Rykoshet
Smash Champion
Welcome to the bBrawl matchup change topic. I'm going to lay down a few ground rules so as to establish the intent of the topic and to promote healthy and helpful discussion.
First off: I'm omitting anything that is obviously unchanged. I don't need to hear that your rob or marth still loses to the other, it's blatantly obvious.
Secondly, on the other end, I'm only going to summarize why I believe certain grave disadvantages are as of now unchanged. For example: Olimar is still a 7:3 or 8:2 on Ike. I'm establishing this off the bat. He still can not enter on olimar safely with anything but air dodge and any approach will be shield grabbed and punished severely, Olimar combos ike and the only thing ike has on the matchup is that a grab is a good 90% chance to 0-death Olimar if you understand proper throw followups and the nature of gimping olimar with aether or walk off dair.
Anyway I play 2 characters (Ike and Snake, Snake mostly in vBrawl and Ike predominantly in bBrawl, with dedede and marth on the side in either), and as time progresses I will be providing video examples of matchups that I believe are pivotal, it might just be a previously terrible matchup suddenly becoming more even or an advantage that suddenly is not the case (for example I believe marth now wins the matchup vs snake but I will establish that pierce is far better and familiar with marth than I am with snake, despite the fact that my KO setups are rather creative and don't crutch up tilt except for specific cases)
I'm going to start off with ike. I'm sectionizing the matchups and I'm starting off with
Grave disadvantages suddenly made less so or even.
First up is Meta Knight, other Ikes will tell you that the matchup in vBrawl is 6:4 but I've always seen the matchup as an easy 7:3, Ike loses purely on low % frame disadvantage the second he goes off the stage, as there is no action Ike can make after dodging dair that meta knight cant just dair again. Comitting to a fair at the angle and % that MK would be using that tactic would just result in an SD even with good DI. This coupled with his incredible stage covering speed and ability to wait ike out and act on reaction to most of Ike's moveset and still win, along with his 2 staple on stage killshots sending ike at an unrecoverable angle a large majority of the time. The main changes to the matchup are the fact that ike no longer dies to the arbitrary down smash or shuttle loop, but all in all I think that even with matchup familiarity (which I woefully lack) MK will still win this matchup in a solid but doable 6:4
Matchup Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj_1z8bXc6c (Loss)
Second is Marth. In vBrawl the matchup is written as anything between a 6-4 and a 7-3, with the general recent consensus being a 65-35. I think that marth is very much in the same boat as MK in vBrawl when it comes to fighting Ike. Gimping, while less freebie as dair to dair, comes very easily to Marth against Ike. Coupled with frame traps, a comparable range with a much more effective and fluid zoning game, marth capitalizes on a lot of things that ike cant quite do as well. Ike isnt given the ability to punish marth intantly as most of his moves go seamlessly into dolphin slash, Shielding is ineffective in this matchup as well, it comes down to has a better grasp of spacing and baiting an opponent's tendencies and making marth se the only on-stage move that leaves him open. Punishment vs Baiting, between the 2 swordsmen with few to no ATs, stronger fundamentals and cooler heads prevail.
The main change is yet again the fact that Ike now lives to significantly longer than marth does on average, this was NOT the case in vBrawl as one screw up on the wrong side of the stage was anywhere between a 0 and 70% death. Ike, on the traditional stage, now stands a reliable and solid chance to live upwards of 160 on a regular basis, while marth dies somewhere between 40 to 60% earlier. Again, the very basics behind the matchup still exist, stronger fundamentals and baiting the right reaction will give ike the ability to capitalize on some of the few times marth leaves himelf open, plus his ability to get out to an area where dolphin slash is impractical to use on return gives ike a good ability to return the favor on gimping. I put this matchup at 55-45 marth.
Matchup examples
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gB7U6o1vBBI (Win)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU17Egzb_xM (Loss)
Thirdly is King Dedede. In vBrawl the matchup is considered a 7-3 with matchup familiarity possibility bringing it down to 6-4. To this day I've never beaten a high level tournament dedede in tournament set but I have beaten quite a few high level dededes in some serious friendlies as ike. It comes down to a lot of jab and run tactics and whoring the hell out of spaced bair (that's right, bair, not fair, not nair unless you want to get shield grabbed and subsequently placed in a reality terrible situation.
The matchup changes to basically the same thing except there's a far less dratic punishment for messing up spacing. But bad spacing will lose his matchup for you, simple as that. I'd call it a 55-45 dedede advantage as ike is gven much more freedom than he used to have but smart shelding will shut ike down.
Matchup Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYSVlSKa2Ek (Loss)
Lastly for my initial post I'm throwing in ike's 5th worst matchup, Falco lombardi. I call it his 5th worst match because despite his crossups, faster jab, and amazing camping ability, he is downright terrible at both gimping and killing ike. Some people will disagree with this but I find falco vs Ike in vbrawl, contrary to common perception, to be at the hardest a solid 6-4. Very predictable recovery is the main reason I leave it at this, because he otherwise solidly shuts ike down on stages without platforms. Luckily with eruption ike can bait enough damage or cause enough to himself to prevent being CGed and spiked/gimped. Since the down throw change didnt do much to this matchup on any stage with a platform, I'll state that I believe this to still be a 6-4 on every stage and not just wildly changing on fd, smashville, etc. He still has his on stage advantages on ike, but at high level play this fight is much closer than it seems on paper.
Matchups that may have or definitely have changed but were never terribly bad for ike anyway include but are not limited to: Snake, Wario, Sheik, Yoshi (Ike is one of the few characters that when he says get the hell out with a killshot, yoshi has no choice but to abide), sonic, falcon, ganon, luigi, mario, Ness.
