Z-Axis workings...?

TheReflexWonder · Jun 30, 2009

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7733456&postcount=1

Masky posted this a couple of days ago in the Pokemon Trainer subforum.

tl;dr--

There appears to be a Z-Axis that affects how vulnerable a character's hitbox is. For example, ROB and Dedede have spotdodges where a portion of their body goes into the background, so even when they lose invincibility at the end of the animation, many moves will not hit their upper bodies.

The sweetspot of Charizard's N-Air (where the opponent catches fire) appears to only hit opponents who exist on both "important" points on the Z-Axis (such as Donkey Kong). Otherwise, you'll never land the sweetspot.

A good example of this is hitting Ice Climbers with the beginning of Charizard's N-Air. Popo will never be sweetspotted, but Nana can be.

While seeing if certain attacks or actions create this situation could be neat, I am mostly concerned about spotdodges that may be able to abuse this. Dedede appears to have among the worst spotdodges in the game when you look at the frame data, but we've all predicted it only to find the move to miss many times over. Perhaps if we find out where we can hit him on his vulnerability frames, it would make punishing easier for everyone.

If this information turns out to be incorrect, I apologize, but I have reason to believe it's all solid, and I want to get this tested...

-Jumpman- · Jun 30, 2009

Testing would clear this up. Possibly game-breaking I guess. It could change the use of several moves.

Kewkky · Jun 30, 2009

It actually makes sense. I'm guessing Lucario's fully-charged Aura Sphere when at high %s, also reaches the 'background' layer at some point... I can't recall the number of times I've airdodged/spotdodged that attack with precision, and it still hits me, whereas other attacks don't and I airdodge/spotdodge them successfully.

It makes sense looking at it from an abstract point of view, since the character's polygon is pulled into the background, where the hitbox of the attack's sprite/animation can't reach... Which would prove that the game isn't single-layered, having only a single 2-dimensional panel where characters' sprites travel through... Meaning some characters get more 'invincibility' frames (they can't be hit at parts of their body due to their polygons being outside the 2d-layer) than they seem they do.

It's just my opinion, though.

LuigiKing · Jun 30, 2009

I discovered this with Luigi's fireball a couple months ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwI6nf89kQM

His lower body can be hit, but his upper body dips into the "Z-axis". Kinda neet.

xDD-Master · Jun 30, 2009

Why did you do a Fireball in that situation XD ? Just out of interest...

Anyway nice find if this is true ._.

Riddle · Jun 30, 2009

Whoa, that's really weird. I'm gonna test this as soon as I can and I'll try to report back.

PK-ow! · Jun 30, 2009

LuigiKing said:
I discovered this with Luigi's fireball a couple months ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwI6nf89kQM

His lower body can be hit, but his upper body dips into the "Z-axis". Kinda neet.

Okay wow.

As far as I'm concerned, this proves it. The Z-axis is a real part of this game.

Prepare to warp the meta, guys.

Nefarious B · Jun 30, 2009

People have known about this for ages, it's not game changing. You may find a few cool tricks though.

B!squick · Jun 30, 2009

On certain stages Bowser can disappear in the background with his AD. Z-Axis is for reals.

LuigiKing · Jun 30, 2009

xDD-Master said:
Why did you do a Fireball in that situation XD ? Just out of interest...

Anyway nice find if this is true ._.

It happened in a match and that video is us recreating it =p

Also yaay I helped.

Masky · Jun 30, 2009

..........

Sudai · Jun 30, 2009

Pause at exactly 0:05 on Masky's vid and you'll see ROB's laser clearly going into Wario's chin and through his head. No hit, no knockback, no damage. A hack that would show us exactly hit boxes and hurt boxes would be wonderful right now so we could figure out exactly where everything is. :x

ook · Jun 30, 2009

I think what everyone is wondering (or at least I am) is, does this still happen on Flat Zone and Hanenbow?

(all characters show up as flat 2D people on those stages)

clowsui · Jun 30, 2009

the z-axis was discovered by michael hey and his associates a while back
i don't believe any extensive testing has been done on it though

Luigi player · Jun 30, 2009

Very interesting...

ph00tbag · Jun 30, 2009

Hurtbox displacement along the Z-axis has played minor role in dodging since at least melee. It's actually really useful to pay attention to what happens to your own hurtboxes during moves in general. It will yield results like Bowser's Fsmash being used as a counter, as well as Falcon's Raptor Boost and Falcon Kick used in the same manner.

Note that Ness and Lucas have similar qualities in their shield drop animations.

Neon Ness · Jun 30, 2009

Yeah...

Lucas moves into the z-axis when charging his forward smash, towards the end frames of the charge animation.

Too bad Ness doesn't...

PhantomX · Jun 30, 2009

This is part of the reason why Wario's nair is so amazing.

Timbers · Jun 30, 2009

PhantomX said:
This is part of the reason why Wario's nair is so amazing.

I thought it was just because he smooshed himself lol.

I've seen a lot of this Z-axis stuff but I just assumed that the hurtbox became disjointed from the actual sprite. I guess it accomplishes the same assumptions as the sprite moving into the background but yeah.

