Diddy Kong's Barrels of Matchups~ Character #11~ Marth

Lets all wait for Hanson's big block of TEXT regarding this.

Both Characters Air Game Against Each Other:

With proper spacing, a good Marth can beat any good Diddy in the air. Fair becomes less beastly in this matchup meaning you are going to have to wait it out on the ground a lot. Careful using Fair, it will hit every once in a while but thats it. Use it as a surprise finisher

Both Characters Ground Game Against Each Other:

Diddy wins here for obvious, banana related, reasons.

Moves To Avoid and HOW to avoid them:

Fair, don't rush when facing an aerial Marth wait it out and punish landing. If they are high enough above you (so his fair won't connect you below) Glide toss a banana upwards and u-air/u-tilt.

Diddy's Moves to Utilize In The Matchup:

U-throw. Marth has a horrible zone below him because of how unsafe dair is for him. On the ground, standard banana play will suffice.

Personal Strategies To Help With Matchup:

Stay out of the air with him. That is how he will deal the most damage (aerials)

Overall Character Ratio:

60:40 Diddy's favor. I might be exaggerating it but watever.

Wait until he stops swinging his sword, and then hit him. Patience is key. Being realistic though, a good Marth makes this matchup feel impossible. I'd say 60:40 Marth

Nitrix said:

Wait until he stops swinging his sword, and then hit him. Patience is key. Being realistic though, a good Marth makes this matchup feel impossible. I'd say 60:40 Marth

Click to expand...

Just because you have an amazing signature, I've decided to give my input.

Thunder Of Zeus said:

Both Characters Ground Game Against Each Other:

Diddy has the edge here; he can nanner lock and rack some serious damage if he gets inside of Marth's sword range. However, the tipper is killer for Diddy and there isn't much he can do against a Marth that zones well.​

Click to expand...

This is the only part I don't agree with. Bananas will prevent zoning from Marth. It's just like the falco matchup; you can beat him in every aspect besides spam. A good Diddy will not allow a Marth to get close enough for a tipper.

It's definitely not in our advantage... is it?

Marth's aerial speed combined with fair is what makes him dangerous. Diddy is terribly slow in the air, and i get hit too much whenever i get in the air.

The good thing about this matchup is that Fsmash actually kills relatively early. and side b works pretty well. I only use Side b with bananas in front or behind marth so i don't get punished as much if i do get punished.

GooseMainsDiddy said:

This is the only part I don't agree with. Bananas will prevent zoning from Marth. It's just like the falco matchup; you can beat him in every aspect besides spam. A good Diddy will not allow a Marth to get close enough for a tipper.

Click to expand...

Remember, Marth can catch and use banana's too. In this match-up, proper zoning techniques involve marth fairing late enough so the hitbox BARELY comes out, that way, if you throw the banana, he'll be able to catch it on reaction.

Unless you do something, and then he reacts to what you do.

Having two bananas prevents Marth from doing anything with the first banana. For example, Marth catches the first banana with a fair; my Diddy then glide tosses the second banana towards him (assuming he is close to the ground now), Marth gets hit because he can't do anything but throw/drop the second banana. He gets punished and eats a F-smash/D-smash/fair. Now I think that everybody here agrees that Marth's banana game doesn't even touch Diddy's. This in mind, Marth catching the first banana won't be that much of a success.

Basically what i'm saying is, Marth's air game and ground game is linear to a Diddy because you become a big target for my bananas. If you approach in the air, I wait for an opportunity and take it. If you approach on the ground...well I think you know how that will turn out.

GooseMainsDiddy said:

Having two bananas prevents Marth from doing anything with the first banana. For example, Marth catches the first banana with a fair; my Diddy then glide tosses the second banana towards him (assuming he is close to the ground now), Marth gets hit because he can't do anything but throw/drop the second banana. He gets punished and eats a F-smash/D-smash/fair. Now I think that everybody here agrees that Marth's banana game doesn't even touch Diddy's. This in mind, Marth catching the first banana won't be that much of a success.

Basically what i'm saying is, Marth's air game and ground game is linear to a Diddy because you become a big target for my bananas. If you approach in the air, I wait for an opportunity and take it. If you approach on the ground...well I think you know how that will turn out.

Click to expand...

