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Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Ness
- Thread starter Kataefi
- Start date
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
I still think this matchup is probably 50-50.
Don't use Din's much at all unless he is recovering. You can gimp him easily just by running into his PK Thunder. Does Din's cancel his PK Thunder if aimed carefully?
Ness' best way to kill us would be his Back Throw. It should be fairly difficult for Ness to get in close enough to do that though, and his other reliable kill moves are pretty slow.
Once in the air I am pretty sure ness has no way to get through upsmash... so juggling him should be easy. Our Dsmash should force him to use his not that great recovery and usually result in his death if you can time Din's right or get out there in time.
Don't use Din's much at all unless he is recovering. You can gimp him easily just by running into his PK Thunder. Does Din's cancel his PK Thunder if aimed carefully?
Ness' best way to kill us would be his Back Throw. It should be fairly difficult for Ness to get in close enough to do that though, and his other reliable kill moves are pretty slow.
Once in the air I am pretty sure ness has no way to get through upsmash... so juggling him should be easy. Our Dsmash should force him to use his not that great recovery and usually result in his death if you can time Din's right or get out there in time.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
It does, but you have to have pretty precise aim or not be too far away.... otherwise it'll probably hit him as well and give him his up b back.
His fair is a ***** even for Zelda. It's soooo disjointed.... I don't know if it outranges fsmash, but it's faster, so expect to be shielding it a lot.
He shouldn't be close enough to be dtilting you, but dtilt > bat is a killer combo if you trip or fail to react in time out of hitstun.
Generally, his kill moves are: fsmash, dair spikes (can be a huge problem if you're stuck in a bad recovery position, so be sure to DI really well in this matchup), uair close-ish to the top, and his KILLER BTHROW (at ~130%, there's no hope for you even with godly DI). ><
His fsmash isn't too fast, but he can set it up with other moves. Dtilt > bat, PK Fire > bat.... too lazy to think of more. x.x He can also tech chase with it for the kill.
PK Fire can set up for grabs as well, so make sure to SDI out of it or use Naryu's to intercept him (I usually alternate between the two to keep him guessing). NL seems to work better against Ness than it does vs. Lucas since it'll trap him long enough for you to punish him.
His aerials > ours in general. Don't let him get underneath you, but that goes for pretty much any character, lol.
PKT1 can gimp you if you're not careful.... at the very least, he can use it to harass you when you're far away, and it can get really annoying. At very high percentages, it can kill you, but that shouldn't be happening unless he completely messed up that stock.
Oh, yeah: I think it's pretty much a dead even matchup.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Thge fact that ness's recovery is so punishable and that he'll have trouble KOing you at a reasonable damage without a grab is really nice here.
I personally find Zelda's a B**** to try to grab unless she's going offensive and you are sheild grabbing her. As a result, I find that Ness neither kills nor wracks damage QUITE as effectively as zelda in this matchup.
I'd say it's the opposite of lucas. Wheras lucas was somehwere between even and the slightest advantage to him, if anyone has the advantage here, it's zelda.
I personally find Zelda's a B**** to try to grab unless she's going offensive and you are sheild grabbing her. As a result, I find that Ness neither kills nor wracks damage QUITE as effectively as zelda in this matchup.
I'd say it's the opposite of lucas. Wheras lucas was somehwere between even and the slightest advantage to him, if anyone has the advantage here, it's zelda.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
True, I forgot about bair; however, most of the Ness players I go against use a lot of bair out of shield, so it's usually too stale to kill until pretty high damage.
Half-Split Soul
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2008
- Messages
- 1,686
It can also kill you sideways if sourspotted. This happens mostly in edgeguard situations.
If you're stuck in his PK fire pillar carefully think before using Nayru's love. If Ness reads that he gets a free baseball bat hit in.
Here's the matchup in a nutshell: he has better aerial game and we have better ground game. Both have extremely gimpable recoveries and good killing options. The result: a near-even matchup.
