Match-up Ranking Project version 1.0 Finished!

The Truth! · Jul 17, 2009

Pikachu's Match-Up Rank List

After frustration with weaknesses in the current method of rating match-ups (the ratio system), I decided to create a new method of measuring a match-up's difficulty. As opposed to making an arbitrary attempt at objectively rating a match-up, I decided instead to find a way to rank match-ups in relation to each other.

This list is very similar to a tier list. It is a subjective order of match-ups that reflect the current meta-game for pikachu based on experts and regional representives experiences in tournament and other significant matches. It is subject to change as the game evolves. This list does not attempt to rate the overall difficulty of a match-up (i.e. top does not mean counter, middle does not mean even).

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The following list ranks Pikachu's match-up difficulty from top to bottom. While the order itself has some minor significance, the categories are far more important.

Pikachu's Match-up Rank List
Top

Meta Knight
Olimar
Mr. Game and Watch
Wario
Ice Climbers

High
Marth
Diddy Kong
Lucario
Snake

Middle
Luigi
Peach
Ness
Kirby
Rob
Zero Suit Samus
Pit
Toon Link
Falco

Low
Sonic
King Dedede
Lucas
Zelda
Donkey Kong
Wolf
Mario
Ike

Bottom
Bowser
Fox
Link
Yoshi
Shiek
Captain Falcon
Pokemon Trainer
Samus
Jigglypuff
Ganon

* The original list has Marth and Snake reversed. After reviewing votes and discussing with the lists contributors and pika community I have switched the two to more accurately reflect their placing.

Contributors:

Anther
Z
PikaPika!
TheBadNewsBear
K Prime
ESAM
K-9
Stealth Raptor

All contributors are Pikachu power ranked members. Their personal lists are on display in this threads second post. For more on methodolyg specifics, see the methodolgy section below.

The Truth! · Jul 17, 2009

Pikachu Match-up Rankings lists

Methodology

The final list is a compilation of three separate lists. The first list is simply Anther's list. The second list is an expert's list of the top four pikachu's as determined by the pikachu power rankings. The third list is a regional list. For this the US was seperted into eight regions and regional representatives were chosen based on position in the Pikachu Power Rankings. Membership in one list did not exclude a contributer from membership in another.

All contributors were asked to place all match-ups in categories with other similar match-ups and to give each category a point value out of five. For the regional list each region had an equal voice, though one region had two reps that were averaged. One region had no representatives and was left off. Each list was then weighted and combined to make the final list seen above, with a minor adjustment noted. The list was then separated based on large point value separations.

Regions and their captians:

Pacific North - N/A
Pacific South - Z
South West - BadNewsbear; K Prime
West Midwest - Stealth Raptor
East Midwest - Anther
North Atlantic - PikaPika!
Mid Atlantic - Kenny
South Atlantic - ESAM

Experts list contributors:
Anther
Z
PikaPika!
BadNewsBear

List weights:

Anther's list 20%
Expert's list 40%
Regional list 40%

Final Point Values
Meta Knight - 4.97
Olimar - 4.91
Mr. Game and Watch 4.81
Wario - 4.80
Ice Climbers - 4.71

Marth - 3.96
Diddy Kong - 4.09
Lucario - 4.06
Snake - 3.96

Luigi - 3.57
Peach - 3.55
Ness - 3.46
Kirby - 3.45
Rob - 3.29
Zero Suit Samus - 3.28
Pit - 3.26
Toon Link - 3.15
Falco - 3.08

Sonic - 2.87
King Dedede - 2.81
Lucas - 2.75
Zelda - 2.75
Donkey Kong - 2.56
Wolf - 2.56
Mario - 2.49
Ike - 2.32

Bowser - 1.75
Fox - 1.75
Link - 1.66
Yoshi - 1.42
Shiek - 1.26
Captain Falcon - 1.15
Pokemon Trainer - 1.14
Samus - 1.04
Jigglypuff - .94
Ganon - .80

Final list Notes:
The largest separations occured between Top and High, and Low and Bottom. There was lots of consensus here, and in a sense creates 3 super tiers. The difference between middle and low is rather small in comparison to the others, and a decent gap also exists between Zelda/DK and Kirby/ROB.

