Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #2: Olimar

TLMSheikant · Jul 3, 2009

The Olimar Matchup Rediscussion Thread

Even 50:50

Frame data for Olimar: Go here if you want to compare Olimar's frame data with TL's.

Jab
First hit on: 4
Second hit on: 13
Ends on: 29

Held Jab
First hit: 4
Second hit: 13
Third hit: 21
Ends on: 35

Dash Attack
First hit on: 8
Second hit on: 16
Ends on: 45
(Ends on 34 if the attack misses)

Forward Tilt
Hits on: 9
Ends on: 37

Down Tilt
Hits on: 6
Ends on: 29

Up Tilt
First hit on: 6
Second hit on: 12
Third hit on: 18
Fourth hit on: 24
Fifth hit on: 30
Sixth hit on: 36
Seventh hit on: 42
Eighth hit on: 48
Ends on: 72
(Ends on 39 if the attack misses)

Forward Smash
Hits on: 11
Pikmin's hitbox lasts till: 47
Ends on: 39
Can charge until: 68

Up Smash
Hits on: 8
Endson: 32
Can charge until: 68

Down Smash
Hits on: 10
Ends on: 38
Can charge until: 68

Neutral Air
First hit on: 7
Second hit on: 14
Third hit on: 21
Fourth hit on: 28
Fifth hit on: 35
Sixth hit on: 42
Landing Lag: 16
Ends on: 66
(Ends on 41 if the attack misses)

Forward Air
Hits on: 7
Ends on: 42
Landing Lag: 15

Back Air
Hits on: 10
Ends on: 48
Landing Lag: 15

Up Air (Red/Blue/Purple)
First hit on: 8
Second hit on: 15
Third hit on: 22
Fourth hit on: 29
Fifth hit on: 36
Sixth hit on: 43
Seventh hit on: 50
Landing Lag: 30
Ends on: 70
(Ends on 34 if attack misses)

Up Air (Yellow/White)
First hit on: 8
Second hit on: 14
Third hit on: 20
Fourth hit on: 26
Fifth hit on: 32
Sixth hit on: 38
Seventh hit on: 44
Landing Lag: 30
Ends on: 64
(Ends on 34 if attack misses)

Down Air
Hits on: 9
Hitbox Ends on: 16
Ends on: 51
Landing Lag 30

Grab
Grabs on: 11
Hit box ends on: 25
Ends on: 29

Pummel
Hits on: 10

Forward Throw
Hits on: 4
Ends on: 31

Back Throw
Hits on: 7
Ends on: 35

Down Throw
Hits on: 15
Ends on: 35

Up Throw
Hits on: 27
Ends on: 41

Neutral B
Plucks Pikmin on: 3
Ends on: 9
(Lasts until 13 on cave terrain)

Side B
Hits on: 9
Ends on: 25
-Pikmin stays latched for 260 frames after latched, decreasing by one frame for each percentage of damage on the opponent, with a minimum of 60 frames. The pikmin deals a latch hit every 30 frames.

Down B
Super Armor starts on: 2
Super Armor lasts through: 16
Ends on: 20

UpB
Hits on: 12
Ends on: 70
(If used in the air, Olimar will flip upside down after 60 frames. After this there are 32 frames of landing lag the next time he hits the ground.)

Spotdodge
Invincibility begins on: 3
Invincibility Lasts through: 20
Ends on: 25

Forward Roll
Invincibility begins on: 3
Invincibility lasts through: 19
Ends on: 32

Backwards Roll
Invincibility begins on: 4
Invincibility lasts through: 19
Ends on: 32

Air Dodge
Invincibility begins on: 2
Invincibility lasts through: 30
Ends on: 39

Get Up
Invincibility begins on: 1
Invincibility lasts through: 22
Ends on: 29

Get Up Attack
First hit on: 15
Second hit on: 25
Invincibility begins on: 1
Invincibility lasts through: 29
Ends on: 55

Get Up Roll (Forward)
Invincibility begins on: 1
Invincibility lasts through: 22
Ends on: 35

Get Up Roll (Bakwards)
Invincibility begins on: 1
Invincibility lasts through: 23
Ends on: 35

Ledge Attack
Hits on: 17
Ends on: 55

Slow Ledge Attack
Hits on: 39
Ends on: 69

Jump
In air on: 7
Landing Lag: 2

Best Stage to fight Olimar on:

Frigate Orpheon

Other good stages to fight Olimar on:
-Jungle Japes
-Lylat Cruise
-Yoshi's Island
-Rainbow Cruise

Worst Stage to fight Olimar on:

Luigi's Mansion

Other stages you should avoid:
-Pirate Ship (if legal)
-Final Destination

Summary:

Olimar is a very campy character with a lot of powerful tools to camp and keep the camping going. Olimar with his pikmin game shuts down Toon Link's camp game almost completely if not completely. His pikmin make it almost impossible to use bombs effectively in the matchup since if you have a pikmin latched onto you and you throw the bomb it will explode in your face and cause damage to yourself. His pikmin also block boomerang and arrows. Because of this, Toon Link has to play aggresive and get through Olimar's spam. Neutral Air breaks through pikmin and will be used the most in this matchup to approach usually followed up by an arrow cancel. Beware as his purple pikmin wont be killed by nair.

