too so don't feel like you need to immediately throw it.

Zelda's glide toss goes really far very quickly, but other than being a surprise move it really isn't all that useful.

Diddy's bananas will cut right through Zelda's "wall" of transcendant priority so be wary of this. That being said, Diddy will have difficulty breaking through her defenses if he somehow finds himself without bananas.

I don't really mention Diddy camping against Zelda because he generally will be coming to you once he gets out his second banana. Since Diddy is strongest when he has two bananas under his control (but he can't keep two out indefinitely since one will eventually disappear), he'll definitely make a move once he has two of them out. Zelda's not good at controlling Diddy, so this scenario will happen many times during a game and you'll just have to find ways to deal with it.

sasook · Jul 7, 2009

How about raiding the Zelda chat and forcing Ninjalink to tell us how this matchup goes, from both ends. lol

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Jul 7, 2009

Glide Toss -> Usmash ***** so many things. And Fsmash works too.

with the lingering hitboxes, those things flying at you can really be surprising and hard to avoid.

And if he's camping near the edge, Glide Toss -> Dsmash can be devestating.

powuh_of_PIE · Jul 8, 2009

Zelda's glide toss has two distances with two different timings anyway - one is the obscenely long one and the other is similar to Diddy's length. I find the latter helpful in this matchup for stringing short GT --> dash attack or Dsmash. GT to Dtilt is ****, but tough to do.

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Jul 8, 2009

powuh_of_PIE said:
Zelda's glide toss has two distances with two different timings anyway - one is the obscenely long one and the other is similar to Diddy's length. I find the latter helpful in this matchup for stringing short GT --> dash attack or Dsmash. GT to Dtilt is ****, but tough to do.

like most GT follow ups, it's easier if the foe is backed to the edge of the stage.

MdrnDayMercutio · Jul 16, 2009

When you learn this match up I think it's even or in Zelda's favour. Naryu's is only really useful when you start of have a good read on the Diddy.

If you aren't comfy with bananas, as said above, just throw them up while moving. Makes it harder to keep track of them for Diddy and makes it take longer for him to regain his two banana set up.

If he's far away, has no banana's out just start spamming Dins. The act of pulling a banana is kinda long and you'll usually get one in and just generally make his life harder.

PAY ATTENTION TO HIS HABITS. Alot of Diddys suck at mixing it up in mid level play, and even sometimes at higher levels. Zelda's arials are incredibly **** and can net you some amazing kills if you just learn to predict him.(I can't tell you how many times I've died to Riot's UAir cause I was too lazy to think about what I was doing).

zeldspazz · Jul 22, 2009

Well Ill give my 2 cents.

I love this matchup, I never really have a hard time with Diddy's.

Try to predict the nanners, usually they'll get this idea that our smashes with hit them before they throw their nanner, so they throw from a medium distance. NL can work very well if you can predict it, and it usually can reflect back and hit them if they are close enough. Zelda has such a huge roll distance too, that if you trip, you may be able to roll away before they punish. As already srared, it might not be a good idea to use the nanners, cus our ground speed is very slow, so you probably cant punish well. Just throw them off the stage, or glide toss since Zelda's distance is massive for this. Really any smash out of glide toss is very good.

Also, his recovery move isnt excellent and can be easy to edgehog if the going from a pure vertical angle, and they can be hit out of it for massive lag where they might not be able to recover again. Din's Fire his *** when he tries to recover with his up-b. Dont go off the stage too much though, especially before he uses his side-b, this can be a gtfo move and if he latches on can kill our meteor you.

Look out for his dash attack->utilt/usmash. He has a hard time killing, so this is good since Zelda is so light. His Ground speed by far surpasses ours, so space correctly. Watch for attempted side-bs, and punish accordingly. LKs are hard because of how short he is, plus he has fast aerials, so dont go into the air much.

Try recovering from a distance, cus he has a fairly good spike that can ruin Zelda's recovery. Aiming for on the stage is ok, since he doesnt really have a useful move to punish with except he might grab/nanner you when you land.

This is just my experience fighting Diddy's

Le_THieN · Jul 22, 2009

Just droppin' by at Kataefi's kind request:

Zelda finds herself at a distinct disadvantage on multiple fronts in this match-up: average ground speed, mediocre horizontal and vertical aerial movement, significant amount of cool-down on many of her attacks, and a linear and predictable recovery. Her only real strength in this match-up is her general KO superiority, but even those become calculated risks.