As for general information, watch out for his PK thunder. If he hits you with the tail of it you'll be in hitstun long enough to usually eat PKT2.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Yes, but don't grab with Zelda. It's not worth it. Make sure you're not in the first half of the move because it carries invincibility. Fsmash it.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Don't just take it though, if Ness is trying to use it to set up for a grab, nayru's will rawk him.
Ness's dair should be MUCH more supdued in this matchup because it pretty handlily loses out to Zelda's Usmash or uair . . . he can only really use it to edgeguard, and zelda should be able to farores before he can use it there a lot.
or LK it for ****s and giggles.
oh, and, if he desides to Dtilt spam you for whatever reason, hammer Dsmash for great justice.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Have you seen the 30+ frames of startup on FW? Half a second is no joke.
But in general, you're right: good DI and being smart about your recovery in general is enough to get around his dair. If you're recovering from down low, though..... there ain't much you can do but hope and pray.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Dont grab with Zelda?
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
That's my point. Not that the dair is WORTHLESS or anything, but Zelda beats it pretty well on the stage. And, off the stage, her recovery is unninterceptible, so she has to be in bad position to get nailed with it.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
That isn't to say, "Don't grab with Zelda."
That's to say, "When you want a counterattack, you can do things to Ness's PKT2. If you are using Zelda, don't grab with Zelda. Fsmash." It's just that much more reliable.
If you shielded a PKT2... you have better options for the most part anyway. Often times, Zelda won't force a ground break because it's easier for Ness to deal with her relatively slow pummel.
0-10% - ftilt -> Usmash
10% - 50% - your most powerful option (bair out of shield, Usmash, maybe even grab for this particular time, whatever)
50% - 70% - Dtilt
70% - 90% - Lightning kick if possible, otherwise dtilt and go from there
90% - 110% - Dsmash if you wanna try to edgeguard, Fsmash/Usmash if you wanna try to kill
110% - onward - Dsmash.
I would only grab his PKT2 early on, and even then that's not always on my mind.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Ah i see? Shield PKT2 pfft i eat those things for breakfast.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
I believe NL said you can jab fair, but idk how effective that is or from where.
probably not, but i'd much rather grab Zelda then bat her unless shes not at kill percents. slow bat is slow, unlike Lucas version, Ness bat is better for damage not killing.
i think it might vary between Ness'. i tend to save bair more for killing, usually OoS, than for damage purposes. and most of the Ness i played saved Bair for killing or baiting.
or SH Dair lol
i think this matchup is pretty even too.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
You can freakin' lightning kick through his fair if he's going towards you (and the hitbox is on top of him rather than in front).
MrEh
Smash Hero
This is completely viable provided we have frame perfect timing. Which we don't.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
in the circumstance Raph described, wouldn't there be more viable options anyway?
MrEh
Smash Hero
Shielding.
Ness has a beastly Fair. Trying to beat that disjoint with Zelda isn't that much of a good idea. Unless you're in a bizarre position where you could Usmash him or something.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Viable or not, I was providing an example to show just how much range it loses, because someone mentioned Jab.
And really, if it's telegraphed, you can easily wait it out and bair it, but that's a different scenario.
EDIT: And either I'm really lucky or it's really just something that happens, but I had someone jump at me multiple times with fair and, during the move, I baired, and nearly all of the time I traded with him (factoring in sourspots and sweetspots, with the only difference being my own accuracy).The only time I didn't trade was when he was too far from me, but again, that could've been my own error.
The main point remains though - if he's moving forward with fair, he loses a lot of range.
And really, if it's telegraphed, you can easily wait it out and bair it, but that's a different scenario.
EDIT: And either I'm really lucky or it's really just something that happens, but I had someone jump at me multiple times with fair and, during the move, I baired, and nearly all of the time I traded with him (factoring in sourspots and sweetspots, with the only difference being my own accuracy).The only time I didn't trade was when he was too far from me, but again, that could've been my own error.
The main point remains though - if he's moving forward with fair, he loses a lot of range.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I'd Utilt in that position . . . better trade
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
never thought of that, i normally just move away (peach Fair tactics) or Usmash him if he was high enough since there is a blind spot underneath it.
yes Kat did, i saw his post.
