Wolfs viability

-Mars- · Aug 6, 2009

How are Wolf mains feeling about Wolf's current potential as a standalone character? Is he a character that can compete with the cast at a high level without the use of a secondary or does he need to be played alongside another character?

The thing that pisses me off about Wolf is that he has so many great things going for him......but then it comes down to his fall speed just ****** him.

He's one of those characters where it appears that he has all of the tools to compete at a high level. He has moves safe on block, great camping game, great KO options, range..........but the game mechanics hold him back.

The two hard counters in DDD and Wario are primarily what I wanted to ask you guys about....are they THAT bad that you need a secondary for them and do you guys feel that the hard counters are what makes Wolf underplayed in the Brawl community?

~ Gheb ~ · Aug 6, 2009

Right now Wolf isn't viable because of D3/Wario/Pikachu CG shenanigans. However, even if they didn't exist we wouldn't know about wolfs viability because - imo - nobody plays him as good as it gets (like M2K plays MK or Ally plays Snake). Maybe he will be able to beat good D3s some day just like Warios found out how to do it. Wolf has decent tools to avoid grabs and he has overall lots of good things about him so it's not impossible for him to become viable in the future - it's not very likely though.

"do you guys feel that the hard counters are what makes Wolf underplayed in the Brawl community?"

All characters in brawl except MK are underrepresented and thus underrated. I blame the whole "wahhh I can't beat MK ban him QQ" - scrubbyness.
Seriously: Who is NOT underrepresented except MK? Considering how broken Snake is it's actually sad that there aren't many GOOD Snake players. 2 top Falcos, 2 ICs , 1 top Wario and 1 and a half top Diddy - that's nothing compared to the amount of good MK players. It's only natural for people to underrate all the other characters. Brawl is potentially a very balanced game imo and if more people would play characters that are actually good (except MK) it would be obvious. But right now everybody just starts playing MK because they think it's a free win for them.

tl;dr it's not the counters that make wolf underrated/underrepresented but the attitude of the community towards the game.

KRDsonic · Aug 6, 2009

Everyone I know that has used Wolf at some point and has dropped him has dropped him due to his horrible matchup against D3.

I think Wolf could be viable... as long as he has an alt. He seems a lot like Sheik to me, except more consistent matchups, but no transforming if you end up in a bad matchup.

tekkie · Aug 6, 2009

Wolf doesn't have any broken and useful abilities. He'd be a lot higher if he did.

MidnightAsaph · Aug 6, 2009

What Gheb said. We have honestly no idea what Wolf can really do considering how many people use him, and how many people actually come to this board and share their knowledge.

I just know I will always use him, no matter what. And the reason why I have a DDD as a secondary is...because I just want to. Not because I solely have doubt in Wolf.

Ishiey · Aug 6, 2009

Gheb ***** this thread. Up the ***.

I think DeDeDe is certainly manageable for a good wolf. MK is as well (and this is from someone like me, that sucks at the matchup). Wario, I hear that as long as you run away like a ***** till 40% he can't cg you anymore, and besides that it's an all right battle. Pikachu, no idea, but according to Omniswell we get ***** >_>

If our players were better, we'd know for sure. Until then, ~~"wahhh I can't beat MK ban him QQ"~~ wolf is just another underrated character.

Btw, battlefield ***** face.

Xsyven · Aug 6, 2009

Wolf is great, but as everyone's been saying-- he gets countered pretty hard by some of the high tier characters. There's no getting around that, other than by playing smart. And who the hell even knows what that means. I know I don't.

ArcPoint · Aug 6, 2009

Oh boy...where to start....

Standalone? Not a chance, too much gay crap that happens to him. CGs, Gimps, other tilt locks.

With a secondary? Sure.

Wolf has a ton of good crap going for him, like seriously. I wholeheartedly believe that his Fsmash is absolutely amazing, at least the 10% part is. His boost smash is also pretty good, not amazing like Fsmash though lol. However, Usmash OoS is absolute ****, the horizontal hitbox and that sucker is insane, and it does 18% =) Bair is, of course, amazing. Fair is also amazing, not necessarily as poking move but as a...."Hey, if you're gonna spam big hitboxes, I'll spam a bigger hitbox" kind of move. Shine has a few invincibility frames, Wolf's grab game is great as long as you can read people (But that's a prerequisite to being good, haha), Pummel + Dthrow = ~15% + It's easy to follow up if you guess right, because they're still relatively close to you. Oh yeah, his aerial mobility is amazing, it really is. It makes him that much harder to follow in the air, you really have expanded options with his amazing aerial mobility.

