Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #5: Kirbeh

TLMSheikant · Jul 15, 2009

Time for another rediscussion.

Go? ^_^

Lobos · Jul 15, 2009

Uh the only kirby experience I have is chu......and he ***** >_>

TheJerm · Jul 15, 2009

I say that its 55-45 TL favor. If we shut down his options with boomerang, and rack up with properly spaced arials, we should be safe. Just dont fmash xD

Asdioh · Jul 15, 2009

It's 50-50 even. Don't argue with me.

Seriously though, it is :[

TL has teh camping ability and teh disjointed sword, with enough power to KO Kirby at like 90-100%. Kirby has slightly better KO ability and no projectiles or sword. Bombs are your friend in this matchup, as is Zair. Try not to recover from below as it can be fairly easy for Kirby to Dair you to your death offstage if you recover too predictably.

I suppose it could be 55-45 in either one's favor, most likely Kirby's. Anything higher than that would make me go ಠ_ಠ

Oh yeah, I agree that you shouldn't use Fsmash. I get out of TL Fsmashes without even trying, since Kirby's light and stuff.
Make sure you do lots of grabs while holding a bomb :D

Lord Viper · Jul 15, 2009

☆ Yea, I don't think it's in Toon Link's favor, Kirby can stop your boomerangs with his attacks as well as your arrows. Unless your running away the whole match and attempt to camp Kirby all match, this match won't be so peaceful for you guys. The kill options for Toon Link would be U-Smash, U-Tilt, F-Air, and N-Air most of the time, I would say F-Smash but you have to punish to pull that off, and it's not easy to punish Kirby in many ways. The best stage you guys can handle Kirby is to pick a stage with little to no activity and make sure you try to ban Jungle Japes, Frigate Orpheon, and Pokemon Stadium when picking Kirby, (or if a Kirby main would pick those stages). In this match up, Toon Link lack of range on most of his kill move would be a down fall to Kirby's range of his kill moves, to add, Toon Link has gimpable recovery when Brawling Kirby. Let's not forget at what percent can Toon Link die to Kirby at most of the time.... which is around 90%. >.< ☆

☆ Match ratio: 60/40 Kirby if you pick his best stages, (Rainbow Curise, Delfino Plaza, Jungle Japes, Pokemon Stadium, etc) 55/45 Kirby on regular stages. ☆

Jash · Jul 15, 2009

55/45 Toon Link, most definitely, we have 3 projectiles to his none, now unless he has a Metaknight tornado or a Marth fsmash tipper.....i don't really think he has much options.

Lord Viper · Jul 15, 2009

☆ I really advice you to watch more Kirby's play, or even look at our boards to find out how he plays, because if having projectiles makes Toon Link the winner, than why don't Samus win against us? ☆

TLMSheikant · Jul 15, 2009

^ Kirby is horrible at approaching. He has one of the worst aerial speeds in the game, has poor running speed and is just horrible at closing gaps. I really think this is kinda even a little in Toon Link's favor but thats just me.

Jash · Jul 15, 2009

Viper JLT4GOV said:
☆ I really advice you to watch more Kirby's play, or even look at our boards to find out how he plays, because if having projectiles makes Toon Link the winner, than why don't Samus win against us? ☆

I played Chudat, i know how Kirby's play. Even though it was only two matches, i won those two matches and it was because i camped him terribly. Samus is slow'er' and tall which sorta prevents you guys from getting Zaired too much. She also has very laggy projectiles unlike our arrows and stuff...you cannot really compare Toon Link and Samus....that is what tiers are for.

NearZzz · Jul 15, 2009

Camp. Hard.
Hes going to **** you up close like Marth does, just not as hard. Always be aware of the fsmash at high percents, its REALLY gay. Never use your own Fsmash, Kirby gets out of it way too easily.

His weight means you can kill abit earlier than usual, but he still has killing power over us. Always be aware of his bair and fsmash, their just really gay.

As far as gimping goes, we have a pretty predictable recovery, and he has the extra jumps and aerials to gimp us easily, We can't gimp him, its Kirby.

Not going to give a ratio, I HATE kirby and it'd probably be biased.

