TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Another rediscussion.
GO! ^_^
Even 50:50
GO! ^_^
Even 50:50
-
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Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #7: King Dedede
- Thread starter TLMSheikant
- Start date
Metatitan
Smash Master
But you camp every matchup
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Haha I WILL input on this matchup. Its imo one of the most even matchups in the game. But I want to see what other TLs think first.
I used to think this matchup was difficult for Dedede, perhaps maybe even 50:50.
Then I stopped being terrible and getting camped a lot.
Yeah, idk what to say really. I think it's 60:40. Toon Link has enough mobility to avoid Dedede for a little while, but in the end our grab game swings the match heavily in our favor and we can kill you faster than you can kill us (I can't remember what Toon Link's kill moves are and when they kill, but it's Dedede so we'll probably survive well above 150%).
One tip though: Get Dedede offstage. No matter what he does to recover, he'll end up taking a ton of damage. For most characters I'd reccommend using bthrow, but Toon Link's grab game is easily punishable to say the least. Bair strings are an option but they don't move Dedede that far offstage. I can't really think of anything to do get Dedede offstage but you guys know him better than me so I'm sure I can figure it out.
Then I stopped being terrible and getting camped a lot.
Yeah, idk what to say really. I think it's 60:40. Toon Link has enough mobility to avoid Dedede for a little while, but in the end our grab game swings the match heavily in our favor and we can kill you faster than you can kill us (I can't remember what Toon Link's kill moves are and when they kill, but it's Dedede so we'll probably survive well above 150%).
One tip though: Get Dedede offstage. No matter what he does to recover, he'll end up taking a ton of damage. For most characters I'd reccommend using bthrow, but Toon Link's grab game is easily punishable to say the least. Bair strings are an option but they don't move Dedede that far offstage. I can't really think of anything to do get Dedede offstage but you guys know him better than me so I'm sure I can figure it out.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
^ And I used to think it was 60:40 King Dedede until I started actually camping hardcore and avoid his grab game with full hop nairs and back airs. Now I think its even :/. I think RATED will agree that it is even and ling ling will probably say so too. *waits for RATED and ling*
Smith
Smash Ace
Just stay away from his grabs and camp, hard. Boomerang tosses his Waddle dee's off stage backwards very far, and I beileve if you crouch I think our shield cancels out the Gordo. Zair to space DDD away from you if he tries to aproach with Back air or a Shield grab/dash grab.
I love this matchup so much <3
Its a camp fest. We throw our stuff, he throws waddle dees.
he air camps, well theres no really set counter for it, just react in a smart way lol.
Then when he goes for grabs, thats the fun part ^_^
Just constantly space nair against his shield and arrow cancel, it works WONDERS. I've played some very good D3 mains and gone entire matches without being grabbed playing this way. Of course your probably gonna get f-tilted if you land after every nair, but thats where things like DJ dair come in handy.
Of course if he does get a grab off, have a bomb/rang out, our your pretty much screwed lol. We have a very predictable recovery, and his bair will eat it.
If they don't sweetspot the ledge, or they recover very high, predict the up b and uair them at the top of the screen.
Either this matchup will be a long drawn out camp fest, or a struggle to space/grab.
55:45 D3 or even.
Its a camp fest. We throw our stuff, he throws waddle dees.
he air camps, well theres no really set counter for it, just react in a smart way lol.
Then when he goes for grabs, thats the fun part ^_^
Just constantly space nair against his shield and arrow cancel, it works WONDERS. I've played some very good D3 mains and gone entire matches without being grabbed playing this way. Of course your probably gonna get f-tilted if you land after every nair, but thats where things like DJ dair come in handy.
Of course if he does get a grab off, have a bomb/rang out, our your pretty much screwed lol. We have a very predictable recovery, and his bair will eat it.
If they don't sweetspot the ledge, or they recover very high, predict the up b and uair them at the top of the screen.
Either this matchup will be a long drawn out camp fest, or a struggle to space/grab.
55:45 D3 or even.
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2008
- Messages
- 10,050
****ing penguin....
I think it's even. 55:45 DDD is as far as I'll go, but I still stand firm to 50:50.
Both DDD and TL have equal camping abilities, since Waddle-dees and Waddle-doos block all our projectiles. It's just a matter of who can break the barrier first and get control.
