SuSa
Banned via Administration
In this round of the SS, we started with King Dedede. I got less replies then I was hoping for, but hopefully when the people I have invited see the use of this - more will contribute.
I decided to post this a bit early because I sent out PM's, no ones responded, and only 2 have posted in the group. One of which said they would help when we got to Ice Climbers - whom will most likely not be covered for a few more rounds.
The goal of the SS is to have players who play in tournaments - or are at least active in the scene discuss the matchup. Each round, I will try to invite 2 of the top mains of the opposing character (I was unable to do it this round, however RATED does play Snake and Dedede) so this round is a bit lazy. However, hopefully this will improve for the next round.
First, let's see what our contributors had to say overall.
AIM convo with Afro. Far to lazy to edit through it:
Coming soon:
Stages we feel work best - with reasons why
Matchup Ratios
Quite possibly a flow chart - yea, that's right. I'm talking about a huge - serious - detailed flow chart covering the best options not all options. But the best options. This will make the chart easier to memorize and overall more beneficial.
The FAQ
Q:Why not just use the matchup thread?
A: It is often harder to keep thoughts organized in a matchup thread. Many are afraid of saying every detail due to the general public disagreeing. While the SS Rounds discuss matchups - our intent is also to find things about matchups. Find new things to problems, and improve the matchups.
So why do this?
Our goal is to try and improve our matchups - to do this we must discuss them. Since we are discussing them, why not post our discussion? A side product to our eventual goal (List what we know, then look at our problems, then find solutions to said problems) right now we are on phase 1 of King Dedede. "List what we know" After that, we will then find our problems and attempt to find the best solutions.
So what about the members?
As of now it is an invite only group. If you do not participate, I will kick you out. That simple. I want to keep the number small and I want to keep it organized. It just helps me out....
I decided to post this a bit early because I sent out PM's, no ones responded, and only 2 have posted in the group. One of which said they would help when we got to Ice Climbers - whom will most likely not be covered for a few more rounds.
The goal of the SS is to have players who play in tournaments - or are at least active in the scene discuss the matchup. Each round, I will try to invite 2 of the top mains of the opposing character (I was unable to do it this round, however RATED does play Snake and Dedede) so this round is a bit lazy. However, hopefully this will improve for the next round.
First, let's see what our contributors had to say overall.
AIM convo with Afro. Far to lazy to edit through it:
BadMisterrrFrost (3:05:59 PM): Your guide is mad wrong
BadMisterrrFrost (3:06:14 PM): Respond soon
Invokke08Havokk (3:06:23 PM): What guide?
BadMisterrrFrost (3:06:26 PM): D3 vs snake
BadMisterrrFrost (3:06:34 PM): Alot of that stuff is months behind
Invokke08Havokk (3:06:38 PM): And who is this? It's been a while. lol
BadMisterrrFrost (3:06:40 PM): D3 has answers
BadMisterrrFrost (3:06:42 PM): rofl its Afro Thundah
BadMisterrrFrost (3:06:48 PM): No one knows me im just a snake scrub
Invokke08Havokk (3:06:49 PM):
Invokke08Havokk (3:06:58 PM): Afro Thundah != Bad Mister Frost
BadMisterrrFrost (3:07:02 PM): lol
Invokke08Havokk (3:07:03 PM): That's like Frost Winter or some ****
Invokke08Havokk (3:07:04 PM): lol
BadMisterrrFrost (3:07:13 PM): But yeah yo alot of things in that guide are off
Invokke08Havokk (3:07:21 PM): Also ALL of it was taken from people who go to tourneys.
