Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #6: Weegeee

Time for another rediscussion.





GO! ^_^


Slight Advantage 55:45

Don't let him near you.
EVER.


Ehh, Don't let him approach you with aerials at all. That's the main thing. It's a very difficult thing to manage, though. >_>

l believe this is like 5/5 or more 55:45 TL more likely. Possibly 55:45 luigi on a few CPs but not really much in the future. I do know TL should be doing this.

CAN YOU SMELL THE CAMPING? CAN YOU SMELL THE SPACING?. We really didn't do this matchup like long long time ago so eh l doubt it again idk lol.

Its Luigi's favor IMO.
but then again I hate him more than kirby, so my opinion is again biased.

Stay away from him. Do NOT let him near you. You can attempt to camp, but hes most likely gonna weegee nado to you, so its more of a hit and run matchup.

He has mad shield pressure with his auto canceling arieals, and he can just grab you if your living in your shield.

He has 3 recovery options, so gimping him is abit of a challenge, but his up B isn't very good, so if you can force that, its not terribly hard.

He kills FAR before we kill him. Fsmash tilted upwards kills at like..75? I could be wrong. Jab-> up B will kill around 50-60. His Dsmash kills well, and even his Nair isn't that bad of a killer.

I play KoRo pretty often, so he could probably give more insight on the matchup.

A boomerang pretty much kills mostly his recovery, it even gets stopped by a green missle, so it isn't much of a challenge lol, but it does make you do work though. Just don't be dumb and dair spike off the edge.. And all of luigi's kill options pretty go solid on him.. and usually good luigi's will be living long with good DI.. and TL dies to upb around 48% (of course goes differing with stage/positioning etc y'know..)

Just wanted to say...dont attempt to grab. Seriously...oh and jab upB isnt a true combo btw. U can SDI, so for luigi to hit you with the upB he has to predict a roll/spotdodge or punish a very laggy move like dsmash or grab...now continue the discussion LOL.

Mans, I swear humans must be like superman, cus like they can like y'know, predict a frame 1 attack and put a shield in time cus you know, like human nature says like, friggin only usually 5 frames for a human to react or some **** like that luuulz.

but otherwise yay sdi. just sayin.

When was the last time a top player was hit with jab->upb? Theres your answer. You can even hold down and powershield :/ and that isnt hard to do...

loldabuz. *unless you were referring both top tl and top luigi luulz*

just sayinnnn

Just because you think it's easy to sdi out of his jab, and it might even be, it's not always going to be obvious when he jabs you.

^ I know that. Just saying that jab upB is overrated :/.

Boomerang and Arrow clash with Luigi's tornado. It's basically his only approach. SH > Down B gives it more priorty so only the boomerang will clash with it, and the arrow won't. Don't grab, or you'll get a face full or Up-B, and camp, pretty so Luigi can't do anything. Don't pull out a bomb near Luigi or you'll be punished pretty hard, pull it out when away.

Luigi has 3 recovery's, they are very predictable, so it's easier to get away with a spike, stage spike, or just hitting/gimping. Bair -> Bair doesn't work due to Luigi's Nair.


Also, Luigi kills us at 73% with F-smash angled up, and Up-B kills at 61%(?). I personally think it can go anywhere from even to a slight advantage for either character.

Finally....DON'T GO TO BATTLEFIELD!!

Jab up B isnt a true combo, but it still works if we arent expecting it. There isnt much else to say about that

As for the match up, I say its 55-45 TL. At low percents, if we go in close, its their advantage, so its best to use a hit and run tactic on them at low percents. At higher percents, We can just stick to our basic TL fighting style, and shouldnt have too much of a problem. Remember dont grab. There are some nasty things luigi can do to TL, but when I also though about the fact that if we hardcore camp them, not much they can do. So its slightly in our favor.

zair him when he tornados towards you. If you dont have time to zair, just shield and you can punish with a fsmash.

always DI away from him when he's trying to combo you.