Since Diddy outclasses Zelda in so many ways, her primary posture in this match-up is mostly going to be defensive. None of her KO attacks are safe against Diddy's shield, especially with the plethora of options he gains once he puts one up. It's imperative for Zelda's exploitation of the cool-down on some of Diddy's moves to be measured and on point; she trades in the ability to string together attacks in a reliable follow-up for moderate damage output and knock-back, so she will find herself in a position where her own attacks are resetting both her and her opponent's stance back to neutral.

By contrast, Diddy Kong easily eclipses his own inability to reliable kill by being able to safely and swiftly rack up damage after exploiting one instance of vulnerability.

Other notes:

Pressuring Diddy's shield with jab is, of course, quite reliable, and should be used to cover cool-down on your attacks against an approaching Diddy whenever possible.
At maximum range, Zelda's F-air and B-air slightly out-ranges Diddy's F-air, although I would not hinge the match-up on this minor tidbit as a turning point in the match-up.
Some of Diddy's attacks either move or extend his collision boxes; none of them are disjointed. With somewhat lenient timing, all of these can be countered by Naryu's Love.
With great anticipation, Zelda can actually out-prioritize Monkey Flip with F-tilt or U-tilt.
The lingering hit-box on Diddy Kong's Monkey Kick can pass through Din's Fire.
Many characters Diddy goes up against have glide tosses that are comparable or even superior in length. However, all of them lack Diddy's versatility and general ability to micromanage items, so a glide toss becomes fairly obvious once these characters gain possession of a banana peel. Glide-tossing into a smash attack is everyone's played-out go-to strategy, so do your best to not telegraph your intents.

Against a character like Diddy, minor mistakes like this become costly over the course of a match, and this is the unfortunate and undeniable reality of the match-up, simply due to the lengthy nature of Zelda's cool-down on her moves. Excluding immeasurable variables like "mind games" and "being able to mix it up," there is absolutely no conceivable way this is in Zelda's favor, nor is it an even match-up. As with all match-ups though, there are small things you can do to make a disadvantaged face-off more tolerable, but Zelda will inevitably have to work much harder than Diddy Kong to net the win.

zeldspazz · Jul 22, 2009

Le_THieN average ground speed [COLOR=darkred said:
Try third slowest, her ground speed is uber suxxers[/color]

mediocre horizontal and vertical aerial movement She's actually quite high in aerial movement speed, compared to the cast as a whole.

significant amount of cool-down on many of her attacks, and a linear and predictable recovery. Her only real strength in this match-up is her general KO superiority, but even those become calculated risks.

Since Diddy outclasses Zelda in so many ways, her primary posture in this match-up is mostly going to be defensive. None of her KO attacks are safe against Diddy's shield, especially with the plethora of options he gains once he puts one up. It's imperative for Zelda's exploitation of the cool-down on some of Diddy's moves to be measured and on point; she trades in the ability to string together attacks in a reliable follow-up for moderate damage output and knock-back, so she will find herself in a position where her own attacks are resetting both her and her opponent's stance back to neutral.

By contrast, Diddy Kong easily eclipses his own inability to reliable kill by being able to safely and swiftly rack up damage after exploiting one instance of vulnerability.

Other notes:

Pressuring Diddy's shield with jab is, of course, quite reliable, and should be used to cover cool-down on your attacks against an approaching Diddy whenever possible. Interesting

At maximum range, Zelda's F-air and B-air slightly out-ranges Diddy's F-air, although I would not hinge the match-up on this minor tidbit as a turning point in the match-up. I wouldnt fight diddy in the air anyway to be honest.

Some of Diddy's attacks either move or extend his collision boxes; none of them are disjointed. With somewhat lenient timing, all of these can be countered by Naryu's Love. Love the Love

With great anticipation, Zelda can actually out-prioritize Monkey Flip with F-tilt or U-tilt.

The lingering hit-box on Diddy Kong's Monkey Kick can pass through Din's Fire. What doesnt go through Din's.....

Many characters Diddy goes up against have glide tosses that are comparable or even superior in length. However, all of them lack Diddy's versatility and general ability to micromanage items, so a glide toss becomes fairly obvious once these characters gain possession of a banana peel. Glide-tossing into a smash attack is everyone's played-out go-to strategy, so do your best to not telegraph your intents. Glide tossing is actually very affective, and Zelda has 2 distances when she glide tosses to mix it up a bit and be less predictable. D-smash out of glide toss is wonderful, and her other smashes work excellent too.

