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America & Science

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thegreatkazoo

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The question here is:
Why is it that America can't grasp the basic ideas of science?

I wager that it is linked to American media's poor grasp on the subject, and their poor transfer of said knowledge to the American public. This is because the public will get most of there information from the media, whether it be good or bad. So, if a poor understanding of science is displayed, then that is what people will believe. This can be easily demonstrated in the fact that Less than 2/5 of Americans believe in evolution

Case in point:
In today's (7/26/2009) issue of Parade, they had an article on the race between Fermilab & the Large Hadron Collider's quest to find the Higgs Boson (aka the God Particle). The article is titled The Race for the Secret of the Universe.

Most of the article is well written, but commits a major gaffe in saying:
The Higgs has been so difficult to find because it decays incredibly quickly—in fireworks terms, it's like a dud rocket without an easily detectable trail. But thanks to the recent discoveries in these control rooms, physicists know better where to look. They're searching for a particle with a mass between 115 and 160 giga-electron volts, which is a little heavier than an atom of silver but lighter than an atom of gold.
Though if one is to look up the meaning of electron-volt, you find:
In physics, the electron volt (symbol eV; also written electronvolt according to the NIST, IUPAC, and BIPM) is a unit of energy. By definition, it is equal to the amount of kinetic energy gained by a single unbound electron when it accelerates through an electrostatic potential difference of one volt. Thus it is 1 volt (1 joule divided by 1 coulomb) multiplied by the electron charge (1.60217653(14)×10−19 coulomb). One electron volt is equal to 1.60217653(14)×10−19 joules.
Which is from the Wikipedia article Electron Volt

Confusing matter with energy is not the way to spread the word of science.

But I want to know what you think? Does the American media do it's job in informing the public about science?

Cheers. :)
 

Fuelbi

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Also PIPA and CISPA
it isnt actually america that cant grasp the basic idea of science but the person himself. obviously these people who put up that definition on the media werent informed enough when putting it up. now what about you said that less than 2/5 than the americans not believing in evolution is because catholics make up the majority of this nation. for example i really am neutral concerning the subject because i am catholic but what it says in the bible is that god created everything. in it says that things like lions were always lions not stuff like cells before that. but as i started growing up i started looking at the all the innaccuracies of the bible. it doesnt mentions the dinosaurs which were real. dinosaurs were supposed to come before all these animals but in the bible they never existed. so long story short since most of the american population are catholics they are not supposed to believe in evolution according to the bible. they are supposed to believe an entity created everything on this earth
 

thegreatkazoo

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it isnt actually america that cant grasp the basic idea of science but the person himself. obviously these people who put up that definition on the media werent informed enough when putting it up. now what about you said that less than 2/5 than the americans not believing in evolution is because catholics make up the majority of this nation. for example i really am neutral concerning the subject because i am catholic but what it says in the bible is that god created everything. in it says that things like lions were always lions not stuff like cells before that. but as i started growing up i started looking at the all the innaccuracies of the bible. it doesnt mentions the dinosaurs which were real. dinosaurs were supposed to come before all these animals but in the bible they never existed. so long story short since most of the american population are catholics they are not supposed to believe in evolution according to the bible. they are supposed to believe an entity created everything on this earth
First, some capitalization would work wonders in your statements. :dizzy:
But aside from that, I have to call shenanigans on your statement.

First, I didn't say anything about Catholics being the majority denomination of America, and even if I did, I could be guilty of equivocating. Though the National Council of Churches, reports 67,515,016 registered members of the Roman Catholic Church, only 23.9% of Americans define themselves as a Catholic, while 51.3% call themselves Protestant.

I said:
I wager that it is linked to American media's poor grasp on the subject, and their poor transfer of said knowledge to the American public. This is because the public will get most of there information from the media, whether it be good or bad. So, if a poor understanding of science is displayed, then that is what people will believe. This can be easily demonstrated in the fact that Less than 2/5 of Americans believe in evolution
I mentioned a poll showing 39% of people believe in the theory of evolution. Nothing else in regard to a denomination.