DDDs can't be in close range, because that's where the dreaded chain grab comes in. I'm pretty sure we can escape it, but I haven't played against a DDD in a while, so I would need to double check that.
We are faster, and our attacks come out quicker. At the same time, we have to make sure we don't stick in CQC for too long. It's pretty much hit and retreat.
We have to watch out for the Bair. It comes out pretty quick and it's very strong. I would also watch out for the D-Tilt, since it has a decent amount of knockback. I'm not familiar with anything else in DDDs air game, or how easy/hard it is to gimp.
It's like Near says, Nair works like a dream. Nair + QD works even better. As usual, hold a bomb out. It works wonders while getting chain grabbed.
I see FD working both good and bad for us. I don't know what's a good CP.
I think it's even. 55:45 DDD is as far as I'll go, but I still stand firm to 50:50.
Both DDD and TL have equal camping abilities, since Waddle-dees and Waddle-doos block all our projectiles. It's just a matter of who can break the barrier first and get control.
DDDs can't be in close range, because that's where the dreaded chain grab comes in. I'm pretty sure we can escape it, but I haven't played against a DDD in a while, so I would need to double check that.
We are faster, and our attacks come out quicker. At the same time, we have to make sure we don't stick in CQC for too long. It's pretty much hit and retreat.
We have to watch out for the Bair. It comes out pretty quick and it's very strong. I would also watch out for the D-Tilt, since it has a decent amount of knockback. I'm not familiar with anything else in DDDs air game, or how easy/hard it is to gimp.
It's like Near says, Nair works like a dream. Nair + QD works even better. As usual, hold a bomb out. It works wonders while getting chain grabbed.
I see FD working both good and bad for us. I don't know what's a good CP.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
I dont see why you guys say nair to QD works wonders :/. I used to do that a lot against DDD and once the DDD starts getting better @ the matchup. He can powershield both and grab you :/. Not a good idea. Full hop aerials are much safer imo.
It works as long as your not predictable with it lol. Full hop arieals are good in this matchup as well, just as long as your not predictable with those either.
But then again you play Ling ling on a regular basis lol, so you would know this matchup better than I would
RATED
Smash Lord
this matchup is 55:45 or 50:50 depending stage.
since most people have discussed most thing in the matchup , there's one thing : STAGES: best Neutral for TL in this matchup is Smashville, for DDD is battlefield
Counterpicks: TL in Norfair or anystage that promotes Tinks campfest and degrades DDDs CGs, those kind of Stages helps TL a lot in this matchup.
for DDD I think on Pkmn stadium since we can infinite in the wall
----------------------
now in DDDs side of the MU:
waddles are DDDs best friends in this matchup, also we can edgeguard u like no one can ( except MK). IMO I find hard to land DDDs uptilt to TL.
in TLs side of the MU:
I know that u TLs are lovers of campfest so ! start ur hardcore campfest here! bomb are annoying! , also double arrow thingy helps u here, also u can use Zair to get ddd out of ur side and continue the campfest. also u can mix up a random grab since we ddds are shield happy and try to get ddd outstage since u can blow the hell out of DDD throwing the bunch of proyectiles like "Tenten" ( naruto reference).
since most people have discussed most thing in the matchup , there's one thing : STAGES: best Neutral for TL in this matchup is Smashville, for DDD is battlefield
Counterpicks: TL in Norfair or anystage that promotes Tinks campfest and degrades DDDs CGs, those kind of Stages helps TL a lot in this matchup.
for DDD I think on Pkmn stadium since we can infinite in the wall
----------------------
now in DDDs side of the MU:
waddles are DDDs best friends in this matchup, also we can edgeguard u like no one can ( except MK). IMO I find hard to land DDDs uptilt to TL.
in TLs side of the MU:
I know that u TLs are lovers of campfest so ! start ur hardcore campfest here! bomb are annoying!
, also double arrow thingy helps u here, also u can use Zair to get ddd out of ur side and continue the campfest. also u can mix up a random grab since we ddds are shield happy and try to get ddd outstage since u can blow the hell out of DDD throwing the bunch of proyectiles like "Tenten" ( naruto reference).