Against a character like Diddy, minor mistakes like this become costly over the course of a match, and this is the unfortunate and undeniable reality of the match-up, simply due to the lengthy nature of Zelda's cool-down on her moves. Excluding immeasurable variables like "mind games" and "being able to mix it up," there is absolutely no conceivable way this is in Zelda's favor, nor is it an even match-up. As with all match-ups though, there are small things you can do to make a disadvantaged face-off more tolerable, but Zelda will inevitably have to work much harder than Diddy Kong to net the win. Hmmm, this is where I disagree, I was thinking even or 55:45 in Zelda's favor.

My comments in red. I disagree with a few things, but you probably know better than I do. :dizzy:

ADHD · Jul 22, 2009

I've played NL's and Snakeee's Zelda, and she seems to have trouble withstanding diddy's pressure game. She has no reliable way to get in diddy's face and therefor that is a massive disadvantage against diddy. I'd say she loses 40-60 or 45-55.

Le_THieN · Jul 22, 2009

Yeah, sorry, I'm still with ADHD on this one. Zelda is actually one of my secondaries (and I have used her in tournament), and I've had a bit of practice with this match-up from both sides myself. The only thing you directly disagreed with was that she, according to you, actually has good aerial movement, but I was strictly only comparing it to Diddy's. Other than that, you've offered no evidence to support your claim that this is in Zelda's favor. How can she possibly have the advantage in the face of having obscene lag on all of her attacks, a bad recovery and no reliable zoning tools once Diddy rushes her down from mid-range?

Honestly, I don't even think it's that close.

zeldspazz · Jul 22, 2009

Yeah I know Lethien, which is why I said you probably know better than me, cus you're...like...better? I just never have problems with Diddy's I face

GodAtHand · Jul 22, 2009

Maybe Ace should sneak-attack back in here. This matchup is close to even. I don't like arguing though so do as you wish.

Kataefi · Jul 22, 2009

Riot any chance you can elaborate - how would you deal with a campy diddy that really puts the pressure on and baits so well?

And how do we edgeguard him effectively?

I'd love to see some recorded matches of this matchup, I remember Villi had some a while ago but he took them all down.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Jul 22, 2009

Kataefi said:
Riot any chance you can elaborate - how would you deal with a campy diddy that really puts the pressure on and baits so well?

And how do we edgeguard him effectively?

I'd love to see some recorded matches of this matchup, I remember Villi had some a while ago but he took them all down.

Shoot dins at him ?

Le_THieN said:
Just droppin' by at Kataefi's kind request:

Zelda finds herself at a distinct disadvantage on multiple fronts in this match-up: average ground speed, mediocre horizontal and vertical aerial movement, significant amount of cool-down on many of her attacks, and a linear and predictable recovery. Her only real strength in this match-up is her general KO superiority, but even those become calculated risks.

Since Diddy outclasses Zelda in so many ways, her primary posture in this match-up is mostly going to be defensive. None of her KO attacks are safe against Diddy's shield, especially with the plethora of options he gains once he puts one up. It's imperative for Zelda's exploitation of the cool-down on some of Diddy's moves to be measured and on point; she trades in the ability to string together attacks in a reliable follow-up for moderate damage output and knock-back, so she will find herself in a position where her own attacks are resetting both her and her opponent's stance back to neutral.

By contrast, Diddy Kong easily eclipses his own inability to reliable kill by being able to safely and swiftly rack up damage after exploiting one instance of vulnerability.

Other notes:

Pressuring Diddy's shield with jab is, of course, quite reliable, and should be used to cover cool-down on your attacks against an approaching Diddy whenever possible.

At maximum range, Zelda's F-air and B-air slightly out-ranges Diddy's F-air, although I would not hinge the match-up on this minor tidbit as a turning point in the match-up.

Some of Diddy's attacks either move or extend his collision boxes; none of them are disjointed. With somewhat lenient timing, all of these can be countered by Naryu's Love.

With great anticipation, Zelda can actually out-prioritize Monkey Flip with F-tilt or U-tilt.

The lingering hit-box on Diddy Kong's Monkey Kick can pass through Din's Fire.

Many characters Diddy goes up against have glide tosses that are comparable or even superior in length. However, all of them lack Diddy's versatility and general ability to micromanage items, so a glide toss becomes fairly obvious once these characters gain possession of a banana peel. Glide-tossing into a smash attack is everyone's played-out go-to strategy, so do your best to not telegraph your intents.