Also, a cop out shouldn't be given by the media's poor dissemination of facts to the public. We as a nation should hold our respective media outlets responsible for not telling half truths or flat out lies. For example, if one can't see the bulls@#$ in Fox News interviewing Casey Luskin and giving possible validity to the concept for Haeckel’s embryos, then we need to wake up.

Also, just because that people are told to believe something doesn't necessary mean it's true. This is especially true for the Bible, because you could be justified in doing the following for the Bible if you knew where to look (and I do have the sources available on request):
  • ****
  • Incest
  • Torture
  • Genocide
  • And others

However, this isn't even the point. My question was the whether or not you think the American media is doing a decent job on conveying science to the American public, not why religion is retarding said beliefs, though that subject is best left for another day.
 

Hooblah2u2

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The media does a horrible job! Everyone acts like Evolution is a proven fact in the media world...

Also, just because that people are told to believe something doesn't necessary mean it's true. This is especially true for the Bible, because you could be justified in doing the following for the Bible if you knew where to look (and I do have the sources available on request):
You forget to read the rest of the Bible. Like if you read the first half of a math problem, and not the second half, you are likely to get the answer wrong.

Jer 31:31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

I found this on a Yahoo! Answers page:
The Bible does not tell parents to stone their children. You are quoting part of the "law" that was given specifically to Jews (no one else) during a specific time for a specific reason.
Any attempt to apply the law to anyone today would be sheer folly.
We do not live by the 10 commandments today, although it is still wrong to lie ,steal, or murder and so on. The ancients Jews were under the law as a means of their salvation. Any disobedience could only be atoned with blood only- this is the reason for all the sacrifices.
We no longer depend on obedience to the law for our salvation. Christs' sacrifice was final, and was for all.
 

thegreatkazoo

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The media does a horrible job! Everyone acts like Evolution is a proven fact in the media world...


You forget to read the rest of the Bible. Like if you read the first half of a math problem, and not the second half, you are likely to get the answer wrong.

Jer 31:31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

I found this on a Yahoo! Answers page:
First off, let me say that it is pretty nice that you found something on Yahoo Answers, yet you couldn’t provide the link! Way to pull that out of your @$$--allegedly. :p
Okay, with a statement as bold as the one you just made, I will assume you, at the very least, are taking an apologist view point in terms of Christianity.
And so that you don’t claim that I copied and pasted this argument, I will state that parts of the rebuttal have been taken from the following. However, I have adapted them to fit within the context of the debate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahi5FRd5geM&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_LaAx7bSm0&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r31w6kTp7NY&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYsnVMjG4lk&feature=PlayList&p=126AFB53A6F002CC&index=13
First, let’s give a legitimate definition for the word theory…
…a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <the wave theory of light>
This definition doesn’t really vary that much no matter where you search. Please note for this source, this first definition is considered the proper term for theory.
As for the difference in a fact and theory in the scientific sense:
In the most basic sense, a scientific fact is an objective and verifiable observation; in contrast with a hypothesis or theory, which is intended to explain or interpret facts.
Evolution occurring is not debated and has not been debated for a century now. The only debate in regards of how it is occurring (for more, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_LaAx7bSm0&feature=channel_page & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r31w6kTp7NY&NR=1.) Yet, the media portrays it otherwise, as can be seen in some of my previous posts. As for evolution not being observed or speciation not occuring, that too is also false. Which way do you want to eat your BS—fast, or slow? :p

