Sonic
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Match-Up Rediscussion #3! Sonic
- Thread starter Steel
- Start date
Go ^_^
Xisin
Smash Ace
I really hate this match-up...
things i can add that may or may not help, i do suck at this match up though :/
once sonics in the air i find i have hard time setting up a juggle trap, it may be due to his weight/phsyics on his fall but thats me. if he Dairs you can treat him like GWs and counter... he'll run into it and your counter will hit him, another option is do what junk told me and thats outspace it with up air.
lil gimmick against sonic is you can grab him out of his spring recovery and he'll fall to his death like snake does.. .cept he has no c4, but sonics will generally try to fair you out of a grab so be ready for that if they sense danger from you. Sonics Fsmash is disjointed and has an invisible hit box on it just inthe front of it, he also likes to pivot it, another thing is he leans back with his fsmash like dedede does during his dsmash in the infamous buuman trap. if sonic dsmashes you can sheild the first hit then punish. if you go up in the air di horizontally so that he'll have a harder time following you up there with spring + upair.
another move to watch outfor is bair... his bair has nice killing ability and he likes to use it out of spindash.
Learn to tell the difference between his spin attacks.. his over b shows jagged lines coming from sonic and will hop up from launch, his down b shows circular pulsating lines and sonic will stay to the ground. neutral b is a called homing attack... but its not homing at all instead it locks on then shoots. lock on happens just before release. Sonic will spin and rise to the air during this.
Also during sonics up smash he has invincibility frames uring his rise so watch that too.
He's... really tough to hit. this match up frustrates me and I'm no expert on it.
things i can add that may or may not help, i do suck at this match up though :/
once sonics in the air i find i have hard time setting up a juggle trap, it may be due to his weight/phsyics on his fall but thats me. if he Dairs you can treat him like GWs and counter... he'll run into it and your counter will hit him, another option is do what junk told me and thats outspace it with up air.
lil gimmick against sonic is you can grab him out of his spring recovery and he'll fall to his death like snake does.. .cept he has no c4, but sonics will generally try to fair you out of a grab so be ready for that if they sense danger from you. Sonics Fsmash is disjointed and has an invisible hit box on it just inthe front of it, he also likes to pivot it, another thing is he leans back with his fsmash like dedede does during his dsmash in the infamous buuman trap. if sonic dsmashes you can sheild the first hit then punish. if you go up in the air di horizontally so that he'll have a harder time following you up there with spring + upair.
another move to watch outfor is bair... his bair has nice killing ability and he likes to use it out of spindash.
Learn to tell the difference between his spin attacks.. his over b shows jagged lines coming from sonic and will hop up from launch, his down b shows circular pulsating lines and sonic will stay to the ground. neutral b is a called homing attack... but its not homing at all instead it locks on then shoots. lock on happens just before release. Sonic will spin and rise to the air during this.
Also during sonics up smash he has invincibility frames uring his rise so watch that too.
He's... really tough to hit. this match up frustrates me and I'm no expert on it.
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
Dtilt, jab, and grab beat out regualr spindash shenanigans, and quite a few others, You beat him in the air and outrange him. Sonic is fiarly hard to gimp, but not impossible. Um... pressure like crazy?
60:40 Marth
60:40 Marth
clowsui
Smash Legend
use a lot of jab in this matchup, sonic's spin tricks often go from ground to air and your jab follows that trajectory
don't really bother trying to edgeguard him, focus on effective ledge traps since most of the time you can beat out his options
a lot of sonics like to do punishments from shield, so just whittle away at ths shield and discourage usage by grabbing or shield breaker-ing
don't really bother trying to edgeguard him, focus on effective ledge traps since most of the time you can beat out his options
a lot of sonics like to do punishments from shield, so just whittle away at ths shield and discourage usage by grabbing or shield breaker-ing
C.box
Smash Journeyman
Learn the difference between his side b and down b.
Side b can be cancelled before fully charged with his shield and an aerial down b can be shiled cancelled meaning if they start an aerial down b and you keep your shield up they can cancel their down b and grab you :/.
Sonic is just annoying to play against since he moves so fast >.<.
Side b can be cancelled before fully charged with his shield and an aerial down b can be shiled cancelled meaning if they start an aerial down b and you keep your shield up they can cancel their down b and grab you :/.
Sonic is just annoying to play against since he moves so fast >.<.
Browny
Smash Hater
Explain in detail
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
Since you outrange him, good Fair pressuring could push him fairly far back, aswell as well placed Bairs. Getting him low and back will still make recovering fairly difficult, especially if he loses his second jump (but then again spindash
)Any predictable springs can get ledgehopped stage spikes, and since spindash has a startup, it can be countered if played right.
