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Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Marth
- Thread starter Kataefi
- Start date
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Thank god Marth can be punishable if some of his attacks is dodged, misspaced or blocked. He outranges us... barely, but he does it and it sucks.
He thrashes us in the air BTW..... stupid fair.
He thrashes us in the air BTW..... stupid fair.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Pivot grab Marth's aerial approaches. (PROOF OF CONCEPT!)
But in all seriousness, learn to space. Play extremely carefully and try not to lag. (kind of hard when you're Zelda) If you lag, then prepare to get a Dancing Blade to the face.
But in all seriousness, learn to space. Play extremely carefully and try not to lag. (kind of hard when you're Zelda) If you lag, then prepare to get a Dancing Blade to the face.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Pierce has tons of knowledge to share. I hope he sees this thread. I misplaced all the info he gave me about half a year ago, sadly...
Anyway, if I'm not mistaken, ftilt sorta works decently here. It has very good range on it and it can trade/beat Marth's aerials in numerous situations, as well as lose out if you aren't careful. I think if Zelda just waits until he's about in fair range, she's actually at a decent range herself for her own attacks. Of course, you don't wanna get tippered over and over, so I guess if it makes sense, operate at ftilt range vs. an aerial Marth. As for the ground, I've had much more success just playing extremely aggressive against Marth. It can be tough to get inside his defensive game, but the main thing you wanna get past is tippers. His killing potential isn't grand her. Of course, the damage will still add up.
It can be a tough fight for Zelda. Try to save at least one kill move. (Dsmash in general & Usmash for Marths that don't place themselves above Zelda, which should be many.) Shield the Dancing Blade. You *may* be able to interrupt between the 3rd and 4th hit on block with Dsmash, but I'm not totally sure.
Anyway, if I'm not mistaken, ftilt sorta works decently here. It has very good range on it and it can trade/beat Marth's aerials in numerous situations, as well as lose out if you aren't careful. I think if Zelda just waits until he's about in fair range, she's actually at a decent range herself for her own attacks. Of course, you don't wanna get tippered over and over, so I guess if it makes sense, operate at ftilt range vs. an aerial Marth. As for the ground, I've had much more success just playing extremely aggressive against Marth. It can be tough to get inside his defensive game, but the main thing you wanna get past is tippers. His killing potential isn't grand her. Of course, the damage will still add up.
It can be a tough fight for Zelda. Try to save at least one kill move. (Dsmash in general & Usmash for Marths that don't place themselves above Zelda, which should be many.) Shield the Dancing Blade. You *may* be able to interrupt between the 3rd and 4th hit on block with Dsmash, but I'm not totally sure.
It's not hard to not lag when your Zelda.......you just have to play her differently. Instant dash attack can punish a PS retreating fair........Villi proved this months ago. Oh and I remember Mocha was known down in Louisiana for hitting Marths with lightning kicks in between fairs.
The great thing about this matchup is that not only do you have comparable range to Marth on the ground which makes spacing more difficult for him.........he doesn't kill you for forever so this is one of the few matchups that you could realistically live to 150%. You want to talk about lag.......Marth has really no KO moves that don't involve a good amount of lag besides nair and utilt. If you do happen to land a lightning kick for a KO before 100% on any of his stocks......it can really change the outcome of a match.
Dtilt lock doesn't work on Marth......don't use it you'll just get a DS to the face. Dtilt once to a dsmash/grab/ftilt/usmash/utilt.
He juggles Zelda pretty easily....stay away from the air as much as possible. She actually can do some pretty neat stuff to Marth's recovery.....take advantage of it.
Pretty hard matchup but certainly not unwinnable. I still look at it as a 40-60.
The great thing about this matchup is that not only do you have comparable range to Marth on the ground which makes spacing more difficult for him.........he doesn't kill you for forever so this is one of the few matchups that you could realistically live to 150%. You want to talk about lag.......Marth has really no KO moves that don't involve a good amount of lag besides nair and utilt. If you do happen to land a lightning kick for a KO before 100% on any of his stocks......it can really change the outcome of a match.
