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Matchup Thread Export: Marth

UTDZac

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Matchup Thread Export Directory
:metaknight: :snake: :wario: :falco: :diddy: :dedede: :marth: :olimar: :popo: :toonlink:


MARTH



DIFFICULTY: REALLY HARD - 35:65

Quick Tips
  • Down-smash after down-throw? NO (yes only if they used getup attack)
  • Bucket anything? NO
  • If you shield the 4th hit of Marth's dancing blade (SideB) you're guaranteed an fsmash.


Videos


General Matchup
  • Marth plays a very interesting defensive/offensive game vs gw. Capable of punishing poorly spaced aerials, countering, and rushing with good priority, decent ranged attacks make marth very capable of dealing with game and watch's approaches.
  • In most cases, marth can outrange your ranged attacks. Approach moves like the turtle, fair, and even dtilt or key can be countered with them up b'ing out of shield, countering, or using their dtilt spaced well. Always keep in mind that marth is capable of shutting down your approaches and even your defensive tactics if they play right.
  • Marth's kill moves are his smashes and uptilt/upair and can hurt alot when tippered. Because marth's range has been reduced in this game, it has become a lot harder for him to land fsmash kills etc, so he isn't as much of a killing machine as he was in the last game. If the marth player is good at setting up tippers, don't be surprised to be killed around 100%.
  • His recovery is both bad and good at the same time. His up b has a very high amount of priority and invincibility frames that makes it very difficult to punish, however when knocked far away off the stage, i think he dies much more frequently than high tiered characters. Make use of weak fairs and bacon thrown offstage to clutter their recovery path and go for a gimp if possible. Also ff'd nairs can drag them down as well. If you hog them and they do an early up b, up air them when they are above you to keep them in their freefall animation and try to land a free smash.
  • The only way that marth can edgeguard gw is to drop really low off the stage and try to land a fair, which, because gw's up b has a lot of priority, he shouldn't have a hard time dropping a bit lower than marth can go and just up b through him.
  • Marth is one of the better combo'ers we've seen in this matchup thread. Fair chains, tilts, forward b and other moves help him to string together high damage combos.
  • Overall I would agree to liken marth to metaknight in a lot of ways. Range is slightly to be desired, good priority, great speed on moves and movement, etc. He's a very quick character than can put a lot of pressure on gw.


Basic Strategies
  • When approaching marth, make sure that your aerials have their maximum spacing and that you don't leave yourself open afterwards. Against most other characters you have some room to be sloppy because the turtle has a lot of range, a lot more than most characters can handle, however if you space the turtle incorrectly, you'll be eating an up b (tippered most likely) because it has invincibility frames.
  • Because marth has no projectile game, he has no way to force you to approach him, so i wouldn't be surprised if more gw players begin to play more campy against marths, ie forcing them to approach and then punishing based on that. Retreating bairs and dtilts can be extremely difficult for marth to get around, however it isn't impossible.
  • To edgeguard marth, you can try to get a quick fair off on him, but you'll have to do it farther than he can up b to the ledge, as the up b will always go through your fair, so if he's close enough, he'll just up b if he thinks your going to try and intercept him. If not that you can try to grab the ledge to hog, or if he goes above you try to space a ledgehopped up air to push him up off the ground and keep him from landing. He seems to have pretty poor aerial di after the up b so you get a free smash off from this, works very well.
  • Learn to watch for the counter against marth. If you make too much of a pattern with your turtle/fair approaches he'll be able to counter it pretty easily as the moves stay out for a while. Empty short hops work great if you think your falling into a patter and you think your opponent might start countering.
  • Another serious threat to watch out for is the neutral b shield breaker. Against anyone this move can be devastating. Common setups for shield breaks are sh fair to shield break and i've seen combinations of forward b's to shield breaks. These setups aren't the only times that he can do it though, anytime he thinks your shield will stay up he could use it so watch out. Even if he doesn't break your shield, it will still be low allowing for shield pokes.
  • The last big pain in gw's side would b the forward b combo. As far as i know this move comes out in 4 frames, making it one of the faster moves in the game for its damage output. Great out of shield for marth, great to move away from turtles and then move in with a quick sword dance to punish. Be aware of how quick it is. It can also rack up a lot of damage, try to always di away from all of the hits, never in or down as you'll just eat all of the hits.