The argument that “You need to read both parts of the Bible to get the whole truth” is not only a fallacious statement, it is also a contradictory one as well. I will be using some quotes in the Bible to prove this so. And just so you don’t accuse me of “camping on one version of the Bible,” I will use multiple versions of it to debunk this claim.
One well known tenet of god is that there is perfection in him and his image, but don’t take my word for it. According to Psalm 19:7:
The law of the LORD is perfect.
Additionally:
As well as this…:
For if justification…comes through…the Law, then Christ (the Messiah) died groundlessly and to no purpose and in vain. [His death was then wholly superfluous.]
Also confirmed in the new Testament as well in John 1:17:
The Law was given by Moses, but Jesus Christ brought us undeserved kindness and truth.
I think you get the point. ;)
Yet in one swoop, the law of the God is violated—through his own purported son no less! :( From the famous story of John 8: 2-11:
Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5Nowin the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?" 6This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." 8And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground.9But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10Jesus stood up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said,”Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."
Yet in Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 17:7, & Deuteronomy 22:22, respectively :
If a man commits adultery with the wife of an Israelite, both he and the woman shall be put to death.
The witnesses' hands are to be the first in putting him to death, and after that, the hands of all the people. You must purge the evil from you.
If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
So much for reading both parts and getting an absolute truth… :laugh:
Picking and choosing which parts of the Bible to believe isn’t a right given to you, especially if the word of God is given to you in an absolute fashion. Also, Pascal’s wager comes into play, because you could also be wrong about your God being the right one. In short, which case for John 8 do you think is right? Even though this post wasn’t made to discuss religion, it is good that someone brought it up, as religion often seems to cloud peoples’ minds on the issue of science.
I normally wouldn’t do this for a closing, but this is worth it. Three years ago, an image was burned to my mind that exhibited such pure ownage that I had to find it to fully described how well I debunked your argument.
Well, here you go:
 

cF=)

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Confusing matter with energy is not the way to spread the word of science.
I think *you* are confusing yourself. Creating matter out of energy happens all the time, but because of conservation laws, you create matter and anti-matter at the same time. However, anti-matter has the unfortunate tendency to combine with matter again, turning the whole thing back into energy.

Einstein's famous E=mc² should've given you a hint about the relationship between matter and energy.
 

thegreatkazoo

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I think *you* are confusing yourself. Creating matter out of energy happens all the time, but because of conservation laws, you create matter and anti-matter at the same time. However, anti-matter has the unfortunate tendency to combine with matter again, turning the whole thing back into energy.

Einstein's famous E=mc² should've given you a hint about the relationship between matter and energy.
No homes, I am not confused. If you took the time and READ THE ARTICLE (which I have 4 times), if the intent was to say matter=energy, then Parade is--at the very least--heavily confusing to its readers.

No where in the article is your above rebuttal mentioned, though it is a valid point. However, it is not within the scope of this text and the question that I asked, which, if you had missed it was:
Why is it that America can't grasp the basic ideas of science?
I raised the idea that it is due to the media not comprehending it very well, and disseminating their poor comprehension to the public.

GD, how much more weak sauce will I have to deal with on this thread? :urg:
 

Hooblah2u2

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First off, let me say that it is pretty nice that you found something on Yahoo Answers, yet you couldn’t provide the link!
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080110180705AAZ5kzj

Picking and choosing which parts of the Bible to believe isn’t a right given to you, especially if the word of God is given to you in an absolute fashion.
All the verses you gave were legitimate, but you are still the one leaving things out. I already gave you the conquering verse:
Jer 31:31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

Yet in one swoop, the law of the God is violated—through his own purported son no less! From the famous story of John 8: 2-11:
The verse I've already given you applies to the story as well. Remember: "New Covenant".
 

cF=)

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No homes, I am not confused. If you took the time and READ THE ARTICLE (which I have 4 times), if the intent was to say matter=energy, then Parade is--at the very least--heavily confusing to its readers.
The eV is an extremely convenient unit of MASS because 1 GeV/c² = 1.783 × 10^(−27) kg. This makes everything easier when working at the scale of a proton, and shows that the eV is both used as a unit of energy AND mass.
 

thegreatkazoo

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http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080110180705AAZ5kzj


All the verses you gave were legitimate, but you are still the one leaving things out. I already gave you the conquering verse:
Jer 31:31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah


The verse I've already given you applies to the story as well. Remember: "New Covenant".
Yeah for not refuting a single point I made. :( If you forgot my points, here they are:
  1. The word theory has a different definition in the scientific sense of that of the common usage of the word.
  2. If the word of God is absolute, then why is there a contradiction from his son
  3. Speciation has occurred, is occuring, and will continue to occur.