Dtilt lock doesn't work on Marth......don't use it you'll just get a DS to the face. Dtilt once to a dsmash/grab/ftilt/usmash/utilt.
He juggles Zelda pretty easily....stay away from the air as much as possible. She actually can do some pretty neat stuff to Marth's recovery.....take advantage of it.
Pretty hard matchup but certainly not unwinnable. I still look at it as a 40-60.
Dtilt lock definitely works on Marth... his light actually makes him easier to lock:
Dolphin slash only works when you've misused the frame advantages... so long as you start using it at roughly 50% onwards (60% or late 50s would be ideal so that even decayed dtilts will offer some sort of advantage) and never earlier, you will always get advantages for him to never be able to use dolphin slash as a counter attack.
I see your point though - because DS is a frame 1 attack. That's why I personally don't like to use the lock on Marth, I just always connect the first dtilt with another move like dsmash or dash attack to refresh the stun on the next dtilt I'll try to use given the chance.
Actually, there are times when you can bait his DS with the lock if you cancel to shield, allowing you to punish afterwards. I doubt this situation might come up regularly though.
edit: I miss mocha and villi... I really wish they'd come back lol but they both disappeared.
edit2: With dancing blade... I really don't know how the mechanics work but iirc I've seen Mikey Lenetia SDI inwards and nayru's immediately... giving out more damage than taken. I've also heard you can Dsmash in between if you shield the first 2 hits but I don't know too much about this one.
Mikey Lenetia
Smash Champion
She does have enough time, but typically on a shield you'll want to wait until the third hit. The pause between it and the fourth is significant enough where you can connect a lot more reliably without a trade. Also, I'm not entirely sure but you could possibly get a grab in or an usmash if he's REALLY close to you. Nayru is another good option to look into.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
if it's powersheilded, won't Dtilt or Dsmash work?
goodkid
Smash Lord
In this match-up if Zelda waits for her opportunities and stays out of range, she can win this.
Fair/Bair OOS works well in this matchup. You can either run up, try to powershield his Fair and kick oos, or just stay slightly out of range from his aerials, then duck, then kick. Spotdodge should protect you from Fair, but his Fair can be a little laggy so this is not guaranteed.
Fair/Bair OOS works well in this matchup. You can either run up, try to powershield his Fair and kick oos, or just stay slightly out of range from his aerials, then duck, then kick. Spotdodge should protect you from Fair, but his Fair can be a little laggy so this is not guaranteed.
Marth's zoning seriously wrecks Zelda. With a combination of fair, dtilt, and jab, Marth can stay out of Zelda's range pretty easily and just leave her with no options. The only thing you can really do is try and PS a fair or dtilt and dash attack him.
Your ftilt is pretty good here, dtilt works too if Marth makes a mistake and gets close to you. But again, if Marth is in control your options are severely limited. That's why I suggest to Sheiks to not switch to Zelda for the kill, you'll most likely just end up taking more damage because Marth has to mess up pretty bad to get hit by one of Zelda's kill moves.
It's either 65:35 or 60:40 imo
Your ftilt is pretty good here, dtilt works too if Marth makes a mistake and gets close to you. But again, if Marth is in control your options are severely limited. That's why I suggest to Sheiks to not switch to Zelda for the kill, you'll most likely just end up taking more damage because Marth has to mess up pretty bad to get hit by one of Zelda's kill moves.
It's either 65:35 or 60:40 imo
MrEh
Smash Hero
I think it's 35-65. Prepare to get outspaced and punished. lol
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Marth is great at zoning. That is why Zelda needs to be in ftilt (or maybe dtilt) range. Of course, it requires some good reacting/predicting to punish his less laggy moves (yes, jab and even fair can be punished on a PS, not gonna get ahead of myself and say on a normal block though - as for dtilt, forget it unless he screws up spacing).