First off: I'm omitting anything that is obviously unchanged. I don't need to hear that your rob or marth still loses to the other, it's blatantly obvious.
Secondly, on the other end, I'm only going to summarize why I believe certain grave disadvantages are as of now unchanged. For example: Olimar is still a 7:3 or 8:2 on Ike. I'm establishing this off the bat. He still can not enter on olimar safely with anything but air dodge and any approach will be shield grabbed and punished severely, Olimar combos ike and the only thing ike has on the matchup is that a grab is a good 90% chance to 0-death Olimar if you understand proper throw followups and the nature of gimping olimar with aether or walk off dair.
Anyway I play 2 characters (Ike and Snake, Snake mostly in vBrawl and Ike predominantly in bBrawl, with dedede and marth on the side in either), and as time progresses I will be providing video examples of matchups that I believe are pivotal, it might just be a previously terrible matchup suddenly becoming more even or an advantage that suddenly is not the case (for example I believe marth now wins the matchup vs snake but I will establish that pierce is far better and familiar with marth than I am with snake, despite the fact that my KO setups are rather creative and don't crutch up tilt except for specific cases)
I'm going to start off with ike. I'm sectionizing the matchups and I'm starting off with
Grave disadvantages suddenly made less so or even.
First up is Meta Knight, other Ikes will tell you that the matchup in vBrawl is 6:4 but I've always seen the matchup as an easy 7:3, Ike loses purely on low % frame disadvantage the second he goes off the stage, as there is no action Ike can make after dodging dair that meta knight cant just dair again. Comitting to a fair at the angle and % that MK would be using that tactic would just result in an SD even with good DI. This coupled with his incredible stage covering speed and ability to wait ike out and act on reaction to most of Ike's moveset and still win, along with his 2 staple on stage killshots sending ike at an unrecoverable angle a large majority of the time. The main changes to the matchup are the fact that ike no longer dies to the arbitrary down smash or shuttle loop, but all in all I think that even with matchup familiarity (which I woefully lack) MK will still win this matchup in a solid but doable 6:4
Matchup Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj_1z8bXc6c (Loss)
Second is Marth. In vBrawl the matchup is written as anything between a 6-4 and a 7-3, with the general recent consensus being a 65-35. I think that marth is very much in the same boat as MK in vBrawl when it comes to fighting Ike. Gimping, while less freebie as dair to dair, comes very easily to Marth against Ike. Coupled with frame traps, a comparable range with a much more effective and fluid zoning game, marth capitalizes on a lot of things that ike cant quite do as well. Ike isnt given the ability to punish marth intantly as most of his moves go seamlessly into dolphin slash, Shielding is ineffective in this matchup as well, it comes down to has a better grasp of spacing and baiting an opponent's tendencies and making marth se the only on-stage move that leaves him open. Punishment vs Baiting, between the 2 swordsmen with few to no ATs, stronger fundamentals and cooler heads prevail.
The main change is yet again the fact that Ike now lives to significantly longer than marth does on average, this was NOT the case in vBrawl as one screw up on the wrong side of the stage was anywhere between a 0 and 70% death. Ike, on the traditional stage, now stands a reliable and solid chance to live upwards of 160 on a regular basis, while marth dies somewhere between 40 to 60% earlier. Again, the very basics behind the matchup still exist, stronger fundamentals and baiting the right reaction will give ike the ability to capitalize on some of the few times marth leaves himelf open, plus his ability to get out to an area where dolphin slash is impractical to use on return gives ike a good ability to return the favor on gimping. I put this matchup at 55-45 marth.
Matchup examples
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gB7U6o1vBBI (Win)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU17Egzb_xM (Loss)
Thirdly is King Dedede. In vBrawl the matchup is considered a 7-3 with matchup familiarity possibility bringing it down to 6-4. To this day I've never beaten a high level tournament dedede in tournament set but I have beaten quite a few high level dededes in some serious friendlies as ike. It comes down to a lot of jab and run tactics and whoring the hell out of spaced bair (that's right, bair, not fair, not nair unless you want to get shield grabbed and subsequently placed in a reality terrible situation.
The matchup changes to basically the same thing except there's a far less dratic punishment for messing up spacing. But bad spacing will lose his matchup for you, simple as that. I'd call it a 55-45 dedede advantage as ike is gven much more freedom than he used to have but smart shelding will shut ike down.
Matchup Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYSVlSKa2Ek (Loss)
Lastly for my initial post I'm throwing in ike's 5th worst matchup, Falco lombardi. I call it his 5th worst match because despite his crossups, faster jab, and amazing camping ability, he is downright terrible at both gimping and killing ike. Some people will disagree with this but I find falco vs Ike in vbrawl, contrary to common perception, to be at the hardest a solid 6-4. Very predictable recovery is the main reason I leave it at this, because he otherwise solidly shuts ike down on stages without platforms. Luckily with eruption ike can bait enough damage or cause enough to himself to prevent being CGed and spiked/gimped. Since the down throw change didnt do much to this matchup on any stage with a platform, I'll state that I believe this to still be a 6-4 on every stage and not just wildly changing on fd, smashville, etc. He still has his on stage advantages on ike, but at high level play this fight is much closer than it seems on paper.
Matchups that may have or definitely have changed but were never terribly bad for ike anyway include but are not limited to: Snake, Wario, Sheik, Yoshi (Ike is one of the few characters that when he says get the hell out with a killshot, yoshi has no choice but to abide), sonic, falcon, ganon, luigi, mario, Ness.