I believe that you can take Wolf to a relatively high level of play without a secondary. Because in reality, DDDs, MKs and Warios simply aren't amazing yet, you can get around it if you're smart enough (We just need a smart player). It's once you start getting to the level Gheb mentioned that it becomes almost impossible to win with Wolf alone. But then again, there honestly aren't that many people at that level of consistency and amazingness haha. It's not easy for anyone with any character to get to that level of play. DDD's like Atomsk are going to be the ones that always grab you, MKs like M2k will be the ones that will always gimp you, Warios like Fiction will be the one to CG you to death, same with Anther.

@Gheb: Underrepresented =/= Underrated. Wario is underrepresented, yet people still acknowledge that he's a good character. He's not underrated. And you're talking about the tip top, absolute highest level of play, of course someone top tier is going to be underrepresented simply because there aren't that many people at that level of play.

Wolf can be good...he just needs someone as smart as everyone at that level of play.

Sesshomuronay · Aug 7, 2009

Wolves like to travel in packs. And wolf in brawl isn't much different. He needs a secondary to help with the bad matchups he has. Wolf can be used at a high level alone but it is probably very difficult seeing as how dedede and pikachu have some pretty annoying stuff they can do to wolf.

Seagull Joe · Aug 7, 2009

honestly i think wolf doesnt have too many horrible matchups. his worst are pika,d3,and mk. If someone just also used like snake, gaw, or mk they'd be fine.

ScubaF_ingSteve · Aug 7, 2009

I TRULY believe wolf has the potential to be a contender in brawl's life span. If you look at his worst match-ups yeah they are DIFFICULT, get over it and learn to play them. That's what really bugs me about players they tried wolf and go "no he sucks vs dedede/pika I'm going to switch to a better character" all characters (minus metaknight) have some ****ty match-ups, but its how we overcome them that makes you a better player and your main a character. I truly believe wolf can be played at a high level, or else I would not be playing with him for over a year and a half now. I think all wolf needs is a good player to pick him up and start playing really well and placing consistently. We need an M2K, an Ally, a lain, an anther, a SK92, a Fiction, we NEED a player like that. We as a community need to focus on that goal, take the best we have and make him better than the rest, even if we can't do anything to his improve wolf's metagame, we train this guy to do it, we also need to all step up to that level and play as hard as we can to get wolf some spotlight. Diddy Kong used to be like us, no one knew about him, they knew he had some tricks and some bad match-ups at the time and overlooked him, until ninjalink beat M2K then we saw a surge of diddys across the country getting better. We truly need a ninjalink.

Eon the Wolf · Aug 7, 2009

I agree with Skater. Truth be told, I don't truly know much about the High level players in just bout any game I try to get into competitively, but from what I've read n seen....Wolf desperately needs to be used by someone who comes out of nowhere and destroys competitions. Sure, it'll give us a ton more LAZOR n Fsmash nubs probably, but it'll also entice much better players to try him out in a truly competitive sense....

Seagull Joe · Aug 7, 2009

Skater Trainer said:
I TRULY believe wolf has the potential to be a contender in brawl's life span. If you look at his worst match-ups yeah they are DIFFICULT, get over it and learn to play them. That's what really bugs me about players they tried wolf and go "no he sucks vs dedede/pika I'm going to switch to a better character" all characters (minus metaknight) have some ****ty match-ups, but its how we overcome them that makes you a better player and your main a character. I truly believe wolf can be played at a high level, or else I would not be playing with him for over a year and a half now. I think all wolf needs is a good player to pick him up and start playing really well and placing consistently. We need an M2K, an Ally, a lain, an anther, a SK92, a Fiction, we NEED a player like that. We as a community need to focus on that goal, take the best we have and make him better than the rest, even if we can't do anything to his improve wolf's metagame, we train this guy to do it, we also need to all step up to that level and play as hard as we can to get wolf some spotlight. Diddy Kong used to be like us, no one knew about him, they knew he had some tricks and some bad match-ups at the time and overlooked him, until ninjalink beat M2K then we saw a surge of diddys across the country getting better. We truly need a ninjalink.