His pivot grab has low cooldown and a lot of range so be on the lookout for it while approaching. His blue pikmin give him the most range while grabbing. His white pikmin have the most damage output with side b but are weak at everything else. His red pikmin have a lot of knockback and are generally used for finishing aerials and KO moves. His yellow pikmin have low knockback and electric hitlag with multihit moves such as upair allowing for more combos. His purple pikmin hit hard and do a lot of damage and are generally used to KO with uthrow or as a proyectile with side b. (they dont latch and do damage instead) Everytime you are grabbed expect to be combo'd a lot :/. They can follow up their down throw with an upsmash and if you dont DI the upsmash to the side they can combo you with aerials too if you arent careful.

Olimar's biggest weakness is his recovery. So whenever you have the opportunity, go for the gimp. Zair to dash attack at the edge of the stage works wonders for this. Nair and fair is also a good offstage edgeguard. Beware of his whistle though, it has super armor frames and good olis use it to avoid gimps. If you get Olimar very far offstage, just edgehog and prepare to press L/R exactly when the olimar uses upB (like in melee) that way you dont get hit by the upB and risk being stagespiked and you gimp Olimar at the same time. If Olimar is close enough to you while trying to recover, he can upair, nair or fair to get you off the ledge and then upB to get back safely so be careful of that too.

Back air, Neutral air, Zair, jab, Boomerangs and arrow cancels are your most effective tools in this matchup. The best stages to fight Olimar is generally stages where you can abuse his recovery problem easier and small stages without a lot of space to close the gap quickly. You will want to avoid stages like norfair and pirate ship where there are lots of ledges/water to allow Olimar to recover. Good stages to fight Olimar on are Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes and Battlefield. (because of its small size)

Olimar also kills Toon Link a lot easier than Toon Link can kill him which is the biggest problem in the matchup for Toon Link aside from having to approach and being badly outcamped.

Moves to watch out for:
Side B, UpSmash, Grab, Pivot Grab, Forward Smash, Down Smash, Neutral Air, Up Air, Forward Air, Back Throw, Upthrow, Down throw.

Moves that are very useful in this matchup:
Jab, Neutral Air, Zair, Back air, Boomerang, Arrow Cancels. Dont forget to mix it up.

TL;DR- Do not camp olimar, dont use bombs, beware of pivot grabs while approaching, DI his throw combos and gimp him. Hyro: Nair to arrow cancel

.

demonictoonlink · Jul 3, 2009

I won't even bother with people who say we have an advantage...I say he's our second worst, after Metaknight. Zair>Nair is great as always...Not too many bombs (pikmin make you explode) Make sure to gimp like hell...IDK what else. I'll do more later.

Sosuke · Jul 3, 2009

Nair to arrow cancel is all I know.
Really.

Hyro · Jul 3, 2009

sasukebowser said:
Nair to arrow cancel is all I know.
Really.

That's all you need to know.

1. Nair -> Arrow
2. No Bombs
3. Dsmash for OHKO's
4. Don't spotdodge grab releases
5. herkules = dTL

Matchup 60-40 TL

EDIT:

80-20 Toon Link

TOO easy, nair nair nair arrow arrow arrow even dTL could beat one

:lick:

NearZzz · Jul 3, 2009

60:40 Oli.

Nair-> AC does ****, But being predictable against a Olimar? good luck with that.

He makes our bombs near useless (A good olimar who has pikmen on you 24/7), He has the killing advantage and out ranges us, just like we can spam Nair-> and AC and do decent, he can spam grabs and smashes and do better. The only advantage we have is gimping.

and as for Dsmash, good luck getting a good oli to walk into it lol.

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage · Jul 3, 2009

I HIGHLY disagree with you HyRo. Yes I know Nair to arrow cancel is one of the most important things in the matchup, and after a while, a "decent" Olimar would see the arrow coming anyways and dodge it so it is VERY important to mix it up a bit. Zair is very good for spacing against Olimar but I think his Fsmash has more range, not sure. Bombs aren't really used as much as in other matchups because if you use it with a Pikmin attached to you then you explode. Use your boomerangs for mindgames to interrupts a pikmin attacks like Fsmash.

Also: HyRo, I would like to know how in the world a good Olimar would get hit by a Dsmash under 20%
You standing at the edge just waiting for them to come to you and for them NOT to expect a Dsmash, they could just spot dodge and grab you, VERY easy to punish.

EDIT: There is NO way in hell that the matchup would get any better than 60 - 40 Olimar. Olimar obviously has the advantage. All he has to do, spam grabs, his Fsmash has more rang than ANYTHING you have (except maybe Zair) and he has a WAYYYYYYY easier time killing. His only problem is that we can gimp his recovery easily that's why the matchup is 60 - 40 Olimar, if he had a recovery like Sonic the matchup would be at least 90 - 10 Olimar.
XD GGs Toon Link.

Dabuz · Jul 3, 2009

hyro: online this matchup is 70:30 because oli can't spotdodge arrors, bot offline, its 65-35 tinks advantage by far

what both people must remember is, THIS IS A WAR FOR AREA CONTROL, both characters camp each other equally and easily, but toonlink can use his projectiles to force reactions and approach in ways oli can't punish, because nair stops all of our pikmin AND pikmin based based moves except up-b, BUT if you approach from the air, throw boomerang down, and use aerials(mainly nair) we CANNOT PUNISH, boomerang/arrow will hit us before we up-b, it can also hit us if we try to upsmash or shorthop fair you, and then your aerial just gets us in a juggling spot, or it we shield then you can jump back with retreating zairs and keep weakening our shields, spotdodge is free hi,t and if we roll we have less room to maneuver and camp you to high %s

the ONLY time olimar has a chance is when toonlink has to kill olimar, that will be the difficulty in this matchup because there isn't any specific ways to get in for the kill, while olimar, when he needs the kill, is in the same position, if you get a stock lead you win easily for the most part, the one thing that you must watchout for is that olimar doesn't gain a sizable portion of the stage, if he does he an easily trap you and force predictable reactions, but you have dsmash at low percents if he gets that much, until its time for toonlink to kill/olimar gets huge portion of stage somehow its extremely easy for toonlink to win, heck, when i fought jash, he brought me to last game last hit and he doesn't know the matchup while i know it greatly

Hyro · Jul 3, 2009

Near952 said:
like we can spam Nair-> and AC and do decent, he can spam grabs and smashes and do better

and as for Dsmash, good luck getting a good oli to walk into it lol.