The Truth! · Jul 17, 2009

Match-up Ranking lists

Contributer's Lists

Anther's list said:
Teh Battles of Teh Heart
Wario
Meta Knight
Pikmin & Olimar
Ice Climbers
Mr Game & Watch
Snake
Lucario

Where to put these guys
Kirby
Falco
Zero Suit Samus

Possible Contenders, but not always
Toon Link
Luigi
Marth
Ness
Diddy Kong
Pit
Ike
King Dedede
Lucas
Mario
Peach
R.O.B.
Wolf

These should lose to you, but can win..
Sonic
Fox
Bowser
Link
Donkey Kong
Zelda

Sheik and Captain falcon
Sheik
Captain Falcon

You should beat these guys, maybe not samus though
Ganandorf
Pokemon Trainer
Samus
Yoshi
Jigglypuff

Zee725 said:
5. Hardest aka these counterpick me
Wario
Ice Climbers
MK
GW
Olimar

4. Difficult and possible counterpicks against me
Marth
Diddy Kong
Ness
Peach
Zelda
Luigi

3. Straight up 50/50 matches
Snake
Kirby
ROB
Toon Link
DK
Pit
Lucario

2. I have a slight advantage (mostly because of CG)
Falco
ZSS
DDD
Sonic
Lucas
Pokemon Trainer
Mario
Samus

1. Easiest aka my CG alone will **** these characters =/
Ike
Link
Yoshi
Bowser
Jiggs
Shiek
C. Falcon
Fox
Wolf
Ganon

PikaPika! said:
Category 1 – 5 points
MK
Olimar
Wario
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers

Category 2 – 4 points
Snake
Lucario
Marth
GW

Category 3 – 3 points
ROB
Luigi
Toon Link
Ness
Falco
Peach
Pit
ZSS
Mario
DDD
Wolf
Kirby
Lucas
Ike

Category 4 – 2 points
DK
Zelda
Fox
Bowser
Link

Category 5 – 1 point
Sheik
Yoshi
C. Falcon
Jiggs
Samus
Pokemon Trainer
Ganon
Sonic

thebadnewsbear06 said:
Ice Climbers
Wario
Olimar
GW
MK

Marth
Diddy Kong
Lucario
Peach
Ness
Luigi

Snake
Kirby
ROB
Toon Link
Yoshi
Pit
Zelda

Falco
ZSS
DDD
Sonic
Lucas
Pokemon Trainer
DK
Wolf

Ike
Link
Mario
Bowser
Jiggs
Shiek
Samus
Fox
Ganon
C. Falcon

K Prime said:
Metaknight
Diddy
Olimar
Mr. Game & Watch
Marth
Snake
Wario
Toon Link
-----
Ice Climbers
Lucario
Falco
Luigi
Wolf
Mario
ROB
Ness
-----
Pikachu
King Dedede
Lucas
Peach
Donkey Kong
Kirby
Pit
Zero Suit Samus
-----
Ike
Sonic
Fox
Jigglypuff
Bowser
Squirtle
Samus
Yoshi
-----
Zelda
Charizard
Link
Pokemon Trainer
Ivysaur
Sheik
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

ESAM said:
Marth
Snake
G&W
MK
Olimar (those are the only ones i really have trouble with
----------------
(The rest of these are much easier for me than the 5 above)
ROB
Diddy
Luigi
------------
------------ (big gap)
ZSS
DDD
Pit
Wario
Toon Link
DK
Lucario
Squirtle
Zelda
Ness
Peach
-----------
Mario
Yoshi
Kirby
Lucas
IC (i can mash out of grab really fast)
----------
Bowser
Falco
Sonic
Ike
Samus
Charizard
Wolf
Jigglypuff
Pokemon Trainer
Ivysaur
Fox
Sheik
Ganondorf
Link
Captain Falcon

K-9 said:
Top:
Marth
Olimar
Diddy
GnW
MK

High:
ROB
Wario
Lucario
IC's
Snake
DK
Kirby

Mid:
Peach
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Toon Link
Pit
Ness
Lucas
Falco
Yoshi
Zelda

Low:
Wolf
Mario
Jigglypuff
Ike
Samus
D3
Sonic
Sheik

Bottom:
PT
Bowser
Link
Fox
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

Stealth Raptor said:
marth

(yes there is a gap, no other char is close imo)