Power of Slash
Smash Ace
RC isn't really that much of a threat to Tink, + I don't really think D3's even like going there.
Frigate seems way more dangrous than RC to me. I'unno how D3's feel about Japes, but from my perspective atleast that also seems like a viable stage they'd take us to with the given conditions.
Then again, we've already discussed stages in the stage thread... whatever happened to it O_o...
I don't really have any input on this matchup at all. Don't have much D3 experience.
edit: oh it actually says to counter Japes against them... uh... Norfair would be the best choice, and if that's banned... i'unno. Battlefield seems to be a nice stage for us vs. D3.
Frigate seems way more dangrous than RC to me. I'unno how D3's feel about Japes, but from my perspective atleast that also seems like a viable stage they'd take us to with the given conditions.
Then again, we've already discussed stages in the stage thread... whatever happened to it O_o...
I don't really have any input on this matchup at all. Don't have much D3 experience.
edit: oh it actually says to counter Japes against them... uh... Norfair would be the best choice, and if that's banned... i'unno. Battlefield seems to be a nice stage for us vs. D3.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
DDD sux in Jungle Japes. Hes even worst than us there LOL. He is **** in RC there are some parts in which he can walkoff. Avoid walkoff stages at all costs. And counterpick norfair/jj/Smashville.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
^ That is why I said walkoff stages.
I wouldnt use your ban on RC. Just ban delfino and.. win. You guys pretty much said everything, so i'll say a couple of things.. cause sheikant is gonna cry if I dont.
I feel that its an even match up (50-50), and I dont think nair to quick draw is a good idea.
I feel that its an even match up (50-50), and I dont think nair to quick draw is a good idea.
2nLio
Smash Journeyman
The trick is to camp on whatever platform you can find and run out the D3s patience. Once you get them in the air, take as much advantage of that as possible with bairs and nairs.
dont fight him on the ground cuz hes just going for that dumb grab
always hold bomb
if you want fight him on the ground, space zairs and dont let him get near you.
if he starts chaingrabbing, the best thing to do is press A really fast cuz the second they mess up, you jab them away.
whatever you do, dont get impatient cuz once you do, thats when you lost the match
dont fight him on the ground cuz hes just going for that dumb grab
always hold bomb
if you want fight him on the ground, space zairs and dont let him get near you.
if he starts chaingrabbing, the best thing to do is press A really fast cuz the second they mess up, you jab them away.
whatever you do, dont get impatient cuz once you do, thats when you lost the match
fezzmaster
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2007
- Messages
- 57
Yea i was playing against CO18 yesterday and i didnt know what to do but the middle of the second match i realized that if you camp smartly you can win, if you Nair to arrow cancel or Fair to arrow cancel they wont be thinking about it. and its all about staying close enough to use your sword but far enough to not get grabbed. and use a jab cancel to grab or run past pivot grab then dont see it coming. ill post my CO18 match later so you can see.
I lose tho...
I lose tho...
2nLio
Smash Journeyman
more toon links in florida! woot! but um...yea fighting D3 is gay and boring as hell...
dont arrow cancel after the nair cuz i used to do that against D3 thinking it was a good strat but they just perfect shield your arrow and grab you :\
if they start shielding a lot, grab em a couple of times.
if youre going to fl gaming, i shall see you there :D
Lobos
Smash Master
I don't even like using zair + nair in this match up since he can catch in the air at such a ridicules range. Bombs and the boomerang are very good to use in this match up. Also if ddd ever goes of stage and you dair him.....dair again to get an easy spike, its so funny!
CO18
Smash Hero
I suck vs toon link I dunno what to do. My opinion would be bias..lol
My opinion would be bias..lol
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
I decided on 55-45 King Dedede. Will write summary soon.
Hyro
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2008
- Messages
- 1,386
Yeah they usually cp Delfino or Castle Seige but I always ban Fino since it seems more dangerous.
I don't like nair to qd here, his grab range is ridiculous so it scares me. I agree fullhopping aerials is good.
Uhhh....don't know too much good stuff about this matchup...I've never had TOO much trouble with it...I'd say even? He's big as hell so he takes a lotta projectiles but his chaingrabbing sure makes up for it.
I don't like nair to qd here, his grab range is ridiculous so it scares me. I agree fullhopping aerials is good.