Marth's got double jump to avoid either the first or second bannana on reaction, and even with the banana he's got some really nice specials to deal with it.


As for banana game, are you sure about that?


Marth has a great glade toss and a ton of low start time moves to use off it, plus a great tech chasing game. Also, if you defend against the banana, dtilt can frame-trap you.

Diddy might be better, but Marth is definitely no slouch with banana's, and having control of them enhances marth's overall game.


Also, isn't diddy vulnerable to getting rested in the jiggs match-up mid-move because his hits don't have QUITE enough hitstun?

ill post about this matchup later but its definitely in marth's favor by alot

The matchup is even, lets wait for hanson.

Everybody else be quiet ^_^. If hanson doesn't pop up soon I can post basically what he is going to say at some point.

lol what count said.

No way it's 6:4 Diddy's favor or 6:4 Marth's favor. It's much closer.

I migh (probably will) edit this post later with specifics.

edit: I will say now that Marth's glide toss is by no means great. Long glide tosses are punishable by reaction (just jump lols, or shield, or backwards GT depending on your spacing). He can still zone with a banana by z-dropping, f-airing, and re-catching the banana with the f-air, using JC throws to some extent, and throwing the banana up and doing whatever, but it's not so much that him and one banana gives trouble for Diddy, it's that Diddy doesn't have both bananas in his control at the time.

HRNUT (Honey Roasted) said:

ill post about this matchup later but its definitely in marth's favor by alot

Click to expand...

Ugh....not this again.

I guess some people will never see the light.

I think it's in marth's favor by 55-45. As much as I like bursting bubbles mikehaze had no idea about the matchup.

I'm going to cover the areas mentioned up top and hopefully it will cover the match-up entirely.

Both Characters Air Game Against Each Other:
Marth's entire game against Diddy Kong is his air game so it's really no surprise that Marth takes the advantage here. Marth's FAir makes it pretty easy for him to both approach us as well as run away from us. The best ways I've found to stop FAir as an approach is to put something in his hands. ADHD told me that I should throw a banana on the 2nd FAir so Marth cannot follow up with another aerial. It gets funnier when Marth catches a peanut.

Marth's neutral air also makes it easy for him to get back on the stage so edge guarding him becomes pretty hard. Then depending on how far away you hit him away from the stage, Marth is a 50-50 person to ledge guard. What I mean is that even if you grab the ledge in hopes that he will Dolphin Slash and die, he almost always has his 2nd jump or he can simply use the first hit of his Dancing Blade to "stop his momentum".

This however does not mean that Diddy loses the air game, Diddy's FAir is also amazing. A lot of Marth's do not expect Diddy to run off the stage so a lot of the time if you manage to FAir a Marth diagonally from the stage he will die regardless of percentage.

Both Characters Ground Game Against Each Other:
Diddy wins, naturally. The only way to win though is with a virtually flawless influx of mix-ups and mind games. Like Gnes says down low, his method to winning is to run away which in all seriousness is right. Diddy has to bait Marth the entire match and with peanuts and bananas it has become pretty easy.

I've learned that glide tossing upward helps a ton (not just against Marth, but I abuse this in this match-up). For some reason glide tossing backward and throwing the banana up to FAir works immensely well and even if the FAir misses, Marth's normal reaction would be to Dancing Blade (if he doesn't retreat) which would only connect with the first hit since the banana will land and trip him giving you a free hit.

Moves To Avoid and HOW to avoid them:
Foward Aerial: I think it's pretty obvious that this is the move Marth will abuse the most and every Diddy should realize that a lot of the percentage he'll take will come from this move alone. The only way to really "avoid the move" is to run away until Marth lands and even then it may be difficult to capitalize since there is not a lot of landing lag after the second hit. Then like I said above, try to get an item in Marth's hands.

Dolphin Slash: I don't know what to say really, it's a hard move to stop, a smart Marth won't miss with it, and I really don't know how to stop it. You just have to know how long to hold your shield up really.

Forward Throw: At 0 Marth can FThrow to a tipped FSmash. Try to rack up as much damage as possible without getting grabbed so he has to resort to aerials and forgets about the grab.

Down Tilt: Marth's down tilt comes out very fast and does about 9 damage on the first hit. I hate when Marth's fast fall a neutral air into Down Tilt into Jab. Its SOOO good.