Also, just spouting a verse repeatedly doesn't add any more validity to it. Viz how does this verse resolve the contradiction that I mentioned above? Oh, wait you could be playing the Supersessionism card. That's okay if you are, I won't tell. ;) Also, wouldn't people see a problem in picking and choosing what to believe out of the Bible if God's word is just?

Even with all of this, you have gotten me completely sidetracked on the matter at hand. Either add to the debate by giving your two cents on the subject, refute my points from the previous post, or shut the F@#$ up and have a nice day. :bee:

The eV is an extremely convenient unit of MASS because 1 GeV/c² = 1.783 × 10^(−27) kg. This makes everything easier when working at the scale of a proton, and shows that the eV is both used as a unit of energy AND mass.
I know this already, thanks. ;)

My point being is that this was not mentioned in the article, which in turn makes it very confusing for the reader to comprehend.
 

cF=)

Smash Lord
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I know this already, thanks. ;)

My point being is that this was not mentioned in the article, which in turn makes it very confusing for the reader to comprehend.
Then I'm truthfully sorry if I've sidetracked your debate, for I only wanted to make sure nothing stays confusing. It's easy to get lost in the wide world of quantum mechanics when you don't have any theoretical background in that field :)
 

Hooblah2u2

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The word theory has a different definition in the scientific sense of that of the common usage of the word.
I'm not talking about theories at all. Sorry if I confused you.

If the word of God is absolute, then why is there a contradiction from his son
There is no contradiction. You are correct, His word is absolute.

how does this verse resolve the contradiction that I mentioned above?
The "New Covenant" is Jesus. He said He would make a "New Covenant". His word is still absolute. He said things would change, and they did!

Hows that?
 

thegreatkazoo

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I'm not talking about theories at all. Sorry if I confused you.


There is no contradiction. You are correct, His word is absolute.


The "New Covenant" is Jesus. He said He would make a "New Covenant". His word is still absolute. He said things would change, and they did!

Hows that?
Not so good homes. ;)

Okay, you didn't pay heed to the post I spent two hours just to debunk a post you might have spent 4 minutes on and the subsequent ones. Read my posts and then post a response. Please, stop playing the apologetics game! :urg:

However, you will be glad to know that I am looking into to the Jer 31:31 verse to debunk this. However, it is not within the scope of this debates, so I will have to make another thread.

Also, your last statement has nothing to do with the subject at hand, which is the poor comprehension of science in America. There are a lot of things wrong with spouting the Jer 31:31 verse again & again, but the biggest one is that it isn't (and can't be) assessed on a scientific level. Thusly, it has no room for this discussion.

Then I'm truthfully sorry if I've sidetracked your debate, for I only wanted to make sure nothing stays confusing. It's easy to get lost in the wide world of quantum mechanics when you don't have any theoretical background in that field :)
No problems. ;)
These things happen sometimes. :laugh:
 

Hooblah2u2

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Please, stop playing the apologetics game!
Seems to be doing well so far. It took me only a few minutes to nullify the post you spent "two hours" on.

Feel free to make a new thread and we can discuss these things there.
 

thegreatkazoo

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Seems to be doing well so far. It took me only a few minutes to nullify the post you spent "two hours" on.

Feel free to make a new thread and we can discuss these things there.
You can't say you won an argument that you didn't win or refute. This post relates to America and Science, not religion!

You just repeatedly stated that Jer 31:31 resolves the conflict that I posted to you. How does it? You can't just say "Because God says it does" as that is not a valid argument.