bomb imo is the best out of the 3 projectiles since most of his attacks cancel out arrows and boomerangs.

when hes recovering, if he tornadoing upward and hes right next to the edge (kinda like when snake recovers too close and he can be grab released without his upB) you can dash attack and grab the edge and luigis pretty much done.

also, just powershield the upB

imo This match is 60/40 in toon links favor

Smith said:

Boomerang and Arrow clash with Luigi's tornado. It's basically his only approach. SH > Down B gives it more priorty so only the boomerang will clash with it, and the arrow won't. Don't grab, or you'll get a face full or Up-B, and camp, pretty so Luigi can't do anything. Don't pull out a bomb near Luigi or you'll be punished pretty hard, pull it out when away.

Luigi has 3 recovery's, they are very predictable, so it's easier to get away with a spike, stage spike, or just hitting/gimping. Bair -> Bair doesn't work due to Luigi's Nair.


Also, Luigi kills us at 73% with F-smash angled up, and Up-B kills at 61%(?). I personally think it can go anywhere from even to a slight advantage for either character.

Finally....DON'T GO TO BATTLEFIELD!!

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RARBair is still a approach. Fireball is still a approach. Walking to Ps is still an approach.

TheJerm said:

Jab up B isnt a true combo, but it still works if we arent expecting it. There isnt much else to say about that

As for the match up, I say its 55-45 TL. At low percents, if we go in close, its their advantage, so its best to use a hit and run tactic on them at low percents. At higher percents, We can just stick to our basic TL fighting style, and shouldnt have too much of a problem. Remember dont grab. There are some nasty things luigi can do to TL, but when I also though about the fact that if we hardcore camp them, not much they can do. So its slightly in our favor.

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lol. Luigi DOES eventually get inside TL's range.. AND STAYS INSIDE for quite awhile.. since I don't really know TL's gtfo tools.. I'm assuming bad or good.. and powershielding is literally not that hard.. (though i'm pretty sure you've gotten this answer by many other char boards so you'd be probably annoyed but just saying it's STILL A TOOL)..

2nLio said:

zair him when he tornados towards you. If you dont have time to zair, just shield and you can punish with a fsmash.

always DI away from him when he's trying to combo you.

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rise the tornado or just hit and run with tornado and your safe. oh since the nearest thing to a high level play vid.. would be Jash vs Boss that silly livestream video lol, just sayin don't bring it up just don't just sayin.

And still have to discuss cp stages which pretty much the MU boils down to since it's nearly 55:45 or 5/5. obviously anything flat TL excels on, and anything with platforms to avoid some projectile game and have some combo game there is what Luigi excels at.

Luigi is hard to camp, and harder to fight up close.

He can rack up damage as fast as we can if we let him combo us in the air or ground. Honestly I wouldn't even approach in this match up unless its below 40%....but I do favor this match up in TL 60-40. Even if luigi gets past out items, he will take alot of unnecessary damage for it.

I don't play many luigi's that are known to be honest but I will say that keeping luigi at mid range helps a lot in this match up since it is hard to camp luigi and keeping him out of mid range helps you to build up the damage while not getting completely ***** by luigi. Once weegee is inside of TL, he will get a good amount of damage on us, especially since we can't do much when are opponent is below us; Dair is too risky for that.

Misc. note: I've been able to forward smash some luigi players out of their tornado when recovering back on stage. This is more situational then anything and they will be more cautious after this happens to them the first time. A fair can send luigi further away from the stage if he is using his green missile (I think that is what it is called?) or a boomerang will simply stop him @.@.

I believe this match up is 55: 45 Toonlink or at least 50:50

has uptilt combos at low percents.
I say its luigi's favor because of his Fsmash...

^ It has poor range and Luigi has trouble landing forward smash on Toon Link. Remember our mobility. I get killed more by his nair/usmash/down smash.

His Dsmash is worse then his Fsmash though

Comes out ridiculously fast tho ^^^.

What lobos, approach below 40?? dontt aproach below 40. They can get out of everything we do at low percents. and they can combo us hard at low percents.