Lord Viper · Jul 15, 2009

TLMSheikant said:
^ Kirby is horrible at approaching. He has one of the worst aerial speeds in the game, has poor running speed and is just horrible at closing gaps. I really think this is kinda even a little in Toon Link's favor but thats just me.

☆ Kirby has too many ways to approach to say it's horrible. You just have to watch how he come's after you to understand. Will he use B-Air, F-Tilt, D-Air, F-Air? You have to be creative to figure out how to punish him with those moves when he approach you. I don't think his Air Speed is that slow, and his Air attacks space very well from being punished. His run speed is advantage, though most Kirby mains don't just run to their opponent most of the time. ☆

Jash said:
I played Chudat, i know how Kirby's play. Even though it was only two matches, i won those two matches and it was because i camped him terribly. Samus is slow'er' and tall which sorta prevents you guys from getting Zaired too much. She also has very laggy projectiles unlike our arrows and stuff...you cannot really compare Toon Link and Samus....that is what tiers are for.

☆ I guess Chudat doesn't play Toon Link too often I suppose if you won by camping him all day. I didn't really compare Toon Link to Samus, I just clam that's what you thought when you made that post of him having 3 projectiles to Kirby's one. Also you can't run and camp forever or you'll become predictable after a few minutes. ☆

Power of Slash · Jul 15, 2009

I believe this matchup really is 55/45 in TL's favor.

Unlike the Marth matchup where Marth easily finds his way into our face, Kirby doesn't really have this luxury. I would think containing Kirby wouldn't be that hard to do, and our projectile pressure actually makes a HUGE difference in this matchup.

Contrary to what one might think, TL isn't really easy to gimp in this matchup, While tether hogging is extremely beneficial to us when in the situation where the Kirby's getting edgeguarded.

Throwing a bit of personal experience in here, but Kirby seriously doesn't seem hard to edgeguard at all.
That being said, I still really hate playing Kirby's as Toon Link.

Sosuke · Jul 15, 2009

Lets not compare Kirby to Marth, please.

Power of Slash · Jul 15, 2009

It's contrasting by example. =o

"unlike"

A note to show how we're advntageous in this matchup is all.

Pho · Jul 15, 2009

Kirby doesn't have a hard time getting inside in my opinion. He can swat away both the boomerang and arrows no problem with his bair, and relying on just the bomb just means he'll block or air dodge. Predicting that can give us an edge I guess, but I can say that to any other character. He also has a grab combo, which guarantees 20%, 40 if you don't know how to avoid it(jump). His Fmash is full of ****, and being a light character, it can kill at low percents. So I don't think Kirby has to do much to wreck us.

I'll invite Percon into this conversation. He's basically my kirby experience.

TLMSheikant · Jul 15, 2009

Ill invite kewk hes my kirby experience XD.

WindMajor · Jul 15, 2009

TLMSheikant said:
Ill invite kewk hes my kirby experience XD.

I got massively owned by Kewk. If there's one thing I learned, it's to never take a Kirby to Lylat Cruise. Arrows don't hit, if you're on a platform and he's below you, he can use u-air and juggle you (or at least me) around for 20 years.

Don't use D-Air, since he can punish it with a down-throw easily. Same applies to any other attack that is very punishable (like grabs, or landing after a Up-B). At the same time, watch for a Kirby's Down-B. It's very punishable.

As usual, bombs are key to winning. Arrows, not so much. Boomerang is effective. Stay far from him always. Grabs are deadly, as well as the dreaded Fsmash. His only long range weapon is his UpB, which is really predictable, and moderately punishable.

CP would be Final Destination, since it gives you a lot of space.

A1lion835 · Jul 16, 2009

Pho said:
Kirby doesn't have a hard time getting inside in my opinion. He can swat away both the boomerang and arrows no problem with his bair, and relying on just the bomb just means he'll block or air dodge. Predicting that can give us an edge I guess, but I can say that to any other character. He also has a grab combo, which guarantees 20%, 40 if you don't know how to avoid it(jump). His Fmash is full of ****, and being a light character, it can kill at low percents. So I don't think Kirby has to do much to wreck us.

Pho knows what s/he's talking about.

Bair DOES cancel out boomerang and arrows, and bombs CAN be defended against like that. Also, kirby arrows are pretty good and he can SHDA. Yes, you can dair us out of inhale, but if we spit you out and you dair, you're just asking for punishment.

