Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #4: Ice Climbers

Time to start another rediscussion ^_^.





Rediscuss!

I feel like this matchup is 50:50 or 55:45 either way.

With thier grab range, just properly spacing zair and nair can be a huge part of your game. Spacing is the entire matchup for tink, one grab= one stock. Keep your bombs and boomerangs out as well, bombs exploding & returning boomerang will get you out.

ICs have plenty of ways to get you in thier grabs, desynched hammers and blizzards can be a huge problem. Thier nuetral B can make moving on the ground a pain as well.

Up-B grounded can also separate them, but risk>reward, i still attempt it occasionally.

Dsmash under 20% gets rid of nana pretty well, but its very, very hard to land. You also risk the chance of getting grabbed.

Tl;dr
Space.
Keep bombs and rangs out.
Keep them separated when possible.

I think that its even for generally the same reasons near said. It would be our favor I believe, but we are pretty much unable to grab in the match up. One messed up grab is death.

I say it's 55:45 TL in this matchup.

I don't really have trouble with the IC's at all, unless I try and use arrows. Arrows are absolutely horrible unless the IC's are offstage in which they're ok.

Really it's just pretty much bomb, bomb, bomb until you're able to capitalize on the IC's being in the air and such, then you go in and attack relentlessly until A) They reunite in which we rinse and repeat or B) they die.

The strategy we have is simple. I don't really think they have too much on us as far as trying to camp out the grab goes.

Unless I'm missing something I really do believe we have the advantage.

Just jump around a lot and throw bombs down. ICs can't reach us up there unless they up-b, which would be kinda stupid since we can just ibomb and punish, and the bomb pressure should be enough to keep them from punishing landings (or you could just land on the ledge). Obviously you'll need more than this, but this is a very simple strategy to work off and fall back on. Also with enough small hits, they should be taking different amounts of damage so if you go in for a nair, it should separate them pretty well

TL hes a better chance against ICs then most characters.

Alo, LOL at pic. xD

Power of Slash said:

I say it's 55:45 TL in this matchup.

I don't really have trouble with the IC's at all, unless I try and use arrows. Arrows are absolutely horrible unless the IC's are offstage in which they're ok.

Really it's just pretty much bomb, bomb, bomb until you're able to capitalize on the IC's being in the air and such, then you go in and attack relentlessly until A) They reunite in which we rinse and repeat or B) they die.

The strategy we have is simple. I don't really think they have too much on us as far as trying to camp out the grab goes.

Unless I'm missing something I really do believe we have the advantage.

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1- Arrows are not horrible when proper distanced, startup cancelled, and reverse aerialed (or whatever is called when you are facing the opposite direction of ICs and upon landing you throw an arrow towards the ICs. I think every TL knows how to do this, is stupidly easy). ON THE CONTRARY, USE THEM.
2- If the TL knows what he's doing, prepare for a boring matchup (not hard, boring). Both TL and IC. It's a little harder for TL cause 1 mistake = one stock. However, if the TL really knows the mu, almost the same applies for IC due to the possibility of loosing nana.
3- Not just bombs please, that is plain stupid and shows you don't completely know the mu. (Well, me neither but whatever)
4- For you TL people, me as an ex TL main, I'd tell you not to underestimate the MU, nor lose your patience when at it. And definetely not z-air while nana and popo are running towards you.
5- Don't use full hop or short hop all the time, alternate between the two. Cause if not, it gets predictable, which leads into a grab chance.
6- Don't aim back airs to miss as much as in other mus, try to ALWAYS STAY AWAY.
7- Don't throw bombs while jumping stupidly cause they are SO easy to catch that way. Something good to throw ONCE or TWICE maximum in the mu is dash opposite way of the climbers and jump cancel-throw the bomb to them.
8- No, TL does not have the advantage. And it's not because I'm an IC main. I'd call it even, but IC's have a little advantage in some neutral stages.

Sorry if my advices are poor, but this is just my 2 cents. I could write for like an hour about this MU.

Of course, here in Argentina the level is definetely not as high as there in the US, so this is a humble opinion based just on personal experience (and the advice I read from meep in this MY a while ago).

What I mean is, I just posted here cause no other IC posted. Take my opinion as average, but if you want a REALLY good opinion, ask lain or meep. I must warn you though, both of them think that IC has the advantage on almost every MU, especially meep.

Don't arrow cancel against IC unless they're like, on the other side of the stage. Even if it hits one, the other one can still run up and grab you.

Boomerangs are really good. Probably better then you'd think. Bombs are just the best options though. If you're holding one, it pretty much allows you one mistake that won't cost you an entire stock.

TL probably has the slight advantage still.

sasukebowser said:

Don't arrow cancel against IC unless they're like, on the other side of the stage. Even if it hits one, the other one can still run up and grab you.

