.:Wolf Doubles Discussion:.

Wolf Doubles Discussion
A directory to doubles discussions...

If you have a question, just post your question, and we will discuss immediately...

1. Bowser as a partner
2. Wario as a partner
3. Snake as a partner

Extra post #1

I think that two extra posts might've been a bit much >_> but idk, depends on what you'll use them for.

Is this thread going to go on a rotation through all the characters, or will it be more or less bringing some random character up and just going with the flow?

Well, if everyone supports the thread, then we'll be going alphabetically. This is what I hope. We'd be starting with bowser. How we're going to do this specifically is already in the thread.

You called ICs, Jigglypuff, Marth Peach, Samus, Sheik, Zelda, and ZSS "he". Just sayin >_>

The format is beautiful <3

So, I support doubles, because doubles are fun and Wolf ***** in doubles. Bowser, I have no real input as of right now, but let's get started!

I don't know too much about Wolf in teams, but I'm going to try.

Firstly, Bowser can't help Wolf very well if Wolf is in trouble. Bowser has laggy moves and is easily comboed, because of this he can't really help.

Bowser might help Wolf in getting kills, because it seems the Wolf boards consider Wolf to have bad kills moves. He could also help at getting % with hiss side-b etc.

The risk of teaming with Bowser is obviously getting gimped. Both Wolf and Bowser get gimped easily. One of the good things of teaming with Bowser is that you both live 'til very high % (or are supposed to). Getting an early kill (which is possible with Bowser) could result into having a huge advantage because you live longer than other chars. Especially with Bowser, because he also deals a lot of damage.

Team combo's:

One of the best combo options is obviously Bowser's side-b. It gives you time to react and position yourself to combo (easy for combo's). It deals a lot of damage and if you laser or dair you opponent, the Bowser might be able to side-b again. Any other move just deals good damage.

Another good move to combo with is Bowser's neutral B. It temporarily stuns the opponent and once again give you time to combo if you're not close to Bowser. It gives you a free laser, fair, bair, dair etc. Also good for damage building.

I'd recommend using dair when team comboing. It allows Bowser to hit another time or at least pressure (tech chase). That's how I combo with my team partner (to rephrase: I use spikes for team combo's).

For team combo's starting with Wolf I'd recommend d-throw (on lower %). Bowser can use f-smash etc out of this and can even side-b to continue the combo. Bair also works well for team combo's (bair -> Bowser fair etc.)

Stage control:

Stage control might be one of the things you'll have problems with when teaming with Bowser. Like mentioned before, Bowser is slow and has few options to quickly clean the playing field. Of either of you get comboed or grabbed, it will be hard to gain control again.

Another thing to remember is that both Wolf and Bowser and characters that aren't much in the air (Wolf isn't floaty and kills on the ground). Try to get the opponent in the air, both Bowser and Wolf are great with opponents above them.

Might add some stuff later here.

Team strategies:

You should obviously both try to stay away from the edges. I'm not sure if lasering with Wolf is a good idea when teaming with Bowser, as Bowser has a hard time taking on two opponents. Seperating the opponents and team comboing should be your main goal I think.

Never try to CG with Bowser, it doesn't pay off if your opponent's team partner hits you. So unless you can get the kill by using the GR, don't try. Throwing the opponent to gain control on the stage is a better option.

Wolf is good at keeping the opponent away with lasers, if Bowser is destroying, do this. Wolf is extremely good at keeping an opponent away. If you manage to throw or hit the opponent away with Wolf and you can't edge guard (which is the the case a lot of the time), team combo with Bowser.

I'm not very experienced with Bowser, so if you have better ideas regarding this matchup, feel free to help me out.

Well no other character works really well as Wolf because Wolf isn't that good in teams...You're better off just using MK in teams...Maybe a discussion of how to play effectively in doubles and stage selection would be more helpful...Since me and JJ would usually separate into two 1v1's, with Wolf zoning with Bairs to prevent one of them from getting access to the center (Very good if your partner has a problem matchup), while I fight the other one. The reason why Wolf is bad in teams is because he has a big blind spot behind him, if the other team knows how to exploit this then you're in trouble (It works if your both able to control the center)...But it is hard to do it against certain characters, MK can easily bypass you to the center.

