Zero Suit Matchup Discussion - The Unproven - Pokemon Trainer

Camalange said:

xD

57:43 is definitley interesting...I don't really care about MU ratios tbh, and this makes me laugh. That works as long as you don't give that out to any other character board ; )



Agreed.



No problem, we started on a bad note, but I'm glad we could work things out :D

It's apparent both our boards have problems with players not completely understanding the metagame of our characters. We already kinda had this built up anger from past discussions >_>

Click to expand...

I co-sign every thing this guys says for the rest of my life

57:43 is kind of dumb... The whole ratio system needs reworking but adding more numbers is not the way to do. I'd say its a slight advantage to ZSS and to me slight advantage is 55:45.

I'd also going to add that I really hate this matchup and its incredibly boring and sucky. Just saying.

I am going to throw this out here I honestly have no idea what a correct ratio would be, because like nobody here that mains sonic isn't trash, and there are few non trash ZSS's as well, this match is pure theory, I hate that, I want ???:??? as the matchup.

Well we're just about done here so who's next?

Pokemon Trainer, then probably Wolf.

Tien2500 said:

I'd also going to add that I really hate this matchup and its incredibly boring and sucky. Just saying.

Click to expand...

Whenever I played this matchup, I found it really intense and exciting, actually. Lol, just the opposite of you.

noradseven said:

because like nobody here that mains sonic isn't trash.

Click to expand...

Whoa whoa whoa, I can definitely vouch for Cam's Sonic, it's legit, and Kinzer seems very knowledgeable too. Think before you speak, norad.

sasook said:

Whoa whoa whoa, I can definitely vouch for Cam's Sonic, it's legit, and Kinzer seems very knowledgeable too. Think before you speak, norad.

Click to expand...

While I do not doubt the prowess of a good sonic, I believe norad was referring to the other 80-90% of sonic users that are complete trash. You know, the ones that are really easy to beat because they spam side b.

sasook said:

Whenever I played this matchup, I found it really intense and exciting, actually. Lol, just the opposite of you.

Click to expand...

Maybe I've just played crappy Sonics. They both have trouble KOing eachother and I tend to play a bit (too) defensive so towards the end of a stock it gets ridiculous.

Zero_ said:

Pokemon Trainer, then probably Wolf.

Click to expand...

Yay. Trainer. I can be useful . Discussing it is kind of pointless though. Its 100:0 Trainer. As long as you figured out the cheat to catch Mewtwo.

Maybe it will bring a new perspective on the matchup. ^_^

Anywho I finished the Sonic writeup, so let's move onto the Pokemon Trainer!

POKEMON TRAINER

with zero switch, squitle is a problem .

I agree with norad. That makes RC not such a good stage vs PT which is a pretty big blow unfortunately. =/

Ivysaur is still possibly ZSS' easiest match-up, easier than Ganon or ROB, but it doesn't matter a whole lot with the advent of Ivysaur Cancelling.

Baton Pass? I don't know much about PT. What does that mean, exactly?

I know that Ivysaur is a very easy matchup for us (something like 65:35 or 70:30, I'd say). Our long-raneg attacks negate her Bair spacing, forcing her to approach, and once you get her off-stage she's too easy to gimp.

As for Charizard and Squirtle... I have absolutely no idea. I assume that Squirtle would be harder, since Charizard can be comboed easier, but really I don't know at all...

mountain_tiger said:

Baton Pass? I don't know much about PT. What does that mean, exactly?

I know that Ivysaur is a very easy matchup for us (something like 65:35 or 70:30, I'd say). Our long-raneg attacks negate her Bair spacing, forcing her to approach, and once you get her off-stage she's too easy to gimp.

As for Charizard and Squirtle... I have absolutely no idea. I assume that Squirtle would be harder, since Charizard can be comboed easier, but really I don't know at all...

Click to expand...

You're on the right track. Ivysaur is easily ZSS' easiest match-up. Well, I don't know. Ganon might be easier but not by much. =/

Charizard is a solid 6:4 our favor for some of the same reasons most heavy/big characters are. Also you can chain grab Charizard, but he can buffer and jump out at some points... sometimes... at random. I can't figure out why he can jump out. Sometimes he can jump out at a given percent and sometimes he can't, it's really strange.

Squirtle is the worst of them. It's probably 6:4 Squirtle's favor, he combos us very well and our infinite is banned, lol.

As for match-up specifics I'll hold off because Zero has a lot of experience vs a great PT player and can tell a lot more than I can.

