Fox's Framework Complete!!!

Scotu got it wrong in the "Fox user manual", his Up Smash, without a doubt, hits on the 8th frame of execution, I counted, double, triple and quadruple checked, it's 8.
I was lost at this, because Falco's also hits on frame 8, and his seem clearly faster than Fox's.
Well, this is (or could be) because that Falco's up smash has 9 frames of hitlag, while Fox's has 10.
Or that Falco's overall frame-work of his up smash is less than Fox's, but that's speculation, I didn't check that far.
Either way, the hitbox on both of their up smashes appear on frame 8.
Discuss...?

Due to that discovery, I decided to take a look at Fox's attacking Framework.

Scotu sucks, because he never showed to us the full frames of the attacks, just the frame the hitbox appears.
A fast attacking attack can't do much if it gets punished easily. So I have the full frame data of his attacks. I'm new at this, so no flames if I'm a few frames off.

After collecting the frame data, I compared them to Scotu's.

*Hit* refers to the frame that thehitbox appears
Hitlag is self explanatory.
*Total* refers to the frames that goes by before you can put up a shield. For aerial attacks, it's the frames that goes by before you can do Firefox, for aerial recoveries, it's the frames before you enter freefall.
Save for Special Attacks, the shield hitlag of an attack is the same as the hitlag.
Advantage Formula:
Hit + Shield stun - Shield hitstun - Total (- End Lag if aerial)
Knuxrouge's data
Spotdodge
Invincible: 2-20
Total: 24

Rolldodge
Total: 31
Invincible: 2-19

Air Dodge
Total: 49
Invincible: 2-29

Jab
Hit: 2
Hitlag: 5
Total: 16
Shield stun: 9
Advantage: -11

Jab 2
Hit: 7th frame after Jab
Hitlag: 5
Total: 24 (Jab 1 included)
Shield stun: 9
Advantage: -10

Rapid Kicks
Hit: 20th frame after Jab 2, 4 frames between each kick
Hitlag: 5
Total: Derp.
Shield stun: 8
Advantage: None, don't do it.

Forward Tilt
Hit: 6
Hitlag: 7
Total: 23
Shield stun: 10
Advantage: -14

Down Tilt
Hit: 7
Hitlag: 7
Total: 26
Shield stun: 11
Advantage: -15

Up Tilt Hit: 3
Hitlag: 7
Total: 27
Shield stun: 11
Advantage: -20

Dash Attack
Hit: 4
Hitlag: 7
Total: 36
Shield stun: 10
Advantage: -31

Forward Smash

Spoiler

This move is too good, I don't care what anyone says(that means you zhamy)

Hit: 13
Hitlag: 9
Total: 40
Shield stun: 13
Advantage: -23

Up Smash
Hit: 8
Hitlag: 10
Total: 46
Shield stun: 15
Advantage: -33

Down Smash Hit: 6
Hitlag: 9
Total: 49
Shield stun: 13
Advantage: -39

Neutral Air
Hit: 4
Hitlag: 7 weak hit, 8 strong hit
Landing Lag: 9
Total: 40 (good thing)
Shield stun: 10 weak hit, 15 strong hit
Advantage: -42 weak, -38 strong
Forward Air
Hit: 7, then 13, then 19, then 26, and finally 32
Hitlag: 6 first hit, 5 for the rest
Landing Lag: 18
Total: 49
Shield stun: 9
Advantage: From -47 to -15 depending on how many hits connected

Down Air
Hit: 5, 3 frames between each hit
Hitlag: 5
Landing Lag: 12
Total: 49
Shield stun: 10 (each hit)
Advantage: -52

Back Air
Hit: 9
Hitlag: 9
Landing Lag: 15, 2 if autocanceled
Total: 48
Shield stun: 13
Advantage: -50, -37 if autocancelled

Up Air
Hit: 9 first hit, 12 second hit
Hitlag: 4 first hit, 8 second hit
Landing Lag: 22
Total: 49
Shield stun: (second hit only) 11
Advantage: -56

Laser
Startup: 10
Hit: 11, 9 between each shot
Hitlag: 0
Landing Lag: 0
Cooldown: 20
Advantage: lol

Reflector/Shine
Hit: 3
Hitlag: 10
Total: 20
Shield stun: 10
Shield Hitlag: 7
Advantage: -14