Stages
  • Imo, all of the stages that have worked in the past should work fine here too. Once again gw has more mobility than marth so stages like rainbow cruise etc will work great.
  • Try to avoid stages that give marth alot of platform use as he is probably better at optimizing platforms than you are. Stages like norfair and lylat cruise should be avoided.


Frame Data
  • Neutral B: 19
  • Side B: 4 then varies by input
  • Up B: 5 (invincibility frames from 1-5)
  • Down B: 4-27
  • Fsmash: 10
  • Dsmash: 6, 21
  • Usmash: 12
  • Ftilt: 7
  • Dtilt: 7
  • Utilt: 6
  • Nair: 6, 15, 17 (behind), 19
  • Fair: 4
  • Bair: 7
  • Uair: 6
  • Dair: 6
  • Jab: 4, 25
  • Dash Attack: N/A
  • Standing Grab: 6
  • Dash Grab: N/A
  • Pivot Grab: N/A
 

Neb

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Response to Lord Chair

Lord Chair said:
Both, G&W's options when actually getting hit. We can safely assume that the majority of the time that would be either Dancing Blade or Fair, Dancing Blade has barely any followups unless Marth would try to cancel it into grab/jab/ftilt/whatever so Fair is obviously the best pressure tool, together with dtilt.

G&W getting hit by a Fair puts him in the air, no doubt, unless you get hit by certain hitboxes which you somehow manage to DI to the stage. G&W is put in a position in which he can technically only airdodge, Fair or Nair.

Airdodge would be the most viable one, but can be baited under all circumstances. FF Fair often takes care of that, though admittedly airdodging immediately beats double Fair.
This is for every characters. If you get hit, you're at a disadvantage. All that differs is the severity of how strongly that character can control, and sustain the advantage. When G&W gets his attacks off, he does more damage and limits more options (slightly) than Marth does him. G&W juggles Marth better, and can pressure him off-stage till where he cannot recover.

Lord Chair said:
1. G&W can punish Marth's aerials with a shield approach.

Those are good punishers, more of them being able to rack up damage. With a well spaced approach however, it leaves G&W with the following:

Fair (only when Marth is advancing, and only if you can predict whether or not he'll go for another Fair)
Bair (same story)

That's it. You could use upB to get out of the situation only to have worse things to deal with, depending on the situation of course, perhaps it'll get you out of there. The danger is that this scenario can't happen too often. Double tippers provide immense shield pressure, and the 3rd or 4th Fair will often shield poke.
Lord Chair said:
2. G&W has the ability to stop Marth's airgame.

He certainly does, Fair has enough range to screw around with Marth's spacing, and Bair (even though good DI allows Marth to punish it even though it hits) outranges Marth's air game entirely. Horizontally that is. I'm not going into this since you are absolutely right.
Bair and fair are great at thwarting his aerials, however, so is dtilt. It actually out-ranges tipper fair/nair (tested frame-by-frame). Likewise, fsmash can punish errors in spacing or timing, being fairly safe on block, and limber, with the ability to pivot in directions to weave in-and-out of range. When the torch is down (hitbox out) it will vanquish dancing blade, while the prolonged hitbox will parry Marth's tilts and smashes. Charging and releasing with subtle variety in timing can also work towards throwing off Marth, and his attempts at countering.

Lord Chair said:
3. It is difficult to attack G&W at a diagonal if he spaces smartly.

Spacing smartly is a difficult thing for G&W to do against Marth. It more of a 'do I fullhop or short hop' since G&W fullhopping beats Marth fullhopping and G&W shorthopping beats Marth shorthopping. However, Marth shorthopping beats G&W fullhopping etc. Fullhops on G&W's side are more easily punished than Fullhops on Marth's side, because G&W has no real diagonal angle to speak of (perhaps upB).
G&W FH > Marth FH - from below
G&W FH < Marth FH - from horizontal
G&W SH > Marth SH
G&W FH < Marth SH​

G&W should only FH if he wants to retreat his aerials more, follow-up an attack, or if Marth full hops and leaves something open. Otherwise he shouldn't take the bait, being limited against Marth's uair, utilt, and usmash. If he has the advantage on these planes (horizontal and below), there is no reason for him to stick his neck out like that.