Baton Bass: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOkF2HuSaak

Squirtle can take ZSS in the air. His aerials are shorter ranged but are quicker than yours (except Uair and maybe nair). And have really high priority. He's also a bit more agile then you are in the air. If he can stay on top of you in the air he can be trouble. You'll have to be incredibly careful with your spacing, which he can disrupt pretty well.

On the ground Squirtle again lacks range. His jab is as fast as yours and if he can DI to the ground he can interupt your jab combo with his. His ftilt is also very quick and is his best tilt. Utilt can combo you a few times but isn't a major threat. Dtilt outranges anything he has so spacing again is key.

Squirtle has a pretty good grab game. Fifth longest non tether grab in the game. His throws are decent and his dthrow is a good KO move (his best).

He has a few other tricks you should know about. His pivot animation does not lose any momentum (and it ducks) and he can do a few near things out of it. He can do a sliding Usmash, Dsmash, or do an extended grab that will drag you 1/3 of the way across FD. Nothing impossible to deal with but be aware of this or you may find yourself getting KOed by an USmash early on.

In terms of gimping you have the edge on him. His UP B has a large disjointed hitbox but it doesn't protect him from above so if he's careless he can get flipspiked or possibly Dsmashed. If he's recovering from above his speed, and aerials should help him get to the stage safely.

KO moves- His Usmash will KO at very low percentages. Probably a bit below 100 with good DI. I'll have to check on that. While this is his most powerful KO move its not that easy to land. His Dthrow is his best KO move and should KO @ about 115 off the edge of a stage. Fsmash can KO and has super armor but is hard to use. A fresh fair can ko but it will only be fresh if he just switched in.

Your normal KO moves work but might be hard to land with his air game and size. Uair is the easiest to land against him IMO if you can get underneath him. If you can hit Dsmash it should work too but that may be difficult to land. Side B is also hard to land and only does 90% of normal knockback.

Overall its 55:45 Squirtle or possibly even 60:40. Any character that has the advantage in the air is going to be problematic.

I should mention that ZSS has a chaingrab on Squirtle but its just a pummel and he can get out with a groundbreak. Also you shouldn't really be able to grab Squirtle anyways.

I use Ivy the least so hopefully someone with a better Ivy will come to do a better analysis. Ivy thrives at keeping opponents at midrange but ZSS does well there too. Razor leafs are somewhat useful but not fast enough to really camp with. Ivy's Bair is quick and outranges all of ZSS' aerials but doesn't do much damage. Its helpful but not enough and otherwise Ivy's airgame isn't good enough to compete overall. Nair is quick but lacks range, Fair has range but lacks speed, bair has speed and range and lacks power. Uair is a powerful but telegraghed finisher. Dair and nair can spike (nairs is weak though).

In any event you can take Ivy in the air on the ground, on the stage and off the stage. On a car or in a bar,in a house with a mouse, you can beat him here or there, you can beat him anywhere. Seriously not a good match for Ivy especially with Side B being fire. 65:35. Maybe its 60:40 and its just because my Ivy sucks.

Zard vs ZSS is an interesting one. ZSS is good at getting combos and Chairzard is good at getting comboed. At 0% charizard will have a tough time with combos.

Charizard has very good spacing tools though. Flamethrower and Rocksmash are great (although careless flamethrower can be punished). Rocksmash is an amazing move. The headbutt deals 18% with high knockback. The rock shards work as projectile. If he hits with the whole thing it does about 45% damage. Spotdodging it is a bad idea and it eats through shields. If your shield isn't full you might not be able to block the whole thing. If you powershield it though then you should be able to Utilt Zard and juggle him depending on the spacing of it. I think dtilt should work too. Dunno for sure. The move also functions as a pseudo counter. If you hit him out of it the rock shatters and hits you.

Zard is outmatched in the air but not entirely helpless. Fair is useful for a gtfo. Bair has good priority, good power and spikes if it hits just so. Uair lasts long enough to hit you out of an airdodge. Dair is disjointed so if he spaces it right he can clash with your Uair or possibly hit you out of it if your spacing is off.

Charizard is very fast (fast as Pikachu on the ground) so he can punish shielded side Bs and limit your paralyzer. Side B does normal damage. No fire resistance.

Charizard is big and gets shieldstabbed easily so thats worth noting.