G&W
Peach
wario (dont have much exp)
diddy
MK
ICs
pit

luigi
ROB
snake
olimar
yoshi
squirtle
zss

zelda
wolf
DDD
ness
DK
lucario
mario

ike
falco
kirby
Fox
tlink
sheik
jigglypuff
lucas
Bowser
PT

Samus
Charizard
sonic
Ivysaur
link
Ganon
Falcon

Previous Lists

Version 0.5 said:
Hardest Category
MK
GW
Snake
Olimar
Wario

Second Category
Ice Climbers
Lucario
Marth
Diddy Kong

Florida Category
ROB
Luigi
Toon Link
Ness
Falco
Peach
Pit
ZSS
Mario
DDD
Wolf
Kirby
Lucas

Sonic Category
Ike
DK
Zelda
Fox
Bowser
Sonic
Link

TheRapist Category
Shiek
Yoshi
C. Falcon
Jiggs
Samus
Pokemon Trainer
Ganon

Original Post

Thanks to the effort of several Pikas in the PBR, we finally have a tentative match up list.

While match up discussions themselves are helpful, this list was intended to fix one aspect of those discussions, the(what at least I considered to be the fail) ratio system. With a 100 point system numbers were generally arbitrarily assigned into what would be [strong/weak] advantage, disadvantage, and neutral match ups; and even the separation between strong/weak, weak/neutral weren't very clear. You generally only see match ups in multiples of 5, and they match with many other characters so you never knew if one match up was harder then the other, not to mention that by the time all characters had a ratio the metagame changes so much that the ratio becomes useless.

The following list ranks Pikachu's match up difficulty from top to bottom. While the order itself has some minor significance, the categories themselves are far more important, and the characters are generally interchangable within each category. This list is a compilation of several Pikachu experts, with higher weight given to those with greater tournament success and experience.

Also you'll notice this wont be in advantag/disadvantage form. That's because it will depend from person to person. For Anther even the hardest matchups will be next to neutral, for a new person neutral might be DK or Sonic

Finally, this is a work in progress. Please don't yell at me too much yet. I dont have a set system yet and there can probably be discussion on how to rank characters within categories, etc. Basically I want people to start discussing the system, the rankings, and everything so we can improve and create the most accurate list possible.

The current system involved a point system based on tournament experience and success. I gave Anther 5 points, Prime 2 points, ESAM 1 point and Stealth 1 point. Im still working on including 2 more lists I have which will probably be fractions of points. Im also working on a better variation of this system which might take a bit of time.

Click to expand...

SuSa · Jul 17, 2009

May I ask why Jigglypuff is so low? She can DI out of pretty much all of your multi-hit attacks (Dsmash is useless), can easily stall to avoid thunder, the only issue I could see is disjoints... but even then, you aren't that disjointed.

The Truth! · Jul 17, 2009

I guess I'll point out that I can't answer questions about rankings or change the order. For now this list was essentially based on four different pikachu experts opinions of matchups (im not one of them so I cant even help you out with my opinion). I started this thread in part so people could discuss the matchups here. Also keep in mind its not that jigglypuff is bad versus pika, shes just not as good as everyone else above her.

Also sorry if this looks really messy and disorganized right now, I just wanted to get a working thread up to start discussion, Im going to be cleaning it up and adding a lot of stuff over the next few days.

Nicholas1024 · Jul 17, 2009

Isn't Marth our hardest matchup?

The Truth! · Jul 17, 2009

Marth was influenced heavily by anther putting him in the so-so category, although stealth's rankings made sure he didnt fall below diddy.

Ussi · Jul 17, 2009

how is Toon Link hard

his short sword means nothing to me... and Pikachu can weave through his projectiles soo easily. (coming from someone who has been avoiding projectiles with Ike for almost a year)

SuSa · Jul 17, 2009

I would strongly argue Jiggz being placed above:
Link (cgggg ****? JK, maybe Jiggz is below Link... <_<)
Sheik (can't you CG **** Shiek? As well as camp like hell to avoid her poor chance of killing you? You are also pretty hard to gimp... what makes Sheik so deadly?
C. Falcon (CG ****?)

Then again, none of this matters because when was the last time you faced any of these characters (save maybe Sheik) in tourney?

The Truth! · Jul 17, 2009

Ussi, the category titles dont really mean anything. Basically if you find TL easy youll probably find everyone below and maybe a few above him easy.