It really takes a lot of practice to get used to Marth, or more importantly, hitboxes that go in arcs. It's easy to lose control of the fight because of that. Aside from that though, Zelda needs to be punishing his kill moves with lightning kicks, his ground game with dtilt/Dsmash/Usmash (you know when to apply each), and seeking to land ftilt and Fsmash by watching his spacing. It's a lot easier said than done. Likely a 40:60. *Possibly* 35:65, depending on what Zelda can really punish. Probably feels worse if you compare Zelda to Sheik though. Use Sheik if you can, because really, I believe that this fight is pretty much even... and yes, Sheik can kill Marth.
It really takes a lot of practice to get used to Marth, or more importantly, hitboxes that go in arcs. It's easy to lose control of the fight because of that. Aside from that though, Zelda needs to be punishing his kill moves with lightning kicks, his ground game with dtilt/Dsmash/Usmash (you know when to apply each), and seeking to land ftilt and Fsmash by watching his spacing. It's a lot easier said than done. Likely a 40:60. *Possibly* 35:65, depending on what Zelda can really punish. Probably feels worse if you compare Zelda to Sheik though. Use Sheik if you can, because really, I believe that this fight is pretty much even... and yes, Sheik can kill Marth.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Sheik is much harder for marth to keep zoned than zelda is, even if he has a larger zone that he's allowed to keep sheik in.
*tumbleweed*
So what options does zelda have against a well-spaced marth Fair camping? Does anyone throw out the occasional din's at all?
Also... if she shields the Fair... is there potential to do an Fair OoS?
Just bumping this and throwing out some questions.
So what options does zelda have against a well-spaced marth Fair camping? Does anyone throw out the occasional din's at all?
Also... if she shields the Fair... is there potential to do an Fair OoS?
Just bumping this and throwing out some questions.
Marth is NOT camping in this match. He's on Zelda the entire time giving her no room to breath. That said, with Marth spacing correctly you don't have any options except running away lol. Though if you powershield a fair you can probably sneak in a dash attack. I dunno about the fair OOS but sounds unlikely to me.
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
I'm a total noob, but I'll try..?
I move around like crazy in a pathetic attempt to screw up the Marth player's spacing.
As for Din's, I do what NL does in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzHrJBFgmUY
Just a Foward B & let it explode in front. I don't use it randomly, but when the situation is given..
For the OoS thing, it's possible but not really realistic.. Wouldn't Marth just follow up with another fair, which outspeeds Zelda's fair?
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Yes, there is actually. Tipper range for marth is almost = lightning kick range. Retreating fairs are a little harder to punish, but they certainly are not nonpunishable.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
zelda gets pressured by marth like a B****
and a lot of his moves stop dins fire
ahhh spacing this kind of matchup is so hard
usually i just go for spaced fsmashes, or timing jabs to stop his approaches... cuz it DOES reach.. sometimes
i'd much rather go sheik/zelda, but if i had to go solo zelda... i would go for timing jabs and timing dins fire. i am just good at the marth matchup in general with any character, so i just know his openings. hit him between fairs, and run around and shield cancel ur dashes to space fsmashes. timing fairs or usmashes are incredibly risky to do in his open spots cuz he will punish u like crazy... ftilts and dtilts hard to connect
you don't have a lot of options, but if you play it safe and the marth isn't spacing perfectly, you can do quite a bit of damage. once again i'd much rather go sheik/zelda on this
and a lot of his moves stop dins fire
ahhh spacing this kind of matchup is so hard
usually i just go for spaced fsmashes, or timing jabs to stop his approaches... cuz it DOES reach.. sometimes
i'd much rather go sheik/zelda, but if i had to go solo zelda... i would go for timing jabs and timing dins fire. i am just good at the marth matchup in general with any character, so i just know his openings. hit him between fairs, and run around and shield cancel ur dashes to space fsmashes. timing fairs or usmashes are incredibly risky to do in his open spots cuz he will punish u like crazy... ftilts and dtilts hard to connect
you don't have a lot of options, but if you play it safe and the marth isn't spacing perfectly, you can do quite a bit of damage. once again i'd much rather go sheik/zelda on this
MrEh
Smash Hero
Everything stops Din's Fire. lol
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Isn't dancing blade low enough damage not to? Or will it still block Din's shorter than mid range?