And hippie dude, I know luigi can get in. Thats why I said its best to play really safe until we get to about 40-50% That way you cant stay in.

TLMSheikant said:

^ It has poor range and Luigi has trouble landing forward smash on Toon Link. Remember our mobility. I get killed more by his nair/usmash/down smash.

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lol @ u responding to a random. But can't blame you at all, just sayin, most people ARE RANDOMS and just come in and say whatever bull**** they want as if they know luigi.. but just sayin.. it just pisses me off >.>..

sasukebowser said:

His Dsmash is worse then his Fsmash though

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It's blergh. Iunno, luigi boards have debated this alot back in the day.. some say fsmash is better.. some say dsmash is better.. it's w/e.. both have different uses.. but personally jab is better then both of them no bull.

TLMSheikant said:

Comes out ridiculously fast tho ^^^.

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loldsmash. comes out at frame 5. Fsmash comes out around frame 12-13, unless you wana angle dat **** up.

@ jerm- kk

I say 40% because below that is still safe from an upb >_>

TLMSheikant said:

When was the last time a top player was hit with jab->upb? Theres your answer. You can even hold down and powershield :/ and that isnt hard to do...

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I read everything up to this. Just wanted to say, I've done jab -> on Hugs in a singles match a few times in a tourney set...


And I've done it multiple times in doubles ^^

NEVER let a Luigi grab you. Especially at low percents. Luigi's grabs = combos.

From personal experience, Luigi's up-close game is hard to counter unless you can read him/her. But at a distance, TL has the upper hand on Weegee, since Fireballs are easy to just jump or probably shield.

I say 60:40 TL, but I'm not entirely sure, though.

lol One of my favorite matchups. I'd say its 55 - 45 TL, same reason everyone else said.

Fireballs really are something of a concern, usual SH play isn't going to work vs. a luigi. If you're zairing always go for that Airdodge -> Zair or else that's just a free setup for the Luigi to walk in on you from a fireball.

If you're going for projectile play and Luigi is in fireball distance, Full hop angled down Boomerang -> Quick Draw is the way to go.

Seriously, a SH'd fireball is really something one should be worried about in this matchup. You'll want to change your style around for any of you that usually rely on SH nair -> QD's and such, or else you'll be eating those all day and have the luigi in your face.

SH Nair -> QD isn't really good in this matchup at all. If anything Bair -> B-reversed QD would be the solution you're looking for.

Even if Jab -> UpB isn't a true combo, it really is somewhat a surprise threat when you aren't expecting it and something that should always be on the back of your mind vs. a Luigi.

As been stated multiple times, attempting to grab in this matchup is a little stupid. It should not be done. Even if you are sure that you'll probably get the grab, go for the safer option. It's not like our grabs are really that great anyways that we should be risking it.

Expect the SH fireball? great, throw an angled boomerang. But I'm definately going to suggest that you do not continue with your regular SH projectile play, This character forces you to learn FH projectile play and DJ projectile play or he has the upper hand.

and... i'unno. Hippiedude(CM, <3 no homo) probably has better insight on this matchup than I do since I don't really tend to remember our games much, but this is what I usually gather everytime I fight his luigi so why not.

With all this being said, I actually vote on this being 50-50, or 55-45 TL 'at most'.

Luigi also has the jab --> grab option as opposed to the jab --> upB. It's way more reliable and sets up combos. It also ruins our plans of powershielding the "expected" upB.

I decided on 55-45 Toon Link. Will write summary on monday.

When I played Biglou at Last3 a couple months ago, I got hit with a jab Up B. It's definitley practical and devastating when hit. I had a lotta trouble with my first pro luigi...he can literally NEVER stop attacking. Random unspaced aerials, land RIGHT in front of you, you can try to grab but if he jabs right when he lands, he'll hit you first. Scary stuff. I gotta get better at running away for this matchup. Being close to luigi is...terrifying.

Hold back for jab Up B. And as I said before, dont fight upclose until you have high perent.