Against a character like Diddy, minor mistakes like this become costly over the course of a match, and this is the unfortunate and undeniable reality of the match-up, simply due to the lengthy nature of Zelda's cool-down on her moves. Excluding immeasurable variables like "mind games" and "being able to mix it up," there is absolutely no conceivable way this is in Zelda's favor, nor is it an even match-up. As with all match-ups though, there are small things you can do to make a disadvantaged face-off more tolerable, but Zelda will inevitably have to work much harder than Diddy Kong to net the win.

I don't think she's at a distinct disavdantage. Your saying something that Diddy has over most of the cast and trying to apply it Zelda to make the match up seem worse than it is. Zelda needs to play smart part of playing smart is seperating diddy from his nana's. It diddy doesn't have a nana in hand he is at very big disadvantage. I could be mistaken but I think NL reflects nana's and causes diddy to trip on. Or you he will dash attack to pick up nana and Zelda dash attack is pretty **** good. Din fires disrupts his up B something fierce. I like have you're like ah man I'll just eat an utilt or ftilt.

The match up is close it may be even or slightly in diddy's favor. Diddy nana game could put a lot of pressure on Zelda the same way it does the whole cast but it's not something that will just Shut her down as opposed to a heavyweight who get's really screwed by things like that. Zelda KO potential is a huge factor. So the match up basically goes IMO how well Diddy controls the stage with his nana's if zelda can get around that and punish him. Zelda has to be aware where the nanas are at and how many are on stage the more the worse it is for Zelda.

sniperworm · Jul 22, 2009

Le_THieN said:
Yeah, sorry, I'm still with ADHD on this one. Zelda is actually one of my secondaries (and I have used her in tournament), and I've had a bit of practice with this match-up from both sides myself. The only thing you directly disagreed with was that she, according to you, actually has good aerial movement, but I was strictly only comparing it to Diddy's. Other than that, you've offered no evidence to support your claim that this is in Zelda's favor. How can she possibly have the advantage in the face of having obscene lag on all of her attacks, a bad recovery and no reliable zoning tools once Diddy rushes her down from mid-range?

Honestly, I don't even think it's that close.

This man definitely seems to know what's up.

On a side, ever-so-slightly related note, why is it that getting hit in the head with a banana peel causes tripping? Sakurai you silly man...

zeldspazz · Jul 22, 2009

sniperworm said:
This man definitely seems to know what's up.

On a side, ever-so-slightly related note, why is it that getting hit in the head with a banana peel causes tripping? Sakurai you silly man...

^^ I lol'd

sasook · Jul 22, 2009

I have to go with what ADHD and Le_Thien said, tbh. I dunno much about Zelda, but on paper, to me it looks like 60:40 Diddy at least.

Le_THieN · Jul 22, 2009

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:
I don't think she's at a distinct disavdantage. Your saying something that Diddy has over most of the cast and trying to apply it Zelda to make the match up seem worse than it is. Zelda needs to play smart part of playing smart is seperating diddy from his nana's. It diddy doesn't have a nana in hand he is at very big disadvantage. I could be mistaken but I think NL reflects nana's and causes diddy to trip on. Or you he will dash attack to pick up nana and Zelda dash attack is pretty **** good. Din fires disrupts his up B something fierce. I like have you're like ah man I'll just eat an utilt or ftilt.

The problem with the way people currently discuss and analyze match-ups in these types of threads is that most people adopt exactly this sort of linear approach to the match-up. We're not evaluating each character's respective moves pound for pound, because that tends to be one of the least important aspects of a match-up.

It just so happens that Zelda vs. Diddy Kong is perfect in illustrating this: in this match-up, Zelda is matchless when you consider the sheer number of attacks she boasts with both excellent knock-back and extraordinary KO power. In fact, with the exception of her jab, N-air and D-tilt, all of her moves can net her kills. That's a total of 11 different options she can fall back on, which is an extensive amount of variety.

If we were to look at match-ups strictly on a move-by-move basis, Zelda would have the majority of the cast beat out.

However, these are not points that match-up advantages exclusively pivot on. We have to look at the entire package - amount of start-up and cool-down frames, priority, ground and air speed, stock longevity, move set versatility, etc. - in order to accurately assess something as subjective as a match-up favor.