No...no he can't spam grabs and smashes and do better. Using nair to arrow PREVENTS you from getting anywhere NEAR his grab range and smashes. That's the whole point of this matchup. And dsmash DOES work.

You can take him to a dsmash stage such as yoshi's or lylats.

And there's this thing in the game. When you airdodge and hit the ground, you can buffer your move on the earliest frame possible.

Plank the edges. The olimar will most like try to spam fsmash offstage which won't work. Drop, jump, airdodge, dsmash.

Or you can grab release dsmash. Or you can zair to dsmash. Or you can jab cancel dsmash. Get creative. Bair, he pops up, run behind him, dsmash.

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage said:
Also: HyRo, I would like to know how in the world a good Olimar would get hit by a Dsmash under 20%. You standing at the edge just waiting for them to come to you and for them NOT to expect a Dsmash, they could just spot dodge and grab you, VERY easy to punish.Olimar obviously has the advantage. All he has to do, spam grabs, his Fsmash has more rang than ANYTHING you have (except maybe Zair) and he has a WAYYYYYYY easier time killing.

Read up. Dsmash isn't needed to win the matchup, but it's not impossible to hit. I'm willing to get grabbed going for a dsmash. Because you take about 10 percent with a chance of taking their whole stock off. I'm not much of a gambler but I'll DEFINITLEY go for that.

I disagree, he doesn't have a WAYYYYYY easier time killing. He does have it easier but just think about how predictable he is. If your nowhere NEAR him, you won't get smashed for the kill. Other than that, he's only gonna kill you with a grab AND the pikmin needs to be blue. (Or purple with a dthrow). But we're not getting that close, are we

Also, the only reason this matchup is hard is because we have to be predictable. But you can STILL mix it up. Full hop fast fall some zairs. Bairs are very good to. But no matter what, spam the **** outta nair to arrow. That way you can punish him when he tries to punish your nair to arrow. He rolls, you bair. He expects a nair, wait a bit, then zair.

It comes down to skill IMO.

Edit: LOL dabuz, thanks <3 Hy & Buz'd take the win? amirite?

Sosuke · Jul 3, 2009

Hyro, I'll love you forever if you can help me enough to beat SoCal's Olimars.
I think some of them are just too good for me. >_< (*COUGH* RICHBROWN *COUGH*)

Btw, I think its 55-45 Olimars favor, but idk much about the match up, lol.

NearZzz · Jul 3, 2009

Hyrulian_Royalty said:
No...no he can't spam grabs and smashes and do better. Using nair to arrow PREVENTS you from getting anywhere NEAR his grab range and smashes. That's the whole point of this matchup. And dsmash DOES work.

You can take him to a dsmash stage such as yoshi's or lylats.

And there's this thing in the game. When you airdodge and hit the ground, you can buffer your move on the earliest frame possible.

Plank the edges. The olimar will most like try to spam fsmash offstage which won't work. Drop, jump, airdodge, dsmash.

Or you can grab release dsmash. Or you can zair to dsmash. Or you can jab cancel dsmash. Get creative. Bair, he pops up, run behind him, dsmash.

Yes...yes he can. Olimar has the ability to powershield like anyone else in the game.
You play keep away the whole match, like you would against a IC to keep from getting grabbed, i get that. Just like we find ways to avoid their range, they find ways to get inside ours, and we have no 100% effective way to keep him out.

Plank vs Olimar? LOL. thats all.

Im aware of all the things you can do to dsmash a Olimar. And an Olimar will be aware that he can be dsmashed under 20 and get gimped easy, and will play ALOT safer. You will hardly get a dsmash on a GOOD olimar.

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage · Jul 3, 2009

HyRo: Are you forgetting his broken Usmash? Even if you spot dodge it, its fast enough to hit you before your react and spotdodge again. His Usmash is one of the most broken, powerful, wannabe Snake's Utilt move in the game. Also they can do it out of a shield (if they have tap jump on) and if you hit their shield and your percentage is high, expect a Usmash to the face. And if it is a purple pikmin, you're dead. But I agree on the Lylat Cruise Dsmash gimp. That's the best way to get a guaranteed kill.

PhantomX · Jul 3, 2009

I don't understand how you guys can forget that Oli can throw Pikmin faster than you can do anything, and they do a lot more damage than your crap :\

Hyro · Jul 3, 2009

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage said:
HyRo: Are you forgetting his broken Usmash? Even if you spot dodge it, its fast enough to hit you before your react and spotdodge again. His Usmash is one of the most broken, powerful, wannabe Snake's Utilt move in the game. Also they can do it out of a shield (if they have tap jump on) and if you hit their shield and your percentage is high, expect a Usmash to the face. And if it is a purple pikmin, you're dead. But I agree on the Lylat Cruise Dsmash gimp. That's the best way to get a guaranteed kill.

...wait what? Don't try to spotdodge attacks in this game lol. Shield usmash. And I'm pretty sure he can't usmash your nair OoS. And it's nowhere near snakes utilt. It doesn't have ridiculous range, you need to be on top of him or REALLY close to him...and it won't kill you without the right pikmin...like most of hist moves.