Our best wolf currently is probably Zen or JJ wolf. And pika and d3 are pretty awful. D3 can ledge infinite wolf. Pika can buffer cg him to god knows what percents. falco can cg spike him. mk is mk. many reasons people dont stay with wolf or think he is a nub character

Yoshara · Aug 7, 2009

turkeywonder said:
Our best wolf currently is probably Zen or JJ wolf. And pika and d3 are pretty awful. D3 can ledge infinite wolf. Pika can buffer cg him to god knows what percents. falco can cg spike him. mk is mk. many reasons people dont stay with wolf or think he is a nub character

From what I remember, Wolf can shine out of pika's CG around 50%.

P.S. Ledge infinite?

-Jumpman- · Aug 7, 2009

This weekend the first Europe international tourney will be held, there will be a lot of Wolf vids if he places well.

soFRESH&soSHEIK · Aug 7, 2009

aside from my username and main, wolf is def one of my favs. to be honest wolf be my secondary to sheik. wolf can def. standalone imo he is better than fox and falco. truth, he is at first weird to play , which for the most part turns ppl off to him. but for realize the guys best offense is playin middle stage d,ppl just need to learn his spacing.

KRDsonic · Aug 7, 2009

Skater Trainer said:
If you look at his worst match-ups yeah they are DIFFICULT, get over it and learn to play them.

As nice as it sounds to say that generally... go and fight a Dedede that's also learned to fight Wolf, that isn't a terrible D3. Opponents have the option of learning a matchup too...

Ishiey · Aug 7, 2009

I've played Atomsk's DeDeDe several times (got *****), and I can say that on battlefield and YI, the matchup is definitely winnable (calls for playing gay though)

ScubaF_ingSteve · Aug 7, 2009

KRDsonic said:
As nice as it sounds to say that generally... go and fight a Dedede that's also learned to fight Wolf, that isn't a terrible D3. Opponents have the option of learning a matchup too...

Think about it like Marth vs Ice Climbers, its said to be in marth's advantage, but marth is one of the easiest characters to infinite with Ice Cllimbers. Then why is the match-up in marth's favor? Because if he spaces well enough, he will win. Its almost the same with D3 vs wolf.

turkeywonder said:
Our best wolf currently is probably Zen or JJ wolf. And pika and d3 are pretty awful. D3 can ledge infinite wolf. Pika can buffer cg him to god knows what percents. falco can cg spike him. mk is mk. many reasons people dont stay with wolf or think he is a nub character

Wolf can shine out of pika's buffer chain grab at roughly 50%

D3's ledge infinite timing is really strict and can be hard to do until death

Space falco like metaknights, get hit with lasers until your % past CG --> Spike, m2k has said this is the best way to deal with falco vs mk, apply it to wolf who also has a reflector and a projectile but less jumps.

Metaknight you have to really camp and bait, you have a projectile, mk has to come to you, try to get to him when he is approaching. Tornado you hit from the top with b-air and f-air works well in the match-up. CONTROL MIDDLE STAGE AND NEVER GO TO THE LEDGE UNLESS YOUR 101% SURE YOU HAVE THE KILL.

No match-up in this game is completely un-winnable, it can be done, you just have to try hard enough and play gay enough =p

castorpollux · Aug 7, 2009

Wolfs need to bair dance more

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXUcOei3FUM

KRDsonic · Aug 7, 2009

Skater Trainer said:
Think about it like Marth vs Ice Climbers, its said to be in marth's advantage, but marth is one of the easiest characters to infinite with Ice Cllimbers. Then why is the match-up in marth's favor? Because if he spaces well enough, he will win. Its almost the same with D3 vs wolf.

Ease of chain grab has nothing to do with Ice Climbers' matchups... Marth isn't all that easy to grab and his tippers seperate them, those are main reasons he has the advantage. What you said had nothing to do with my arguement at all.

I'll also go ahead and say that which characters are and aren't easy to chain grab is a matter of oppinion. In my oppinion, Diddy is WAY easier to chain grab than Marth. Why? Because I have more experience with chain grabbing Diddy. It's just another experience thing.

If both players know the matchup well and are at the same skill level, but the matchup is a 70:30, the person on the 70 side will win. Your assumption however assumes that Wolf players can learn to fight Dededes and get better at the matchup, but that Dededes cannot. Sorry, but that is far from true.

Edit: Oh yeah, it was a bad idea to try to pick an example from a matchup I have a ton of experience with that you have most-likely none with.