SUSA, I agree with you on CF and Shiek. Part of that had to do with Anther placing shiek and falcon in their own category (his list is in the second post), and the heavy weight he adds to the list. Also don't forget that the characters within the categories are very interchangable.

Pikabunz · Jul 17, 2009

Kirby is not on the list!

The Truth! · Jul 17, 2009

Thanks Prime. He was tied with wolf so I missed him.

KayLo! · Jul 17, 2009

So..... this is a matchup list based off of four Pikas' opinions?

Honestly, I feel like this doesn't really warrant its own thread, but if it generates discussion, whatevs.

The Truth! · Jul 17, 2009

It's based off of 4 expert pika's tourney experience, basically its a practical matchup chart rather then theoretical (which is useless as far as competition goes). Theres two more I have to include and Im going to be pestering a few more people to do lists. Well, theres actually a lot of work that needs to get done, I just wanted something to get started and for people to talk about matchups compared to one another.

KayLo! · Jul 17, 2009

The Truth! said:
It's based off of 4 expert pika's tourney experience, basically its a practical matchup chart rather then theoretical (which is useless as far as competition goes). Theres two more I have to include and Im going to be pestering a few more people to do lists. Well, theres actually a lot of work that needs to get done, I just wanted something to get started and for people to talk about matchups compared to one another.

I understand what it is, but the matchup discussions we have already are (supposedly, if we're to trust the people that post) based off of experience. I'm sure Gallax doesn't include theorycrafting in his writeups.

It just seems a little silly to have a list based off of who you decide the "good" Pikas are when many of them don't have full matchup experience anyway besides Anther. I know for a fact that at least one person on that list is missing experience versus common tournament characters, and I'm sure he's not the only one. 2/4 people on that list don't even travel and only play people in their immediate area.

Seems a little biased to me, not to mention the fact that we already have a matchup thread where you could have posted this.

Like I said, I'll see where this goes over the next day or so, but so far, it looks like something that doesn't really need its own thread. I do appreciate the effort, though. <3

Kenrawr · Jul 17, 2009

Uh, Tag, why didn't you include the list you asked from me again? (misread, guess I was one of those pikas that get a FRACTION, in which case... boo.)

Expert Pikas is questionable too btw.
This list isn't nearly as balanced as it could be. Anther is THE pika and all but his points are more than the other three pikas combined. Come onnn =/

This current system is fail.

Oh yeah, and good luck. Hope you figure this thing out.

Xiivi · Jul 18, 2009

This is a great idea!

It's a shame you went about this so subjectively instead of objectively though.
:/

Kenrawr · Jul 18, 2009

Taaaag. This needs moar regional value.

How about you get like

Atlantic South
Atlantic North
Texas
MW
WC

Then each region can be valued at say like... 10 points. Then you can distribute those 10 points to the players that belong to that region based on skill level.

Example:

Atlantic North:
PikaPika=5 pts.
K-9=3 pts.
Kaylo=2 pts.

Atlantic South:
ESAM=5 pts.
gallax=3 pts.
Bigman=2 pts.

and so on.

Just an idea.

The Truth! · Jul 18, 2009

Kenny I like your regional idea. I'll talk more about it at the end of this post.

Seems a little biased to me, not to mention the fact that we already have a matchup thread where you could have posted this.

Like I said, I'll see where this goes over the next day or so, but so far, it looks like something that doesn't really need its own thread. I do appreciate the effort, though. <3[/COLOR]

I'm not trying to hide its bias. For one thing its the first list and I had to put it together entirely myself so people could get an idea. I dont even consider it version 1.0 yet because theres a lot of work left. Secondly, there's absolutely no way this is going to be objective. The matchups are going to change just like a tier list, it'll evolve as the game evolves. I told everyone who made their lists to make it based off of their own experiences, because in the end that'll be the most practically ranked match-up list.

Also I hope you read what I wrote in the OP, I don't understand why you're hinting at thread closures when I clearly said this thread was for everyone to get involved so we could make the most accurate list possible. If this doesnt have its own thread then Ill just make the lists myself and keep them in a blog or somewhere else, because Im not going to go through extra effort to get people to participate when I'm being prevented from doing so. And if people aren't saying anything, giving an opinion, alternatives, etc.; then it's not a stretch to assume that they're ok with the way things are being done.