What sucks for Lucario is all of his moves are really flat lol. He has all these lingering properties but I have never seen them be able to abuse the "Z-axis," and he doesn't have any moves that will move him into it either, save for possibly fsmash.

PhantomX · Jun 30, 2009

He only smooshes himself when he hits the floor... and come to think of it, he may have gone entirely into the Z-axis when that happened that one time your fully charged aurasphere went over me, Timbers XD

The noise he makes is cool too :D

Dark 3nergy · Jun 30, 2009

Well it kinda makes me wonder what shape the hitboxes are for xx characters. Especially multi hit and disjointed hit boxes

Jupz · Jun 30, 2009

This explains a lot of things, such as why moves go through the first few frames of Lucarios counter, and why snakes mortar slide sometimes goes through people

Interesting read.

GimR · Jun 30, 2009

PhantomX said:
He only smooshes himself when he hits the floor... and come to think of it, he may have gone entirely into the Z-axis when that happened that one time your fully charged aurasphere went over me, Timbers XD

The noise he makes is cool too :D

Yeah I missed Slikvik with Peaches Pivot Grab because of this. Her Pivot Grab has massive range.

Also someone in Melee discovered that you could dodge Falco's lasers with a part of ganon's forward B

Big O · Jun 30, 2009

God-is-my-Rock said:
Yeah I missed Slikvik with Peaches Pivot Grab because of this. Her Pivot Grab has massive range.

Also someone in Melee discovered that you could dodge Falco's lasers with a part of ganon's forward B

I haven't played melee in the longest time but from what I remember all projectiles go through Ganon and CF's during their side b. At least Samus charge shots anyway.

sasook · Jun 30, 2009

What I'm curious is how this affects characters who have a "set" direction for their spot dodge, such as Marth or Link. If they face left, they move forward and back, respectively, but when they face right, it reverses for both of them. Does this mean it will only work when the character is facing a certain direction? Does this only work when the character goes back? Will it never work if he "comes out" at you?

Food for thought. If these were answered already, I fail at reading.

Tenki · Jul 1, 2009

Heh. But it'd make you wonder about certain characters' hitboxes for disjointed attacks.

Obviously, not all attacks are as thin as some things, like lasers. Even stranger would be thinking about the moves whose hitboxes do not necessarily make sense nor correspond with their graphics. Can you just assume that their hitboxes are all the same "z-width", or could some moves really have differing 'width' properties to them as well?

Jupz said:
why snakes mortar slide sometimes goes through people Interesting read.

I'm pretty sure that's probably just mistiming.

and on a more related note...

****'s about to go to other dimensions.

demonictoonlink · Jul 1, 2009

I <3 Tenki
I'm pretty sure Tink's Dash Attack does this. I'll go test.

Nick A · Jul 1, 2009

I feel like some of you are confusing shifting hitboxes with a z-axis...

swordgard · Jul 1, 2009

Nick A said:
I feel like some of you are confusing shifting hitboxes with a z-axis...

Thats what im thinking too >.<

timothyung · Jul 1, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TEwNWQD7ow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bYu9oCH-2k

Kewkky · Jul 1, 2009

D.E. said:
Well it kinda makes me wonder what shape the hitboxes are for xx characters. Especially multi hit and disjointed hit boxes

Snake's utilt:

I would love doing other hitboxes, but there are almost no pictures of character attacks around, much less disjoints.

Poltergust · Jul 1, 2009

Neon Ness said:
Yeah...

Lucas moves into the z-axis when charging his forward smash, towards the end frames of the charge animation.

Too bad Ness doesn't...

Ah! THIS is why Yoshi can't dash-grab him while he is charging his f-smash! Thank you for clearing that up!

I've kind of known this z-axis thing for a while, but I never realized how much of an impact it had. Amazing...

CRASHiC · Jul 1, 2009

Kewkky said:
Snake's utilt:

I would love doing other hitboxes, but there are almost no pictures of character attacks around, much less disjoints.

Hitboxes should be an invisable object.
So if we were to give the object some color though texture hacking, then we can get an image of just where the hitbox is.

Masky · Jul 10, 2009

..........

zeldspazz · Jul 10, 2009

Doesnt this happen to JigglyPuff during her rest, because that has happened to me so many times when she wiffs one.

ph00tbag · Jul 10, 2009

CRASHiC said:
Hitboxes should be an invisable object.
So if we were to give the object some color though texture hacking, then we can get an image of just where the hitbox is.

I've talked to Yeroc, and at least one other WBR member, I think, about doing this. Evidently it's conceivable, but looking into it is not yet a priority. Maybe people who aren't preoccupied with B+ could look into it.

XienZo · Jul 10, 2009

zeldspazz said:
Doesnt this happen to JigglyPuff during her rest, because that has happened to me so many times when she wiffs one.

Thats a pure invinciblity frame. It'll block everything.

PK-ow! · Jul 10, 2009

Masky said:
yes it does

Can you. . . confirm that?

@sasook: What do you mean about Marth and Link's spot dodge?

deepseadiva · Jul 10, 2009

Here's that Boozer Port thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6F9jO-bC3I

I really don't see how this will have anything but a marginal affect on anything.

phi1ny3 · Jul 10, 2009

This is cool stuff, even if it might be trivial.

Z-Axis workings...?

Wonderful!

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