ChaosKnight
Smash Master
dancing blade > sonic RAPEEEEEE ......
BacklashMarth
Smash Lord
pivot grab. have a nice day
oh and 65:35 for great justice
oh and 65:35 for great justice
Albert.
Smash Master
I love when people say Pivot Grab as if it's The integral, most amazing, best thing a Marth can do.
YOU MUST PIVOT YOUR GRAB!
(no hate on backlash btw)
YOU MUST PIVOT YOUR GRAB!
(no hate on backlash btw)
DivineFalchion
Smash Rookie
You never really learn how much landing lag you have until you play a Sonic. If you could time D-tilts perfectly, you could shut down virtually every viable approach sonic has. Always expect this to be a very long match-up, Sonic spends like 1/4 of the match doing fake out maneuvers. Don't try countering since Sonic can cancel many of his moves. If you see a spring jump, except a D-air cancelled dash attack (boku style). Normally Sonic is all about dealing lots of damage but has a hard time killing, but against Marth he has hard time dealing damage as well.
Sonic is by nature campy, only rushing in with the generally safe side and down b specials. You can play it safe by doing retreating SHDFs when you see him charging these up. He loves his b-air out of spin dash/charge so be extra careful at about 90% or higher. Sonics also tend not to grab that much because just like Marth, he has a rather effective means of attacking without having to get too close (he's too fast to be punished).
Another popular move with sonic is the spin dash/charge to sped up homing attack. Don't let your shield down so soon when sonic charges you with a spin move. You're too slow to punish him if he hits your shield but if he takes the risk of doing a homing attack, you don't want him hitting you cause you let your shield down too quickly. Often times you'll override him however, so don't expect him to be doing this every time.
Pivot grab can stop the approach but it's really hard to grab him out of his attack. You'd have to have godly timing. It's easier to just do retreating f-airs, and or just shield.
Sonic is most vulnerable when he's charging up his spindash/charge to attack you. Fortunately Marth is a rather speedy character on ground so you can rack up easy damage before he lets his attack go.
STAY UP CLOSE IN THIS MATCHUP.
Sonic is by nature campy, only rushing in with the generally safe side and down b specials. You can play it safe by doing retreating SHDFs when you see him charging these up. He loves his b-air out of spin dash/charge so be extra careful at about 90% or higher. Sonics also tend not to grab that much because just like Marth, he has a rather effective means of attacking without having to get too close (he's too fast to be punished).
Another popular move with sonic is the spin dash/charge to sped up homing attack. Don't let your shield down so soon when sonic charges you with a spin move. You're too slow to punish him if he hits your shield but if he takes the risk of doing a homing attack, you don't want him hitting you cause you let your shield down too quickly. Often times you'll override him however, so don't expect him to be doing this every time.
Pivot grab can stop the approach but it's really hard to grab him out of his attack. You'd have to have godly timing. It's easier to just do retreating f-airs, and or just shield.
Sonic is most vulnerable when he's charging up his spindash/charge to attack you. Fortunately Marth is a rather speedy character on ground so you can rack up easy damage before he lets his attack go.
STAY UP CLOSE IN THIS MATCHUP.
BacklashMarth
Smash Lord
I suppose i should elaborate about the pivot thing. Yes its good for punishing sonic if he does a dash attack, spin dash, or spin charge. Sure, retreating fair is just as good since you can jab or dtilt once you land or w/e but you dont have to give up so much ground if you walk towards sonic and wait for him to try some rush approach only to get pivot grabbed(not to mention he wont be able to aim for lannding lag because you arent er... landing). Its not like you cant jab or dtilt after a whiffed grab if sonic cancels a dash. Pretty much im trying to say the grab is useful for shutting down sonics "safe" approaches. That all being said, im probably a bit biased on the pivot grab on sonic cuz i find it funny when i go ICs and use it to systematically have my way with him.
Browny
Smash Hater
Everything DivineFalcion said is not applicable
Rukkiko do you know what a Spinshot is? Its used to recover. I get the feeling you have never seen it before
Rukkiko do you know what a Spinshot is? Its used to recover. I get the feeling you have never seen it before
we need better input guys, no offense lol
WhitePrince
Smash Rookie
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- Jun 27, 2009
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dude one thing that some sonics (noobs) do is they run under finall destination and spam b so they hit the bottom of fd and can use b again. I played a noob like that at tourney and we were both on last life so he just kept doing that till sudden death and than he did that the whole freaking sudden death. Annoying
Albert.