Boomerangs are really good. Probably better then you'd think. Bombs are just the best options though. If you're holding one, it pretty much allows you one mistake that won't cost you an entire stock.

TL probably has the slight advantage still.

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Even if you hold a bomb, they have at max six seconds before the bomb goes off. That's still a lot of time to rack on damage.

They're not going to grab you just as you grab the bomb

Everyone has basically already stated the obvious. Bombs will make or break this match for toonlink. This match up is indeed boring as your game play will become very tedious. Just mix it up obviously. Ibomb is pretty useful in this match up IMO

sasukebowser said:

Boomerangs are really good. Probably better then you'd think.

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I meant things like this when stating that everything isn't bombs. Yeah, boomerangs are great. Great to aim down, great to aim forward, and returning boomerangs get you out of grabs.

Just something to add, I once accidentally jabbed(or tilted) a returning boomerang when chaingrabbing and wanting to smash up to finish his stock. The guy sucked (as most people here) so he wasn't mashing the controller to fast, and I could get the kill anyway. What I'm trying to say by this example is: Don't EVER, EVER surrender the mashing, even though it's the last stock and you are psychologically tired. EVERY IC misses the timing once in a while, and as an IC main, I must tell you that at least I get nervous when I see someone mashing very fast, so I start to buffer the grabs at low %, which sometimes leads me to screw-ups.

sasukebowser said:

Don't arrow cancel against IC unless they're like, on the other side of the stage. Even if it hits one, the other one can still run up and grab you.

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Something like this is what I meant. You HAVE to proper space them, but it's not as strict as it sounds in your post. For instance, if IC are not running towards you (should happen semi-often), they do not need to be on the other side of the stage for you to arrow cancel.

sasukebowser said:

TL probably has the slight advantage still

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I think it's pretty much even still. But it may slide to an andantage on both sides.



EDIT: I can't believe I missed this

copacetic said:

Just jump around a lot and throw bombs down. ICs can't reach us up there unless they up-b, which would be kinda stupid since we can just ibomb and punish, and the bomb pressure should be enough to keep them from punishing landings (or you could just land on the ledge).

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This is the worst advice ever. Even I with "Argentinian experience" know this.

Oh and this guy gave me an idea for an advice, if you are planning to land on the ledge, try to HAVE a bomb with you (if the ICs are close), and if you do not, beware of IC's vertical grab range. Which is not as poor as their horizontal grab range, AT ALL.


This might soung stupid, but if you play this mu enough you realise this little things in this MU mean a lot. Remember, 1 mistake = one stock if the ic does not mess up.

55/45 Toon Link advantage.

DON'T Get grabbed for the love of Christ! All I got to say. Everyone else said the obvious.

honestly I think this match-up is 55-45 in Toon links favor. Just camp him with arrow,s boomerang, and bombs really. he cant really approach well if you're in the air throwin crap in his face, but remember 1 grab=death so thats the reason this isn't a 60-40. Just space real well and throw crap in his face.

Edit: but for killing him off just try to use more f-air or u-air if you found him above you. Because if you attempt a smash he might shield grab you.

there thats my addition lol

Some ICs mains opinions as in June 2009:

meepxzero said:

if you cant beat toonlink without grabs than it is gonna be an uphill battle. Hes one of the only chars u can go even with just fighting alone since you probably wont land a single grab against them if they camp you to hell.

Just a lot of shielding and waiting for good moments to attack (catching them in uairs when they jump over you) or grab (predicting their second jumps). Toonlinks major weakness is he has a laggy grab so he has to shield pressure the opponent a lot.

If all the toonlink does is platform camp and fulljump throwing bombs below. Expect a really long boring match.

its 50:50 at high level (both knowing wtf to do in the match up) and possibly 60:40 toonlink if u dont know the match up which im sure the majority of ic players dont know.

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(If I were you, I would listen to meep)

Hylian said:

>_>. I think TL's pretty easy honestly. I beat Jerm 2-0 at ozzfest and he used to beat my GW when I mained him.

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swordgard said:

Agreed thar, the most spammiest toonlinks cant deal enough damage before you get a grab off.


6-4 ics imo. Then again, i havent played people like jash D=

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l!nk_aut said:

i agree with meep.

i think you should always stay near tl. even if you get hit by an item he WILL make a mistake and than it´s your chance for a grab. thats how i play tl and it works... can´t beat him without cg´s.

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Gaspa said:

This is the worst advice ever. Even I with "Argentinian experience" know this.