Lord Chair said:
Marth's startup lag on his aerials is less present than G&W's. Marth's Fair comes out in frame 5 while G&W's Bair and Fair are frame 10. This means that G&W must awesomely space his aerials in order to safely hit Marth. Spacing requires the space to do so, against Marth at least. I recall kaak saying that he finally understood why Marth is such a hard matchup, and it's because G&W usually doesn't need too much stage control to do what he does best, but against Marth he's pretty much forced to fight for it because G&W cannot function against Marth while cornered.

What has this to do with diagonal spacing? Well, in order to prevent Marth from taking G&W from those angles, G&W needs the space to position himself for it. But G&W is in no way capable of getting this space all the time, not only because he isn't really built to do so, but also because of Marth's clear capability of doing so himself.
Being cornered is not complete hell for Game & Watch, the ledge tends to be a great haven for him, cause it weakens the spacing and zoning war in a way. Marth doesn't have many strong options against ledge camping, so if he decides not to challenge him from that position, G&W can get-up and reset the neutral. I do agree he can be harassed by Marth, but in these scenarios, it is better for him to run away.

Lord Chair said:
4. Marth's pressure game isn't very effectibe vs G&W.

That's just plain wrong, Marth's overall game lies in pressuring mostly, and if G&W weren't bothered by it this matchup would be in his favor. Aside of that, I think I have adressed this point fairly well in the other paragraphs, so I'll leave it for what it is.
I definitely worded this wrong. Rather, I believe Marth has a difficult time establishing pressure if G&W can keep him out.

___________________________________



Good idea Zac :)!
 

BlkSheep642

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i had no idea if you block the fourth hit of marth's dancing blade, it's a free fsmash.
and then i saw the video.

n__n i enjoyed reading this and learned a lot from it, now i should start practicing this against marthand see how well i can do.
 

JustKindaBoredUKno

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i had no idea if you block the fourth hit of marth's dancing blade, it's a free fsmash.
and then i saw the video.

n__n i enjoyed reading this and learned a lot from it, now i should start practicing this against marthand see how well i can do.
i've known that for awhile, i didn't know it was so unknown.

i really don't think this is 35:65.
 

Lord Chair

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This is for every characters. If you get hit, you're at a disadvantage. All that differs is the severity of how strongly that character can control, and sustain the advantage. When G&W gets his attacks off, he does more damage and limits more options (slightly) than Marth does him. G&W juggles Marth better, and can pressure him off-stage till where he cannot recover.

Completely agree on this matter, though Marth is very capable of DIing Bair upwards, getting hit by what G&W has does put him in an awkward position.


Bair and fair are great at thwarting his aerials, however, so is dtilt. It actually out-ranges tipper fair/nair (tested frame-by-frame). Likewise, fsmash can punish errors in spacing or timing, being fairly safe on block, and limber, with the ability to pivot in directions to weave in-and-out of range. When the torch is down (hitbox out) it will vanquish dancing blade, while the prolonged hitbox will parry Marth's tilts and smashes. Charging and releasing with subtle variety in timing can also work towards throwing off Marth, and his attempts at countering.

I wouldn't recommend playing like this. G&W's dtilt does indeed outrange Marth's fair horizontally, but a decent Marth player is capable of spacing over it. Random fsmashes, though I see them work all the time, on other characters that is, are not wise moves in this matchup. It's not safe on block, you WILL be eating a Dancing Blade, Marth's dtilt clashes with it as well, only having more range and being faster. Marths don't really counter unless extremely obvious.

G&W FH > Marth FH - from below
G&W FH < Marth FH - from horizontal
G&W SH > Marth SH
G&W FH < Marth SH​
G&W should only FH if he wants to retreat his aerials more, follow-up an attack, or if Marth full hops and leaves something open. Otherwise he shouldn't take the bait, being limited against Marth's uair, utilt, and usmash. If he has the advantage on these planes (horizontal and below), there is no reason for him to stick his neck out like that.

Then what should you do when under siege?