It just seems a little silly to have a list based off of who you decide the "good" Pikas are when many of them don't have full matchup experience anyway besides Anther. I know for a fact that at least one person on that list is missing experience versus common tournament characters, and I'm sure he's not the only one. 2/4 people on that list don't even travel and only play people in their immediate area.

I didn't decide anything aside from how to put together a beta list.

As far as the the current method goes, unfortunately I didn't have 4 Anthers to choose from. I know everyone on that list isn't perfect and does not have perfect match-up experience, but I had to choose the best from what we have. There's a handful a people who could be considered above any of the 4, and most of them wouldn't do lists or are hard to get ahold of. In any case, almost all the lists looked exactly the same. It's probably going to change a lot anyways, so its not worth disagreeing with it now.

KayLo! said:
I understand what it is, but the matchup discussions we have already are (supposedly, if we're to trust the people that post) based off of experience. I'm sure Gallax doesn't include theorycrafting in his writeups.

Anyone who is not succesful in tournaments is almost certainly theory crafting. How can someone write about winning with experience unless they win? Not to say that it couldn't or shouldn't be done, but then it becomes theory, which is valuable for learning matchups and a few other things (I'm not trying to take away from the awesomeness of the matchup threads). BUT as far as ranking match-up difficulty, the only real accuracy that can be achieved is with people who are able to be the most successful in that matchup.

Alright Kenny. So for the last list I had these rankings for players.

Anther

Pika! / Z
Prime / Bear

ESAM/Stealth

Then I had other players like King Yoshi, you, Neji, and others below that would get a point value. The problem like you said and I realized after was that not everyone participated, and Anther ended up maybe weighing in slightly more then I'dve liked. I still like my top 5 list as far as giving them a stronger weight then most, but I wanted there to be a way to maybe include more in the ESAM/Stealth category. My first idea was to turn them into categories, so Category 1 had a 50% weight, Category 2 had a 33% weight, and Category 3 had a 16% weight (1/2, 1/3. 1/6). The nice thing about that was I would also be able to pull out a category and, say, I wanted a list based only off of your more average pikas. Then I could just use category 2 and 3 and make that list. I wasnt entirely sure what to do with Category 3 though since there were only two people in there, but I think making it regional would be kind of cool and have the added benefit of keeeping ESAM and Stealth in there as reps of their respective region. I think I'd prefer there to be 8 people in that category, so Im thinking 1. Pacific Northwest, 2. Pacific SW, 3. Texas, 4. Western Midwest, 5. Eastern Midwest, 6. Atlantic Northeast, 7. Atlantic mid-east, 8. Atlantic Southeast. This would be regardless of whether or not someone from that region already exists in the top 5 (which is fairly diverse anyways)

Kenrawr · Jul 18, 2009

Ya gotta stop putting pikas names in order. The only three that should really stand out are Anther/Pika/Z x.x I'm at least on par with a couple of those guys. ;x

But anyway, about this. I don't think it matters how many pikas you have assigned to a region, as long as each region has an equal point total as the next. Imo, you're making things harder than they have to be with the category thing. It should be fairly easy to get an estimation of skill. Also, there are only really five distinct regions. Things may just get messy if you add on three more.

I'm going to use the 10 point system for this on who I would think would be the best pikas to represent.

This is just my opinion.

Atlantic North:
PikaPika!: 6/5
K-9: 2/3
Kaylo!: 2/2
(Maybe Scissors Sir?)

Atlantic South:
ESAM: 5/4
gallax: 4/3
Bigman: 2

Texas:
K-Prime: 5
BadNewsBears: 5

WC:
Z: 7/6
Tag: 3/4

MW:
Anther: 7/6
Stealth: 2/3
KY: 0/1

I think this just about covers most of the US.

Sorry if I sound dumb. Schleepy schleepy johns x.x

Anyways, I should probably sleep. =o Lemme know what you think.

The Truth! · Jul 18, 2009

Even though I like the idea of regions playing a role, I dont think it should be what the list revolves around. It assumes that all regions are equal in the pika rep, when some areas like Texas are just way stronger then others like the WC. And again while I like getting region represenation, I dont want it to turn into a feel good excuse to involve every pika.

I still think Anther's opinion should weigh in 50% on the list. I want to see what people think or have to say about that.