Bowser is terrible in teams cuz he's too big. He gets tons of % fast which nullifies his potential to be a good stock tank.

I think doubles are kinda general in the sense that some characters are good in doubles and others arent with maybe a couple exceptions. Like GnW is good in teams, but with anyone who has a projectile he's even better. But yea, thats just my opinion. Characters always kinda carry out the same function in teams, like how D3 sets up kills a lot better than others caz dthrow. Yea I don't really feel like elaborating more but I can if anyone wants. Again im saying this just as my opinion not like fact or anything.

Frankly, I have no idea about Bowser.

But I can give input about Link. It might be a little out of order, but I'd just try and get discussion flowing first before worrying about the order of the discussion.

So. Link.
Both have pretty bad recoveries. This sounds like it would be really bad.
However, both characters' recoveries were meant simply to get them to the ledge. If it weren't for ledgehogging and gimping, both Link and Wolf would usually live fairly long and make it back to the stage time and time again to keep fighting. Most interestingly, both characters have good zoning games that can be used to protect their teammate as they try to make it back to the ledge. They can block off opponents with projectiles, or Wolf can use his annoying bair to create walls that prevent the opponents from rushing to finish Link off. In Link's case, Wolf is a savior: he is just the boost Link needed to break free from his horrible recovery and become a strong in-game character and partner for doubles.
Both characters have unique spam games that fit into each other quite nicely. A Wolf that FH blasters or just sits around blastering on the ground, combined with a Link that is hopping arrows, boomerangs, and bombs, can easily camp around opponents, something not easy to do in Singles or Doubles.
Wolf's dair can be used to ground an opponent after one of Link's throws, setting up for a jablock. Wolf's spike isn't laggy, however, and so he can easily pop in one moment to set up the jab lock, and the next second go back to pressuring the other opponent with bairs and lasers. Even if the opponent in the jab lock knows how to DI out of it, the jab lock will build up plenty of damage and set Link up for one of many finishers. Its like a dream come true for both characters.
In short, both characters support each other very well in overall playstyle.

Problematic Match-ups: Both characters have trouble against the demonic D3, most especially Wolf. However, Link has no issue shooting an arrow or whacking D3 out of the CG with any of his projectiles or other attacks, and it can be done to support Wolf from long range and with barely an interruption in Link's battle against the other opponent. Wolf has the aerial mobility to hit D3 just hard enough once he has Link offstage to allow Link to recover. Frankly, both suffer against D3, but both support the other against him quite well.
MK: I don't have any experience, but both characters have in-general problems against MK gimping them. Although projectiles will be nice for interrupting a potential gimp against the MK, the recovering player is pretty much on his own, as MK likes to gimp low off the stage.
Olimar: Link has plenty of trouble against Olimar, but Wolf has very little difficulty. A Wolf player should just be prepared to fight the Olimar, although once he is offstage, the Link can edgeguard Olimar quite effectively.
Squirtle: Link has trouble vs an airborne Squirtle, but Wolf should be able to hold him off in general with bairs. If the Squirtle is wandering around on the ground, the Link player should have the advantage in general.

People should realize that D3 isn't that big of a threat vs. Wolf in teams...D3 can't camp him so approaching isn't a problem...The CG is almost nonexistent and your partner can help you if your about to be gimped. His poor aerial movement makes him a target...When you're talking about doubles don't bring in the assumption that singles matchup ratios hold true.

So, we have Bowser and Wolf, both of whom are easily gimpable? Would we say that they should stick together, or close rather than far away? It would be useless if they were divided and gimped.

Would Bowser's Neutral B set up for Wolf's spike, say the other opponent was incapacitated or such?

@Rvkevin
Which is why the thread is at least somewhat important for tourney doubles. It completely changes the match-ups. While the MUs do change, it doesn't mean that automatically your problems go away. CGs may be useless, but there are bound to be other problems that your character may have a problem with.

