The New Match-up Chart

t3h Icy · Jul 18, 2009

So since nobody has recently taken initiative in making a match-up chart, I did. Interested by both charts/data/stats and the Super Smash Bros. Series, I created the following below.

The data and match-ups were gathered from previous charts, and revised through discussion in this topic. My personal opinions were only part of discussing any revisions, and not directly changing the chart.

Please note that this data may be incorrect. Firstly, the match-ups are debatable and can easily be incorrect. Secondly is that match-ups only have 5 different values, rather than ratios (Example: 55-45 and 45-55 would both be classified as "3" on my chart), which could have little to a significant effect.

Contributors

Blue Yoshi
cheeseball341
Daedatheus
DMoogle
Earthadept
Fireblaster
Firo
Kefit
KoRoBeNiKi
MattNF
neaR
Nintendude1189
Nixxxon
P D
s2j
SheerMadness
SuPeRbOoM
Superstar
Surri-Sama
t3h Icy
Thegreginator
Zen Yore

Update History

July 18th, 2009: Initial Match-up Chart
July 19th: Mario > Falcon, Mario > Ness, Falcon > Ness, Kirby > Samus, Kirby >> Yoshi, Mario > Yoshi, Luigi = Samus, Pikachu > Jigglypuff, Jigglypuff > Falcon
July 24th: Mario > Link, Jigglypuff = Yoshi, Jigglypuff = Falcon, Link > Samus, Yoshi = Samus
July 28th: Pikachu = Falcon, Falcon > Yoshi, DK > Jigglypuff, Jigglypuff = Samus
August 5th: Match-Up Data Chart 2's Match-Up Value is now easier for comparisons.
August 5th: Mario = Yoshi, Kirby > DK, Pikachu > Falcon, Mario = Kirby, Falcon > Samus, Jigglypuff > Yoshi, Pikachu >> Samus, Luigi > Jigglypuff, Luigi = DK
August 11th: Match-Up Data Chart 1 and 2 now have difference values for each rank.
August 11th: Kirby > Yoshi, Mario = Falcon, Yoshi = Jigglypuff, Kirby > Ness, Jigglypuff = Ness, Yoshi > Samus, Ness = Luigi
August 15th: Pikachu > DK, DK > Ness, Jigglypuff > Ness
August 18th: Completely change the layout
August 18th: Yoshi = Samus
September 9th: DK = Jigglypuff, Yoshi > Samus, Pikachu >> Luigi, Ness > Luigi
September 12th: DK > Jigglypuff
September 20th: Kirby > Jigglypuff, Luigi > Samus, Fox >> Ness
September 22nd: Kirby = Jigglypuff, Fox > Ness
September 28th: Modified the Chart heavily.
September 28th: Ness > Samus
December 3rd: Kirby > Jigglypuff
February 28th, 2010: Ness = Link
October 4th, 2010: New, combined visuals

Blue Yoshi · Jul 18, 2009

chart is way more accurate now

Deleted member · Jul 18, 2009

dk does not super pwn jigglypuff

NixxxoN · Jul 18, 2009

Mario vs Falcon is nowhere near even. Mario wins clearly... same for Mario vs Ness
Falcon vs Ness is also not even, Falcon wins
Orange/green for all of those

Surri-Sama · Jul 18, 2009

Something went seriously wrong here.

I think it was the creation of a match-up chart...not sure though

rpotts · Jul 18, 2009

Wait, so blue is a ++ matchup (5) and green is a +, (4) right?

Why do DK and Luigi have a blue against Jiggles when she has advantage over Ness, but Kirby doesn't?

Oh and BTW, I hate your avatar.

t3h Icy · Jul 18, 2009

Me said:
Please note that the values given to each match-up were based on previously concluded match-ups, from Gustav Wind's original chart, and the thread that went through a portion of the match-ups. My opinion on match-ups aren't present in these charts or data.

These were made through previous topics and charts, but I used the latest available conclusion for each match-up I could find, so don't yell at me if you think they're horrible. =)

So if there are some match-ups that you feel are wrong, please elaborate and I'll change it.

MattNF · Jul 18, 2009

sMoke2jointz said:
dk does not super pwn jigglypuff

fthrow -> giant punch
dair -> usmash
backthrow
just about any **** tent combo

all kill at stupidly low percents. DK also has much, much more range and priority against jiggly.