I also think there should be another section for pika experts that make up half of the 50% leftover (33% for the total list weight). Who those experts are can be up for debate, and each can be assigned a different point value. I think it's just Pika!, Z, Prime, and Bear. But who is in there and how many points they get can be opened for debate later.

Finally I think the last section should be regional and that would take about 16% of the weight. Again we can argue about how many regions later, but it would be distributed to each region evenly, and they can divide it up to people within that region as much as they want. If you want I can also publish this list on its own so people can have an idea of what a purely regional mu list looks like without a super emphasis on successful pikas, it's basically the list youre proposing.

Kenrawr · Jul 18, 2009

It has nothing to do with a "feel good" list.

But whatever, you're going to have very uneven opinions.

You always talk about the only couple pikas you actually know about. Even the ones that don't place as high still may have some valuable match up input.

The Truth! · Jul 18, 2009

It'd be easier if more people gave an opinion.

Anyways, I dont claim to know every good pika. We can talk about who to add to the list of pika experts so Im not the only one making that list. Is there anyone else you want?

As for pikas that don't place high, this list is supposed to resemble a tier list. I'm not saying they dont have anything valuable to contribute, but theres a lot of places to do that. There's a reason they dont allow every person to vote on tier lists.

Also, like I said I can still add a list thats exactly what you want to the thread, focusing on regions and allowing successful and unsuccesful pikas to contribute. We can agree on its weight later or even if that list is better then the other list I make.

KayLo! · Jul 18, 2009

The Truth! said:
Is there anyone else you want?

K-9 said:
This is just my opinion.

Atlantic North:
PikaPika!: 6/5
K-9: 2/3
Kaylo!: 2/2
(Maybe Scissors Sir?)

Atlantic South:
ESAM: 5/4
gallax: 4/3
Bigman: 2

Texas:
K-Prime: 5
BadNewsBears: 5

WC:
Z: 7/6
Tag: 3/4

MW:
Anther: 7/6
Stealth: 2/3
KY: 0/1

I think this just about covers most of the US.

Just pointing that out there.

K-9 said:
Ya gotta stop putting pikas names in order. The only three that should really stand out are Anther/Pika/Z x.x

Also, this.

It's fine to have a tier list of matchups based on a group of Pikas, but assigning them points is the part that's going to lead to arguments. It's basically another way of ranking ourselves, which ALWAYS leads to "well, I think so-and-so is better than him" and "no, you're wrong, this person is definitely better than this other Pika."

I'd also like to point out that my "threatening" to close the thread wasn't me trying to lord over this or anything. All I said was that I'm not too keen on the idea, and if it gets out of hand (which it's likely to with this points system, based on ranking discussions in the past), it'll be closed. That's not unreasonable.

Kenrawr · Jul 18, 2009

The Truth! said:
Anyways, I dont claim to know every good pika. We can talk about who to add to the list of pika experts so Im not the only one making that list. Is there anyone else you want?

There may only be 2-3 pikas total that are close to "experts" in the general match-ups department. Which is why I think we should have a wide contribution of opinions.

The Truth! · Jul 18, 2009

Ok, I'll drop the giving them points idea. I think even aside from the arguments it can cause it just wasn't working out well. But as far as who to allow in that specific group (as opposed to the regions one), I still think it should be pikas who are successful at consistently winning. And for that I have Thrz, pika!, Z, Prime, and Bear. Does anyone else fit that criteria?

Kenny I might contract you to do the regional list thing.

Edit: Ok, I know there might be only 3-5 pikas in the experts on general matchups category. What I want to know is who are those people? Im not saying we shouldnt include others, Im saying we should at least know who those 3-5 people are because it would be helpful. You already mentioned Anther, Pika!, and Z. Would you agree with Prime and Bear? Is there anyone else?

Kenrawr · Jul 18, 2009

Just curious, and no offense to Bear or Prime but do they win? Let alone consistently win? And does Bear go mainly pika?

Anyway, if anyone were experts it would probably be Anther and Bear, match-up wise. Prime admitted himself that he's mainly wifi and doesn't have a good grasp on many of the match-ups. I don't know enough about Z to have an opinion on him but his opinion would be valuable since he's the biggest WC rep. PikaPika is a maybe. He mainly goes to locals and rarely goes OoS so I'd imagine he plays the same people over and over.