@Anonano
I think you've made it a little more complex, but I like that. We have to think about how the team fairs (lol) against certain characters or teams, which can make or break a team.


There was so much text I wasn't sure what to say. >_<

Asaph said:

@Rvkevin
Which is why the thread is at least somewhat important for tourney doubles. It completely changes the match-ups. While the MUs do change, it doesn't mean that automatically your problems go away. CGs may be useless, but there are bound to be other problems that your character may have a problem with.

Click to expand...

Asaph: That was my response to "Problematic Match-ups: Both characters have trouble against the demonic D3, most especially Wolf," which I think is taken out of a singles context instead of a doubles and I merely said that the matchup ratios don't transfer over...

Actually I think most of Wolf's problems do go away...D3 gets his advantage from CGing to the edge into edge guarding where Wolf is weak; the CG deals a lot of damage and possibly leads to a gimp, this isn't possible in teams if you are on the inside of D3 since the other action prevents you from being CGed and getting offstage. Although DDD's Bair is beastly against Wolf, you should be able to get around it and is in no way a huge threat since it leaves D3 pretty open to your partner...MK is probably the worst matchup Wolf has in teams...IDK, I'll talk to JJ later about it...

Asaph said:

So, we have Bowser and Wolf, both of whom are easily gimpable? Would we say that they should stick together, or close rather than far away? It would be useless if they were divided and gimped.

Click to expand...

Bwser is easily gimpable? This is news to me. I'm not being sarcastic or anything either, my Bowser hardly ever has gotten gimped though, so that's why if he's easy to gimp, I was unaware. I certainly get gimped WAY more with Wolf than with Bowser.

As far as the teams part goes, Bowser seems like he could attract the enemies to him for Wolf to pick at from the outside. Bowser was my teams character for a while, and he certainly can take hits. Since I've never done a Wolf and Bowser team, I can't give all that much imput though, except that Wolf's Dthrow to Bowser's Fsmash could quite possibly be a deadly combination. I personally see Wolf as being the one who would want to avoid hits rather than the one who rushes in front, though I could be wrong.

rvkevin said:

Asaph: That was my response to "Problematic Match-ups: Both characters have trouble against the demonic D3, most especially Wolf," which I think is taken out of a singles context instead of a doubles and I merely said that the matchup ratios don't transfer over...

Actually I think most of Wolf's problems do go away...D3 gets his advantage from CGing to the edge into edge guarding where Wolf is weak; the CG deals a lot of damage and possibly leads to a gimp, this isn't possible in teams if you are on the inside of D3 since the other action prevents you from being CGed and getting offstage. Although DDD's Bair is beastly against Wolf, you should be able to get around it and is in no way a huge threat since it leaves D3 pretty open to your partner...MK is probably the worst matchup Wolf has in teams...IDK, I'll talk to JJ later about it...

Click to expand...

Ah, I see.

Do you think that a very aggressive approach would work, like, say, hounding on one opponent at a time or something? Obviously, this allows the other to attack, and we wouldn't abuse this tactic, but maybe a very ferocious attack may work with a Bowser/Wolf team?

The way you make it sound, or, at least, a way you could look at it, is that Bowser or Wolf could be playing one opponent, and in an instant, hound on one opponent. This might come off as surpising to the opponent and pressure them. Bowser has some strength to him, and it would be advantageous to us if we caught the enemy off-guard.

KRDsonic said:

Bwser is easily gimpable? This is news to me. I'm not being sarcastic or anything either, my Bowser hardly ever has gotten gimped though, so that's why if he's easy to gimp, I was unaware. I certainly get gimped WAY more with Wolf than with Bowser.

As far as the teams part goes, Bowser seems like he could attract the enemies to him for Wolf to pick at from the outside. Bowser was my teams character for a while, and he certainly can take hits. Since I've never done a Wolf and Bowser team, I can't give all that much imput though, except that Wolf's Dthrow to Bowser's Fsmash could quite possibly be a deadly combination. I personally see Wolf as being the one who would want to avoid hits rather than the one who rushes in front, though I could be wrong.