Charizard has great grab range and can standing regrab you if you don't react right. He has some nice grab release options including Dtilt, regrab, and Fsmash. Yes Fsmash. If you spotdodge and he predicts it his FSmash should come out just after you come out of your spotdodge. Generally I'll try to find my opponents preferred option and punish accordingly.

Charizard's main KO moves are sweetspotted Dtilt (which is very quick and has horizontal knockback), and Usmash (also very quick with vertical knockback), and Rocksmash (vertical but not straight up). If he can get you with an Fsmash past 90 ish you're probably gone but its not dependable. If you're offstage and he gets you with Fair or dair you're also done but be careful with your recovery and you should be ok.

Charizard is heavy so the best way to KO is to gimp him. Fair/bair off the stage, side B, Up B if he recovers high, and flipspike when its appropriate. Be aware of the super armor on his Up B. This can also be used to get out of a sticky situation, but it has its risks. If you can't get him while he's off the stage he's likely to last past 150 with good DI.

Charizard has some good tools to space against ZSS and deal damage. He only has one real weakness in this match but its a big weakness. When dealing with an air game as good as ZSS' being an easily juggled character is not a good thing. I'd say its 60:40 ZSS but with the gap in survival it may be a little closer to 45:55.

Overall its hard to say. It depends on how good the Trainer is at keeping Squirtle in and Ivy out. Its also a bit stage dependent. On smashville (and some other stages such as Lylat, pirate ship, parts of RC and maybe some others I forget) trainer can switch without lag meaning they don't have to use much Ivy. On a stage like FD though Ivy may find it hard to find an opportunity to switch. If he switches at the wrong time then Dsmash, Dsmash, Usmash/Dthrow/Uair and you're already down 50%.

For an overall ratio if they have to use Ivy then I'd say its about 60-40 ZSS. If they can get out of using Ivy then it goes to about 55:45 ZSS.

I'd agree with everything, a few things though:

Squirtle's aerials are faster than ZSS' but they don't have higher priority. Also Uair is I think faster than Squirtle's. He's still a PITA in the air though, you can't always use uair.

Squirtle's jab wrecks ours unmercifully, it has higher priority and like you said he can DI down and interrupt our jab combo with his sadface

I think that Ivysaur is getting outranged here and that really screws him. =(

But on Zero Lag stages PT will probably switch him out really quick and just go with Zard and Squirtle.

Supermodel From Paris said:

I'd agree with everything, a few things though:

Squirtle's aerials are faster than ZSS' but they don't have higher priority. Also Uair is I think faster than Squirtle's. He's still a PITA in the air though, you can't always use uair.

Squirtle's jab wrecks ours unmercifully, it has higher priority and like you said he can DI down and interrupt our jab combo with his sadface

Click to expand...

I don't think I said they had higher priority. But anyway its true they don't. Fairs should probably clash which is better for Squirtle I think. Bair has better priority than Squirtle's fair and I think maybe his bair. ZSS' nair obviously has better priority than most of his aerials. Squirtles Nair is also completely disjointed.

I think ZSS' uair is a little quicker than Squirtles Uair but it doesn't really matter too much. I can't forsee a situation where they'd both be trying to Uair eachother. Although if such a situation occurred it would be really awesome.

Wow, never knew about the Zero switch...that's interesting.

Anyways,

Tien2500 said:

KO moves- His Usmash will KO at very low percentages. Probably a bit below 100 with good DI. I'll have to check on that.

Click to expand...

I tested this in training mode. I made ZSS stand at the center of FD (made her die and respawn, then didn't move her, assuming this was the center) for a constant position, and I put Squirtle right next to her, and used usmash with him. As ZSS, I was able to live to 144% with DI. At 145% I died, no matter what I did. But I could live pretty easily to 143%, and though it was difficult and needed like, godly DI, 144% was possible as well. I was able to get 144% consistently, it's just tough.

Note - this was with uair momentum cancel only. I did not use flipjump, nor regular jump, to aid breaking my momentum. And... I don't really feel like testing them. lol

EDIT: I dunno if Squirtle has multiple hitboxes on this move, or if different 'spots' have different knockback and whatnot. When I tested this, Squirtle's attack would do approximately 11% and ZSS would be in the middle of the "stream."

Tien2500 said:

His Dthrow is his best KO move and should KO @ about 115 off the edge of a stage.

Click to expand...

Tested this on FD in training mode as well. I made ZSS teeter at the edge, then made Squirtle dash grab her so he was literally on the edge and she was offstage. I did a dthrow.