Diddy's Moves to Utilize In The Matchup:
Glide tossing backward. FAir. Grab. And in all seriousness, Dash and run. Lol.
I would avoid using smash attacks too much since a lot of the time you'll hit Marth with a Glide Toss banana it'll be when he's still airborne so the chances of hitting with that Down Smash go down. I think grabs and FTilt are your best option for punishment.

Personal Strategies To Help With Matchup:
Play gay. Run. Mind games.

Overall Character Ratio:
53-47 Marth's Favor

I think it's either 50-50 or 55-45 Marth, I have a lil trouble with him at times.

I'd say this matchup is pretty even.

It's 55-45 Marth's favor minimum. I'll write my opinion on the matchup later

Man people should be infracted when they say they will update it later, cause 80% of the time, nobody does.

Except for one Marth I play with I'd say this matchup is pretty close to even, but I guess marth at his highest level probably has a slight advantage in the matchup. I've basically just adopted the method of running away and chipping damage against marth and that honestly seems like like the best strategy to me. Avoid spotdodging as much as you would normally do to get an usmash, because dancing blade punishes it hard. If the marth is smart returning from the ledge to the stage is a pain in the ***, because he'll space so he can aerial, fsmash, dtilt/basically use anything he wants against you. Watch out for DB after you wiff grabs also. I feel like I've finally learned this matchup through trial and error. It's bad but not horrendous.

Both Characters Air Game Against Each Other:
I would say marth has much much more options that you in the air, our best air options would probaly be well timed Fairs and sometimes Bairs depending on marth's spacing. Be prepared to feel a wall of pain froms Marths airial game, with mix ups from pretty up all his air attacks apart from Dair, but using spaced Fairs the most.

Marth has to approach you in the MU and he will be doin it from the air.

If you are off stage you are really in trouble, marth has a solid edge guarding game and will rack damage fast or will get a gimp.

Both Characters Ground Game Against Each Other:
Nanas mean we win here

but be wary of side+B (DB) as it comes out fast and can rack up easy damage from mistakes

Moves To Avoid and HOW to avoid them:
Marth has generally a hard time killing diddy imo, cause his smash are unrealiable and he'll be punished when he misses and his airials are predictable. but be aware that up+B (DS) and Utilt can kill you, also if you can try and biat his DS.

Marths will also try and lessen the landing lag of DS by grabbing the ledge so be aware of this and you might get an easy edge hog, and on stages like BF they'll use he platforms so at the least get a Uair on them.

Personal Strategies To Help With Matchup:

when you play this MU i play is safe, and i always have at the least a nana out all the time. (Very important to have your nanas out in this MU, case match ***** you w/o them =x) because of your peanut gun, marth is forced to approach so i like to keep a nana infront of me because,

so he has a harder time trying to attack and sometimes a peanut will hit him into the nana but mainly it is to lower his options. with a nana in front of you means he has to presuambly sapce his longest ranged attack (Fair) and your pretty much konw where his gonna land so you punish him. he might pick up nana with "R/L" so you can also punish him ( but you lose a nana )

if you dont have a nana out you have to some how get marth away from you, grabs or an airial will do the job. (use DTilt to grab, it usally works for me )

well most of this is basic stuff but i hope it helps someone out

I would think this is either even or in marths favor, but only a bit.

Since no one has really taken the initiative to back up their claims except for a few, i guess ill post my thoughts.

Both Characters Air Game Against Each Other:​

Marth does in fact rule the air. This is pretty obvious. Diddy's fastest aerial comes out in 5 frames(his bair) while marth's fastest aerial, his fair comes out in 4. The air is not the place to be in this matchup. The only way for diddy to land a succesful aerial is to anticipate marth's aerial movements. However if he predicts wrong, he immediately becomes disadvantaged. The key for this matchup in diddy's case, stay grounded and below marth. Its where his blind spots are. Retreating fair is godsend for marth. If spaced perfectly, it can't be punished, though personally i haven't seen a marth can do it at that level. Not even Roy_R.