Click to expand...

That's a good strategy. Wolf could definitely pick from the outside. It makes sense. And as for the combo, of course. I do the same thing with Gstainc's Peach.

As far as Bowser goes with getting gimped, I wouldn't know first-hand. I can assume though. UpB doesn't do much going up, and if you can get him down there, he's at a bad position. I know my Wolf well, and I can say that a reflector, some jabs and a dsmash can definitely put him there. I'm not saying there's nothing Bowser can do, but seeing as how he doesn't have an amazing aerial game (as far as coming back goes) I can't see him getting back up. Am I wrong?


Oh, and, does anyone have any better ideas for the three topics under each character? "The MUs they cover, Strategies, Combos." Is there more we can add to that or replace?

I've played doubles against really good D3 players as Link several times, and once as Wolf.

Believe me, the CG issue does not vanish in any sense of the word. Your only salvation is your teammate.

you need characters who can work off your down and forward throws/ all i got to say


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQILD4vDB_Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40YWV8C8yLM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgkANTHeHOw

just cause

JimboCav09 said:

you need characters who can work off your down and forward throws/ all i got to say


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQILD4vDB_Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40YWV8C8yLM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgkANTHeHOw

just cause

Click to expand...

I'm gonna have to agree on that, Wolfs Down grab is a lifesaver, and can open up the gates to **** combos.

I'll refer to this when Peach is to be dicussed

lol @Jcav
Thanks for that. To sum that up and what Gstainc said, Dthrow is ****.

@Anonano
I can't exactly see that. Granted, it's not impossible, but would your teammate really be that incapable of helping you get out of a CG across the entire stage? Obviously, you might get CGed two times and thrown offstage, but I wouldn't count something like that. Something like a slow Falco CG would not normally be a problem, unless your teammate was completely witless, already beaten or in an infinite, which is generally banned. I couldn't see a DDD CGing a teammate across the stage without someone helping. The other player would have to be garbage against their opponent. Can you emphasize or give me a situation.

Heheh, why should I be giving a situation? The CG is normally in effect on both characters, and it is guaranteed that your partner will somehow be engaged with the other opponent. Give me a situation where D3 is NOT going to be able to get in a good CG on Wolf or Link.

Anonano said:

Heheh, why should I be giving a situation? The CG is normally in effect on both characters, and it is guaranteed that your partner will somehow be engaged with the other opponent. Give me a situation where D3 is NOT going to be able to get in a good CG on Wolf or Link.

Click to expand...

Stay on the inside of DDD

D=D3 W=Wolf x=Other players

__D_W___x_x__

Even if D3 does grab you, he can either Bthrow which hurts, but is no where near the normal +40% he normally gets via the CG, or he can Dthrow once or twice until he reaches the other players...There is no way he is going to be able to CG untouched past the other players. Even if your partner is engaged, if he lets you get CG'ed past him, and then proceed to watch you get edge guarded, thats a pretty bad partner.

^ agreed
Though even on the outside

W=wolf
D=D3
Par= partner
Opp= D3's partner

(W_D____Par_Opp_)

If your partner isn't responsive enough to do a quick interupt well then I don't know what to say.


(W_D____Opp __Par)

In this we have the outter grounds of the stage. This is only problematic for less mobile characters IMO.


But your if your Par can clear the d3's Partner with a back throw or even run past them they should make it before the edge guard or third grab.Sonic's Spindash, Peach's Glide toss, Snakes DACUS. cover a good amount of ground. interuption SHL's from falco is also a pretty good save without use of crossing the stage.

Anonano said:

Heheh, why should I be giving a situation? The CG is normally in effect on both characters, and it is guaranteed that your partner will somehow be engaged with the other opponent. Give me a situation where D3 is NOT going to be able to get in a good CG on Wolf or Link.

Click to expand...

A situation? Here's one: they're in a team match. A technical CG is possible, one to four at most. But can you honestly give me a video of someone being CGed? And no, no videos of decent players against n00bs. In fact, I've never seen a team match where someone has even tried to get a CG off (this being at high level play, I admit).