This is what I got:

Uair momentum cancel only - 162%. At 163%, she died, no matter what I tried.
Uair + flipjump - 167%. at 168%, she died, no matter what I tried.

There's 2 ways to DI this dthrow Squirtle has. One is the traditional way, up and towards the stage. If you do that, don't use the flip jump, you'll kill yourself early off the top. That's how I got the first result.

The second way, using the flip jump, is to hold down and towards the stage. Basically, aim at Squirtle's feet or something. Use uair to momentum cancel and the flip jump just after, and you'll get the results I got for the second method.


Again, you gotta DI like a god, but at least you know it's possible.

sasook said:

Wow, never knew about the Zero switch...that's interesting.

Anyways,



I tested this in training mode. I made ZSS stand at the center of FD (made her die and respawn, then didn't move her, assuming this was the center) for a constant position, and I put Squirtle right next to her, and used usmash with him. As ZSS, I was able to live to 144% with DI. At 145% I died, no matter what I did. But I could live pretty easily to 143%, and though it was difficult and needed like, godly DI, 144% was possible as well. I was able to get 144% consistently, it's just tough.

Note - this was with uair momentum cancel only. I did not use flipjump, nor regular jump, to aid breaking my momentum. And... I don't really feel like testing them. lol

EDIT: I dunno if Squirtle has multiple hitboxes on this move, or if different 'spots' have different knockback and whatnot. When I tested this, Squirtle's attack would do approximately 11% and ZSS would be in the middle of the "stream."

Click to expand...

Hmmm... That doesn't seem right. From my personal experience nobody has lived past 125. And yes it does have different hitboxes. Squirtle should be right next to the opponent. If you hit them when they're airborne with like the top of the stream the move has pretty meh power. If someone would test this out for me that'd be good. My DI is good but not great.

Tested this on FD in training mode as well. I made ZSS teeter at the edge, then made Squirtle dash grab her so he was literally on the edge and she was offstage. I did a dthrow.

This is what I got:

Uair momentum cancel only - 162%. At 163%, she died, no matter what I tried.
Uair + flipjump - 167%. at 168%, she died, no matter what I tried.

There's 2 ways to DI this dthrow Squirtle has. One is the traditional way, up and towards the stage. If you do that, don't use the flip jump, you'll kill yourself early off the top. That's how I got the first result.

The second way, using the flip jump, is to hold down and towards the stage. Basically, aim at Squirtle's feet or something. Use uair to momentum cancel and the flip jump just after, and you'll get the results I got for the second method.


Again, you gotta DI like a god, but at least you know it's possible.

Click to expand...

I've never tested this out but thats definitely higher than anyone I've played has lived. So unless everyone I've ever played has had crap DI then thats a bit high. If anyone can test either verify or disprove these numbers then that would help.

Edit: So I did a bit of testing on my own. My original estimate of "a bit below 100%" is definitely off. With absolutely no DI it kills at about 85. With DI I've been able to live at like 110%. Of course I'm using both controllers so its a bit tough to DI properly. 144 seems completely out of reach though. She goes off the stage so fast its ridiculous. Test again and make sure you're sweetspotting the Usmash. Right next to Squirtle.

I tested the Dthrow too and haven't been able to survive past 130 and even then not consistently. Again my DI isn't amazing and with me doing both parts it might be even tougher.

Tien2500 said:

Hmmm... That doesn't seem right. From my personal experience nobody has lived past 125. And yes it does have different hitboxes. Squirtle should be right next to the opponent. If you hit them when they're airborne with like the top of the stream the move has pretty meh power. If someone would test this out for me that'd be good. My DI is good but not great.

Click to expand...

Np, I can retest with Squirtle right next to her. When I tested it, Squirtle was about...maybe 1 or 3/4th Squirtle lengths away, if you can picture that.

Tien2500 said:

I've never tested this out but thats definitely higher than anyone I've played has lived. So unless everyone I've ever played has had crap DI then thats a bit high. If anyone can test either verify or disprove these numbers then that would help.

Click to expand...

I can record it in a vid if you don't believe me. xD

What am i doing here?

anyway those numbers sound like a fatigued squirtle... which will happen if you are testing when moves will KO, its bound to take more than 2 minutes

I know moves don't decay in training mode. Does Squirtle get fatigued in training mode? O_o

sasook said:

Np, I can retest with Squirtle right next to her. When I tested it, Squirtle was about...maybe 1 or 3/4th Squirtle lengths away, if you can picture that.