Invokke08Havokk (3:07:25 PM): I believe I sent you an invite to SS
Invokke08Havokk (3:07:30 PM): to have you input stuffff
BadMisterrrFrost (3:07:37 PM): I dont go to smashboards much lol
BadMisterrrFrost (3:07:43 PM): but yeah let me hit you with the recent stuff
BadMisterrrFrost (3:07:44 PM): like last 2 months or so
BadMisterrrFrost (3:07:50 PM): the reason you dont know is
Invokke08Havokk (3:07:52 PM): Edit it into your post on SWF :x
BadMisterrrFrost (3:07:54 PM): its kept mostly in FL
BadMisterrrFrost (3:08:04 PM): Nah i dont wanna
Invokke08Havokk (3:08:07 PM): or I can copy+pasta this convo w/e
Invokke08Havokk (3:08:08 PM): lol
BadMisterrrFrost (3:08:13 PM): Grenade grab
BadMisterrrFrost (3:08:16 PM): doesnt beat standing grab
Invokke08Havokk (3:08:19 PM): I know that.
BadMisterrrFrost (3:08:19 PM): it only beats d3 dash grab
Invokke08Havokk (3:08:21 PM): It beats dash grab
Invokke08Havokk (3:08:25 PM): Frame data.
Invokke08Havokk (3:08:28 PM): Stand grabs are both 9
Invokke08Havokk (3:08:32 PM): and D3's standing grab has more range
Invokke08Havokk (3:08:38 PM): Shield grab is 11 frames, dash is 13 IIRC
Invokke08Havokk (3:08:46 PM): But his shield grab still outranges us, 80% sure
BadMisterrrFrost (3:08:46 PM): Alright but
BadMisterrrFrost (3:08:54 PM): You have upsmash as a good move to use
BadMisterrrFrost (3:08:57 PM): when d3 is above you
BadMisterrrFrost (3:08:58 PM): thats like
Invokke08Havokk (3:08:59 PM): I spammm that
BadMisterrrFrost (3:08:59 PM): the worse
Invokke08Havokk (3:09:06 PM): really? lol
BadMisterrrFrost (3:09:10 PM): They can do
Invokke08Havokk (3:09:11 PM): Works for me XD
BadMisterrrFrost (3:09:11 PM): a Bair
Invokke08Havokk (3:09:14 PM): I know they can bair it
Invokke08Havokk (3:09:18 PM): but only with a part of the hitbox
BadMisterrrFrost (3:09:21 PM): Nah they can then
BadMisterrrFrost (3:09:23 PM): fastfall
BadMisterrrFrost (3:09:26 PM): and hit you with the last part
BadMisterrrFrost (3:09:29 PM): cuz its a super cool hitbox
BadMisterrrFrost (3:09:35 PM): And it'll hit twice for extra fun
Invokke08Havokk (3:09:35 PM): lol
Invokke08Havokk (3:09:37 PM): It depends.
BadMisterrrFrost (3:09:39 PM): And it always knocks you away
BadMisterrrFrost (3:09:44 PM): of course if they're REALLY high
BadMisterrrFrost (3:09:46 PM): you wont get punished but
BadMisterrrFrost (3:09:52 PM): if they are..like double jump or d3 triple jump range
BadMisterrrFrost (3:09:54 PM): your gettin hit
BadMisterrrFrost (3:09:59 PM): and if they are Double jump range
BadMisterrrFrost (3:10:04 PM): fast fall airdodge to grab
BadMisterrrFrost (3:10:06 PM): to upthrow
BadMisterrrFrost (3:10:11 PM): cuz for some reason upthrow negates mortars to
Invokke08Havokk (3:10:16 PM): WHAT O_o
BadMisterrrFrost (3:10:19 PM): for added fun
BadMisterrrFrost (3:10:20 PM): well
BadMisterrrFrost (3:10:21 PM): iunno
BadMisterrrFrost (3:10:24 PM): dont put that in there
BadMisterrrFrost (3:10:28 PM): maybe it was random but still
BadMisterrrFrost (3:10:31 PM): They can FF airdodge it
BadMisterrrFrost (3:10:38 PM): Dont put the uthrow in there lol