Jiggly can gimp DK easily with backthrow and dair to edgegaurd, but that's about it.

Peek~ · Jul 18, 2009

Ness sucks

He has no advantage over anyone

:\

KoRoBeNiKi · Jul 18, 2009

You are seriously overrating Samus and underrating Pikachu, Fox, Jigglypuff and Kirby.

Samus....even with Kirby....wait what?

Yoshi even with kirby. This is completely wrong, Kirby is Yoshi's worst matchup. We discussed this as Being ++ for Kirby.
Mario even with Ness and Yoshi? Mario does better in these matchups?
Samus, even with Luigi. Luigi has a better matchup.

Zen Yore · Jul 18, 2009

Peek~ said:
Ness sucks

He has no advantage over anyone

:\

u dun even play anymore so whats the point of the sad face

t3h Icy · Jul 18, 2009

KoRoBeNiKi said:
We discussed this as Being ++ for Kirby.

As far as I've read, it was never discussed. I do agree with you though, since I used to play Yoshi a lot, but as I said, I'm not putting my own opinion into the charts, but I may for discussion.

So who agrees with the following:

Mario = Falcon to Mario > Falcon
Mario = Ness to Mario > Ness
Falcon = Ness to Falcon > Ness
Samus = Kirby to Samus < Kirby
Yoshi = Kirby to Yoshi << Kirby
Mario = Yoshi to Mario > Yoshi
Samus > Luigi to Luigi = Samus

Let me know your opinions. If these 8 alone were all true, the chart would already form into a better shape. I think Jigglypuff's match-ups need the most work though, but one step at a time. So who agrees with the above?

Superstar · Jul 18, 2009

I'd change
Mario = Ness to Mario > Ness
To Mario >> Ness probably.

I think Falcon is equal to Ness, but Falcon has an amazing approach, so that going to Falcon MAY be right. Still think it should stay even, but wouldn't object to that change.

And Link is NOT even with Mario. Mario wins. Clearly. Mario > Link. I could give reasons, but its fairly obvious.

lordvaati · Jul 18, 2009

KoRoBeNiKi said:
You are seriously overrating Samus and underrating Pikachu, Fox, Jigglypuff and Kirby.

Samus....even with Kirby....wait what?

Yoshi even with kirby. This is completely wrong, Kirby is Yoshi's worst matchup. We discussed this as Being ++ for Kirby.
Mario even with Ness and Yoshi? Mario does better in these matchups?
Samus, even with Luigi. Luigi has a better matchup.

GG, Pika was underrated? ****.

also, Jiggs is pretty bad against anyone with good spikes since her vert recovery is awful, so I see Kirby dominating, Cap having an advantage and yoshi possibly being even.

asianaussie · Jul 18, 2009

t3h Icy said:
Samus > Luigi to Luigi = Samus

I'm not so sure about this one. I find Luigi pretty easy for Samus to beat down, provided you don't get hit by too many D-Airs. U-Airs are generally not too much of a threat, jumping or well-timed bomb usage can generally dodge the Up-B, but not the Down-B, which doesn't kill as easy. Fireballs don't do much, and his approach is thwarted easily (then again, who can't do that). Samus can approach easily. The only thing that Luigi would win out on is recovery, where Samus doesn't have too many non-circumstantial options.

Somebody explain why this should be so, I haven't played that many good Luigis, so I'm probably missing something.

Zen Yore · Jul 18, 2009

lordvaati said:
GG, Pika was underrated? ****.

also, Jiggs is pretty bad against anyone with good spikes since her vert recovery is awful, so I see Kirby dominating, Cap having an advantage and yoshi possibly being even.

ur dum jiggs has teh epic 0-death combos and teh epic bthrows

lordvaati · Jul 19, 2009

hmm...good point(I do like ****ing people over with the Dair to Rest combo) though it's vert recovs still leave it vulnerable to Dairs. though yeah, my matchups are kinda farfetched.

and again.....Pika was underrated??? O_o just how good is a skilled pika user?

Zen Yore · Jul 19, 2009

lordvaati said:
and again.....Pika was underrated??? O_o just how good is a skilled pika user?

1. go on youtube
2. type "isai pikachu" in search
3. enjoy

Blue Yoshi · Jul 19, 2009

using isai as a way to determine the pikachu matchups is the worst thing to do. Why don't we use Isai's Link as well? Link >>>>>> everyone.

I'm able to play Wednesday to try out the Puff matchups.