I'll just get a vid up against an Oli as soon as I can.

EDIT:

PX, Nair can destroy Pikmin before they can even do damage. Nair just ***** Olimar in general. As long as people realize the point of the game is to not take damage. As soon as a pikmin touches you, nair right away.

Near, why should we NOT plank vs. Olimar?? LOL does not suffice, I don't see why we shouldn't.

PhantomX · Jul 3, 2009

Hyrulian_Royalty said:
PX, Nair can destroy Pikmin before they can even do damage. Nair just ***** Olimar in general. As long as people realize the point of the game is to not take damage. As soon as a pikmin touches you, nair right away.

It's a good thing you're MK, and can Nair 3 times for each of your 6 jumps, to prevent any Pikmin from doing any damage... oh... wait...

It's also amazing that your nair doesn't stale, always doing the required 12% (or whatever it was again) to kill purples.

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage · Jul 3, 2009

Hyrulian_Royalty said:
...wait what? Don't try to spotdodge attacks in this game lol. Shield usmash. And I'm pretty sure he can't usmash your nair OoS. And it's nowhere near snakes utilt. It doesn't have ridiculous range, you need to be on top of him or REALLY close to him...and it won't kill you without the right pikmin...like most of hist moves.

I'll just get a vid up against an Oli as soon as I can.

PX, Nair can destroy Pikmin before they can even do damage. Nair just ***** Olimar in general. As long as people realize the point of the game is to not take damage. As soon as a pikmin touches you, nair right away.

WTF? What you mean don't spotdodge? Maybe this is the problem. =\
Explain what you mean don't Spotdodge? and when I was comparing it to Snake's Utilt I mean that it has decent range, and the red, yellow, and blue ones have good range and will kill pretty early, before you even hit the 100%. You have no idea how many times a Olimar shielded the first hit of my Fsmash and did Usmash OoS and ***** me really hard to win the match. I hate when that happened so so SO bad.

NearZzz · Jul 3, 2009

Because, if he perfectly spaces, he can drop the pikmin on us, at a safe distance.

IIRC anyway, i've heard it, but im not 100% sure, lol.

And even if they can't, just because you plank doesn't mean your opponent is forced to approach :/

Hyro · Jul 3, 2009

Well in my expierence they approached. If they don't, good, you don't want him near you anyways.

Akid, maybe they can usmash your nair oos, but you can also fast fall your nairs and shiled before they can get you. Yeah, attacks aren't meant to be spotdodged, only grabs are. Spotdodges are so...punishable. Charging smashes, multihit attacks...shielding is so much safer.

Phantom, in this matchup, we're always close to the ground in shorthops, so all we have to do is land and short hop a nair...not too hard. I'm not worried about decaying my nair, just not getting hit. 12 percent to kill purples?? I actually didn't know that, but they don't stick on you anyways. The ideal thing to do is shield a thrown purple pikmin. That's actually the only trouble I would have with Olimar. Purple pikmin will bounce you off the ground, you will airdodge and Olimar will grab your landing. Only awesome oli's do that anyways.

EDIT:

Here's santi SEVEN months ago. This is how I learned to fight Olimar before I even played one. Watch what works and what doesn't work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzTMWLsMCIk

NearZzz · Jul 3, 2009

...I should observe what does and doesn't work from a vid of November 08? :/

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage · Jul 3, 2009

Hyrulian_Royalty said:
Well in my expierence they approached. If they don't, good, you don't want him near you anyways.

Akid, maybe they can usmash your nair oos, but you can also fast fall your nairs and shiled before they can get you. Yeah, attacks aren't meant to be spotdodged, only grabs are. Spotdodges are so...punishable. Charging smashes, multihit attacks...shielding is so much safer.

Phantom, in this matchup, we're always close to the ground in shorthops, so all we have to do is land and short hop a nair...not too hard. I'm not worried about decaying my nair, just not getting hit. 12 percent to kill purples?? I actually didn't know that, but they don't stick on you anyways. The ideal thing to do is shield a thrown purple pikmin. That's actually the only trouble I would have with Olimar. Purple pikmin will bounce you off the ground, you will airdodge and Olimar will grab your landing. Only awesome oli's do that anyways.

EDIT:

Here's santi SEVEN months ago. This is how I learned to fight Olimar before I even played one. Watch what works and what doesn't work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzTMWLsMCIk

Once again HyRo, you win. Lmao I gotta practice against pro Oli's some more. But I'll try your tips dude, thanks.

Hyro · Jul 3, 2009

Near952 said:
...I should observe what does and doesn't work from a vid of November 08? :/

...yeah, you should. That's the point. Olimar limits our game so the most basic gameplay is what we have to revert to. It worked back then, it still does for me.

NearZzz · Jul 3, 2009

Regardless of how he limits our gameplay, meta game changes, the way we play matchups change, and this IMO, is certainly not how you play the matchup.

Especially in 7 months time, the way both tinks and olis play the matchup will change greatly.

PhantomX · Jul 3, 2009

Hey... you notice how Santi starts losing his huge lead when Zori finally starts playing smart and camps and doesn't jump into the air to get ***** by nairs and arrows? Yeah, Olimars are doing to do that the whole game, AND run away, AND hide under platforms.

GOOD LUCK getting that to work against someone who knows what they are doing or as at an equal skill level with their opponent (Zori isn't Santi's level, unfortunately).

Power of Slash · Jul 3, 2009

I've read through your posts HyRo, and I read Dabuz's post.