Ness recovers from more than just below the stage, you know? As someone already mentioned, using Din's Fire would probably not be a good idea since you'd have to be precise on aiming and since PKT doesn't exactly go that far out when attempting to recover. If Ness is above stage level, don't even bother with Din's Fire. We'll absorb it anyway.
Not all his kill moves are slow. He's got enough options to kill Zelda.
Nobody is going to try and attack Zelda from above unless that option is open. I don't understand the rest of what you wrote.
True. That'd be a little to risky to come close to Zelda and attempt to d-tilt her.
You'll want to recover in the most unpredictable way. Like us, we can predict where you'll recover. But if you're recovering from above stage level, you might be able to use your fair out of Forore's Wind. Ness' Bat may be slow, but keep in mind it's quicker than Meta Knight's.
Nayru's Love does work, but we may jump into our own PK Fire to regain health, so watch out for that.
You can try to bait us with your fair/bair, though. Of course it leaves you open, it's still a threatening attack.
That's what I was thinking, too. I do recall doing this match up before.
Actually an attack like bair may trade hits with Zelda's attacks. Her smashes are great, but if that's all she had to do, I don't think she'd have a problem with just about any match up.
Figure a way around it and you won't have that much of a problem. Zelda can rack up a lot of damage, but so can Ness. Sounds like you're jumping into the **** if you're letting that happen.
I want to agree, but can it really? I've had it happen to me more than enough times, but I'd think Ness' fair cuts through it. I'd think that Zelda has to hit below his fair for it to make contact.
I really hate this match up when it's a skilled Ness.
But I love when someone counter picks Ness and they have no idea what they are doing.
I once 3 stocked someone who counter picked my Zelda with Ness.
I took 8% damage.
It was LOL.
But I love when someone counter picks Ness and they have no idea what they are doing.
I once 3 stocked someone who counter picked my Zelda with Ness.
I took 8% damage.
It was LOL.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Why would anyone in their right mind use NESS as a counterpick?
Half-Split Soul
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2008
- Messages
- 1,686
If that someone mains only Ness and used secondary earlier?
Depends on how Ness spaces it. If he just keeps going forward with it you can hit through it with pretty much anything if your timing is right. If he's moving backwards it's notably harder to beat. This is one of the reasons why Ness players usually space themselves at the very max range of the move and/or start retreating with it before touching the ground.
Why would anybody do that?
I can understand if you're far away, but seriously, no point using your PSIM to get close. There are other methods for that. XD
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Yes, Half-Split. If the Ness does anything with it EXCEPT for moving forward with it, it'll handily beat out whatever Zelda can throw at him except Din's. This isn't a very important point, though.
Uh... watch out for PK Thunder. It's good.
Uh... watch out for PK Thunder. It's good.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Then your opponent was a moron.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Agreed.
It's one thing to tempt psi magnet with Din's and have that succede once or twice.
but if it KEPT HAPPENING, your foe is either stubborn, an idiot or both.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
A really good Ness can be ****ing scary. Don't underestimate the little boy. 
I think it's funny, though, that this is one of the few matchups where Zelda does better than Pikachu. She's useful for something. (I also do better vs. Diddy with Zelda, but that's another story......)
I think it's funny, though, that this is one of the few matchups where Zelda does better than Pikachu. She's useful for something. (I also do better vs. Diddy with Zelda, but that's another story......)
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
in which case, both earthbounders would be known more as "lunch" and less as "threats"Well picking up Zelda as a secondary is only supposed to be useful if you main Sheik
Yeah, you didn't mean it like that, I'm sure. 
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
I don't agree with this. Zelda can help a couple of characters bowser and DK come to mind immeditaley. See isn't as bad of a character as you make her out to be.Well picking up Zelda as a secondary is only supposed to be useful if you main Sheik
@kaylo i think that type of logic is poor. just for the simple fact that you're getting away from the character and basing things on player exp. Which can be bias at times.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
qft . . . because I'm too tired to argue the point at any length.Well picking up Zelda as a secondary is only supposed to be useful if you main Sheik