The ones I disagree with are:

Puff vs Pika (should be + for pika in my opinion)
Puff vs Falcon (+ for puff)

The ones I'm not sure about but would like to look into are:

Puff vs Kirby (+ for kirby?)
Puff vs Ness (++ for Puff? ... I haven't been beaten by a ness for the longest time)
Puff vs Yoshi (++ for puff? ... Yoshi can't combo out of utilt... except for maybe one hit e.g. egg).

I'm able to play Wednesday to test the matchup if someone wants to.

t3h Icy · Jul 19, 2009

Updated.

Mario > Falcon
Mario > Ness
Falcon > Ness
Kirby > Samus
Kirby >> Yoshi
Mario > Yoshi
Luigi = Samus
Mario > Link
Pikachu > Jigglypuff
Jigglypuff > Falcon

Now the chart is in much better shape. Two noticeable things though are Mario's placement and Jigglypuff's match-ups. Mario apparently has an advantage against almost all the characters and some of them are other good characters. Jigglypuff is a trend breaker having three advantages against characters above her, but at the same time having two large disadvantages right below her.

Please point out anything you think is wrong. Personally, I would like some discussion some of Jigglypuff's match-ups, since there seems to be a lot of debate about them being too low.

Blue Yoshi · Jul 19, 2009

t3h Icy said:
Pikachu > Jigglypuff

I do believe this to be right, but we should test the matchup first before it changes. The general consensus amongst the 64 community is that Pikachu >> Jigglypuff. Hence me willing to play Wednesday to try out some matchups.

As for some mistakes in puff's matchups, the Luigi vs Puff matchup (currently ++ for luigi) is questionable. You're giving puff way too much credit in this matchup. ...

Wenbobular · Jul 19, 2009

Why exactly did we bring this up again ...

In my oh so humble opinion I don't really think that tiers matter in this game besides Pika > everyone, Kirby = boring, Fox, Falcon and Mario can duke it out for 3rd, 4th and 5th, Ness sucks, and everyone else is in BELOW THE TOP 5 tier. Except for Samus, who REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEALLY sucks. And Link, whose recovery also REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEALLY sucks.

ballin4life · Jul 19, 2009

I think mario v fox is even (also thought this was the consensus).

Also mario vs kirby is advantage mario???? Really? Kirby is one of the better characters at edguarding mario, I'd say it's even.

asianaussie · Jul 19, 2009

Wenbobular said:
Why exactly did we bring this up again ...
In my oh so humble opinion I don't really think that tiers matter in this game besides Pika > everyone, Kirby = boring, Fox, Falcon and Mario can duke it out for 3rd, 4th and 5th, Ness sucks, and everyone else is in BELOW THE TOP 5 tier. Except for Samus, who REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEALLY sucks. And Link, whose recovery also REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEALLY sucks.

I think Fox might be 2nd. He just seems so much more...fluent.

And there was a post about Jiggs >> Yoshi. Just because U-Tilt can't combo on her, doesn't mean it's automatically for Puff. Yoshi has a lot more priority, and DJC F-Air into the ground does a rebound at about 15%, which can open a door for F-Tilt, D-Smash or another DJC aerial. You don't even need to combo, some hard hits followed by said DJC F-Air sets up for an U-Smash really easily. Of course, this is open to rebuttal.

lordvaati · Jul 19, 2009

Wenbobular said:
Why exactly did we bring this up again ...
In my oh so humble opinion I don't really think that tiers matter in this game besides Pika > everyone, Kirby = boring, Fox, Falcon and Mario can duke it out for 3rd, 4th and 5th, Ness sucks, and everyone else is in BELOW THE TOP 5 tier. Except for Samus, who REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEALLY sucks. And Link, whose recovery also REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEALLY sucks.

Ness sucks on a keyboard. on a N64 controller, skilled Players can infinite with the guy.

Fireblaster · Jul 19, 2009

lordvaati said:
Ness sucks on a keyboard. on a N64 controller, skilled Players can infinite with the guy.