Even with this, I am still not convinced we're anywhere near having the advantage on Olimar.

While I am shirking back from my initial opinion that it was 70-30, I stand firm with my opinion that it's 65-35 or at best 60-40 Olimar.

I'm probably repeating everybody else here, but I'm seriously not seeing how we're going to get past campy Olimars, where they shut down all of our options outside of Nair -> QD, while they can tack on Damage and threaten us at all points, and we can only prey in if the Olimar makes a apparent mistake.

I'm not just whining about this matchup either, I've seriously altered my playstyle to just straight swordplay + Arrows, and practice with a very capable Olimar(Rust) on a steady basis(well. Did. Haven't played him recently)

We don't really have any long range options except for Nair + QD(Which is pretty punishable, and I saw your mentioning about being creative and doing stuff out the Nair, but Nair seriously feels to sluggish to really do this successfully. The only other option we have from it is Bair. Which functions similarly to Fair -> Nair but, I'm still not seeing how this is enough). The only thing we can do, is pray we get in the Olimars face with SOMETHING.

I even watched that vid of Santi vs. Zori, and P X has a really valid point right there.

I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing what you're seeing HyRo @_@. It's like. Your situations that you're describing describe how we go about dealing with the matchup, but it deosn't really say how we have the advantage. Just because we have some solutions to some situations doesn't warrant enough to give us the advantage when we just have so much running against us. It's like saying we **** MK's glide attack because we can run under and throw a bomb up, so we now have the adv(ok not something to that extreme, but you can get my point from there)

demonictoonlink · Jul 3, 2009

Why would I = hercules...?....
Anyways...If you honestly believe he limits our gameplay THAT much, how can it still be our advantage? The Olimar should be able to read you at all times if you are reverting to the basics...

Power of Slash · Jul 4, 2009

Unless I'm missing a major part of what you're talking about HyRo, that's not enough to deem it 60/40 TL, even with Dabuz himself backing up your assertions, all that's being thrown to us is situations, and how TL deals with those situations.

There isn't really any core form of evidence, that doesn't take player skill into account, that sways the advantage into our direction. Unless SOMEHOW we **** through a major part of Olimars game that's more major than what he does to ours. We do not have the advantage.

Zori · Jul 4, 2009

wow good job posting the only vid i lost in..... im being judge for a video 7 months ago i won the 'set' >_>

Remzi · Jul 4, 2009

100-0 TL

Dsmash, gg.

Lol on a serious note, though. This seems like a very even matchup to me.

Hyro · Jul 4, 2009

Zori said:
wow good job posting the only vid i lost in..... im being judge for a video 7 months ago i won the 'set' >_>

...lolwut? You're not being judged...I know you won the other matches and I realize this is a 7 month old vid...I just wanted to show how it looked when santi did some stuff right

Fino · Jul 4, 2009

Hyrulian_Royalty said:
That's all you need to know.

1. Nair -> Arrow
2. No Bombs
3. Dsmash for OHKO's
4. Don't spotdodge grab releases
5. herkules = dTL

Matchup 60-40 TL

EDIT:

80-20 Toon Link

TOO easy, nair nair nair arrow arrow arrow even dTL could beat one

Lol... if you seriously think this... you're a *******.

Your dsmash is easily tech'able / DI'able... I've done it many times.

The fact that you think olimar uses grab releases tells me how much you know of olimar XD

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage said:
a "decent" Olimar would see the arrow coming anyways and dodge it so it is VERY important to mix it up a bit. Zair is very good for spacing against Olimar but I think his Fsmash has more range, not sure. Bombs aren't really used as much as in other matchups because if you use it with a Pikmin attached to you then you explode.
Olimar obviously has the advantage. All he has to do, spam grabs, his Fsmash has more rang than ANYTHING you have (except maybe Zair) and he has a WAYYYYYYY easier time killing. His only problem is that we can gimp his recovery easily that's why the matchup is 60 - 40 Olimar, if he had a recovery like Sonic the matchup would be at least 90 - 10 Olimar.
XD GGs Toon Link.

After 30 seconds into the match you realize an arrow always comes out when tlink lands.
Zair IS really good in the match-up... however if not perfectly spaced olimar's fsmash will trade hits with it.
If you aerial dodge zair, it will usually get the pikmin off you. Also if the pikmin is latched on your back side you can JCthrow the bomb forwards and it won't explode.
I wouldn't say olimar advantaged. grabs are next to useless not having grab armor and tlink being able to quickdraw. Landing one if nice, though not spamable by any means.
And yes, olimar has a lot easier time killing... there's at least a 50% difference in the time tlink is in kill range against olimar, and the time olimar is in kill range against tlink. Past the fact that both have to fight through spam makes it difficult to get those in for tlink... it's a bit easier for olimar since about 1/2 of his moveset is a kill move...

Near952 said:
Plank vs Olimar? LOL. thats all.

Im aware of all the things you can do to dsmash a Olimar. And an Olimar will be aware that he can be dsmashed under 20 and get gimped easy, and will play ALOT safer. You will hardly get a dsmash on a GOOD olimar.

Planking is in-effective against olimar. Olimar's grab box reaches under the stage, so he can pull you through the stage (like scaring the ledge) with a grab. Also his fsmash hitbox lasts for about 36 frames... in other words, he can fsmash off the ledge and hit you. Dtilt also stage spikes on some stages.

dabuz said:
hyro: online this matchup is 70:30 because oli can't spotdodge arrors, bot offline, its 65-35 tinks advantage by far

I stopped reading here... don't listen to dabuz... ever.