Being cornered is not complete hell for Game & Watch, the ledge tends to be a great haven for him, cause it weakens the spacing and zoning war in a way. Marth doesn't have many strong options against ledge camping, so if he decides not to challenge him from that position, G&W can get-up and reset the neutral. I do agree he can be harassed by Marth, but in these scenarios, it is better for him to run away.

Yes, G&W performs fine when on the ledge. He won't die while he's there. But he will eat Fairs, ledge hopping and ledge jumping are both jeopardized by Fair spacing, G&W's ledge attack and roll suck, and aside of offensive returns with upB and aerials, airdodging are the ways to go. Remember, for the sake of the matchup, that you can always bucket reverse to a bair. Which is in some way viable.

I definitely worded this wrong. Rather, I believe Marth has a difficult time establishing pressure if G&W can keep him out.

Oh well I'd say our opinions differ on that point then :)


___________________________________



Good idea Zac :)!


40-60, in favor of Marth. My reasons have been posted all over the boards now :X

edit: Oh I noted the fandom among G&W's in tossing out fairs and yeah it's rather viable against Marth. Just don't make it stale or a good Marth WILL live to 180%.

edit: Why was this matchup rated harder than Snake in the first place?
 

A2ZOMG

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I found Marth harder since he has more direct answers to G&W's stuff, and because baiting him takes quite a bit of thinking.

I find it much harder to land a Smash on Marth too at any rate since juggling him isn't quite as straightforward as it is to juggle Snake.
 

Neb

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I wouldn't recommend playing like this. G&W's dtilt does indeed outrange Marth's fair horizontally, but a decent Marth player is capable of spacing over it. Random fsmashes, though I see them work all the time, on other characters that is, are not wise moves in this matchup. It's not safe on block, you WILL be eating a Dancing Blade, Marth's dtilt clashes with it as well, only having more range and being faster. Marths don't really counter unless extremely obvious.
That's the thing, when Marth adjust his spacing to get over dtilt and clip G&W's face, he puts himself at a bad angle where Game & Watch may punish with upb, his oos game, crossup (airdodge), spotdodge, or even simply walk out of tipper-range and target the moves cooldown. A fair in this scenario would strip Marth of his SJ, and if the two are close-by a ledge, that's one less option for him in an edgeguard, or even a juggle trap.

And by this...

"Charging and releasing with subtle variety in timing can also work towards throwing off Marth, and his attempts at countering." I didn't mean the move counter. Bad choice of words, heheh.

Anyhow, I don't remember saying G&W would be randomly twirling his match this-way-and-that, of course there would be some system in each use. Too, Marth can only strike back with dancing blade if he guards fsmash at grab distance, otherwise its a whiff, leaving him open for another fsmash (or whatever). And if G&W is pivoting it intelligently to tailor his spacing at the flames tip, Marth has to overexert himself to punish cleanly.

Then what should you do when under siege?
Well of course since G&W is a lighter character, Marth's ability to chain attacks would cease early on.

In juggles, G&W can DI toward the ledge where he's fairly safe. If Marth chases, he can change his direction in an instant with an angled upb, or b-reversal chef/judge. He has his airdodge and retreating nair/bair against Marth's uair, along with upb's parachute mechanism, which adds yet another element of movement and evasion.

But in other cases where he feels pressured, upb angled away and canceled into a retreating aerial or SJ will bail him out, with Marth often struggling to chase and punish him before he can recuperate.
 

A2ZOMG

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Against Marth's D-tilt, if you time it right, you can Jab/D-tilt out of shield against it.

Against Dancing Blade...It's actually possible to hit his hand with F-smash or D-smash. Don't try it though. Instead just try to shieldgrab it.
 

Rajam

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Dancing Blade is just hopeless... just DI up and away and escape with up+b as soon as posible

I don't know about shieldgrabbing, DB usually pushes you too far for atempting later the grab
 

A2ZOMG

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You always have enough of a frame advantage to shieldgrab him out of the 3rd hit.

And anyhow, Marth leans in a lot when DBing, so shieldgrabbing him is often easy, as long as you can shield DB in the first place.
 

Neb

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Combating db with fsmash isn't that risky (especially with pivots), the hitbox just needs to be out. You should also shield and spotdodge when being pressured by db, it vastly reduces guard damage while opening some windows for jab, grab, dtilt (sometimes), and of course upb. Oh then theres bair, which outranges dtilt and db. A good maneuver against his dtilt is to shield then retreat a bair.
 