No. Just, freaking, no.

t3h Icy · Jul 19, 2009

Pikachu > Jigglypuff to Pikachu >> Jigglypuff
Mario > Kirby to Mario = Kirby
Jigglypuff > Yoshi to Jigglypuff = Yoshi

I would say Pikachu >> Jigglypuff. Pikachu has a ton of advantages over Jigglypuff: speed, priority, power, and Pikachu is quite good at comboing Jigglypuff. Once Jigglypuff is off, an edgeguarded Bair or Nair (or even the others) usually result in Jigglypuff running out of jumps and is an auto KO for Pikachu. Bthrow kills Jigglypuff early too. With Pikachu's recovery combined with Jigglypuff's overall speed, Jigglypuff can't edgeguard too well, compared to other characters.

I don't know why Mario > Kirby, I think it's even.

NixxxoN · Jul 19, 2009

lordvaati said:
Ness sucks on a keyboard. on a N64 controller, skilled Players can infinite with the guy.

You need superhuman DJC skills to make ness look great, and if you say that about kb is because you can't use kb

I don't know why Mario > Kirby, I think it's even.

Mario can destroy kirby with fireballs and spacing, and kirby's utilt crap doesnt work quite well against mario

Superstar · Jul 19, 2009

Mario is still even with Link in that chart.

Kirby can cancel out Fireballs with nair and utilt works moderately well [not GREAT, but it works well]. Though, might not be enough to turn it.

lordvaati · Jul 19, 2009

Fireblaster said:
No. Just, freaking, no.

you should fight zordon's Ness, then.

You need superhuman DJC skills to make ness look great, and if you say that about kb is because you can't use kb

that's exactly what he did. and as a whole, I'm just plain bad with kb, but I'm getting used to it.

Fireblaster · Jul 19, 2009

lordvaati said:
you should fight zordon's Ness, then.

Then tell him to get online and let me p2p him and we'll see how many "infinites" he can really do. Or even easier, just post one of his "infinites".

I looked him up and he's not in the player compendium or anything. I get the feeling that he's just a scrub friend of yours that knows how to do Dair 100 times in a row because none of you know how to tech.

lordvaati · Jul 19, 2009

he sometimes appears on the Godweapon's server. I fought him at night, so try looking then.

Blue Yoshi · Jul 19, 2009

At chart updater:

if one person says something, it does not mean that it is to be changed. It should be discussed first. I suggested Pika > Puff instead of Pika >> Puff so that we could discuss it, have a few people play the matchup, and come with a consensus. Until we decide what the matchup should be, we should keep it to what it was before. Changing after every person says something will result in a terrible chart.

lordvaati · Jul 19, 2009

I'm still floored on the fact that it's stated pika was underrated on that list.. I mean, the stats say that out of the cast of 12, Pika has the advantage over 8, a huge advantage over 3, and only evenly fights with itself.

after watching that vid Zen sent me, I'd see him having possibly huge over Kirby, with it's insane edgeguarding and WOP(and maybe Cap),but you guys say he's even better than that? geez, even MK doesn't have matchups that godly.

Kefit · Jul 19, 2009

There should be a separate Hyrule matchup chart and Dreamland matchup chart. A lot of matchups change dramatically when going between the stages due to the difference in gimping potential, camping space, and platform roofs. Consolidating this info into a single matchup chart doesn't give a very accurate picture of what is going on.

Blue Yoshi, if you want to do some Puff vs Pika then let's set up a time for some matches :x

lordvaati · Jul 19, 2009

Kefit said:
There should be a separate Hyrule matchup chart and Dreamland matchup chart. A lot of matchups change dramatically when going between the stages due to the difference in gimping potential, camping space, and platform roofs. Consolidating this info into a single matchup chart doesn't give a very accurate picture of what is going on.

Blue Yoshi, if you want to do some Puff vs Pika on Wednesday night I'm up for it :x

I see Ness at rock-bottom of a Viridian chart, that's for sure.

Deleted member · Jul 19, 2009

lordvaati said:
GG, Pika was underrated? ****.

also, Jiggs is pretty bad against anyone with good spikes since her vert recovery is awful, so I see Kirby dominating, Cap having an advantage and yoshi possibly being even.

any smart jigglypuff player recovers really high, using rising pounds

I've also found that Yoshi is pretty good against Kirby and don't understand how Kirby is ++ above him

I don't get why icy changes every matchup when some random dude (not everybody) just chimes in and he instantly changes. stupid

WOTG · Jul 19, 2009

I was going to make this thread a while ago, but it looks like I got beat to it, and I disagree with this list completely.

I think this is more accurate.