Hyrulian_Royalty said:
And dsmash DOES work.

You can take him to a dsmash stage such as yoshi's or lylats.

Plank the edges. The olimar will most like try to spam fsmash offstage which won't work. Drop, jump, airdodge, dsmash.

Or you can grab release dsmash. Or you can zair to dsmash. Or you can jab cancel dsmash. Get creative. Bair, he pops up, run behind him, dsmash.

I disagree, he doesn't have a WAYYYYYY easier time killing. He does have it easier but just think about how predictable he is. If your nowhere NEAR him, you won't get smashed for the kill. Other than that, he's only gonna kill you with a grab AND the pikmin needs to be blue. (Or purple with a dthrow). But we're not getting that close, are we

It comes down to skill IMO.

Knowing what tlinks downsmash does... why would we EVER approach tlink at the edge below 25%?
Also, here's is the problem with your plank to dsmash strategy. You assume olimar just stands there like a moron while you aerial dodge into the ground and dsmash.
SHAD - aerial dodge into the ground and then buffer a move so that it becomes available on the first possible frame. Of course you have to buffer the move during the aerial dodge... which for tlink starts on frame 4. The first hit on your downsmash starts on frame 9. 13 frames before you can instant hit your move... assuming a perfect buffer, and disregarding airtime (I'm being quite generous). That leaves you vulnerable from frames 5-12.
Every single attack olimar has can punish this move (with according frame data from the olimar forums). The only moves slow enough to not be able to punish this would be a grounded tether (which is a horrible idea in the first place).

Again, this is assuming a PERFECT buffer AND direguarding airtime... you think you're really going to pull this off?

Zair to dsmash and grab release (lol grabbing and then doing a grab release) won't work either.

Also... doesn't the same go for killing apply to tlink? Your best kill moves (to the best of my knowledge) are usmash and utilt. dsmash and fsmash and uair are killers.... but rules apply to our purple uthrow.

sasukebowser said:
I think some of them are just too good for me. >_< (*COUGH* RICHBROWN *COUGH*)

Btw, I think its 55-45 Olimars favor, but idk much about the match up, lol.

From what I hear about socal olimars.... richbrown is super pro... though you *******s never give us vids <.<
I'll agree to that match-up... 55-45 olimar to 50-50

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage said:
HyRo: Are you forgetting his broken Usmash? Even if you spot dodge it, its fast enough to hit you before your react and spotdodge again. His Usmash is one of the most broken, powerful, wannabe Snake's Utilt move in the game. Also they can do it out of a shield (if they have tap jump on) and if you hit their shield and your percentage is high, expect a Usmash to the face. And if it is a purple pikmin, you're dead. But I agree on the Lylat Cruise Dsmash gimp. That's the best way to get a guaranteed kill.

usmash to dsmash is a spot dodge punisher... and to my knowledge tlink can avoid it. Your spot dodge is 22 frames long. Our dsmash will hit you at your vulnerability by frame 20... sade fact is... if you spot dodge on the EXACT frame that our dsmash comes out it will still hit you since the hitbox lasts for 28 frames. The Upsmash lasting for 26 frames. The fsmash lasting for 36 frames.... either way our c-stick outlasts your dodge ._. It's kinda gay =-/

For the record... snakes utilt is an olimar upsmash wannabe (hitbox is bigger and kills faster).

PhantomX said:
I don't understand how you guys can forget that Oli can throw Pikmin faster than you can do anything, and they do a lot more damage than your crap :\

Truefax... that's why aggressive tlink does better in this match-up.

Hyrulian_Royalty said:
...wait what? Don't try to spotdodge attacks in this game lol. Shield usmash. And I'm pretty sure he can't usmash your nair OoS. And it's nowhere near snakes utilt. It doesn't have ridiculous range, you need to be on top of him or REALLY close to him...and it won't kill you without the right pikmin...like most of hist moves.

I'll just get a vid up against an Oli as soon as I can.

EDIT:

PX, Nair can destroy Pikmin before they can even do damage. Nair just ***** Olimar in general. As long as people realize the point of the game is to not take damage. As soon as a pikmin touches you, nair right away.

Near, why should we NOT plank vs. Olimar?? LOL does not suffice, I don't see why we shouldn't.

You REALLY don't know olimar Lol!. Olimar upsmash is BIGGER than snakes hitbox AND KILLS FASTER. Seriously... you sound like you're blowing wind out you ***... so just stop talking XD.

Purple pikmin usmash's hitbox reaches about an olimar and a half distance INFRONT of olimar and about 2 and 1/4 olimars above him (width wise) and 1 olimar's height above him (length wise) in otherwords... olimar's upsmash is about as big as two snakes put together.

PhantomX said:
It's a good thing you're MK, and can Nair 3 times for each of your 6 jumps, to prevent any Pikmin from doing any damage... oh... wait...

It's also amazing that your nair doesn't stale, always doing the required 12% (or whatever it was again) to kill purples.

14%
blue pikmin are 12%

Hyrulian_Royalty said:
Akid, maybe they can usmash your nair oos, but you can also fast fall your nairs and shiled before they can get you. Yeah, attacks aren't meant to be spotdodged, only grabs are. Spotdodges are so...punishable. Charging smashes, multihit attacks...shielding is so much safer.

EDIT:

Here's santi SEVEN months ago. This is how I learned to fight Olimar before I even played one. Watch what works and what doesn't work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzTMWLsMCIk

Shielding when you land is a bad idea. It's when your opponent lands is the safest time to grab someone. Landing + shield = grabbed. You should always quickdraw your landings so you can't get grabbed.