Lord Chair

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Just want to note that even though Marth's dtilt does have slightly more range than G&W's, it is inferior in many ways.

Marth's hurtbox gets extended by his dtilt and has practically no vertical range. Many people note that Marth's dtilt destroys G&W's ground game, and I have to disagree with that. Dtilt > Marth in quite a few situations, and should be incorporated in this match-up.

As usual, it´s also a great asset to your ledge game, beating out many of Marth´s options.
 

Darxmarth23

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whats the safest way to get back on the stage when your playing a marth?
Make sure you cover yourself with your aerials. DI.

Dolphin slash just high enough to miss the ledge if hogged and land as safely as possible. But also be able to grab the edge when it isn't hogged.
 

A2ZOMG

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There isn't any surefire way to get back from the ledge when Marth is guarding it. You can edgecamp forever against him however.

Really, it's about observing what he's trying to do. Ledge standing is the safest option if you think you can avoid getting grabbed and that he won't DB, and it's the best thing you can do if he's spacing F-airs/N-airs. If he D-tilts, ledge jump if used right can get you past it.

High recoveries usually leave you with more options for getting back on stage.
 

A2ZOMG

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Actually getting up from the edge however is difficult against Marth since he has options that are good at covering getups due to his mobility.

Yeah, he can't really deal with edgecamping at least...although from what I've seen, Mikehaze likes to purposefully hog the ledge -> ledgehop aerial.
 

Lord Chair

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For G&W, consider going in aggressively with Fair when coming back from the edge, when properly timed it will beat Marth's Fair and Dtilt, his main options of keeping you away.

The most surefire way to get back is by going high, G&W isn't that juggleable so even though you might eat an Uair, at least you're back on the stage.

Yet I stress Fair or going high, airdodging/ledgeattack/nair won't do it. Remember not to hang on the edge too long or you'll eat a dtilt.
 

Valdens

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Marth CAN punish you if you go low. He can edgehog at the right time then ledgehop an aerial or in some cases get up and upsmash if the up-b gets the weird landing lag it gets when you just barely make it.
 

Neb

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You could always go low, expend a SJ into an uair then time your upb. Or clutter the ledge with chef before recovering.
 

Valdens

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eh.. it's still risky. Low, when it works, can be a lot safer, but Marth (and most other characters) has the tools to punish you, even if it's minimally, if he can edgehog.
 

cemo

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Rather than go for the landing lag, I thought you could drop the 'chute and footstool them for a safer recovery?
I've been out of the metagame for a while :x
 

Mr. Grey

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A friend of mine started using Marth to stop my G&W, I dont have TOO much trouble fighting on the edge, but I do Have trouble stopping his Fair, he keeps spamming this move and the only way I can find around it is to air dodge through it and hope to go from there.

Is there anything I can do in the air to get around his Fair spamming. I can't tell if Bair can go through because of the many times I tried it only went through once. Is there any approach you know that would stop a Marth spamming Fair to push you towards the edge?
 

A2ZOMG

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Powershielding, randomly throwing out F-airs, baiting like a pro, those are basically your strategies against Marth's spacing game. Choose right, and you can punish him severely.
 

Neb

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A friend of mine started using Marth to stop my G&W, I dont have TOO much trouble fighting on the edge, but I do Have trouble stopping his Fair, he keeps spamming this move and the only way I can find around it is to air dodge through it and hope to go from there.

Is there anything I can do in the air to get around his Fair spamming. I can't tell if Bair can go through because of the many times I tried it only went through once. Is there any approach you know that would stop a Marth spamming Fair to push you towards the edge?
You have a couple options when combating his fair...

Dtilt is your best tool on the ground, it'll beat both fair and nair, dealing 9% (damage differs land-to-air).

Bair perfectly spaced will out-range his fair horizontally; the turtle needs to be spaced to where it's beak is pinching Marth's arm, not his body.

Fair is also a great punishing option after baiting/conditioning. You need to space it so that you appear open/in-range, you then weave away from their attack, and then DI back inward and hit them with fair's sourspot (while they experience cooldown or the hitbox moves). Fair is also a great OOS option, especially at high percentages.