At the end of the day, I believe this specific match-up turns on how well Diddy can maximize damage once he creates an opening from punishing the cool-down on any of Zelda's various attacks (this includes drawing out the lag on obvious counterattack measures like Naryu's Love, whiffed smashes, etc.). She only has one viable pressure option over long distances (Din's Fire) and a handful of pressure options in close quarters in the form of her smashes and D-tilt; at mid-range, a distance right outside of her melee attacks, but not far enough for her to safely pressure with Din's Fire, she has absolutely no answer. At this range, it's just a matter of Diddy forcing Zelda into a predictable defensive posture and baiting an opening.

On a related note: a quick search on YouTube yields a couple of matches of a Diddy Kong I have never heard of before convincingly beating DarkMusician both times.

GodAtHand · Jul 22, 2009

I'm just going to throw out tidbits.

- Diddy needs bananas. Zelda is pretty good at taking control of bananas, not because of Nayru's, but simply because her dash attack picks them up like thats what it was made for.

- Once you have a banana you can keep it if you want to. What is Diddy gonna do with just one banana? Not too much... You can ran run away with said banana and camp with Din's.

- Glide toss to smash may be predicted by the Diddy... but when your glide toss is awesome and your smash sucks people in and has multiple hits its worth it.

- At 30 or so percent use the banana for a simple trip and set up for dtilt lock to dsmash. (one way to do this is to use Zelda's farther reaching glide toss and turn around while she is flying past him and begin Dtilting.) Now Diddy is at around 70 or so percent... Almost killing percents for Zelda!

- Diddy needs bananas... like I said before. That means he is going to have pull out the bananas, keep this in mind and you can get at the worst a free Din's fire, at the best you can get a lightning kick or up air and depending on what percent Diddy could very well be dead.

- At low percents Diddy might want to mess with you while you are in the air, but once he gets close to 100% he is going to stop, he doesn't have the speed, disjoint, or priority to warrant messing with you at that point... remember that.

- Diddy has a pretty good recovery, if he is not dead he can usually make it back to the stage. Din's IS good at this point, but spiking him is good to if he not expecting it. A lot of mayhem can come to Diddy when he is not under stage control.

- Once Diddy is off the stage you can use this as an opportunity to get rid of his bananas or keep them for yourself. Now of course he has to pull them out again and you can go for the kill.

I might have more eventually but for now I am done.

In all honesty I don't see what Diddy in particular has on Zelda to make this a counter, but he is simply a good enough character for this to be 45-55 Diddy.

MdrnDayMercutio · Jul 22, 2009

I tend to think it's even...

But I suck at arguing this... I'm also not a great Diddy...

::shrug::

Alot of what's been said makes sense on both sides, and i'm really not sure at this point.

Le_THieN · Jul 23, 2009

@ GodAtHand:

I don't think it's feasible for you to admit that you don't know anything about the Diddy Kong match-up (or that you can't even figure out how he could possibly have the advantage) and then turn around and offer baseless theory-craft to fill in your gaps in knowledge. Even if you never conceded to not really knowing much about this particular topic, your suggestions more or less betray that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Some brief rebuttals:

Glide-toss > pivot D-tilt lock > D-smash for 40+%? In my part of the region, D-tilt locking became useless after the second D-tilt when people figured out how to SDI...which was approximately 13 years ago.
Similarly, Zelda's F-smash is one of the easiest moves in the game to SDI.
I don't have the exact frame data, but I'm nearly 100% certain that a Zelda reacting to a Diddy Kong doing retreating banana peel pulls at virtually any distance with, of all things, Din's Fire is going to be at a frame disadvantage.

I don't feel very compelled to dismantle the rest of your points although I felt like quoting one of your passages in the following:

GodAtHand said:
- At low percents Diddy might want to mess with you while you are in the air, but once he gets close to 100% he is going to stop, he doesn't have the speed, disjoint, or priority to warrant messing with you at that point... remember that.

mostly because I'm confused at how something so nonsensical can sound so elegant.

GodAtHand · Jul 23, 2009

So listing what I ACTUALLY do in the matchup to secure me the win is theory-craft? It appears I have misunderstood that word for some time.

I was simply pointing out that at higher percents Diddy won't want to mess with you in the air. It is like playing russian roulette, there is a good chance for him to die.

Diddy probably does have the advantage on Zelda, I was just telling people why it is not as terrible as others previously made it sound.

Your pompous ignorant internet arguing totally made you seem super cool btw. No wonder so many people are quitting smash. You spent more time trying to pt me down than argue the matchup. congratz!... your an official douche.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Jul 23, 2009

Le_THieN said:
The problem with the way people currently discuss and analyze match-ups in these types of threads is that most people adopt exactly this sort of linear approach to the match-up. We're not evaluating each character's respective moves pound for pound, because that tends to be one of the least important aspects of a match-up.