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I don't mean to only do that. Just use that as the base game. We don't want to be on the ground too much, and we always want to have bombs around is all I'm trying to say. We jump higher than ICs, and with platforms that is even better. If we sorta try to camp you from the air, we'll be able to get rid of the threat of your grab game aside from landings. And if we drop a bomb down between you and where we're gonna land, you can't safely run up and grab us before we jump again. Of course that's spacing-dependent and many can get around it, but it's enough to get rid of a big portion of the threat.

It's extremely defensive, boring, and you can get around it if it's just the bombs, which is why we need to add something each time like a boomerang or aerial. Bombs alone won't be able to stave off decent ICs, but it will slow them down and open up some room for our offensive. But we still need to always be jumping and keeping bombs out because that's our biggest counter to the ICs offensive.

If I'm completely wrong as you say, tell me. But explain to me why it's bad advice and what strategy we should instead employ

60:40 TL
bombs are your best friend in this match-up, they screw the **** out of the icies grab game. use them without shame.
Actually, make solid use out of all your projectiles, and kill that Nana. Popo can't even hope to contend with TL.
They're also light-weight, which removes the issue of killing.
I've only faced one above-average IC, but all these tactics worked beautifully. His Ness actually presented more problems, haha.

Yeah this match favors TL.....the only exception is Lain and Meep!

From my experience, dropping bombs from the air is only viable if you are unpredictable with it and if you are smart about your landing because doing the same jump to drop is very easy to read and counter and you will most likely land into a grab.

landing for the edge is a good way to escape grabbing, but I would have a bomb for a quick ibomb when returning to the stage because the IC's can still blizzard or freeze w/e it's called at the edge and I would never come back with a jab cause it can be shieldgrabbed. Also even jumping back on, idk sometimes my IC archenemy gets lucky and grabs at the perfect time right when i jump and that usually leads to a spike by nana.

Mostly what I do is keep boomerangs flying and fly bombs. staying on the ground to camp is useless because you can't out shoot two ice blocks. Arrows are a no go if the IC are close.

Mostly my problem with the IC is screwing up and landing without protection where it's a grab and an additional 50-60% added to damage.

zair just doesn't work unless the IC are recklessly dashing and you are doing a retreating zair. smart IC's carefully approach which means lots of powershielding to be able to move right after.

I don't know if it's just me but I never roll from an IC everytime I roll I get grabbed, I just sidestep and then spin (downsmash works but sometimes can fail, the UP B is just much safer)

On stage pickings I like to pick stages with platforms or anystage that just isn't just straight flat like final destination which is IC and falco haven when it comes to chain grabbing.

That's my 2 cents.

Summary

Slight Advantage 55:45

Best Stage to fight Ice Climbers on:



Rainbow Cruise

Worst Stage to fight Ice Climbers on:



Final Destination

Summary:

The Ice Climbers are a very interesting and good character with a very steep learning curve. Their best attribute is their ability to desynch and of course their ability to turn one grab into death. Ice Climbers will mainly be forcing openings for a grab with their desynchs. Fortunately, Toon Link can be very very difficult to land a grab on...and if that wasnt enough bombs and returning boomerang will interrupt the Ice Climbers in their attempt to infinite. Remember to always have a bomb in hand in this matchup. Boomerangs are very good to use in this matchup too. As a returning boomerang can save you from an infinite attempt. Your goal in this matchup is to camp as much as you can while holding a bomb and being very careful of not being grabbed. You can also camp them in platform stages but make sure to look out for their upair.

I wouldnt advice using zair too much as it is highly telegraphed and can lead into a powershield grab. So if you are going to use zair make sure to space it as best as you can and dont be predictable with it. In this matchup you will want to camp them long enough so that u can kill them with your safe on block aerials like back air and nair. Do not commit to using laggy kill moves for the sake of going for the kill. Remember that at the slightest lag, you WILL get grabbed and if the ice climber player knows what he is doing, he will make that grab a 0 to death.

Counterpick moving stages like rainbow cruise, norfair, frigate orpheon or battlefield as they can mess a lot with the timing of the ice climbers chain grab in the unfortunate even that you are grabbed. Ban flat small stages like Final Destination and Smashville as they make the Ice Climbers have an easier time getting a grab. Also, it is highly recommended that you learn how to mash the controls really quick as it can let you break before they regrab if done fast enough.

TL;DR: Dont commit to laggy moves even more so than other matchups, always hold a bomb, camp them, camp them and learn to mash the buttons very quickly as it can get you of the grab if done fast enough if you are grabbed without a bomb.

Power of Slash said:

I say it's 55:45 TL in this matchup.

Really it's just pretty much bomb, bomb, bomb until you're able to capitalize on the IC's being in the air and such, then you go in and attack relentlessly until A) They reunite in which we rinse and repeat or B) they die.

.

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I luled. That's exactly what it is.

Please don't bump old threads for no reason.