Reverse Nayru's Momentum Canceling

Ochobobo · Jul 12, 2009

Apparently Japan just discovered this technique and uploaded the video about an hour ago. Thanks to NinjaLink for posting it in the Zelda Chat. I asked him to post this on the Zelda boards, but apparently he doesn't like using the forums, lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6V4HDXpFIo

It's about 20 seconds into that video. Zelda bairs, and then Reverse Nayru's. This stops her in place and also makes her float backwards towards the stage. She keeps her jump, and also has her back to the stage. If someone approaches her in this position, it's much more likely she'll be able to bair Lightning Kick the character. This technique should make for much easier recoveries.

Only problem is if you fail the Reverse Nayrus, then you'll Accelerate, like the Zelda did in the second Ganon-jab in that video, fly off the stage and die. ( lol )

Thoughts?

SuSa · Jul 12, 2009

The whole "you mess up and you kill yourself sooner" part is distasteful, but it makes you wonder what else you can B-reverse and have this effect.....

but that's ****ing awesome...lol

1st post?

Ochobobo · Jul 12, 2009

Yeah, NinjaLink was wondering that as well. He seems to think it could work with several other characters' B reversals.

And that part about messing up is true though, lol. That's the thing with Zelda for some strange reason. If she fails Teleport Canceling then she falls to her death for that as well. She seems to have the most risky techniques.

Oh yeah, you can also fail this by casting Din's Fire offstage instead of B-reversing, and then die from that, lol.

Just master B-reversing, and you should have a pretty slim chance of dying from this... lol

:mad: · Jul 12, 2009

We were just talking about this on AIM. :laugh:

#HBC | Scary · Jul 12, 2009

This seems really neat, I'll try implementing it into gameplay as I play. Fingers crossed that it works!

-Mars- · Jul 12, 2009

Almost seems like Zelda's version of bucket braking except better. Innocent Roads is legit, he's already contributed a lot to the Sheik metagame. This will take a while for me to implement but once I do I guarantee I won't regret it.

Kataefi · Jul 12, 2009

I had a feeling this would be posted. I need to speak with Ninjalink on the chat because there's a way in which you can b reversal BUT you shift the momentum she does at 0:12 in the opposite direction so she comes shooting to the stage instead of shooting away to the blast lines (when I say shooting, imagine a horizontal nayru's jump), which totally kills her momentum dead as good as or better than GW's bucket.

Saying that though, is this better than standard DI? It would be great to live longer with this...

Ocho don't let anyone think you're not qualified to do anything on these boards because this is good info!

MrEh · Jul 12, 2009

This is great.

Now Zelda can live a little longer before she gets gimped. LOL

TreK · Jul 12, 2009

I've been trying to do that with diddy for like... 4 months :V
I don't get the timing, that sucks

So yeah, ggs to the **** ^_^

#HBC | ZoZo · Jul 12, 2009

Kataefi said:
I had a feeling this would be posted. I need to speak with Ninjalink on the chat because there's a way in which you can b reversal BUT you shift the momentum she does at 0:12 in the opposite direction so she comes shooting to the stage instead of shooting away to the blast lines (when I say shooting, imagine a horizontal nayru's jump), which totally kills her momentum dead as good as or better than GW's bucket.

Saying that though, is this better than standard DI? It would be great to live longer with this...

Ocho don't let anyone think you're not qualified to do anything on these boards because this is good info!

Do want.

Is that with Breversal or wavebouncing?

Kataefi · Jul 12, 2009

I don't know actually :/ I've always thought it was b-reversal but it could be wavebounced. I've seen Sinking do it, where I sent him flying, and he killed his momentum entirely by shooting across the stage away from the blast lines using nayru's.

It's something to do with buffering a direction out of hitstun (what ninjalink discovered to control nayru's at any downward direction from hitstun), then quickly reversing and boosting the nayru's all at the same time iirc.

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Jul 12, 2009

Ochobobo said:
AOnly problem is if you fail the Reverse Nayrus, then you'll Accelerate, like the Zelda did in the second Ganon-jab in that video, fly off the stage and die. ( lol )

I was wondering if that would be the case.

That's kinda lame, but I'll take it. I'll just need to practice.

Kataefi · Jul 12, 2009

Just out of curiosity... can you buffer a reverse nayru's from a bair? because that would make life so much easier in doing this

SinkingHigher · Jul 12, 2009

Hmm, Kat and I were discussing this some time ago when we were trying to imitate NinjaLink's fast-fall Nayrus.

I tend to be really flashy at times, so I know that it's possible to do a B-reversal "love jump" as it were, at the point where you are able to jump, whereas in the video he was doing it at the point where you can use Nayrus, which is apparently much later than you can jump.

Kat we need to find a way to play custom stages online together. My Zelda training course is made of **** but sadly no one else can see D:<

GodAtHand · Jul 12, 2009

This is cool.