I love how people post links of some of their best players against not good players. No offense to zori... but I would not base what a good olimar looks like off of zori. At all. Also that vid is REALLY OLD. lol.

Near952 said:
...I should observe what does and doesn't work from a vid of November 08? :/

Oh... I didn't read this yet XD rofl.

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage said:
Once again HyRo, you win. Lmao I gotta practice against pro Oli's some more. But I'll try your tips dude, thanks.

NO NO NO. Don't listen to this kid... he's been wrong on just about every ****ing thing he has said... omg. rofl.... I really hope you guys do take his advice... less tlinks for us to worry about XD.
IMHO though I would rather help you guys so you can help us.

//wall text

Sorry, I saw so many things wrong with this thread I had to go through it all. To be honest I think the match-up is near even. Aggressive toon link will fair a deal better against olimar than a camp spammy tlink, but even then it's hard on both sides (so I've heard).
For the past month I've played with MJG almost daily... and it's a really *****y match-up.

The thing I hate most about this match-up is that tlink can shield grab most of olimar's smashes. Also aerial approaches are limited at best, though still useful (for olimar). In the end, I think olimar's strengths and toonlink's strengths match each other in varying ways. Olimar can kill spam and combo, tlink can outprioritize rush and gimp.

IMHO it's a very even match-up... and one of the most annoying match-ups in brawl.

~Fino

Sosuke · Jul 4, 2009

Richbrown knows some things and some stuff. He ***** a lot. >_>
But I just need to catch up a little tiny bit. >_<

Fino, do you know anyway to escape the purple pikmin throw thing? =(
Where if the Olimar has all purple pikmin (he just needs 2) and can keep throwing them at you? It's sort of like Diddy with his bananas. It's not really a MAJOR thing, but this happened to me in a tourney and i was like, wtffff. >_<
Can you even get out of it? Or is it like one of those things where "you just need to avoid it,noob"?

Power of Slash · Jul 4, 2009

Fino

do you play a campy olimar vs. MJG? If your answer is yes, does he win? If your answer is still yes, then I really should seek advice from MJG.

After speaking with my friend Rust, The only reason I see this matchup as being so bad is generally because idk what to do against a campy Oli. I do find Nair -> Arrow to be effective, but I don't find it to be such an end all be all.

Though Rust did put it pretty frankly for me. If Oli tries that aggressive shtuff, then HyRo has a point cause we generally tear through that. It's really campy Oli that stems the problem, and from what I gather most Olimars play this way D:

(excuse me if I'm stating the obvious @_@)

MJG · Jul 4, 2009

I really don't find this match up EXTREMELY hard as most people are making it out to be

If you try to camp, you will lose because his pikmin will tear you apart. Olimar has enough time and options to come at you after hes tossin pikmin on you to punish you and what not. I believe that the key to winning this match up is to 1) PAY ATTENTION TO THE PIKMIN THAT HE HAS. A lot of olimars do things according to what pikmin they have next. If they have a white pikmin: they will most likely throw it on you, if you are in grab range, they will pummel you because it does 4% damage and then regrab or f smash (best option is to roll away). With a purple pikmin, they will up smash you. This is usually their first response when you are at about 80-90% without DI. If they throw the pikmin at you, it will throw you off ( i find this to be the most frustrating thing about fighting olimar since it completely messes me up and i have to restart with everything). I know my friend fino ( a well respected olimar main) enjoys this aspect about the match up. Up throw kills at around 100% ( im not exactly sure on that). With blue pikmin, I almost always expect to get grabbed and just avoid that first. They will up smash next or basically anything since the blue pikmin are pretty **** good. Yellow and red are just thrown up there...they are pretty good in the air though. 2) Like i said, you cant be campy against olimar. You have to be extremely aggressive. He may out range us but olimar lacks priority, which is something they complain about but they dont really need it XD. Anyways...stay in their face constantly, if this is the case, it should be more like a melee match rather than olimar ****** you completey...off stage i dont find him to be too bad...a good olimar wont let you gimp him easily...so i find that baiting the air dodge or the "air dodge to whistle" (sorry fino :D) will either knock them out of the stage or send them just far enough to end their stock. Other than that, id say that this match is more 50:50 or 55:45 in toonlinks favor.

Fino · Jul 4, 2009

*Double post*

Fino · Jul 4, 2009

sasukebowser said:
Richbrown knows some things and some stuff. He ***** a lot. >_>
But I just need to catch up a little tiny bit. >_<

Fino, do you know anyway to escape the purple pikmin throw thing? =(
Where if the Olimar has all purple pikmin (he just needs 2) and can keep throwing them at you? It's sort of like Diddy with his bananas. It's not really a MAJOR thing, but this happened to me in a tourney and i was like, wtffff. >_<
Can you even get out of it? Or is it like one of those things where "you just need to avoid it,noob"?

Lol... actually in match 3 of a tournament set between MJG and I ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wM208AHGIo )

There is a part where I have three purple pikmin... and I seriously just mindlessly tossed them and was laughing like "har har har, you can't do anything"

On a serious note though... you have to kill those ****ers... they WILL **** toonlink. Olimar's purple pikmin toss is one of his highest priority attacks <.<

Having multiple purple pikmin is bad, one you ca deal with... try to kill them if you can (when returning to olimar is when they're vulnerable... as well as during an attack). Purple pikmin will take 16% before they die... use a move you don't mind staling either.

~Fino

EDIT:

Power of Slash said:
Fino

do you play a campy olimar vs. MJG? If your answer is yes, does he win? If your answer is still yes, then I really should seek advice from MJG.