Summary

55-45 Slight Advantage

Best Stage to fight Luigi on:



Worst Stage to fight Luigi on:



Summary:

Luigi is a very good character with low range and poor mobility but with a lot of killing power and combos. He has very good aerials. His upair is a very deadly juggling tool, his nair is a frame 3 gtfo move with a lot of priority, his fair has almost no cooldown lag, his back air has a lot of range and his dair is also very good and can spike. But Luigi's aerials arent the only thing he has going for him. He also has 2 very dangerous kill moves that can kill Toon Link at around 50-60% (UpB) and 90-95% (Angled Up Forward Smash). Toon Link must play very careful and not commit to any lag inducing moves even less than in other matchups. Never ever try to grab in this matchup as it will lead to an early upB kill for Luigi if you happen to miss. The risk outweighs the reward, even if you are sure that you will grab him do not do it and go for something else.

Luigi has poor moblity both in the air and on the ground which makes our proyectiles give him a lot of trouble when he is trying to approach. Luigi will often try to get past your proyectiles with his downb (tornado) because it travels fast and cancels arrows. Just throw a bomb at him if he's doing that or zair him out of it, you can also shield it and nair OoS. He might also approach with short hopped fireballs. If he does this, just zair him as it will cancel the fireball and hit Luigi and possibly allow for a nair follow up. What gives Luigi a lot of trouble in the matchup is getting past our proyectile brickwall (mainly angled up boomerang for aerial approaches and bombs/arrows/forward rang/zair for ground approaching) without eating a lot of damage in the process and not being swatted away with our sword when he finally does. Killing goes to Luigi for obvious reasons. One mistake can mean death with his upB or his fsmash. While we struggle (like always) to land our kill moves.

Ban stages with platforms like battlefield/Halberd as it aids Luigi in his combo/juggling game. Counterpick flat stages with a lot of space to keep our camping game going like Final Destination and Delfino Plaza. If you get hit by his jab at 50 to 60 percent, make sure to DI it down or away.

TL;DR- Camp him, dont let hit get too close or you will eat a lot of damage, dont try to grab, be careful of his upB/fsmash.

Hyrulian_Royalty said:

When I played Biglou at Last3 a couple months ago, I got hit with a jab Up B. It's definitley practical and devastating when hit. I had a lotta trouble with my first pro luigi...he can literally NEVER stop attacking. Random unspaced aerials, land RIGHT in front of you, you can try to grab but if he jabs right when he lands, he'll hit you first. Scary stuff. I gotta get better at running away for this matchup. Being close to luigi is...terrifying.

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AGREEEEEEEEEED. I've fought Boss on Yoshi's and that was scary as all hell. I was so scared that I dair suicided twice. Then I took him to Final and nearly won.

I'm shocked Jash didn't come in here. <_<

What's with all these bumps on old threads?

Actually, the jab up-b is a legit combo, I mean not everyone get his by it, but many luigi's mindgame it, boss doing it to ally,my friend phyro doing to dehf(falco) rich brown(olimar) tyrant(mk) Iol imo luigi's are the ****.

Enough about that, back to discussion.
Luigi are pretty **** annoying, his jabs amazing cause they get priority over our jabs and even cancels some of our moves, and if we can't approach luigi, its leave us to camp/spam him but luigi are gonna find away over there..boss is a mad beast at approaching, what I found that was really useful against phyro and a few other luigis is zair space without air dodging cos the fire balls they sh from will hit u, so keep zairing and using proyectile game then when their at killing % upsmash. Fwrdsmash I don't use cos phyro di's outta the 2nd hit b4 it connects. Oh another thing try to avoid roll dodging against luigi's considering our roll sux

Let's say Tinks aerials are out, Zair and projectiles provide the necessary spacing we need against Luigi and the options he doesn't have. Luigi can surprise us but I agree that the advantage is definitely FT(Toons)W

And There ALWAYS going to find away to approach so dont say its easy to keep luigi away.