Both Characters Ground Game Against Each Other:​

Here we go. Diddy excels on the ground, but marths no slouch either. Without naners, Marth is literally impossible to outspace. With naners, the situation does a complete 180. All of marth's grounded attacks are punishable by glide toss OoS(shield breaker lol). Basically if marth stays on the ground diddy will **** him. There's no need to go into much detail about this but if u want me to just ask.

Moves To Avoid and HOW to avoid them:​

Fair is the move to be scared of in this matchup. Its just so versatile, comes out fast, great range, personally its gay. However its what makes this matchup. The ability of the diddy player to evade this move is the key element deciding if he will win when playing a marth. To get away, simple run. Yes, that sounds silly, but literally just stay away from him. Its not that hard. But also its funny to note that diddy runs slower than marth. >.>

Diddy's Moves to Utilize In The Matchup:​

Fair is good on prediction of marth trying to take to the air. It should be used sparingly. This matchup is pretty much all about naners. Diddy needs to always have a naner in his hand. Multihit moves aren't good in this matchup considering marth's dolphin slash. Other than that, diddy needs to be super patient, and just wait for openings.

Personal Strategies To Help With Matchup:​

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Yhi5Md0l8

This is pretty much how the matchup will go. I have one where i play much better, but that one mike mostly loses his cool. I play keep away, hit and run, and try to create situations where he has no way out of being punished. Also, i try to keep moving as to not get trapped on one side of the stage.

Overall Character Ratio:​

Considering I've officially at least 2 stocked every marth I've ever played I really do believe this matchup to be at least even. I beat mikehaze and lee martin's marth at HOBO 17. I think it would be a stretch to say its in diddy's favor considering for how long certain people have pushed marth as one of diddy's hardest matchups for their own personal reasons. However, i think it can be safe to say that the matchup is even.

Also regarding the "mikehaze has no experience in the diddy matchup blah blah" He played fliphop for around 5 hours like the second day he was in texas(or something like that) and we played a few sets....very few like 4 or 5. I know flip didn't play all diddy, and that they weren't "serious friendlies" but whatever. However he also played Dekar in grand finals of a Colorado tourney. In comparison the last marth ive played before him was Roy_R at Ozzfest 2. That was like 5-6 months ago. Take from it what u will.

Doc with yet another contribution, I play Marths a lot ( yes good ones ) so heres what I have for you.

Diddys advantages.

- Better grab range than Marth.

- 2 projectiles.

- The ability to camp Marth with no consequence.

- Faster ground mobility than Marth.

- Has an easier time edgeguarding Marth.

- Couple setups to combo Marth.

- Diddy keeps control of the ground most of the time.

Diddys disadvantages.

- If Marth gets his hand on a banana, watchout, thats the main thing to look out for.

- Better ground priority with attacks.

- Better air priority.

- Has an easier time killing Diddy.

- 0 - 6 % Marth can f grab to f smash, good for 24 %.

- Marths forward air alone outprioritizes most of diddys attacks.

- Marth can Dolphin Slash diddy out of glide toss, dash attack, and grab attempt with unstoppable invinceability frames.

- Marth can Dolphin Slash a diddy recovering from below with barrels, and also can edgeguard him with counter.

- Marth outranges Diddy in the air, and on the ground.

- Marth can gimp diddy pretty well.

Though Diddy has many disadvantages, it still stands that diddy can camp Marth, this matchup is 55-45 Marths favor.

Matchup is even.

We can camp Marth can't

simple as that.

I'll write a full review later like everyone else so I can feel cool. :3

Update up top.

Nvm about updating my previous post, I'll just make a new one.

I honestly don't know much about the actual match-up, but I'll just say random things in the match-up to be aware of.

-Being edge-guarded really sucks, and Marth can do it really well. I don't have too much of a problem of recovering around him, but when he decides to prevent me from getting back on-stage, I'm in trouble. Generally, Marth's F-air and N-air and variations of it (falling, rising, double jumped, ran off the ledge, etc.) all stop a lot of Diddy's options, so you have to read/predict what Marth is going to try to punish. He has a good option for whatever you try to do, so pick the one you don't think he's covering.

For example, if your opponent Marth usually SH F-airs or N-airs, try to time a regular get up or roll back onto the stage. However, if you're at 100% or higher (or the Marth has good reaction time) they can do the SH-Fair and still D-tilt/D-smash/F-smash your roll, so watch out.