The only cool thing zelda does to Marth is counter his counter. Marths I have played have a penchant for using Counter if they are falling at you from the air. Zelda's Usmash activates Counter with a tiny sparkle and then rips him out of it with the sparkles that follow. I think Fsmash could work the same way, but the positioning will likely allow him to smack us in the face with counter before we smack him with our sparklies.
I know huh? LOL.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
I like Dash attacks.
MrEh
Smash Hero
And I like Dancing Blade OoS.
sniperworm
Smash Ace
Messing with Marth's spacing is possible, but you need to use all your tools to keep him guessing.
Up-angled Ftilt, retreating pivot grabs, retreating stutter-stepped Fsmash (charging as necessary to abuse the pull back and how she lowers her head), dash attack, and Usmash (running and normal) all have to be mixed in to keep him guessing on where you'll be (these are against aerial approaches, obviously your options are a little different against his ground moves). If he can't tell exactly where you're gonna be, it'll be hard for him to space correctly and he'll mess up on his spacing more.
Up-angled Ftilt, retreating pivot grabs, retreating stutter-stepped Fsmash (charging as necessary to abuse the pull back and how she lowers her head), dash attack, and Usmash (running and normal) all have to be mixed in to keep him guessing on where you'll be (these are against aerial approaches, obviously your options are a little different against his ground moves). If he can't tell exactly where you're gonna be, it'll be hard for him to space correctly and he'll mess up on his spacing more.
I'm pretty sure that the first hit of Dancing Blade has transcendant priority (not sure about the rest), so it isn't stopping Din's.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
I don't like dash attack on shield.
Okay... 35:65 Zelda's disadvantage + or - is what this is currently floating around as. I'll put the worst case value down to get everyone working harder. Any more strategies? Like how would one edgeguard Marth or something?
sniperworm
Smash Ace
I dunno, probably something along the lines of ...
1) Get to the edge of the stage.
2) Throw Din's Fire at him until he's relatively near the stage.
3) Edgehog right before he uses UpB so you have invincibility while his hitbox is out (if you screw up, roll onto the stage or something before he stage spikes you, lol).
4) Kick his butt (literally) if he reached the stage during his frames of "Marth lag."
MrEh
Smash Hero
That's pretty much it.
Attempting to intercept Marth offstage isn't exactly easy, since Marth has a sword. And you do not.
Attempting to intercept Marth offstage isn't exactly easy, since Marth has a sword. And you do not.
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
If he is recovering low it is probably worth trying the spike. Otherwise I would just Din's the crap out of him.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Actually, this is a matchup that it might be worth switching to sheik for the kill since a shiel with a fresh fair can edgeguard kill marth decently.
Good comedic delivery, sir.
Erm, this is my hardest Match-Up for Zelda. I agree that Sheik is best for this. Her B-Air has great range and she can pivot grab pretty well which can sometimes mess up a counter happy Marth.
I'll currently leave this at 35:65 just to be on the safer side - that way we can be more prepared when we face him. Feel free to definately add more discussion to this thread, like more strategies on how to avoid his camp game and how to make him whiff his spacing game and stuff. Every little definitely helps.
It's a shame we couldn't get anymore higher level marths coming in.
It's a shame we couldn't get anymore higher level marths coming in.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
oh kay well here's probably why:
Zelda cannot be safe. Literally, she CANNOT opperate in her safe zone against marth because her safe zone doesn't exist against him. His defenses aren't near as good as, say, olimar's, but his offensive abilities are better. Zelda's normally safe range actually puts her right in tipper range... ouch.
zeldspazz
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2008
- Messages
- 3,432
Oh ok, so basically you cant "play it safe" cus is there is no safe to play? Her range of moves that keeps her away from others is Marths tipper range?
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Yes. That's why you need to get in his face.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
something Zelda does NOT excell at. All marth has to do is sheild and he effectlively counters all of Zelda's approaches.