Smash Master
Never post in a match-up thread again.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
Ok here's my take on Sonic based on wifi matches with socal's best sonic. *cries* Obviously don't expect too much from this.
Basically, don't jump into the ****. Playing this game is just a god **** pain in the ***. Dtilt covers ground approaches and utilt covers aerial approaches and crossups at short range. As CK said, dancing blade is also pretty nice but honestly, it just FEELS punishable when Sonic is faking you out literally half the time he approaches with spin dash then punishes you by jumping over you while you're stuck in dancing blades. IASA jab->dtilt->jab->dtilt is also pretty nice.
Ultimately, Sonic is going to try and mindgame you into commiting to an attack, then punishing you. You can either try one of your options and hope you picked the right one or you can bait him to commit to something and punish him instead. Still, this is our advantage because really, we can cover most of his approach options with dtilt and utilt/jab.
And just don't bother trying to punish the dash attack. Just don't....
Basically, don't jump into the ****. Playing this game is just a god **** pain in the ***. Dtilt covers ground approaches and utilt covers aerial approaches and crossups at short range. As CK said, dancing blade is also pretty nice but honestly, it just FEELS punishable when Sonic is faking you out literally half the time he approaches with spin dash then punishes you by jumping over you while you're stuck in dancing blades. IASA jab->dtilt->jab->dtilt is also pretty nice.
Ultimately, Sonic is going to try and mindgame you into commiting to an attack, then punishing you. You can either try one of your options and hope you picked the right one or you can bait him to commit to something and punish him instead. Still, this is our advantage because really, we can cover most of his approach options with dtilt and utilt/jab.
And just don't bother trying to punish the dash attack. Just don't....
JMan8891
Halfrican-American
Thats Home Stalling
...
.....
And was likkey banned at your tourney
...
.....
And was likkey banned at your tourney
Katakiri
LV 20
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Not exactly sure how much of an influence I can have on this discussion, but here it goes.
Marth as always been a pretty even match-up for me. But I rarely lose to one though. I'm not saying it's in Sonic's favor, but I've learned how to play against Marth. And honestly, a lot of you Marth mains sound like a freebie in a tourney for me. No offense.
I can tell there's a good number of legit Marth mains in this discussion, but the way some of you others are talking...well, it sounds like you've been going off data instead of actual match-up experience. It looks like most of you don't understand how versatile Sonic can be.
DJ has a point there too. Spin Shot basically is the equivalent of Mewtwo's teleport in Melee, but you can do any move while teleporting. Basically, while you're sitting there waiting for Sonic to use his Spring, Sonic will suddenly jump at you with his running speed in mid-air to say "O HAI!" and B-Air you in the face before can say "F-Air spam". You'll learn to expect it as the match goes on, but until you do.....that's pretty much what happens.
Now I'm not sure if you know this, but when Marth's spaming D-Tilt trying to stop a Spin Dash, the chances of actually stopping him is about 25/75. This is based off data and experience. Even Snake's jab only has a 50/50 chance at stopping it. IT'S A FAST ATTACK! FASTER THAN YOUR D-TILT!
I just tested this while typing this. (1/4th speed & timers. Didn't feel like using hacks):
Spin Dash is in your D-Tilt's range for roughly 4 or 5 frames before it hits you (estimate). Your whole D-Tilt animation is 47 frames long with only 6 frames with hit boxes.
Marth's D-Tilt does 9% while Sonic's Spin Dash to SD2 combo does 17%. (28% if we decide to Up-Air)
For a character that likes to play it safe with spacing, you sure like to take big risks, huh?
I guess that's enough picking on the scrub Marths. Now I'll talk to the Marths that know what the hell they're talking about.
Honestly, the reason I think this match-up is so even, is that against good Sonics & good Marths, it's pretty much a big spacing war. Marth spaces with his sword & Sonic spaces with his speed. (or Shield Dancing if you're me ;P)
If you've ever been in a good Marth vs Sonic match, you know what I'm talking about. It actually resembles sumo wrestling. One's on the offense while the other tries to push their way back toward the middle of the stage. Then they reverse roles.
Sonic relies pretty heavily on punishing Marth's lag. But, Marth relies on Sonic doing something he can punish.
All in all, this is IMO one of the most even match-ups in Brawl. So I'll say 55/45 Marth's favor.
Only because Marth's tippers > Sonic's tipper.
(Yes Sonic has tippers, they just don't stop time like Marth's)
Marth as always been a pretty even match-up for me. But I rarely lose to one though. I'm not saying it's in Sonic's favor, but I've learned how to play against Marth. And honestly, a lot of you Marth mains sound like a freebie in a tourney for me. No offense.