Uhhh....don't know too much good stuff about this matchup...I've never had TOO much trouble with it...I'd say even? He's big as hell so he takes a lotta projectiles but his chaingrabbing sure makes up for it.
BKrkr
Smash Apprentice
From my experience as a Toon main against good DDDs, camp the **** out of that fat *** penguin and always keep a bomb in hand (like vs. Metaknight.) Use a bomb throw -> zair early in a stock, but never later, as any good DDD will just powershield and grab you, which means GG. Use Toon's speed, keep the rang out at all times (remember to be doing something when it returns so you don't get that lag,) don't shorthop everything (gets super predictable,) and don't be afraid to use a grounded up-b as a GTFO move.
This match up shouldn't be hard for Toon the way I see it, but I can see how the community believes DDD has an advantage. Be smarter Toon mains!
This match up shouldn't be hard for Toon the way I see it, but I can see how the community believes DDD has an advantage. Be smarter Toon mains!
Chip.
you know what to do
50-50 IMO at high levels of play
DDD can run in and power sheild projectiles and stuff, throw waddle dees and play safe by using Ftilt, and can CG Toon Link. Toon Link's projectiles can murder DDDs approach if spaced correctly though and will win in a camp war (one projectile vs. 3), can combo him really really bad with Bair as well as outspace a lot of his moves with Zair and Nair, and in general is a hard character to get a grab on since he's always running away throwing items.
It's 60/40 in either character's favor though if one knows the matchup better.
DDD can run in and power sheild projectiles and stuff, throw waddle dees and play safe by using Ftilt, and can CG Toon Link. Toon Link's projectiles can murder DDDs approach if spaced correctly though and will win in a camp war (one projectile vs. 3), can combo him really really bad with Bair as well as outspace a lot of his moves with Zair and Nair, and in general is a hard character to get a grab on since he's always running away throwing items.
It's 60/40 in either character's favor though if one knows the matchup better.
Chip.
you know what to do
Get them in the air and theyre pretty easy to read so you can kill them with Uair. Just throw projectiles until theyre at 150% or over and use any move to kill them then; punish them with Usmash or mindgame them with Utilt at like 160% or something.
Just use whatever works!!!!!!!!!!
Just use whatever works
!!!!!!!!!!
Ashraf23
Smash Apprentice
I think D3 should have a bigger adv. i would say 60-40 maybe just maybe 70-30. I don't really think we can out camp him by to much those waddledees are a pain in the rear when they are just walking around lol. Plus he's really heavy and we can barley kill him. Plus we can't really abuse him too much offstage and then of course there's his CG we got to worry about as well. Other than zair do we have anything that can out range him? They can stall us and approach us with bair nicely too.
Idk maybe I'm just trash against DDD lol
Idk maybe I'm just trash against DDD lol
A~Kid/ToonethLinkage
Wants His Own Custom Title
Where the hell is the summary?
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Sorry, when I feel inspired Ill do it >_>. I just dont know where to start :/. Keep talking about the matchup in the meanwhile. I wanna see some more input from some Back roomers on the matchup too :/.
A~Kid/ToonethLinkage
Wants His Own Custom Title
I don't think he has an advantage. We have it even with him.
Mota
"The snake, knowing itself, strikes swiftly"
Don't approach that mofo, you'll get grabbed, spam it up!
Bomb like crazy. Spaced Zairs (of course), and rack up the damage and bait an opening for a kill move. Uair and fair are pretty safeish.
Jump and angle the boomerang down at him when his waddle-dees are rampart.
Arrow cancel shouldn't be used, as they leave you stationary on the stage and are easily dodged. Not worth it.
60-40 DDD, maybe 55-45
Bomb like crazy. Spaced Zairs (of course), and rack up the damage and bait an opening for a kill move. Uair and fair are pretty safeish.
Jump and angle the boomerang down at him when his waddle-dees are rampart.
Arrow cancel shouldn't be used, as they leave you stationary on the stage and are easily dodged. Not worth it.
60-40 DDD, maybe 55-45
MJG
Smash Hero
As for Zair out ranging DDD...well it doesnt @.@.
His F tilt can stop us before we can zair
Lobos
Smash Master
Atomsk should post something here >_>