1. Luigi:
Best Match-Ups – Jigglypuff
Even Match-Ups – Pikachu, Mario, DK, Ness, Kirby, Samus, Link, C. Falcon, Yoshi
Worst Match-Ups – Fox

2. Mario:
Best Match-Ups – C. Falcon, Link, Samus, Yoshi, Ness
Even Match-Ups – Luigi, DK, Kirby, Fox, Jigglypuff
Worst Match-Ups – Pikachu

3. Donkey Kong:
Best Match-Ups – None
Even Match-Ups – C. Falcon, Mario, Luigi, Link, Jigglypuff, Fox, Ness
Worst Match-Ups – Kirby, Yoshi, Samus, Pikachu

4. Link:
Best Match-Ups – None
Even Match-Ups – Samus, DK, Ness, Yoshi, Jigglypuff, C. Falcon, Luigi
Worst Match-Ups – Fox, Pikachu, Kirby, Mario

5. Samus:
Best Match-Ups – DK, Yoshi
Even Match-Ups – Luigi, Link, Ness, Jigglypuff
Worst Match-Ups – Mario, Fox, Kirby, Pikachu, C. Falcon

6. Captain Falcon:
Best Match-Ups – Samus
Even Match-Ups – Luigi, DK, Link, Ness, Yoshi, Kirby, Fox, Pikachu
Worst Match-Ups – Mario, Jigglypuff

7. Ness:
Best Match-Ups – Yoshi
Even Match-Ups – Luigi, Link, Samus, C. Falcon, Kirby, Fox, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, DK
Worst Match-Ups – Mario

8. Yoshi:
Best Match-Ups – DK
Even Match-Ups – Luigi, Link, C. Falcon, Fox
Worst Match-Ups – Mario, Samus, Kirby, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Ness

9. Kirby:
Best Match-Ups – DK, Yoshi, Samus, Link
Even Match-Ups – Luigi, Mario, C. Falcon, Ness, Fox, Pikachu, Jigglypuff
Worst Match-Ups – None

10. Fox:
Best Match-Ups – Link, Samus, Luigi, Jigglypuff
Even Match-Ups – Mario, C. Falcon, Ness, Yoshi, Kirby, Pikachu, DK
Worst Match-Ups – None

11. Pikachu:
Best Match-Ups – Mario, Link, Samus, Yoshi, DK
Even Match-Ups – Luigi, C. Falcon, Ness, Kirby, Fox, Jigglypuff
Worst Match-Ups – None

12. Jigglypuff:
Best Match-Ups – C. Falcon, Yoshi
Even Match-Ups – Mario, DK, Link, Samus, Ness, Kirby, Pikachu
Worst Match-Ups – Luigi, Fox

I play every character, and played every character against every character. Observed my own matches and observed others. Some people may think its n00bish to think of match-ups or whatever purpose, but some of these things come obvious within experiance. Some characters just really have a difficult time against others, specifically. But in the long run this doesn't matter, because with skill a player can overcome any disadvantage.

Surri-Sama · Jul 19, 2009

sMoke2jointz said:
I don't get why icy changes every matchup when some random dude (not everybody) just chimes in and he instantly changes. stupid

this guy got it....

even the people who know what they are talking about...are not talking about it.

WOTG said:
11. Pikachu:
Best Match-Ups – Mario, Link, Samus, Yoshi, DK
Even Match-Ups – Luigi, C. Falcon, Ness, Kirby, Fox, Jigglypuff
Worst Match-Ups – None

Fireblaster · Jul 19, 2009

WOTG's matchups are so wrong and off. Besides the pika one in which Luigi does better against pika than mario does (lol), apparently luigi is even with all the other characters except one?

People should just stop trying to make these charts solely by discussing it. Like me and surri have said before, this is purely theory fighter and accomplishes nothing. Sure, you can make long 8 paragraph essays discussing a single match up instead of just using 3 sentences. But in the end, it doesn't even matter (lol) because it's all just OPINION and the only thing that determines how valid it is depends on how good the player is that formed the opinion. The most valid and accurate way to make a match up chart is for more tournaments to be held so people can play to win more and be more involved. But everyone's too lazy or whatever to host a tournament and actually finish it. The last 4 online tournies I've been in have never finished, how is that possible? Tourney hosts are too lazy to kick and DQ people for being inactive and therefore this doesn't actually finish. How is there supposed to be incentive for competition if any time a good player is about to get recognition for possibly winning a tournament, it doesn't finish and the SSB64 online scene dies a little more?

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