I can tell there's a good number of legit Marth mains in this discussion, but the way some of you others are talking...well, it sounds like you've been going off data instead of actual match-up experience. It looks like most of you don't understand how versatile Sonic can be.
DJ has a point there too. Spin Shot basically is the equivalent of Mewtwo's teleport in Melee, but you can do any move while teleporting. Basically, while you're sitting there waiting for Sonic to use his Spring, Sonic will suddenly jump at you with his running speed in mid-air to say "O HAI!" and B-Air you in the face before can say "F-Air spam". You'll learn to expect it as the match goes on, but until you do.....that's pretty much what happens.
Now I'm not sure if you know this, but when Marth's spaming D-Tilt trying to stop a Spin Dash, the chances of actually stopping him is about 25/75. This is based off data and experience. Even Snake's jab only has a 50/50 chance at stopping it. IT'S A FAST ATTACK! FASTER THAN YOUR D-TILT!
I just tested this while typing this. (1/4th speed & timers. Didn't feel like using hacks):
Spin Dash is in your D-Tilt's range for roughly 4 or 5 frames before it hits you (estimate). Your whole D-Tilt animation is 47 frames long with only 6 frames with hit boxes.
Marth's D-Tilt does 9% while Sonic's Spin Dash to SD2 combo does 17%. (28% if we decide to Up-Air)
For a character that likes to play it safe with spacing, you sure like to take big risks, huh?
I guess that's enough picking on the scrub Marths. Now I'll talk to the Marths that know what the hell they're talking about.
Honestly, the reason I think this match-up is so even, is that against good Sonics & good Marths, it's pretty much a big spacing war. Marth spaces with his sword & Sonic spaces with his speed. (or Shield Dancing if you're me ;P)
If you've ever been in a good Marth vs Sonic match, you know what I'm talking about. It actually resembles sumo wrestling. One's on the offense while the other tries to push their way back toward the middle of the stage. Then they reverse roles.
Sonic relies pretty heavily on punishing Marth's lag. But, Marth relies on Sonic doing something he can punish.
All in all, this is IMO one of the most even match-ups in Brawl. So I'll say 55/45 Marth's favor.
Only because Marth's tippers > Sonic's tipper.
(Yes Sonic has tippers, they just don't stop time like Marth's)
Xisin
Smash Ace
dear god thank you, I'm so tired of marths bringing up d-tilt against sonic as if were the end all be all with this match up. I knew I wasnt crazy in thinking it's not all that reliable with stopping his spinny-ness. Frankly it IS his spinning that annoys the living hell out of me during this match up. A sonic will spend a good 4 minutes of the match freaking spinning in place... and the match almost always goes 6-8 mins. Solutions? the only thing i can think of is good pressure whihc means dont let him start spinning. it's also good to keep in mind most of our moves hit him out of it, whether you should try or not and with what move is up to you... spinning state is just one huge mindgame really. Sonic is just waiting on you to fudge up into lag so he can put some more % on you.Not exactly sure how much of an influence I can have on this discussion, but here it goes.
Marth as always been a pretty even match-up for me. But I rarely lose to one though. I'm not saying it's in Sonic's favor, but I've learned how to play against Marth. And honestly, a lot of you Marth mains sound like a freebie in a tourney for me. No offense.
I can tell there's a good number of legit Marth mains in this discussion, but the way some of you others are talking...well, it sounds like you've been going off data instead of actual match-up experience. It looks like most of you don't understand how versatile Sonic can be.
DJ has a point there too. Spin Shot basically is the equivalent of Mewtwo's teleport in Melee, but you can do any move while teleporting. Basically, while you're sitting there waiting for Sonic to use his Spring, Sonic will suddenly jump at you with his running speed in mid-air to say "O HAI!" and B-Air you in the face before can say "F-Air spam". You'll learn to expect it as the match goes on, but until you do.....that's pretty much what happens.
Now I'm not sure if you know this, but when Marth's spaming D-Tilt trying to stop a Spin Dash, the chances of actually stopping him is about 25/75. This is based off data and experience. Even Snake's jab only has a 50/50 chance at stopping it. IT'S A FAST ATTACK! FASTER THAN YOUR D-TILT!
I just tested this while typing this. (1/4th speed & timers. Didn't feel like using hacks):
Spin Dash is in your D-Tilt's range for roughly 4 or 5 frames before it hits you (estimate). Your whole D-Tilt animation is 47 frames long with only 6 frames with hit boxes.
Marth's D-Tilt does 9% while Sonic's Spin Dash to SD2 combo does 17%. (28% if we decide to Up-Air)
For a character that likes to play it safe with spacing, you sure like to take big risks, huh?