Yoshara · Aug 7, 2009

But match-ups aren't set in stone, they can change alot over time. A perfect example of that would be Wolf v Falco, which was originally 30:70, but now it is 45:55.

KRDsonic · Aug 7, 2009

I suppose that's true. I guess for now we'll have to hope that something is discovered against Wolf's bad matchups that can put them more in our favor.

ScubaF_ingSteve · Aug 7, 2009

KRDsonic said:
Ease of chain grab has nothing to do with Ice Climbers' matchups... Marth isn't all that easy to grab and his tippers seperate them, those are main reasons he has the advantage. What you said had nothing to do with my arguement at all.

I'll also go ahead and say that which characters are and aren't easy to chain grab is a matter of oppinion. In my oppinion, Diddy is WAY easier to chain grab than Marth. Why? Because I have more experience with chain grabbing Diddy. It's just another experience thing.

If both players know the matchup well and are at the same skill level, but the matchup is a 70:30, the person on the 70 side will win. Your assumption however assumes that Wolf players can learn to fight Dededes and get better at the matchup, but that Dededes cannot. Sorry, but that is far from true.

Edit: Oh yeah, it was a bad idea to try to pick an example from a matchup I have a ton of experience with that you have most-likely none with.

You missed my point complete, I KNOW that dedede players can get good at the match-up, I'm saying is we can only make the match-up better, match-ups change all the time when a metagame advances.

As for IC, its all preference, my favorite characters to chain grab are falco and metaknight. I also know grabs don't make or break the match-up, but they only help it, which I was implying, however not well =p.

KRDsonic · Aug 7, 2009

Skater Trainer said:
You missed my point complete, I KNOW that dedede players can get good at the match-up, I'm saying is we can only make the match-up better, match-ups change all the time when a metagame advances.

KRDsonic said:
I suppose that's true. I guess for now we'll have to hope that something is discovered against Wolf's bad matchups that can put them more in our favor.

*points to above post*

tekkie · Aug 8, 2009

soFRESH&soSHEIK said:
imo he is better than fox and falco.

wut

castorpollux said:
Wolfs need to bair dance more

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXUcOei3FUM

i will never get sick of that.

Seagull Joe · Aug 8, 2009

Yoshara said:
From what I remember, Wolf can shine out of pika's CG around 50%.

P.S. Ledge infinite?

No he cant escape if the cg is buffered. and most pikas know how to buffer a grab. he can be cg'd till around 200% not 50%. Only 50% if the pika sucks at buffer grabbing which isnt that hard to do.

rvkevin · Aug 8, 2009

Doesn't Anther say Wolf is broken? I don't think you need to worry about Pikachus.

Yoshara · Aug 8, 2009

The Pika I was playing against WAS buffering CG's.

P.S. 200%? From what I recall Shiek unbuffered goes to 60%(?) and buffered goes to 100%, so there is no way that Wolf suffers that much more against buffered CG's.

(edit: I am trying to recall the Pika mains advice, and I think it was either 60% or 80% unbuffered from what he said).

(Edit 2: It might've even been 50% without, 80% with.)

MidnightAsaph · Aug 8, 2009

I could have sworn that Pikachu could only CG to 80%. He had to use downB or something after that.

Rogond09 · Aug 8, 2009

As a Wolf main myself, I can definitely say that he is viable. Although I have yet to go to a tournament, I have several friends who are regulars at them and my Wolf is easily on par if not better than their top-tier mains. The real trick to playing him is to learn proper spacing, learning to use his reflector to your advantage, and learning his tricks.

His FSmash has incredible range and comes out relatively quickly compared to characters like Snake, Falco, and MK. It's a great move for racking up damage, and tends to set up well for another one right after it or a quick laser shot.

His reflector has become a key part of my game now. It is an excellent interrupt, and you can FSmash right out of it. It doesn't slow your fall if you use it in the air, which is nice for interrupting any juggles or other air game shenanigans while still falling to the stage to put your ground game back to work for you.

I'm new to SmashBoards, so I don't know how much everyone knows about Wolf, but an important trick to learn with him is Dash Attack Cancelling. Yes, you read that right. He can mortar slide. It's the same button input as Snake's or Link's (Dash>C Down>Z+Up), and if spaced properly can set up for an easy Star KO. This is a very important trick to learn, if only for the fact that it makes Wolf a bit more aggressive and changes up his approach.