Firefox
***Firefox received a lot of complex and confusing research, info in this color is marked for accuracy issues***
Startup: 43
Hit (on Startup): 20, 2 frames between each hit
Hitlag (on Startup): 4
Hit: 43
Hitlag: 7
Landing Lag: 20
Total: 93, 90 if performed on the ground, 94 if aimed at the ground
Shield stun: (After Start up only) 9
Shield hitlag: (After start up only) 7
Advantage: -68, -45 if on the ground
Illusion
Startup: 20
Hit: 21
Hitlag: 5
Landing Lag 25
Total: 61
Shield stun: 9
Shield hitlag: 7
Advantage: -63, -38 if on the ground

Scotu's data
Jab
Hit: 2
Hitlag: 5

Jab 2
Hit: 3
Hitlag: 5

Rapid Kicks
Hit: 9
Hitlag: 5

Forward Tilt
Hit: 6
Hitlag: 7

Down Tilt
Hit: 8
Hitlag: 7

Up Tilt
Hit: 3
Hitlag: 7

Dash Attack
No information provided

Forward Smash
Hit: 14
Hitlag: 9

Up Smash
Hit: 10
Hitlag: 10

Down Smash
Hit: 6
Hitlag: 10

Neutral Air
Hit: 4
Hitlag: 7
Landing Lag: 9

Forward Air
Hit: 7
Hitlag: 7
Landing Lag: 18

Down Air
Hit: 5
Hitlag: 6
Landing Lag: 11

Back Air
Hit: 9
Hitlag: 9
Landing Lag: 2

Up Air
Hit: 10 first hit, 12 second hit
Hitlag: ?, 8 second hit
Landing Lag: 22

Laser
Hit: 10, 10 frames between each shot
Hitlag: 0
Landing Lag: Autocancel

Reflector/Shine
Hit: 3
Hitlag: 10
Cooldown: 17 (basically, the total is 20 still, same as mine)

Firefox
Hit: 21
Hitlag: 5 during startup, 7 on launch.
Landing Lag: 19

Illusion
Hit: 22
Hitlag: N/A

Yeah....

Lol I expected seeing Scotu's eyes burning red, and locking this thread asap.

oh dascoo.

and LOL @ nkb's location

sima matt just won the thread.

I've always wondered about that. It didn't really ever seem like it was that slow to me.

Ive always thought it was frame 8 and thats what I tell anyone who asks lol...
where did I hear that :/

Wow. Fox continues to get faster without additional programming...broken.

SuSa said:

Chances are other things are wrong in the manual then.

Click to expand...

Probably. I'll check into them when I can.

Sorry for double posting, but to catch everyone's attention.
Update

oh dascoo.

das really coo

Do you have the ability to determine the exact frame advantage for Jab canceling?

Eyada said:

Do you have the ability to determine the exact frame advantage for Jab canceling?

Click to expand...

It's character dependant, so I could, but I'd have to do it for each character, which is a no, trial and error it for yourself and see who it works on and who it doesn't.

Fsmash sucks

Xiivi said:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5813164&postcount=1
Get all of this junk. It'd be nice.

Click to expand...

That'll be a chore.
I guess....

haveing the ultimate uber list of everything including frame advantages would be too epic

Is the total frames of uair correct?? I thought it was the aerial with the least amount of total frames and well under 49 frames...

Force Frontal by Chicken said:

Is the total frames of uair correct?? I thought it was the aerial with the least amount of total frames and well under 49 frames...

Click to expand...

At the least, it's 49 frames before you can perform Firefox.

Isnt there a difference between a grounded Shine to a aerial shine?

Yeah, an aerial shine is aerial.

so this should get a sticky...

F-smash sucks... however pivot sliding F-smashes are a-ok.

Forward Smash doesn't suck, you suck at using Forward Smash.

knuxrouge said:

Forward Smash doesn't suck, you suck at using Forward Smash.

Click to expand...

lol, epic


and this info is really good btw, im glad someone finaly went and got all this stuff, were finaly catching up to the other boards : P

good **** knux

Im sorry if im out of the loop but I dont understand the concept of advantages 100%

If a move like the jab has a -10 advantage what does that mean?

Is it better to have -10 than -15 cus lower numbers or? Yeah confused.

knuxrouge said:

Forward Smash doesn't suck, you suck at using Forward Smash.

Click to expand...

points for win

and having a full database of frame data helps a lot more than people think

Acex27 said:

Im sorry if im out of the loop but I dont understand the concept of advantages 100%

If a move like the jab has a -10 advantage what does that mean?

Is it better to have -10 than -15 cus lower numbers or? Yeah confused.

Click to expand...

Advantage refers to how vulnerable you are if "x" attack hits a (non-power) shield.
The lower the number (because it's negative), the safer the attack is.
So forward air is Fox's most safe attack and Firefox is his least.

Ohh ok thanks