See how far that takes you when it comes to jumping to the Debate Hall Proper. Bet that I get there first. :p
 
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I think *you* are confusing yourself. Creating matter out of energy happens all the time, but because of conservation laws, you create matter and anti-matter at the same time. However, anti-matter has the unfortunate tendency to combine with matter again, turning the whole thing back into energy.

Einstein's famous E=mc² should've given you a hint about the relationship between matter and energy.
Um yeah, first off, it's basic knowledge that matter cannot be created nor destroyed. You can't make matter out of energy, as matter is physical and energy is, well, energy.

Second of all, this debate has veered completely off topic.:/
 

thegreatkazoo

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Um yeah, first off, it's basic knowledge that matter cannot be created nor destroyed. You can't make matter out of energy, as matter is physical and energy is, well, energy.

Second of all, this debate has veered completely off topic.:/
I know, sorry about that. Make one reference to how religion =! science and the mother !uckin$ apologists hit the ceiling.

Hopefully someone will put the subject back in hand...
 

cF=)

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Um yeah, first off, it's basic knowledge that matter cannot be created nor destroyed. You can't make matter out of energy, as matter is physical and energy is, well, energy.
(My last post here)

For the sake of precision, no you don't *create* matter per se, but converting (the good word to use, I guess) beams of light (nothing but energy) into matter (electrons and their anti-matter equivalent positrons) has been possible since a 1997 experiment conducted at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center (SLAC). Neutron stars are also thought to have some light-to-matter interaction at their surface, because their incredibly strong magnetic field resembles the one used in the experiment mentioned above.

Converting energy into matter isn't new to physicists, though. Conventional accelerators normally use protons that are destroyed during the experiment, bursting into *virtual photons* which go on to form new particles. This is the perfect example of matter turning into energy, turning back into matter, and finally ending as energy.
 

balladechina212

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See how far that takes you when it comes to jumping to the Debate Hall Proper. Bet that I get there first. :p
Hmm I thought I had something good to contribute to this argument (against thegreatkazoo) but I think I'll refrain. Just reading that statement makes it feel like that this (he) is not worth my time.

Edit: Lol I don't care if I get in trouble with the mods for this (not sure if I will) but I really needed to make that point across that debating is NOT about elevation of your rank, level, etc. (such as to the Debate Hall). I would look up sources for this but it seems like an obvious point.
 

thegreatkazoo

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o rly?

Hmm I thought I had something good to contribute to this argument (against thegreatkazoo) but I think I'll refrain. Just reading that statement makes it feel like that this (he) is not worth my time.

Edit: Lol I don't care if I get in trouble with the mods for this (not sure if I will) but I really needed to make that point across that debating is NOT about elevation of your rank, level, etc. (such as to the Debate Hall). I would look up sources for this but it seems like an obvious point.
What the %uck is that supposed to mean?!?! It's as if you want to piss me off...:urg:

Look, if you really think that I am trying to curry favor by debating in some sort of way...child please (if you don't what it means, look it up. :bee:). My last line on that post was in reference to Hooblah's (sometimes) p!ss poor arguments not letting him progress in terms of becoming a DH proper, but that is another story.

However, if you have a new take on the question, I will be glad to hear it. :)
 

balladechina212

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Why is it necessary to antagonize a person's argumentative skills? Simply debunk their arguments, and be polite about it.

Nah I'm done here. I'm afraid I would get too heated in this America & Science topic, so I'll look elsewhere.

P.S. Congrats on DH
 

thegreatkazoo

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Why is it necessary to antagonize a person's argumentative skills? Simply debunk their arguments, and be polite about it.

Nah I'm done here. I'm afraid I would get too heated in this America & Science topic, so I'll look elsewhere.
Sometimes politeness wears thin. If you are new here, you will quickly know what I mean.

Your opinion is still welcome, though. :)

P.S. Congrats on DH
Gracias. :)
 
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