One good thing for marth however in this match up is sonic has very limited options in... killing him. For marth to be so easily juggled it seems a sonic can never achieve this on me for some odd reason, I rarely get killed with u air... probably because its mad predictable when a sonic wants to hit it. So bair? still sorta predicatable as sonics will either do it out of spinny or rar it, pretty telegraphed still. So how does a sonic normally kill me? fsmash as i either get ledge trapped or while I am trying to jump into recover... sad i know. On average i'll live up to 150-180% per stock on sonic.
to sum things up the only thing that makes this match up hard for me is that pesky "spin-state" as i call it. Maybe it is a lack of patience on my part or what not but i think some of you guys need to play some good sonics before you analyze a match up.
meh I really dont feel comfortable posting this since i have little match up experience vs sonic.
ZHMT
Smash Lord
Yeah that spindash stuff is really annoying.
Once you learn what Sonic can do out of it and attack where he will end up (because hes too quick for reaction sometimes) the matchup gets 50 times easier.
I tend to attack above me with uairs a lot more because Sonic always seems to be above me or right in front of me if he misses an attack.
On the ground, jab beats out his spin dash as well as dancing blade, grabs, fair, nair, exc... (Note that I didnt mention dtilt, which seems to be less useful in this matchup)
I dont think the match is **** but its definitely Marth's advantage. Also if you are gonna retreat a lot with Marth vs Sonic, your gonna get ***** really bad here(trust me on this). Also, like Xisin said, if you take a while to approach, this match WILL take 7 minutes or more, and I dont have the patience for that ****. A good sonic will dash grab you over and over with occasional mixups to be annoying if you stand there, keep on him as much as possible, cause he cant do much if hes pressured.
Once you learn what Sonic can do out of it and attack where he will end up (because hes too quick for reaction sometimes) the matchup gets 50 times easier.
I tend to attack above me with uairs a lot more because Sonic always seems to be above me or right in front of me if he misses an attack.
On the ground, jab beats out his spin dash as well as dancing blade, grabs, fair, nair, exc... (Note that I didnt mention dtilt, which seems to be less useful in this matchup)
I dont think the match is **** but its definitely Marth's advantage. Also if you are gonna retreat a lot with Marth vs Sonic, your gonna get ***** really bad here(trust me on this). Also, like Xisin said, if you take a while to approach, this match WILL take 7 minutes or more, and I dont have the patience for that ****. A good sonic will dash grab you over and over with occasional mixups to be annoying if you stand there, keep on him as much as possible, cause he cant do much if hes pressured.
cutter
Smash Champion
If for some crazy reason you come across a Sonic who goes under the stage and just Homing attacks to stall, JUST SPOTDODGE. While you are invincible in the spotdodge, the HA will detect no target to attack at because you're invinicible and Sonic will HA in the default trajectory... which is down and away.
Also, Sonic's recovery is not as easy to gimp as people think it is. I've played competent Sonics in tournament and they have a good amount of mixup options with their B moves as well as a fantastic up B for vertical clearance.
Also, Sonic's recovery is not as easy to gimp as people think it is. I've played competent Sonics in tournament and they have a good amount of mixup options with their B moves as well as a fantastic up B for vertical clearance.
ChaosKnight
Smash Master
come down to md/va and put me against you in first round i wanna see how amazing you are compared to the sonics down here
im a freebie right ? lmao not even AZ can get top 7 in this region isnt he like your best player??
Xisin
Smash Ace
CK your ego is showing and its off topic.come down to md/va and put me against you in first round i wanna see how amazing you are compared to the sonics down here
im a freebie right ? lmao not even AZ can get top 7 in this region isnt he like your best player??
clowsui
Smash Legend
@ck: no, quivo is probably going to move to #1 in the PR judging from what he's telling me
in other news this matchup is really annoying >__>; it's not really quite that simple/easy, even royr lost vs. espy
in other news this matchup is really annoying >__>; it's not really quite that simple/easy, even royr lost vs. espy
ofc royr lost, no marths know this match up
none
its ********, so we just camp him and hope we win.
but just looking at both characters' tools theres no way in hell i'm going to put this at 55 45, though i can understand 60 40.
none
its ********, so we just camp him and hope we win.
but just looking at both characters' tools theres no way in hell i'm going to put this at 55 45, though i can understand 60 40.
**Havok**
Smash Lord
i kinda do, when you see a sonic Dair you uptilt, uptilt stays out so long that it hits it.