*goes to practice*

Zankoku · Jul 12, 2009

Physics theorycrafting.

(12:11:33 PM) Ankoku: I can make a guess as to why it works
(12:12:04 PM) Ankoku: but they all have to do with Brawl devs being dumb and messing around with Havok Engine for no good reason
(12:12:31 PM) Ankoku: Anyway, Nayru's Love is one of those things that alters momentum
(12:12:39 PM) Ankoku: like, visibly alters it
(12:12:48 PM) Ankoku: thing's like Fox Illusion do this too
(12:12:59 PM) Ankoku: and Shine I suppose
(12:13:12 PM) Ankoku: So normally, if you use it when being knocked back a ton
(12:13:39 PM) Ankoku: devs programmed it to add momentum in whichever direction unfriendly momentum is pushing you
(12:13:54 PM) Ankoku: but this is relative to the direction the character is facing
(12:14:10 PM) Ankoku: so what happens if you reverse the direction the character is facing after the vector is set?
(12:14:25 PM) Ankoku: well, it negates the unfriendly momentum completely with an equal and opposite force.
(12:15:01 PM) Ankoku: Which is only possible because of the wonders of Havok Engine and whatever the devs were tripping on when they came up with this weird way of using it

KayLo! · Jul 12, 2009

I can't imagine how many times I'll SD before I get this right. x.x

This is some good stuff, though. Ocho gets more <3s for posting it.

Ochobobo · Jul 12, 2009

This is very interesting.

How exactly can this reversed momentum be accomplished? Sounds difficult, but well worth learning.

Sinking, please go into more detail of how you were able to do this, lol

Kataefi · Jul 12, 2009

As she kicks out to do a bair, before the IASA frames for that move occur can you simply press the opposite direction she's facing and then press nayrus for when the IASA frames are ready? It's basically buffering... I would imagine that'd be an easier way to do this.

Still haven't tried this yet =( Will practise tomorrow. Ocho I had a video of Sinking doing the weird momentum-shift nayru's on frigate, but (now this is gonna sound so cliché), I seemed to have deleted it

I'll try and act it out again and see what I find

GodAtHand · Jul 12, 2009

Just practiced. Its easy and effective! Surviving a Wario Fsmash at 140 on FD is well worth learning.

Not difficult to learn, but a problem might come when you are hit backwards... I can imagine me not realizing it in time and not b-reversing because of it. I guess once the fair comes out instead of bair I should notice and either breverse the correct direction or not do it at all.

omg im so excited I have been waiting for something like this but more awesome... but this will do for now!

I also have a question:

When you are hit to you automatically face the direction you have been hit??? That seems to be happening to me and I was not sure if it was normal or not, I was going to practice being hit from behind but it seems like when you are hit from behind you automatically face the direction you have been hit from. Can anyone confirm this? Since it makes this tech much more useful and easier.

MdrnDayMercutio · Jul 12, 2009

That's a definite Riot.

Kataefi · Jul 12, 2009

Yeah it's true... you face wherever you're hit.

GodAtHand · Jul 12, 2009

I don't think throws count though Certain throws seem to make this have to be reversed... so be careful. And Ace are you as excited as I am? I wish I knew this yesterday...

Kataefi · Jul 12, 2009

Hmmmm... I guess we should identify what throws need to be reversed etc... would make things safer.

Also... when being sent vertically upwards, would the best momentum cancel there be Bair -> immediate nayrus? (considering nayru's fastfalls automatically...)

MdrnDayMercutio · Jul 12, 2009

Am I excited that one of the people I hate playing against can now live longer? No. Am I excited that Riot's gunna start ****** more face in bracket? Yes

And I'd assume it still has to be reversed Kata, becuase if it isn't it'll give you the unfriendly momentum boost in whatever direction you're traveling.

Kataefi · Jul 12, 2009

Alright thanks man, can't wait to try this

GodAtHand · Jul 12, 2009

It seems it still has to be reversed going completely vertical. I don't get much out of doing that though I admit, maybe like an extra 6%... I'll keep trying.

-Mars- · Jul 12, 2009

Ankoku said:
Physics theorycrafting.

(12:11:33 PM) Ankoku: I can make a guess as to why it works
(12:12:04 PM) Ankoku: but they all have to do with Brawl devs being dumb and messing around with Havok Engine for no good reason
(12:12:31 PM) Ankoku: Anyway, Nayru's Love is one of those things that alters momentum
(12:12:39 PM) Ankoku: like, visibly alters it
(12:12:48 PM) Ankoku: thing's like Fox Illusion do this too
(12:12:59 PM) Ankoku: and Shine I suppose
(12:13:12 PM) Ankoku: So normally, if you use it when being knocked back a ton
(12:13:39 PM) Ankoku: devs programmed it to add momentum in whichever direction unfriendly momentum is pushing you
(12:13:54 PM) Ankoku: but this is relative to the direction the character is facing
(12:14:10 PM) Ankoku: so what happens if you reverse the direction the character is facing after the vector is set?
(12:14:25 PM) Ankoku: well, it negates the unfriendly momentum completely with an equal and opposite force.
(12:15:01 PM) Ankoku: Which is only possible because of the wonders of Havok Engine and whatever the devs were tripping on when they came up with this weird way of using it

Why would they program that into the game? Seems like a complete waste of time to me but whatever.