Invokke08Havokk (3:10:55 PM): lol
BadMisterrrFrost (3:10:56 PM): This guy, Ran Ij
BadMisterrrFrost (3:11:02 PM): iunno who he is
BadMisterrrFrost (3:11:04 PM): maybe hes good iunno
Invokke08Havokk (3:11:13 PM): He places now and then from the results I've seen
Invokke08Havokk (3:11:14 PM): mostly top 5
BadMisterrrFrost (3:11:18 PM): Which tourneys
Invokke08Havokk (3:11:23 PM): I'd have to go searching again
Invokke08Havokk (3:11:28 PM): I've just seen him in results here and there
Invokke08Havokk (3:11:34 PM): so I sent him the invite to the ss grou[
Invokke08Havokk (3:11:37 PM): group*
Invokke08Havokk (3:11:48 PM): and Ken Neth beat Rich Brown, SoCal's best Olimar. lol
Invokke08Havokk (3:11:58 PM): So he'll be helping in the Olimar matchup =p
BadMisterrrFrost (3:12:21 PM): He says most d3s arent used to approaching
BadMisterrrFrost (3:12:22 PM): thats pretty lol
BadMisterrrFrost (3:12:25 PM): The reason d3 owns snake is cuz
BadMisterrrFrost (3:12:28 PM): he can approach safely
BadMisterrrFrost (3:12:29 PM): by just walking
BadMisterrrFrost (3:12:31 PM): he doesnt need to dash
BadMisterrrFrost (3:12:39 PM): D3 standing grab beats every snake option on the ground
BadMisterrrFrost (3:12:48 PM): only thing you can do is attempt to grenade camp him
BadMisterrrFrost (3:12:54 PM): but that only works on d3s that dont know how to fight snake
BadMisterrrFrost (3:12:59 PM): That wont work on Co or Seibrik
BadMisterrrFrost (3:13:03 PM): People that know how to fight snake
BadMisterrrFrost (3:13:10 PM): D3 doesnt have to do aerials to win
Invokke08Havokk (3:13:21 PM): We're WC, where a D3 is like seeing a Falcon. XD
BadMisterrrFrost (3:13:29 PM): lol
Invokke08Havokk (3:13:30 PM): We have like 2 WC D3's, maybe only 1
BadMisterrrFrost (3:13:38 PM): And
BadMisterrrFrost (3:13:43 PM): theres no reason to not have a c4 on the stage
BadMisterrrFrost (3:13:51 PM): Like if you get downthrown off the edge
Invokke08Havokk (3:13:52 PM): I NEVER have a c4 on stage....
Invokke08Havokk (3:13:55 PM): I get gimped like ****
BadMisterrrFrost (3:13:57 PM): no
BadMisterrrFrost (3:13:59 PM): your recovering wrong
BadMisterrrFrost (3:14:08 PM): You ahve to DJ back (away from the stage then upb toward the stage
BadMisterrrFrost (3:14:11 PM): the only thing d3 can do
Invokke08Havokk (3:14:12 PM): If I get dthrow, I blow up the C4 and try to recover then DJ
BadMisterrrFrost (3:14:24 PM): thats nto good cuz
BadMisterrrFrost (3:14:26 PM): a good d3
BadMisterrrFrost (3:14:29 PM): will just footstool you
BadMisterrrFrost (3:14:38 PM): I use to do that vs seibrik
BadMisterrrFrost (3:14:43 PM): till i started getting autogimped everytime
BadMisterrrFrost (3:14:47 PM): and
BadMisterrrFrost (3:14:54 PM): he can dthrow
BadMisterrrFrost (3:14:57 PM): run off and fair you
BadMisterrrFrost (3:14:58 PM): if you do that
Invokke08Havokk (3:15:00 PM): lol. I'll do it until the D3's figure it out over here.
BadMisterrrFrost (3:15:01 PM): then your really dead
Invokke08Havokk (3:15:13 PM): The main point is options.
Invokke08Havokk (3:15:15 PM): Knowing them.