When you see that dumb rolling attack that sonic does you can Up-B (no shield) at semi high percentages. Just do it. It stops him in his tracks and forces the sonic to approach in a non gay way which martth can handle.
Abuse side-B to rack up dmg and refresh that upB. Over and over. You'll see the matchup change.
When you see that dumb rolling attack that sonic does you can Up-B (no shield) at semi high percentages. Just do it. It stops him in his tracks and forces the sonic to approach in a non gay way which martth can handle.
Abuse side-B to rack up dmg and refresh that upB. Over and over. You'll see the matchup change.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
Up+b is so easy for Sonic to bait though with that strategy. He does his down b or side b, comes near you and short hops, you up+b and Sonic airdodges and lands behind you while you're helplessly going to land into a fsmash or dsmash. >>
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
lol im not gonna lie i have no idea how to fight sonic.
havent taken the time to learn all his mixups and possibilities.
havent taken the time to learn all his mixups and possibilities.
**Havok**
Smash Lord
i'm pretty sure sonic can't get out of his roll attack if he doesn't hit (or has a certain amount of time) so sonic baiting isn't too big of a deal. The sonic will probably realize that the rolling attack doesn't work on marth and stop using it.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
^really? I'll go over a wifi match I recorded but I'm pretty sure they can jump cancel it whenever they want.
Browny
Smash Hater
To be fair, RoyR was my first competent Marth in tournament, so all I really knew about the match up before it was over, was to not get hit.
Umby
Smash Master
Besides the fact that there are variations to how Sonic can use/stop his "rolling attack," Sonic doesn't really/shouldn't use it as a means of actually approaching anyway. Ergo, if you want to go ahead and attempt to Dolphin Slash his "rolling attack," that's what they were counting on anyway. DS in this manner works best OoS after shielding or when you KNOW that Spin Dash is in a state where it can't be canceled, aka on the ground (barring Jump Canceling). Though if you're sitting on the ground waiting for the attack, all they have to do is hold the charge until you do something stupid.
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This MU is certainly Marth's advantage. However, Marth is not a soft counter. The MU is 60:40, nothing more, nothing less.
Sonic does not get gimped.
MU discussions means we're talking about the highest levels of play. At the highest levels of play, Sonic does not get gimped. He has NUMEROUS options to recover. Let's just try and break this down...
Sonic has two jumps, two spindashes, spinshot, a wall jump, a homing attack, and a spring.
Spindashes cover large HORIZONTAL distances and when Sonic has his double jump, they can be jump canceled in which he can proceed with either 1. wall jump 2. spring 3. homing attack.
Spring covers large VERTICAL distance, and Sonic is the ONLY character in Brawl who can attack and still wall jump out of his UpB.
If Sonic decides he doesn't want to spring, he can even Spindash, jump cancel, then homing attack if you leave yourself vulnerable to it. HOMING ATTACK IS THE WORST OPTION out of all of them, it's a last resort thing. It will work if you don't punish it accordingly, thus Sonic's will use it. If Sonic is ever caught underneath the stage, he can use a homing attack as a desperate reaction to hit the stage (not to stall, but maybe HA 1-3 times) then spring back onto the stage once he positions himself accordingly.
Then we have spinshot. A spinshot is essentially a double jump that allows Sonic to travel in the air at the same speed he runs. This is preformed by canceling a spindash with a double jump during the charge of the spindash. This isn't the safest of options, but it's one of the fastest and is used quite a bit for quick journies back to the stage.
Another thing, Sonic has an incredible momentum cancel. Sonic is also the most middle weight character in the game (actually I believe he's one spot above Mario in term of heaviness, but whatever) and along with proper DI to go with it, Sonic won't be dieing before 120-140% unless you tipper.
Now Marth has a serious problem. Most of Marth's kills come from tippers and edeguards/gimps. It will be very hard to tipper Sonic, seeing as he can simply run around and mess up your spacing, and why should he approach? You don't have a projectile. The one thing you do have is safer approaches. Sonic has very bad approaches...but remember...
SONIC'S SPINDASH IS NOT USED AS A DIRECT APPROACH. IT IS USED AS A PUNISHER.
With that said, Sonic's approaches are generally
-running shield/grab
-SH Fair
-RAR Bair
These are not very useful against Marth sadly, so Marth does best when cornering Sonic or juggling him in the air.
However, Things like SH Fair(with Marth) is not safe. I understand that not all Marth's just SH all day and toss out Fairs, but for whatever reason Marths use it on Sonic from what I see and it's not very safe. Best options are usually out of a full hop.
If Marth tries to SH Fair, Sonic can shield the first Fair and OoS Fair Marth back before he has the chance to dish out a second Fair.