Good to know.

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Jul 12, 2009

Kataefi said:
Just out of curiosity... can you buffer a reverse nayru's from a bair? because that would make life so much easier in doing this

trying to buffer a turn around Nayru's will probably result in either a non-turned artound nayru's.... or a Dins O____O

sasook · Jul 12, 2009

God this stuff is confusing to follow. Mostly the stuff about reverse momentums and love jumping from the first page. I guess I need to see the vid once I get home first.

Kata, you don't always face the direction you're hit. DK's dsmash is an example - you have to do the input for what normally would be a fair (causing her to do a bair) since Zelda is facing the other way.

718_ROOKI3 · Jul 12, 2009

if what Ankoku said is 100% True then i can definitly make this happen with fox, i already have so any different methods of DI'ing but this may take the cake... MAY... verey strong word... i'll look into this asap like 20 minutes from now asap

Kataefi · Jul 12, 2009

So what you're saying is if you could b reverse his reflector which has momentum breaking properties, then it would have the same effect as this? Yeah you should give it a shot! Sounds plausible!

Ah I didn't realise you don't face the direction you hit... I was under that assumption because if you dtilt someone from behind them they turn around and face you. Good to know at least

MdrnDayMercutio · Jul 12, 2009

You do.

You face the direction you are hit from.

DK's DSmash hits you in an X type direction. Where if you're on his left it hits you up and to the right. You're facing DK cause that's where the hit came from, but you get knocked up and past him. I can't think of many moves that do that though(Zelda's Ftilt is the only other one that comes to mind right away.)

EDIT:

To clarify. If Character X hits you and you're launched away. You'll be turned to face X before you travel.

GodAtHand · Jul 12, 2009

For ALOT of moves you do face the direction you are hit, but for a select some (now including some throws and DK dsmash) you don't and would therefore have to reverse your b reverse....

Someone should make a list of notable moves that don't cause you to face the direction you were hit from. Ness' B throw would be good to know.

MdrnDayMercutio · Jul 12, 2009

^ Read my post, I think it'll make more sense the way I clarified it.

Having mained DK I know his Dsmash makes you face him before you're launched, it's just the angle of the launch means eventually your back is to him.

Throws, on the hand, I'm not positive about.

GodAtHand · Jul 12, 2009

lol at me not making sense! ^_^

I knew what I was trying to say.

What about moves like Zeldas Dsmash that have two hitboxes one in front and one in back? What If I run into the back hitbox from the front?

Kataefi · Jul 12, 2009

If you're hit by the back hitbox of her dsmash from the front then you'll still face it, I guess it's just the trajectories that may cause slight differences. This could apply for throws as well, in that it's the trajectory that's the most important thing to note when cancelling the momentum.

Guys... I'm still in awe that this has been found... rofl! I mean.. it's Zelda >.< We're gonna live FOREVER! :evil:

slight overstatement there, but we're gonna live longer =D

718_ROOKI3 · Jul 12, 2009

OK done. Ankoku i never directed a post towards you before so ONE nice to meet you on the boards, TWO thank you very much for this.

It actually does work with fox (not a dramatic difference but its noticable).
With Fox:
Aerial Momentum cancel with Uair then Shine Reverse. Your back should be towards the stage.
I even did:
Aerial Momentum cancel with Uair then Shine Reverse to B reversal Laser XDXD

It's good man i reccommend all fox players use it. so im going to post this thread in the fox boards right now, bye guys

sniperworm · Jul 12, 2009

So is it confirmed that this is actually better than standard momentum cancelling? It's hard to tell from the video but it seems like you actually go farther horizontally than if you just use standard momentum cancelling.

KayLo! · Jul 12, 2009

sniperworm said:
So is it confirmed that this is actually better than standard momentum cancelling? It's hard to tell from the video but it seems like you actually go farther horizontally than if you just use standard momentum cancelling.

(typing on my psp.... excuse the naked color + no caps)

it is. before this, zelda didn't really have a momentum canceler..... the best you could do was FF bair to regain control, then either hold backwards (if you wanted to conserve your jump) or jump to kill momentum. any of her b moves would send you flying off the stage.

this is sort of like bucket/bike braking or pika's skull bash in that she has a b move she can actually use to completely stop/reverse her momentum in a way that doesn't waste her second jump.

Reverse Nayru's Momentum Canceling

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