I can record it in a vid if you don't believe me. xD

Click to expand...

That distance sounds off. Videos would be good actually lol.

sasook said:

I know moves don't decay in training mode. Does Squirtle get fatigued in training mode? O_o

Click to expand...

Yep. He certainly does so that might explain things. Fatigue makes moves do 33% less knockback so if you take that into account the different numbers we got sort of correlate. Fun fact I found outwhile testing this out, Squirtle's fatigued animation makes him hunch over. While he does this ZSS grab will go right over him. He does stand up for a second before slouching again so you can grab him then.

Other fun fact, you can Down Smash Squirtle out of his withdraw. This is pretty useless since Squirtle will rarely use withdraw but there you go.

sasook said:

I know moves don't decay in training mode. Does Squirtle get fatigued in training mode? O_o

Click to expand...

Yes he does. 160% on the edge seems awfully high for a fresh non-fatigued Squirtle DThrow on someone as light as ZSS.

mountain_tiger said:

Yes he does. 160% on the edge seems awfully high for a fresh non-fatigued Squirtle DThrow on someone as light as ZSS.

Click to expand...

Yeah that seems about right for Falcon or Link or something. If Squirtle can't KO ZSS below 160 I'm going to get a new secondary.

Z.Suit has really good momentum cancelling and can live longer than most light characters.

Of course 160 does seem high...

Alright, lemme retest making sure Squirtle isn't fatigued. Didn't realize it happens even in training mode.

EDIT: Just retested dthrow. Alright, these percentages should make more sense

Uair + flipjump - 124%. At 125%, I died.

About to test uair only.

EDIT 2: Same results. 124% live, 125% died.

God testing this is annoying lol. Gotta keep exiting and reentering and stuff.

Lemme test usmash next.

That sounds much more realistic. Thanks for taking the time to test it.

Alright, with usmash, I couldn't live at 107%. At 106% I could, but 107% I'd die. I made sure he wasn't fatigued.


Jeez, what a huge difference in percentages between fresh and fatigue O_O

Can Squirtle utilt lock ZSS?

Also, lol @ Ivysaur. PT trainers should go for a Zero Switch ASAP in that match-up. And since they will, try to punish it by covering the ground below them with a Plasma Whip. Don't try to punish it up close. Since Zard gets no jumps, he'll have to fall into it. He can airdodge or SA through with Rock Smash or Fly, but either way, it's worth it, because you either do damage, or can punish the airdodge.

sasook said:

Alright, lemme retest making sure Squirtle isn't fatigued. Didn't realize it happens even in training mode.

EDIT: Just retested dthrow. Alright, these percentages should make more sense

Uair + flipjump - 124%. At 125%, I died.

About to test uair only.

EDIT 2: Same results. 124% live, 125% died.

God testing this is annoying lol. Gotta keep exiting and reentering and stuff.

Lemme test usmash next.

Click to expand...

sasook said:

Alright, with usmash, I couldn't live at 107%. At 106% I could, but 107% I'd die. I made sure he wasn't fatigued.


Jeez, what a huge difference in percentages between fresh and fatigue O_O

Click to expand...

Yeah. Your numbers are in line with what I got. Good to know that Squirtle isn't that weak and/or my DI isn't that bad. Also keep in mind if you fall for a hydroplane (sliding Usmash) its going to be charged a bit before it gets to you. It shouldn't be a problem to avoid but if you don't know he can do it it may surprise you.

Btw fatigue reduces knockback of attacks to about 2/3 of their normal knockback.

ph00tbag said:

Can Squirtle utilt lock ZSS?

Also, lol @ Ivysaur. PT trainers should go for a Zero Switch ASAP in that match-up. And since they will, try to punish it by covering the ground below them with a Plasma Whip. Don't try to punish it up close. Since Zard gets no jumps, he'll have to fall into it. He can airdodge or SA through with Rock Smash or Fly, but either way, it's worth it, because you either do damage, or can punish the airdodge.

Click to expand...

Squirtle can utilt lock ZSS. Its not really that bad unless its against fastfallers though which ZSS is not. So expect 3-4 up tilts followed by an up air or two. After a couple of hits or at high enough percentages ZSS should be able to just jump out so Squirtle may just try it once before going to Uair or Nair.

As for switching yeah Charizard gets no jumps so plasma wire is a good option. He can't SA through it with Rocksmash (which doesn't have super armor ) or Fly (which would make him take the damage and be more vulnerable than taking the hit would make him. Basically his best option is to airdodge there.