■ Against poorly spaced aerials you may use fsmash, the long-lasting hitbox will make it very awkward for Marth to maneuver around, and the tradeoff is often in your favor if the attacks collide. You can keep him guessing by charging.

■ Then you have Upb which will beat anything coming at you from a 35/45 degree angle when timed correctly.​
 

Mr. Grey

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Thanks a lot. The Bair is gonna take some practice cause I kept Fing it up.
But sliding powershield worked a little. Fair was working when I timed it correctly.
D tilt worked when he landed close. Now I feel less pressured when he spams Fair.

I had one more question about this matchup, its about his up B.


If I chase him off the level and throw out an Fair, and he uses up B,

Will we collide? or will he cut throw my Fair entirely?

Sometimes I wind up getting stage spiked when were both low off the edge, and I'm not quite sure how to gimp him properly.

I appreciate the feedback
 

A2ZOMG

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Thanks a lot. The Bair is gonna take some practice cause I kept Fing it up.
But sliding powershield worked a little. Fair was working when I timed it correctly.
D tilt worked when he landed close. Now I feel less pressured when he spams Fair.

I had one more question about this matchup, its about his up B.


If I chase him off the level and throw out an Fair, and he uses up B,

Will we collide? or will he cut throw my Fair entirely?

Sometimes I wind up getting stage spiked when were both low off the edge, and I'm not quite sure how to gimp him properly.

I appreciate the feedback
Use D-air.

Always hits him out of Up-B seriously.

Being unpredictable offstage helps a lot in landing those F-airs offstage....also, spacing reverse aerials can be a good strategy to avoid his Up-B and punish it.
 

cemo

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Marth's UP-B is invincible for a little bit, dunno the frames myself. If he's sweetspotting the ledge the timing to hit him might be a little tricky.
 

UTDZac

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Marth's UP-B is invincible for a little bit, dunno the frames myself. If he's sweetspotting the ledge the timing to hit him might be a little tricky.
The invinc frames for UpB are in the first post:

Frame Data
* Up B: 5 (invincibility frames from 1-5)
 

MagicJosh

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Hartland, WI
Just wanna throw this out there, but I was playing a marth at a tourney and realized how RIDICULOUSY importante it is to mix things up.

Unless he is offstage, DO NOT CHEF. EVER. He is fast enough to get to you before you can hit him with it and it's just asking to get an ***-beating

I never actually had problems landing safe bairs on him, if you play it safe and hit him with a bair and retreat instead of trying to start a combo, you'll be MUCH better off.

Every now in then if your close enough (although the distance is picky) if you're bairing him, try and throw him off by going through him and landing behind him a bit. (even if he's shielding) it threw him off enough that I wasn't punished for it and I was able to get to a better position from it.

When marth is in the air coming at you from around 45 degrees, either bair (carefully) or simply walk. Walking away a bit until they have to land can really help to find an opening for a smash or something fast.

Just for lols, a landing bair (popping him up with the last hit), followed by another bair actually sets him up JUST perfect for a judgement with the second jump. Only if your fast enough though, because even when it hits you end up trading. I actually pulled a 9 off the first time I tried it at a tourney. (epic 2nd stock)

I could say more, but meh, don't really feel like it right now. :)
 

KirbyIRL

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
254
Location
Conway, AR
So what's the dirt on his tippered f-air out of aerial grab release on us? Is it legit? I know bear was landing it (inconsistently) on me when we fought, but I may've just been doing it wrong.
 

Mr. Escalator

G&W Guru
Joined
Apr 11, 2008
Messages
2,103
Location
Hudson, NH
NNID
MrEscalator
I'm almost positive Marth has zero guaranteed things on us out of a grab release. This came up a long time ago, but I'm pretty sure it was debunked.
 

UTDZac

▲▲▲▲▲
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
6,646
Location
Judgment Count: 856
I'm almost positive Marth has zero guaranteed things on us out of a grab release. This came up a long time ago, but I'm pretty sure it was debunked.
Marth has a guaranteed sweetspotted fair out of a grab release on G&W.

I sat down and played mikeHaze in friendlies. I asked him about the grab release, cause I heard it was debunked. He told me that it really does worked, and did it to me multiple times.
 
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