Bombs are your most effective camping tool, as TWiNKatGC said.

Sosuke · Jul 16, 2009

The thing you have to do is C-stick down when your being shot out.

If he takes your power, you'll Dair him
If he just spits you out, you're a star so your Dair doesn't happen.

TLMSheikant · Jul 16, 2009

....The inhale stuff is irrelevant...seriously.

Sosuke · Jul 16, 2009

LOL uhhh no, its not.

Power of Slash · Jul 16, 2009

Every little tidbit we can get is pretty relevant.

Can we touch up on the offstage game in this matchup a bit? I'm curious to see others views on it.

BRLNK88 · Jul 16, 2009

I used to think it was 60:40 Kirby, but with the advancements in Tink's metagame, 50:50 sounds more accurate. The only issue is gimps. Even with Tink's decent recovery, Kirby has all those jumps, plus the hammer, which means lots of opportunities to gimp us.
Basically just use lots of projectiles and lots of aerials.

WindMajor · Jul 16, 2009

Power of Slash said:
Every little tidbit we can get is pretty relevant.

Can we touch up on the offstage game in this matchup a bit? I'm curious to see others views on it.

Kirby's recovery is very good, so I would think twice about gimping him. After all, he can do his Kirbycide and get an easy kill. His aerials have good range and attack power as well. You can try to ledgehog him if he's using his Up-B, but you'd have to be quick, because it can spike. If he's coming from high up, beware of his down-b. I don't know if Kirby mains would do this normally or not, but Kewk did it once or twice to me, and it was pretty effective.

Bottom line, i'll just stick to spamming projectiles from the ledge.

Sosuke · Jul 16, 2009

When you're recovering with the Chain, grab the edge with it, and press down to cancel it.
So then the Kirby will probably be Dairing when you WOULD have gone after the chain grabbed the edge (right under the edge), and you'll be too far to the left/ right to get hit.
Then just Up-B.

But this is a pretty good tactic against getting gimped in general. haha

WindMajor · Jul 16, 2009

Anyone have anything on priority? I don't have my wii now, so I can't find out for myself.

A1lion835 · Jul 16, 2009

Wouldn't you buffer a dair out of the starshot?

Also, kirbyciding is something everyone seems to expect when edguarding kirby...I generally like to do it if it's advantageous for me towards the beginning of the set to make them GTFO of my recovery, but that's just me.

Sasukebowser, what happens if we read that and just grab the ledge?

Sosuke · Jul 16, 2009

It wouldn't buffer if you do it right away. There's a semi-large window for doing this. I've learned from playing Asdioh in the past. It's very much "do-able", you just need to practice it a few times. ^_^
LOL I elaborated on that way to much.

If you grab the edge, Then Toon Link can just Up-B and get punished with something onstage. It would probably have to be an aerial though, since you have to wait a second before you can let go of the edge again.

A1lion835 · Jul 16, 2009

Hrm...this is difficult to think of without actually being in the situation lol...what if I reverse-inhaled and spat you out further away from the stage instead of dairing?

Sosuke · Jul 16, 2009

Can't you do that thing out of inhale that makes you go up after you get spit out? @_@
Hold up or whatever? He'll just make it back recovering high or something. TL is GOING to get punished either way when recovering (unless he happens to have a bomb out).

Pho · Jul 16, 2009

BRLNK88 said:
I used to think it was 60:40 Kirby, but with the advancements in Tink's metagame, 50:50 sounds more accurate. The only issue is gimps. Even with Tink's decent recovery, Kirby has all those jumps, plus the hammer, which means lots of opportunities to gimp us.
Basically just use lots of projectiles and lots of aerials.

Going from short hop projectile play to full hop projectile play is NOT an advancement in our metagame. It's just straight up annoying.

Power of Slash · Jul 16, 2009

We do Full hop projectile play now? @_@

Kewkky · Jul 16, 2009

It's 50:50, and I say this with both TL and Kirby at the top of their metagame. TL can set up walls which make it pretty hard for us to get past, even if we powershield everything and reset spacing by powershielding zairs (I powershield everything, never use bair to cancel out projectiles... And I also shield>zcatch bombs and throw them back while approaching). If we DO get in, make sure you do everything you can to get away fast. What TLMSheikant does is go high up, take out a bomb, throw it down, then watch where I move and float to the opposite direction: the bomb makes sure I don't follow him, even if I shield/zcatch/evade it, it's still time wasted on the bomb rather than chasing.