I agree on pretty much everything said about Squirtle... better jab, better air game, hard to land KO moves on.

Ivysaur definitely has it tough. ZSS's moves are faster than all of his aerials except b-air and n-air, and they beat out n-air. b-air isn't even all that useful in this matchup since ZSS can outrange it so easily. Then on the ground all his moves get outranged by side-b. Not fun...Ivy can really only do anything if ZSS overextends herself. He really can't do much against a smart defensive wall.

Honestly I think Charizard is almost as bad as Ivy. ZSS's moves are way too fast, and the jab especially gives Zard issues. The things you need to watch out for are Rock Smash, u-smash, and the grab range. The rock will shatter on frame 3 if you hit it, and the shards could do over 30%. It can also be deceptive in its range (the outermost shard actually flies out quite far) and duration, so characters that have to rush in to punish often get hit by the lingering shards when they try, but ZSS can punish it easily with forward-b. U-smash will kill pretty early, and comes out pretty quickly. Because of the nature of the two characters, once ZSS gets a hit in, you can probably be more aggressive and keep the pressure on. Especially on smaller stages, it'll be pretty hard for Zard to reset to a neutral positioning. You should also know that Zard is really vulnerable if he's in the air above you... u-airs, u-smashes, up-b's all day =(

I don't think it's that squirtle's air game is better, it just ***** ZSS because it pokes her blind spots. I really hate him in the air though.

I meant that specifically in this matchup Squirtle beats ZSS in the air, so we're saying the same thing?

t-block said:

I agree on pretty much everything said about Squirtle... better jab, better air game, hard to land KO moves on.

Ivysaur definitely has it tough. ZSS's moves are faster than all of his aerials except b-air and n-air, and they beat out n-air. b-air isn't even all that useful in this matchup since ZSS can outrange it so easily. Then on the ground all his moves get outranged by side-b. Not fun...Ivy can really only do anything if ZSS overextends herself. He really can't do much against a smart defensive wall.

Honestly I think Charizard is almost as bad as Ivy. ZSS's moves are way too fast, and the jab especially gives Zard issues. The things you need to watch out for are Rock Smash, u-smash, and the grab range. The rock will shatter on frame 3 if you hit it, and the shards could do over 30%. It can also be deceptive in its range (the outermost shard actually flies out quite far) and duration, so characters that have to rush in to punish often get hit by the lingering shards when they try, but ZSS can punish it easily with forward-b. U-smash will kill pretty early, and comes out pretty quickly. Because of the nature of the two characters, once ZSS gets a hit in, you can probably be more aggressive and keep the pressure on. Especially on smaller stages, it'll be pretty hard for Zard to reset to a neutral positioning. You should also know that Zard is really vulnerable if he's in the air above you... u-airs, u-smashes, up-b's all day =(

Click to expand...

his air game is not as good the problem is most of ZSS's moves except for u-air, are sniper style moves and guess what your tiny as hell.

t-block said:

I meant that specifically in this matchup Squirtle beats ZSS in the air, so we're saying the same thing?

Click to expand...

Yeah.

noradseven said:

his air game is not as good the problem is most of ZSS's moves except for u-air, are sniper style moves and guess what your tiny as hell.

Click to expand...

Not that its particularly relevant here but I'd say that Squirtle's air game is better than ZSS' overall or at least equal. ZSS' air game is great and one of the best against other airborne characters but overall Squirtle's is better for approaching, crossups, poking, and such. Of course Squirtles aerials really can't KO.

And T-block, Charizard is not nearly as bad as Ivy here. Charizard has some problems but Ivy is borderline useless. At least Charizard can stock tank while Squirtle recharges, can hit his KO moves fairly consistently, and can do quite a bit of damage if ZSS messes up her spacing. All Ivy can do is suck and die. And pray to get lucky with Usmash.

lol...yeah I figured I was probably playing Charizard vs ZSS all wrong... against the ZSS in my region it was so bad I was relying in Squirtle/Ivy instead of Squirtle/Charizard. As Charizard in this matchup I shield a lot, and use grabs to do most of my damage, with the occasional u-smash. Rock Smash is nowhere near as safe here as it is in most matchups. Between neutral-b, side-b, and one frame jab it's really hard for Zard to get in close.

I wasn't going to bring it up, but I do agree that Squirtle's air game is better than ZSS's overall as well as in this matchup