Wolf's air game is fantastic because all of the moves come out pretty quickly and have good range and power (with the exception of his DAir, it's a tad too slow for my taste). Learn to use this to your advantage.

That's about all I've got. If I posted anything anyone has said already, I'm sorry. I didn't read the entire thread. But I hope I've shed some light on this underrated, underrepresented character.

MidnightAsaph · Aug 8, 2009

Rogond09 said:
As a Wolf main myself, I can definitely say that he is viable. Although I have yet to go to a tournament, I have several friends who are regulars at them and my Wolf is easily on par if not better than their top-tier mains. The real trick to playing him is to learn proper spacing, learning to use his reflector to your advantage, and learning his tricks.

His FSmash has incredible range and comes out relatively quickly compared to characters like Snake, Falco, and MK. It's a great move for racking up damage, and tends to set up well for another one right after it or a quick laser shot.

His reflector has become a key part of my game now. It is an excellent interrupt, and you can FSmash right out of it. It doesn't slow your fall if you use it in the air, which is nice for interrupting any juggles or other air game shenanigans while still falling to the stage to put your ground game back to work for you.

I'm new to SmashBoards, so I don't know how much everyone knows about Wolf, but an important trick to learn with him is Dash Attack Cancelling. Yes, you read that right. He can mortar slide. It's the same button input as Snake's or Link's (Dash>C Down>Z+Up), and if spaced properly can set up for an easy Star KO. This is a very important trick to learn, if only for the fact that it makes Wolf a bit more aggressive and changes up his approach.

Wolf's air game is fantastic because all of the moves come out pretty quickly and have good range and power (with the exception of his DAir, it's a tad too slow for my taste). Learn to use this to your advantage.

That's about all I've got. If I posted anything anyone has said already, I'm sorry. I didn't read the entire thread. But I hope I've shed some light on this underrated, underrepresented character.

I might be underestimating you, but you should honestly look through the board before you have your thoughts set.

The mortar slide you mentioned is in fact universally known for all characters as a "boost smash". It's pretty common knowledge here. In fact, there's even more you may not know about Wolf. Take a look through the ultimate sticky thread to make sure.

Welcome to smashboards.

KRDsonic · Aug 8, 2009

Asaph said:
The mortar slide you mentioned is in fact universally known for all characters as a "boost smash".

Actually, it's generally refered to as a DACUS (though I've heard it said before that it's mainly Sheik players that call it that, and Sheik used to be my secondary, so...)

MidnightAsaph · Aug 8, 2009

KRDsonic said:
Actually, it's generally refered to as a DACUS (though I've heard it said before that it's mainly Sheik players that call it that, and Sheik used to be my secondary, so...)

Shh, I'm trying to poison his mind to my liking! It's like pulling people to your side of the force before the others do. O_O Help me.

IMO, Boost smash for the win. I say mortar slide for Snake specifically because his is so ballin' (read: its really big).

Yoshara · Aug 8, 2009

I say DACUS 'cause that makes the most scence to me, plus it makes DACIT more self explanitory.

yummynbeefy · Aug 15, 2009

he really only has d3 and pika to contend with and pika really still isnt all that bad just gotta watch out for the grab and such

you really only need a secondary for d3 if you do that then wolf can compete very well

tekkie · Aug 15, 2009

Rogond09 said:
I can definitely say that he is viable. Although I have yet to go to a tournament

Where are you from? There's a good chance that there are good players somewhere near you that will destroy you.

Vista · Aug 15, 2009

Wolf is alright, nothing special.

ArcPoint · Aug 15, 2009

Lol @ all these people saying he's viable.

choice_brawler · Aug 15, 2009

Grrr I typed this all up once already and then chrome crashed on me.
Anyways.

Wolf is a viable character imo, if you desire to play him as a standalone then you should talk with jj cuz he is the only person that does play him as a standalone. He'd probably be the one with the most insight and knowledge.

In terms of wolf's bad match ups:

-D3 has a ledge infinite and a baby step cg on wolf. However most regions have this banned i believe (mine doenst =/) so that shouldn't really be a problem.

-Pika's buffer cg works on wolf from 0% to 110%. If you shined out of it they messed up or something. I don't think most pikachu players actually know how to buffer cg correctly unlike how someone said, though if you're playing a good pikachu player you should expect it.

-Wario isnt that bad of a match up imo, but then again i haven't played against fiction.

-Falco is not as bad as it seems. CG to spike should not happen unless its FD, and even then you can tech it.

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