Your partner can't be that incapacitated against another opponent. While I won't admit it's impossible, it's unlikely. A CG would only work during certain moments, because your partner can't actually be that tied up in a match the entire time. There are only certain times a CG is viable, and even if both character are being CGed, they would half of the time clash with one another and have to end.

Asaph said:

But can you honestly give me a video of someone being CGed? And no, no videos of decent players against n00bs.

Click to expand...

Does this count?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRD_hVc7ojw

KRDsonic said:

Does this count?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRD_hVc7ojw

Click to expand...

hahaha That was funny.

But are those two opponents actually good?

What we're trying to figure out is whether or not CGs pose a real, consistent threat. It happened that time, but does it happen all the time? Do Bowser and Wolf have to stay together or can they stay apart?

Also remember that the character used was Ice Climbers. They have an in place CG that requires a lot of skill. If it was so easy, Ice Climbers would be winning all the time, and the only reason some players get it is because they're so good. Lain/Meep. In that case, this becomes a problem against individual players. Had that been DDD, things would be different. The CG would have finished quickly or been interrupted.

You also have to remember that the other opponent was incapacitated.

The problem here aren't CGs, as far as I can tell. It's the Ice Climbers and a specific situation. As long as Bowser/Link and Wolf stay in the center and control the stage, CGs should not be a problem.

Well since we're talking about Dedede, what if this is what happens?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT72aa8MX3w

I don't know if that happens often in real matches, but I'm just thinking of if both D3s are on the outside and happen to grab you, then they can chain grab you until they're spaced like that and then infinite you like that.

KRDsonic said:

Well since we're talking about Dedede, what if this is what happens?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT72aa8MX3w

I don't know if that happens often in real matches, but I'm just thinking of if both D3s are on the outside and happen to grab you, then they can chain grab you until they're spaced like that and then infinite you like that.

Click to expand...

lol

Well, you're looking at something rare, I would assume. The high players are good, but it's not like this kind of stuff happens all the time. Most of the time, they just play matches with gay spacing.

I don't know how simple it really is, but if it were, I'd say "just don't get in that position." I can't imagine that happening a lot. I mean, they're in perfect positions with their opponents perfectly in place. How often does that happen? And again, how good are the opponents?

Side note: You also have to remember that, on top of being rare, this will work only for partners of Wolf that can be CGed. This doesn't even apply to other characters that can't be CGed.

Is that sound logic?

I wasn't posting those to say that they happen often, I'm mostly just saying keep in mind that it can happen so you and your partner don't both end up losing a life :/ Same applies to ROB when fighting Falcon if they don't want to get infinited, even though it's hard to set up. You just have to keep certain things in mind, IMO.

KRDsonic said:

I wasn't posting those to say that they happen often, I'm mostly just saying keep in mind that it can happen so you and your partner don't both end up losing a life :/ Same applies to ROB when fighting Falcon if they don't want to get infinited, even though it's hard to set up. You just have to keep certain things in mind, IMO.

Click to expand...

I was just arguing for different cases so I wouldn't have to again.

So... the bolded.

Asaph, Bowser and Wolf should def stay together. Like I said before, neither chars are good at rushing over to the other side of the stage and helping their partner, so staying together is safer.

About the CGs. The d-throw is dangerous for any char that cna be CGd. I'd worry more about the combo's out of that d-throw.

Alright, anyone have anything else they would just love to say?

What moves are worth using to combo?

Wolf vthrow. Bowser B. Is it possible to interrupt Bowser's >B while it's coming down and hit the opponent with a fair or bair?

Just hit in the hitstun. No need to interrupt the move. Bowsers neutral B is also a good move.

Although it desn't pertain to Wolf and Bowser combo, I just wanted to mention this before I forget. Dthrow > Ivysaur's Bulletseed > Bair sounds like it'd be a good combo (I'm assuming it'd work at least, I did a D3 and PT combo in friendlies before and at high damage, Dthrow > Bullet seed > Fsmash worked well, I'm assuming Wolf should be able to do the same thing)

Alright, guys, I drew together a summary that I think is fitting for a first go. If you have any comments or wish to add anything else, please do. Also, look for spelling errors and the such, as I am a freak about perfection.