It just so happens that Zelda vs. Diddy Kong is perfect in illustrating this: in this match-up, Zelda is matchless when you consider the sheer number of attacks she boasts with both excellent knock-back and extraordinary KO power. In fact, with the exception of her jab, N-air and D-tilt, all of her moves can net her kills. That's a total of 11 different options she can fall back on, which is an extensive amount of variety.

If we were to look at match-ups strictly on a move-by-move basis, Zelda would have the majority of the cast beat out.

However, these are not points that match-up advantages exclusively pivot on. We have to look at the entire package - amount of start-up and cool-down frames, priority, ground and air speed, stock longevity, move set versatility, etc. - in order to accurately assess something as subjective as a match-up favor.

At the end of the day, I believe this specific match-up turns on how well Diddy can maximize damage once he creates an opening from punishing the cool-down on any of Zelda's various attacks (this includes drawing out the lag on obvious counterattack measures like Naryu's Love, whiffed smashes, etc.). She only has one viable pressure option over long distances (Din's Fire) and a handful of pressure options in close quarters in the form of her smashes and D-tilt; at mid-range, a distance right outside of her melee attacks, but not far enough for her to safely pressure with Din's Fire, she has absolutely no answer. At this range, it's just a matter of Diddy forcing Zelda into a predictable defensive posture and baiting an opening.

On a related note: a quick search on YouTube yields a couple of matches of a Diddy Kong I have never heard of before convincingly beating DarkMusician both times.

So diddy kongs move set is totally out classed by Zelda. Yet you feel as though the match up skewed heavily into diddy favor because of his pressure game and punishing options?

Also one video of a top player losing a match up does not prove a thing about the match up. If that was the case then I can get a vid of FOW beating tyrant and claim the Ness match up is in Ness' favor because of that vid.

sasook · Jul 23, 2009

GodAtHand said:
Your pompous ignorant internet arguing totally made you seem super cool btw. No wonder so many people are quitting smash. You spent more time trying to pt me down than argue the matchup. congratz!... your an official douche.

Calm yourself. I can see where you're coming from, but you have to see where he's coming from. You've stated what you usually do in the matchup, but you're ignoring his points. Now, since I dunno much about either Zelda or Diddy, I can look at this from a neutral standpoint. And overall, it does seem to be in Diddy's favor, based on your/his arguments.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:
So diddy kongs move set is totally out classed by Zelda. Yet you feel as though the match up skewed heavily into diddy favor because of his pressure game and punishing options?

He just made 2 lengthy posts as to why, so to answer your question, yes.

GodAtHand · Jul 23, 2009

sasook said:
And overall, it does seem to be in Diddy's favor, based on your/his arguments.

I agree with that. What he was saying made it seem like it was one of our hard counters, and its not. I don't think it should be a counter. 60-40 or less in his favor is what I think. Although I personally would want 55-45 I wouldn't feel any qualms about the 60-40.

sasook · Jul 23, 2009

Oh I see. I dunno, based on my viewpoint, it seemed like he was arguing for a 60:40 too. :laugh:

My personal opinion: 60:40 Diddy

GodAtHand · Jul 23, 2009

Maybe he just came on too strong for me. In my mind he was yelling about everything. **** internetz.

Le_THieN · Jul 23, 2009

LOL. I don't think anyone is actually reading what I have been saying. =)

I'm certain the words "hard counter" never left my lips; however, even having a 6:4 advantage over Zelda is pretty steep.

sasook · Jul 23, 2009

Le_THieN said:
even having a 6:4 advantage over Zelda is pretty steep.

55:45 then?

GodAtHand · Jul 23, 2009

I think your attitude was what made me think you thought it was really bad for Zelda. 6-4 ain't bad for a low tier vs high tier matchup. Just do something crazy with Zelda like actually land a Dair spike each match and it is pretty much even lol.

Le_THieN · Jul 23, 2009

sasook said:
55:45 then?

No, no. I think 4:6 Diddy is correct. I only said it was steep because, mathematically, that translates to Diddy having a 60% possibility of winning. If you think about ratios in terms of bracket or Grand Finals sets, that's actually not very close at all.

4:6 may not be considered a counter match-up, but I still think it's bad enough.

Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Diddy Kong

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