Marth's best tools are probably Uair, Dtilt, and of course...dancing blade. Dancing blade is pretty beast against Sonic.
Let's get back to the offstage thing again. What are Marth's options for recovering? If he's high, he can charge B and do that crazy drift thing (forget what it's called...sorry) which leaves him extremely vulnerable to an attack when recovering due to the ending lag and no hitbox, and he has UpB.
Marth's UpB has one hit and Marth's generally recover low and try to sweetspot the ledge. Sonic does a very good job against Marth offstage.
Something as simple as dropping a spring inbetween Marth's UpB recovery path is an instant spring spike. On top of that, Sonic can go for a Bair stage spike since he's rather vulnerable from behind.
Heck, Sonic can even instant ledgehug Marth pretty simply if you go for the sweetspot ledge. I keep saying this, but Marth's UpB only has one hit as he's rising, but if Sonic grabs the edge when he goes for that sweetspot, Marth will just linger at the ledge and fall do his death.
I've been ranting quite a bit and honestly lost track of thoughts so I apologize if this is a mess. I'll come back later and see what you guys think.
I know I focused a lot on how Sonic can beat Marth and not really how Marth can beat Sonic, but some of you needed a wake up call on what Sonic can really do.
Get this 65:35 pivot grab BS the **** out of here.
Sonic does not get gimped.
MU discussions means we're talking about the highest levels of play. At the highest levels of play, Sonic does not get gimped. He has NUMEROUS options to recover. Let's just try and break this down...
Sonic has two jumps, two spindashes, spinshot, a wall jump, a homing attack, and a spring.
Spindashes cover large HORIZONTAL distances and when Sonic has his double jump, they can be jump canceled in which he can proceed with either 1. wall jump 2. spring 3. homing attack.
Spring covers large VERTICAL distance, and Sonic is the ONLY character in Brawl who can attack and still wall jump out of his UpB.
If Sonic decides he doesn't want to spring, he can even Spindash, jump cancel, then homing attack if you leave yourself vulnerable to it. HOMING ATTACK IS THE WORST OPTION out of all of them, it's a last resort thing. It will work if you don't punish it accordingly, thus Sonic's will use it. If Sonic is ever caught underneath the stage, he can use a homing attack as a desperate reaction to hit the stage (not to stall, but maybe HA 1-3 times) then spring back onto the stage once he positions himself accordingly.
Then we have spinshot. A spinshot is essentially a double jump that allows Sonic to travel in the air at the same speed he runs. This is preformed by canceling a spindash with a double jump during the charge of the spindash. This isn't the safest of options, but it's one of the fastest and is used quite a bit for quick journies back to the stage.
Another thing, Sonic has an incredible momentum cancel. Sonic is also the most middle weight character in the game (actually I believe he's one spot above Mario in term of heaviness, but whatever) and along with proper DI to go with it, Sonic won't be dieing before 120-140% unless you tipper.
Now Marth has a serious problem. Most of Marth's kills come from tippers and edeguards/gimps. It will be very hard to tipper Sonic, seeing as he can simply run around and mess up your spacing, and why should he approach? You don't have a projectile. The one thing you do have is safer approaches. Sonic has very bad approaches...but remember...
SONIC'S SPINDASH IS NOT USED AS A DIRECT APPROACH. IT IS USED AS A PUNISHER.
With that said, Sonic's approaches are generally
-running shield/grab
-SH Fair
-RAR Bair
These are not very useful against Marth sadly, so Marth does best when cornering Sonic or juggling him in the air.
However, Things like SH Fair(with Marth) is not safe. I understand that not all Marth's just SH all day and toss out Fairs, but for whatever reason Marths use it on Sonic from what I see and it's not very safe. Best options are usually out of a full hop.
If Marth tries to SH Fair, Sonic can shield the first Fair and OoS Fair Marth back before he has the chance to dish out a second Fair.
Marth's best tools are probably Uair, Dtilt, and of course...dancing blade. Dancing blade is pretty beast against Sonic.
Let's get back to the offstage thing again. What are Marth's options for recovering? If he's high, he can charge B and do that crazy drift thing (forget what it's called...sorry) which leaves him extremely vulnerable to an attack when recovering due to the ending lag and no hitbox, and he has UpB.
Marth's UpB has one hit and Marth's generally recover low and try to sweetspot the ledge. Sonic does a very good job against Marth offstage.
Something as simple as dropping a spring inbetween Marth's UpB recovery path is an instant spring spike. On top of that, Sonic can go for a Bair stage spike since he's rather vulnerable from behind.