Then you have ESAM, stealth, and I who could give support. And maybe with a hint of gallax and Kaylo.

KayLo! · Jul 18, 2009

The Truth! said:
But as far as who to allow in that specific group (as opposed to the regions one), I still think it should be pikas who are successful at consistently winning. And for that I have Thrz, pika!, Z, Prime, and Bear. Does anyone else fit that criteria?

As far as the "successful Pika" list goes, I think those 5 are fine. I'd debate Prime (sorry, boo, just my opinion), but I really don't care enough to make a fuss over it.

I can't think of any other Pikas who place consistently well.

EDIT: Kenny basically said what I was going to say about Prime, lol.

Pikabunz · Jul 18, 2009

You guys are right. I'm so overrated.

Van Jones · Jul 18, 2009

How is Prime overrated? If my memory serves me right, Prime has won the last few San Angelo tourneys. He almost always gets first or second.

KayLo! · Jul 18, 2009

K Prime said:
You guys are right. I'm so overrated.

That's not what I meant at all. I know you're really, really good, and I'm not denying that.... but you've told me yourself that you don't have a wide range of matchup experience, even against more common tournament characters (like DDD and MK), which is what this thread is about.

thebadnewsbear06 said:
How is Prime overrated? If my memory serves me right, Prime has won the last few San Angelo tourneys. He almost always gets first or second.

No one said Prime's overrated. Those were his own words.

Pikabunz · Jul 18, 2009

*San Antonio
True, I usually get top 3 in the small sa tournaments, but it's just sa. We aren't that great.

Van Jones · Jul 18, 2009

Eh, whatever.

When are we gonna start talking about match-ups? I enjoying talking about them oh so much.

First character?

Kenrawr · Jul 18, 2009

Blah Klo covered it

KayLo! · Jul 18, 2009

thebadnewsbear06 said:
When are we gonna start talking about match-ups? I enjoying talking about them oh so much.

First character?

Kenny and Tag are still working out what this project is going to be in the first place, so it might take a while.

There's a matchup re-discussion thread if you want to contribute there, lol. It's still stuck on Diddy since no one really wrote much, which is a shame since I need a lot of Diddy help and was hoping to get some tips.

Pikabunz · Jul 18, 2009

I don't really like when people say I'm good when I really haven't done much outside of wifi. Let's wait till I place high at a real tournament.

The Truth! · Jul 18, 2009

Well it looks like things are panning out with the format. I think Primes amazing and has tons of knowledge, but Im going to leave him out for now because he says so. As for the project Ill be talking to Kenny and Kaylo more about it and updating in here, but if anyone else has anything to add or say about it please continue.

So that we're actually having some matchup ranking discussion, lemme go ahead and get started with some things.

First, are most people ok with each characters tier placement with the list on the first page? What dont you agree with/who should be switched to a different tier?

Second, starting off with the first tier

Hardest Category
MK
GW
Snake
Olimar
Wario

How would you rank these characters in order of matchup difficulty, and why?

I know the list isnt perfect, but it cant hurt to talk about it now.

Kenrawr · Jul 18, 2009

Personally I'd switch Marth with Snake and maybe include Diddy somewhere in the hardest category.

Let's just wait for the lists before we discuss anything though.

gallax · Jul 19, 2009

all i have to say is that i have plenty of experience and its stupid how im not included. im even the matchup discussion leader. i guess placing 4th, 5th and 7th at my last three tourneys means nothing.

Van Jones · Jul 19, 2009

While I no longer think that Marth is Pika's hardest opponent, I still think he deserves to be in the hardest category. Also, I feel like Snake needs to be taken out and Diddy needs to be put in. The more and more I practice this Wario match up, the more I think that it isn't that bad. I'm still on the fence about whether or not he should be in the hardest category.

Match-up Ranking Project version 1.0 Finished!

Smash Ace

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Smash Lord

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Smash Legend

Banned via Administration

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Smash Hero

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Smash Ace

Smarter than your average wabbit.

Smash Master

So much for friendship huh...

Smash Master

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Smash Master

Smash Ace

Smash Master

Smash Ace

Smarter than your average wabbit.

Smash Master

Smash Ace

Smash Master

Smarter than your average wabbit.

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smarter than your average wabbit.

Smash Hero

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Smarter than your average wabbit.

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