MJG TAUGHT me to camp. I used to be a very aggressive olimar... and the more I've played his tlink, the more I've learned to camp. Tlink's camp game literally forces you to learn to camp, and by doing so will let olimar win the match-up. If you play a weak camping olimar (as I once was), camp him... but as soon as your camp is even close to being matched, go aggressive. It works. Olimar's camp WILL beat yours, and your aggressive playstyle will match / beat his.
I normally match playstyles, I'll camp if camped and I will fight if attacked... thoguh MJG is currently in the process of switching to agro-link... which I'm not used to yet... give it another week, but I'm pretty sure aggressive tlink is the way to fight

~mjg~ said:
I really don't find this match up EXTREMELY hard as most people are making it out to be

If you try to camp, you will lose because his pikmin will tear you apart. Olimar has enough time and options to come at you after hes tossin pikmin on you to punish you and what not. I believe that the key to winning this match up is to 1) PAY ATTENTION TO THE PIKMIN THAT HE HAS. A lot of olimars do things according to what pikmin they have next. If they have a white pikmin: they will most likely throw it on you, if you are in grab range, they will pummel you because it does 4% damage and then regrab or f smash (best option is to roll away). With a purple pikmin, they will up smash you. This is usually their first response when you are at about 80-90% without DI. If they throw the pikmin at you, it will throw you off ( i find this to be the most frustrating thing about fighting olimar since it completely messes me up and i have to restart with everything). I know my friend fino ( a well respected olimar main) enjoys this aspect about the match up. Up throw kills at around 100% ( im not exactly sure on that). With blue pikmin, I almost always expect to get grabbed and just avoid that first. They will up smash next or basically anything since the blue pikmin are pretty **** good. Yellow and red are just thrown up there...they are pretty good in the air though. 2) Like i said, you cant be campy against olimar. You have to be extremely aggressive. He may out range us but olimar lacks priority, which is something they complain about but they dont really need it XD. Anyways...stay in their face constantly, if this is the case, it should be more like a melee match rather than olimar ****** you completey...off stage i dont find him to be too bad...a good olimar wont let you gimp him easily...so i find that baiting the air dodge or the "air dodge to whistle" (sorry fino :D) will either knock them out of the stage or send them just far enough to end their stock. Other than that, id say that this match is more 50:50 or 55:45 in toonlinks favor.

Everything this kid said is true... and I probably agree with what he said. lol.

~Fino

MJG · Jul 4, 2009

Fino said:
Lol... actually in match 3 of a tournament set between MJG and I ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wM208AHGIo )

There is a part where I have three purple pikmin... and I seriously just mindlessly tossed them and was laughing like "har har har, you can't do anything"

On a serious note though... you have to kill those ****ers... they WILL **** toonlink. Olimar's purple pikmin toss is one of his highest priority attacks <.<

Having multiple purple pikmin is bad, one you ca deal with... try to kill them if you can (when returning to olimar is when they're vulnerable... as well as during an attack). Purple pikmin will take 16% before they die... use a move you don't mind staling either.

~Fino

ugh...that was such **** @.@ i couldnt do anything with those purple pikmin...approaches are almost limited when this happens

Fino · Jul 4, 2009

~mjg~ said:
ugh...that was such **** @.@ i couldnt do anything with those purple pikmin...approaches are almost limited when this happens

To avoid this from happening... I would avoid stages that increase purple pikmin (PPA - Pikmin Pluck Advantage). These stages can be found here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=212786

~Fino

Power of Slash · Jul 4, 2009

Well then my problem lies within lack of skill then. Thus making my ratios a bit invalid.

But I'll chip my thoughts in anyways

55:45 Still Oli imo, I'm still not seeing TL have the advantage here, but I'll leave that up to you guys to decide. everybody will have their own opinion. Either way, both sides tend to dislike this matchup.

HyRo pretty much said to go aggressive anyways I think, it was just kinda. overshadowed by the Dsmash thing(which is shown to be tech'd in Fino's vid), and from my perspective, the TL having the advantage part.

MJG · Jul 4, 2009

Power of Slash said:
Well then my problem lies within lack of skill then. Thus making my ratios a bit invalid.

But I'll chip my thoughts in anyways

55:45 Still Oli imo, I'm still not seeing TL have the advantage here, but I'll leave that up to you guys to decide. everybody will have their own opinion. Either way, both sides tend to dislike this matchup.

HyRo pretty much said to go aggressive anyways I think, it was just kinda. overshadowed by the Dsmash thing(which is shown to be tech'd in Fino's vid), and from my perspective, the TL having the advantage part.

I couldnt believe that he was able to tech it during the tournament but never in friendlies @.@ (my luck)

Sosuke · Jul 4, 2009

Fino, are you walking about the same thing? >_<
I know the purples give pressure and help keep TL away, but I mean chaining hits with them. Like:
purple pikmin throw -> run up -> purple pikmin throw -> run up -> purple pikmin throw ect. ect.
Like that. is that possible to get out of? @_@

Lets just say that Dsmash gimp is amazing if it works? Just like with any other character.
Except the ones with great recoveries. >_>

You shouldn't really FOCUS on getting the Dsmash, imo. Its more of something that just "happens". focusing on it can affect your play and make you so narrow minded... its stupid. Don't do that. Ever. But yeah, getting Olimar off the stage = advantage to TL. Keep that in your head, but don't let it be your #1 priority.

WindMajor · Jul 4, 2009

I'm going for a 65:35 Olimar here...

what do you guys recommend for CPs/Bans?

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