If that is all well and good, please tell me if you think Bowser is an awful asset to Wolf, a good one or just plain neutral. Note that most matches are probably going to be neutral. An awful asset usually means that between the two characters, there's about nothing they can do except some combinations using Wolf's down-throw.

The explanation is pretty good so far, but maybe you should take the little bit about dthrow out and post it outside of character specific sections, make a general note about how useful it is for team combos and just list the convenience of dthrow combos with each character. We should also mention stages, if we can think of any. Personally, Wolf/Bowser would do well on a big place like FD, where Bowser can stay in the middle and Wolf has plenty of room to move around Bowser and do what needs to be done.

I would think that the second role would be more fitting. Bowser is imo far better at tanking than Wolf, and should remain at the center of the stage, acting as a fortress (no pun intended, I swear) to stop one of your opponents. Wolf has great aerial mobility, so while Bowser stands his ground (seperating the two opponents), Wolf can jump back and forth to cover whichever one Bowser isn't able to deal with at the moment. Either way though, both should try to stay towards the inside of the stage and fairly close to eachother.

Bowser has upB OoS (***** face) and solid range, so he'll be able to hold his ground well and keep an opponent at bay, in theory. Speaking of his upB, it launches opponents vertically, so if you're closeby you have a great juggling opportunity after Bowser takes defensive action (same can somewhat be said for sideB). Bowser's dthrow also has a fairly convenient trajectory for followups, so maybe that can also work for "team combos". Wolf should just be bairing like crazy to keep one of the opponents from reaching Bowser >_>

Crappy graph time! B=Bowser, W=Wolf, o=opponents

_______o_______B____W___o______

Yeah, I'll stop repeating myself now, it's starting to feel like I'm going in circles. I don't see many places besides FD where this would be particularly viable though. I'd put Bowser as neutral though, he'd work great on FD as I said, but on smaller stages this strategy will be a lot tougher to keep up.

Would you say small stages are bad? I think it would be dangerous for Wolf if a large, dragon-turtle was thundering around.

I'm loyal to this thread, but I feel like I might die with constantly updating a single character too much. It's in my nature to be all perfect, so I have to keep changing the flow of each passage and make sure it's fluent. xD...

EDIT:

I was going to do the general info thing, but at the time I felt like introducing the concepts with the first pair of chars. I think I'll make something like that anyway.

I think I'll make an example out of Bowser's down-throw, rather than center around it. Basic concept, [highlight]watch your partners moves, so you can follow up[/highlight[. Wolf's down-throw works well because there's a sufficient amount of start-up to allow you to follow up.

I'd say that small stages are bad, because it's easier for your opponent to get you to the ledge, where both characters are not as strong. Also (imo), Wolf benefits from having lots of space on stage, more room to space bair. I might be a bit biast though, since FD is my preferred stage for teams with Wolf >_>

Same here, I prefer FD for teams, because it's bigger. I don't like teams on small stages. It's cramped and impossible to do anything right.



Guys, we need to move onto Captain Falcon, so if that's all you have for Bowser, thank you.

Yeah, I double posted. Shoot me.

I'm revonating the thread. From now on, I'm not going to list nice little summaries for each character, I'm going to make a database of discussions in this thread on specific topics we discuss. I think it'll be less of a pain for me, who gets extremely exhausted from editing, and it'll be more free and whatever for everyone discussing in it. Be editing it sometime tonight.

Alright guys I am actually posting something! Anyway I have a question on Wolf in doubles matches. In my state there is a tournament with 2v2 matches and I need to know what the best strategies for team play is. Like should I forget blaster or should I play more aggressive, you know things like that. If it helps I am pairing with a Lucas/Wario player, which character is better to pair with, does Wolf have combos with either one, and how best should I approach team work strategies with either character?

I know we're trying to go in order here, but I would really like to hear about how well Wolf does with PKMN Trainer and Lucario