BadMisterrrFrost (3:15:19 PM): yee yee i know
Invokke08Havokk (3:15:22 PM): Even if they work 20% of the time, they are still there. lol
BadMisterrrFrost (3:15:30 PM): but you should put in what d3 does to edgeguard snake when he gets dthrown off
Invokke08Havokk (3:15:36 PM): D3 can pretty much **** Snake when he's off stage.
BadMisterrrFrost (3:15:57 PM): D3's main option cover..ers are (after being dthrown off edge) ftilt
BadMisterrrFrost (3:16:05 PM): fastfall fair
BadMisterrrFrost (3:16:12 PM): and of course the ol' jump out and fair/bair them alot
BadMisterrrFrost (3:16:22 PM): if he thinks your gonna DJAD back on he can just stand and grab you
BadMisterrrFrost (3:16:31 PM): or be sassy and pivot grab you for a rewalk across the stage
BadMisterrrFrost (3:16:56 PM): You got the recovery thing tho
BadMisterrrFrost (3:17:15 PM): the best thing to do when d3 is directly above you
Invokke08Havokk (3:17:19 PM): Your ****ed mostly, it's all about mixing it up lol.
BadMisterrrFrost (3:17:21 PM): is grenade/drop/dthrow them
Invokke08Havokk (3:17:36 PM): ^for recovery
BadMisterrrFrost (3:17:36 PM): That way no matter what mixup d3 does you cant get chaingrabbed
Invokke08Havokk (3:17:40 PM): sorry, bit late of response
Invokke08Havokk (3:17:41 PM): lol
BadMisterrrFrost (3:17:46 PM): np np
Invokke08Havokk (3:17:55 PM): So spam dthrow'd grenades rather then mortar? XD
BadMisterrrFrost (3:17:58 PM): yeah
Invokke08Havokk (3:18:01 PM): <3 got it
BadMisterrrFrost (3:18:01 PM): because mortar is punishable
BadMisterrrFrost (3:18:02 PM): its mad slow
BadMisterrrFrost (3:18:11 PM): mmm i think there are new vids of me vs seibrik up
Invokke08Havokk (3:18:14 PM): Your the only purple Snake to talk to me.
BadMisterrrFrost (3:18:17 PM): if not i'll put some up and show you
BadMisterrrFrost (3:18:25 PM): btw its not like mortar is bad its just
BadMisterrrFrost (3:18:29 PM): dont stay on it to much
Invokke08Havokk (3:18:29 PM): punishable.
BadMisterrrFrost (3:18:35 PM): yee
Invokke08Havokk (3:18:37 PM): I only spam it when they try to recover high
BadMisterrrFrost (3:18:41 PM): And mortar on ground to ground battle is good
Invokke08Havokk (3:18:48 PM): FC mortar to HC mortar, then setup traps and go for grabs etc.
BadMisterrrFrost (3:18:54 PM): if you mortar, d3 cant cg you (assuming you dont get grabbed while the mortar is going off
Invokke08Havokk (3:19:07 PM): Yah, mortar's gotten me out of a few situations like that
Invokke08Havokk (3:19:15 PM): but the D3 I face has learned to either avoid it, or time his grabs better. :/
BadMisterrrFrost (3:19:38 PM): Lets say JUST outta snake ftilt range (and im talkin pixels of range) you can upsmash to make w/e you wanna do next safe, if you charge it alil
BadMisterrrFrost (3:19:53 PM): The thing is tho its really hard for snake you can be winning by 2 stocks and d3 can comeback easily
Invokke08Havokk (3:20:01 PM): I know -_-
Invokke08Havokk (3:20:08 PM): I was 3 stocking Rai (it's WiFail, but still...)