Heck, Sonic can even instant ledgehug Marth pretty simply if you go for the sweetspot ledge. I keep saying this, but Marth's UpB only has one hit as he's rising, but if Sonic grabs the edge when he goes for that sweetspot, Marth will just linger at the ledge and fall do his death.
I've been ranting quite a bit and honestly lost track of thoughts so I apologize if this is a mess. I'll come back later and see what you guys think.
I know I focused a lot on how Sonic can beat Marth and not really how Marth can beat Sonic, but some of you needed a wake up call on what Sonic can really do.
Get this 65:35 pivot grab BS the **** out of here.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Spam D-tilt and F-smash, Sonic will just run into it. When Sonic will use spindash as his approach (which is obviously his only approach) you can outrange him with anything. He has no priority and you can just grab him out of his recovery. When he uses neutral B spotdodge and he will fall to his doom and die. Sonic is a bad character and has nothing going for him. He has no gimp tools (Spring is bad, don't let them tell you otherwise), bad aerials (F-air outranges anything and they are slow) and no way to approach well. He always has to approach because you will always have the lead because Sonic is a bad character. When you do spam F-air, D-tilt and F-smash and he can't go trough. Easily Marth's best MU, 80:20
Xisin
Smash Ace
^ You're bad at trolling.
While marth may have a bad recovery.. he does have mix ups and such that prevent you from spring spiking him... also spring spiking is obvious when a sonic wants to do it. thats leaves ledge hogging which everyone does to marth, we're used to that haha. but ya gimping a seasoned marth wont be easy but possible.
You're also right about koing, seesm to me both chars have issues koing one another unless the marth gets ina lucky tipper via the sonic messing up badly or what not. I've already explained why sonic has issues on koing marth.
Seems to me by now what marth wants to do is pressure sonic into a corner while sonic is constantly trying to make room for himself throughout the match, the more space the sonic has the worse off the marth is.
so looks like the usual stay about a fsmash tippers distance away from the sonic (easier said than done as hes running around the entire game.) Bair seems to be disjointed as well as his fsmash, i've also gone over sonic's invincibility on the start up of his spring and upsmash.
I also agree with DB being one of marths best assets for this match up, that and if you can call a shield grab approach from sonic shieldbreaker does wonders... seems i break more sonic sheilds than anything if they start showing a pattern.
On juggling up air works great... also something to look out for. in order for sonic to cancel out lag from his dar after he uses his sprig.. the sonic must be at the peak of his jump... if he uses it while falling then get ready to punish its lag. and boy does it lag pretty bad if they mess it up. So much so that you could prob punish with a ko move.
I'm agreeing with 60:40 Marth... seems right. But i always walk out of this match up with a headache regardless.
While marth may have a bad recovery.. he does have mix ups and such that prevent you from spring spiking him... also spring spiking is obvious when a sonic wants to do it. thats leaves ledge hogging which everyone does to marth, we're used to that haha. but ya gimping a seasoned marth wont be easy but possible.
You're also right about koing, seesm to me both chars have issues koing one another unless the marth gets ina lucky tipper via the sonic messing up badly or what not. I've already explained why sonic has issues on koing marth.
Seems to me by now what marth wants to do is pressure sonic into a corner while sonic is constantly trying to make room for himself throughout the match, the more space the sonic has the worse off the marth is.
so looks like the usual stay about a fsmash tippers distance away from the sonic (easier said than done as hes running around the entire game.) Bair seems to be disjointed as well as his fsmash, i've also gone over sonic's invincibility on the start up of his spring and upsmash.
I also agree with DB being one of marths best assets for this match up, that and if you can call a shield grab approach from sonic shieldbreaker does wonders... seems i break more sonic sheilds than anything if they start showing a pattern.
On juggling up air works great... also something to look out for. in order for sonic to cancel out lag from his dar after he uses his sprig.. the sonic must be at the peak of his jump... if he uses it while falling then get ready to punish its lag. and boy does it lag pretty bad if they mess it up. So much so that you could prob punish with a ko move.
I'm agreeing with 60:40 Marth... seems right. But i always walk out of this match up with a headache regardless.
Camalange you aren't going to punish Marth's fair with a fair of your own lol
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
I am not trolling, it's truth.
BacklashMarth
Smash Lord
From what i gather from reading the more in depth posts here is that sonic is going to wait for marth to do something and punish it. I just want to ask what sonic will do if marth does nothing? Marth doesnt have to shfair dodge or dtilt if there is enough distance between him and sonic, and its been said that sonic doesnt have approaches that are all that effective or safe. I have played against BlazeKatairi before but i guess thats hardly top level play even if it werent wifi lol.