Recovering from the ledge is pretty difficult. With a banana, this process is much easier, as you can use it to (obviously) throw at Marth. You can try to drop down from the ledge, and popgun reversal banana pluck or wall-jump banana pluck a banana to throw him off.

Be very aware of your positioning (AKA spacing) and don't spot-dodge or roll much. You'll get side-Bd, or D-tilted, or whatever if you do.

OoS Glide tosses or regular OoS tosses are really good in this match-up to punish the slight lag Marth has. If a Marth hits your shield with F-air, you OoS GT back, and he tries to upB or something, you'll be out of range of that (although I'm not sure of the likelyhood of that happening) and you can punish it.

Speaking of his upB, it really sucks. It gets out of basically everything. It can get out of your U-smash (which is pretty good in this match-up otherwise), punish your dash attack, punish your F-smash with good DI, and maybe your D-tilt ( not sure, haven't tested). Luckily, if he whiffs it, it's very punishable; a golden chance to single banana lock.

If the Marth you're facing doesn't know he can SDI out of U-smash, use U-smash, It's really good. Generally, you want to be under Marth and a little bit behind him, so he can only use his laggy D-airs and B-airs, and you can punish those and keep him in the air as long as you can. U-throw also fills this purpose.

Generally, keep him at mid-range. Pressure with peanuts and bananas (ideally keep a banana in your hand at most times to get better OoS options, and keep a 2nd on the field pressuring him), try to bait any form of attack, and quickly punish.

More later, maybe.

I think you summed up the main difficulty of this matchup well in your first point Avarice. Other than recovering from the ledge I think this matchup is very close to even. Marth's will space themselves so you essentially have very limited options from this position, and it is INCREDIBLY frustrating. Flip kick isn't really as safe as it usually is because of Marth's uber range. Mix-up, mix-up, mix-up or get ****ed up.

imo, its prolly 55:45 marth, strictly cause he can bring da gimps to the party.


howevuh, those little bits of lag on the ground have been known to give us diddyssss wet dreams.

oh yeah.

This is theory-craft and I haven't tried this since thinking about it, but what about D-throwing Marth when they'd be sent to the ledge, or just D-throwing them in general?

D-throw forces Marth to have his back towards you, and can only change directions with an attack or aerial that changes directions for him, such as B-air, neutral B, side B, down B, and up B. Neutral, down, and upB aren't that great of safe options when he's in the air, and you'd only have to worry about B-air and sideB, both of which you can punish the ending lag if you have a banana.

It probably won't work much, but it's just a thought. Instead of B-throwing them off-stage, D-throw them off-stage, and it (might be) easier to read them.

AvaricePanda said:

oh yeah.

This is theory-craft and I haven't tried this since thinking about it, but what about D-throwing Marth when they'd be sent to the ledge, or just D-throwing them in general?

D-throw forces Marth to have his back towards you, and can only change directions with an attack or aerial that changes directions for him, such as B-air, neutral B, side B, down B, and up B. Neutral, down, and upB aren't that great of safe options when he's in the air, and you'd only have to worry about B-air and sideB, both of which you can punish the ending lag if you have a banana.

It probably won't work much, but it's just a thought. Instead of B-throwing them off-stage, D-throw them off-stage, and it (might be) easier to read them.

Click to expand...

this is interesting, but they would probably reverse upb back

this could work better on other chars maybe...

Id say 55-45 marth, because he has easier time handling nanas then most of people. Fair zoning + nana catching is jsut too easy for them, so unless they dont know the MU or you enver become predictable you are going to have trouble.

I mean, marth puts you under havy pressure fast with fair/sideb/dtilt, and its really hard to pull out some nanas. I think this one relies on if you can get at least the 2 nanas on field, because only one means he will **** you.

Even tho.... I cp DK in this mu :3

i'll play ADHD in december with my marth and try to have it recoreded, i have a generally good idea about the matchup, its pointless to talk

HRNUT (Honey Roasted) said:

i'll play ADHD in december with my marth and try to have it recoreded, i have a generally good idea about the matchup, its pointless to talk

Click to expand...

I agree...actions speak louder than words.

I beat pierce7d in tournament btw

I bet u did

what is the best stage to ban against marth, 'cause last time i banned rc and then got ***** on brinstar....