TL's utilt is pretty awesome, it's fast and kills, and so is his usmash... Those should be your most reliable killers, since it makes a hitbox all around you and if we're not expecting it, we die. Don't fsmash, Kirby just floats out of it on his own after the 1st hit. Inhale is useless in this matchup, unless TL is far from the edge, we're 1stock ahead of you, and you can't afford to make an aerial and lose height: that just screams Bair or Kirbicide (if it's your last stock), since TL has a pretty nice recovery, him being floaty and having a longer-reaching upB along with bombs to get him out of freefall and give him another free upB plus zair for the ledge.

Want to pick a good stage for Kirby? I've got great TL experience, and I can assure you that places with moving platforms (aka SMASHVILLE i hate you) can be great for bomb camping... Since bombs are the only projectile that doesn't cancel completely once they hit your shield, it makes it risky approaching even while shielding everything. Lylat Cruise is also another moving platform stage, although not as great as SV, it still does the job well for bomb camping... Just pick stages where you can be out of range and throw bombs with little worry... Unless your opponent also enjoys the stage (I love BF, and I believe TLMSheikant has a far worse time there than in SV).

So, 50:50, and I don't want to give the favor to anyone... TL can make walls where it's tough for us to approach, but once we're in (and we WILL get in), there's not much you can do but minimize damage and hope for the best by attempting escapes from the strings that are bound to happen.

MJG · Jul 16, 2009

Kewky and Pho touched on the biggest aspects of this match up. The only good kirby that I have played was 8 Bits kirby before he quit and I can say that he was able to get around my spam moderately. Once kirby is inside, he will deal a good amount of damage to you. As for returning back to the stage, this is where the match up IMO goes from 50:50 when the match is on stage to 65:35 with kirby's gimping ability's offstage. A predictable recovery results in a loss in a stock.

Would any kirby's actually like to play anytime soon? I have no other kirby's to play since 8 bit quit and im sure i will see some at the MIdwest Circuit/ Supercon in Colorado (Whichever one i decide to attend)

Also, when I played 8 bits kirby, he would sometimes just duck underneath my zair @.@

Kewkky · Jul 16, 2009

I'd play you, mjg, but my Brawl CD finally broke my Wii... And I haven't sent it in to get fixed yet. In fact, I'll fill in the form to send it in today.

BRLNK88 · Jul 16, 2009

Pho said:
Going from short hop projectile play to full hop projectile play is NOT an advancement in our metagame. It's just straight up annoying.

Then why does everyone say "Tink's metagame has advanced so much"?
Or at least the top TLs say that.

Kewkky · Jul 16, 2009

BRLNK88 said:
Then why does everyone say "Tink's metagame has advanced so much"?
Or at least the top TLs say that.

I personally believe all the characters' metagames are stuck right now. Even Pikachu's buffered CGs aren't applied in games as much as they should be, as far as I've seen in tourney play... Maybe they just mean they've been experimenting and they've found some new flashy things to do (like shorthop doublebomb... As if a fast character would let them do that, or let themselves be hit by both bombs, since it's amazingly predictable)... Even MK's metagame is stuck, we're just repeating what we do every match: one player punishes the other by baiting a response.

Hyro · Jul 17, 2009

Dairing an inhale is relevant...it's like knowing to zair an mk out of dthrow. I don't find this matchup too hard. And Kirby's definitley gimpable. once they waste their jumps to recover, nair/zair them. After that it's about hogging their up b which is too easy. All this matchup is is about avoiding bairs. You know when they're gonna fsmash so you shouldn't get hit by it. I would say...even?

Sosuke · Jul 17, 2009

The only thing I hate about Kirby is air camping. But its not that bad.
Just something that I, personally, don't like.

I think its even.

Metatitan · Jul 17, 2009

I use kirby as a secondary and I think I'm going to a tourny in chatsworth on sunday SB. Wanna do some TL vs Kirby for some matchup info?

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