Invokke08Havokk (3:20:13 PM): and he ended up winning
Invokke08Havokk (3:20:28 PM): killed me, gimped me, nearly gimped me but I managed to recover... into a forward smash
BadMisterrrFrost (3:20:34 PM): yeah
BadMisterrrFrost (3:20:41 PM): D3 has nasty punishments
Invokke08Havokk (3:20:48 PM): Oh, and walkoff fair is ****ing **** vs some characters.... theres only a specific little circle you can do it in
Invokke08Havokk (3:20:53 PM): but it spikes like every time
BadMisterrrFrost (3:21:03 PM): lol
Invokke08Havokk (3:21:03 PM): if they airdodge, most chars cant recover from it
Invokke08Havokk (3:21:13 PM): MK/D3 can (super high recovieres) but many cant
Invokke08Havokk (3:21:16 PM): just off topic
Invokke08Havokk (3:21:20 PM): but thats the ONLY use I found for fair
Invokke08Havokk (3:21:23 PM): besides water spiking
Invokke08Havokk (3:21:24 PM): lol
BadMisterrrFrost (3:21:36 PM): rofl
Invokke08Havokk (3:21:38 PM): I landed it like 14 times yesterday in friendlies, and 2 times in tourney.
BadMisterrrFrost (3:21:38 PM): bro have yous en this vid
BadMisterrrFrost (3:21:44 PM): called the "Jontech" Snake tech pivot
Invokke08Havokk (3:21:47 PM): yea
BadMisterrrFrost (3:21:48 PM): i've been doin that for like 3 months now
Invokke08Havokk (3:21:58 PM): I commented on it
BadMisterrrFrost (3:21:58 PM): me and chops and seibrik
BadMisterrrFrost (3:22:05 PM): We do it from the edge lol
Invokke08Havokk (3:24:53 PM): if they predict it
Invokke08Havokk (3:24:55 PM): your really ****ed
BadMisterrrFrost (3:25:00 PM): yeah thats the problem with the grenade one after a c4 jump tech
Invokke08Havokk (3:25:04 PM): I just tech > ledge grab, and do it from that
BadMisterrrFrost (3:25:06 PM): its 100% better to jump tech then upb immediatley
Invokke08Havokk (3:25:07 PM): it's a bit slower
Invokke08Havokk (3:25:08 PM): but safer
BadMisterrrFrost (3:25:11 PM): or go for the ledgegrab
Invokke08Havokk (3:25:13 PM): and you can decide other options if you dont want to
Invokke08Havokk (3:25:33 PM): Also tech jump > b-reversal c4 > Up-B is the best.
BadMisterrrFrost (3:25:37 PM): jump tech to upb...like they have to straight be floating righ there to punish
Invokke08Havokk (3:25:39 PM): It doesn't make your momentum go one way.
Invokke08Havokk (3:25:43 PM): It makes it go towards the stage
BadMisterrrFrost (3:25:51 PM): ooo i wont lie i havent tried that
BadMisterrrFrost (3:25:57 PM): tbh these situatiosn dont occur like...ALOT
BadMisterrrFrost (3:25:58 PM): but they do happen
CO18 said:
SuSa said:
Ran Iji said:
RATED said:
Coming soon:
Stages we feel work best - with reasons why
SuSa said:
RATED said:
What can we do about __________?Ran Iji said:
SuSa said:
Matchup Ratios
Quite possibly a flow chart - yea, that's right. I'm talking about a huge - serious - detailed flow chart covering the best options not all options. But the best options. This will make the chart easier to memorize and overall more beneficial.
The FAQ
Q:Why not just use the matchup thread?
A: It is often harder to keep thoughts organized in a matchup thread. Many are afraid of saying every detail due to the general public disagreeing. While the SS Rounds discuss matchups - our intent is also to find things about matchups. Find new things to problems, and improve the matchups.
So why do this?
Our goal is to try and improve our matchups - to do this we must discuss them. Since we are discussing them, why not post our discussion? A side product to our eventual goal (List what we know, then look at our problems, then find solutions to said problems) right now we are on phase 1 of King Dedede. "List what we know" After that, we will then find our problems and attempt to find the best solutions.
So what about the members?
As of now it is an invite only group. If you do not participate, I will kick you out. That simple. I want to keep the number small and I want to keep it organized. It just helps me out....
