More thoughts and attempts on advancing Samus

Kinda as a sequel to my last topic "What I've been doing to advance Samus' metagame" I just wanted to let the Samus board know of some more things I have been testing/attempting/finding out ways to make Samus more of a threat. I really want to see her move up on the tier list, and the only way to do that is to keep fighting and experimenting with her to light breaks through. So here's some of the stuff I've been up to:


1. Check out this topic on Brawl Tactical Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187873
- Test out each advance tech and see what Samus can do with it. Seriously guys I think this is key. If we can find someway to help her out with these techs that have been known forever, then I'm all for it. Really I think this is KEY, we have to tell each other what we find with these techniques. Try them everywhere and see if Samus benefits from them.

Already I've found she does great with the Reverse-Jump cancelled Upsmash. check it out and then try it.


2. Start tilting your fsmashes UP , tilt them down on small chracters- Seriously. After we got data for Samus' KO percentages, it was found that fsmash tilted up does more damage and has significantly higher knockback than just a regular fsmash or it tilted down. This move will kill characters early.

- On a sidenote, start doing slightly-boosted fsmashes (I forget the technical name). By that I mean push the analog stick forward a little then execute a forward smash. Samus will slide a little with the fsmash. You can also do it backwards for spacing.

- Another sidenote (thanks to n00b). As tempting as it is to get that knockback, it's very hard to hit small characters (Kriby, MK, Olimar, Ness) with a fsmash tilted up. Instead tilt it down to give them some lower, horizontal knockback. It won't kill early at all, but might set up gimps and you won't wiff over them.


3. Start using up-smash and u-tilt more.- Up smash doesn't kill very well, but it can do a lot of damage and most opponents aren't going to expect it enough to SDI. You can punish those coming back on the ledge with it, and it juggles heavy characters pretty nicely, not to mention Upsmash fresh w/all hits is a good 18%.

- When on the ledge, recover with an Uair -> hyphen smash/reverse jump-cancelled upsmash. The uair should stun them long enough for you to get at least 3-4 hits off with the usmash. It's VERY good

- U-tilt is a great killing move on airborne opponents and I don't think we use it enough - we just have to be smart. I really think it's key to helping our matchups against the aerial foes we have trouble against (MK, Ness, Kirby). I found a great setup: smash missile -> utilt. It covers all bases. the utilt is kind of hard to predict when the hurtbox hurts too.

I'm also using MBB on the edge -> utilt to edge guard. It's really good. After the opponent starts predicting it switch it up into plasma shots.



4. More air release -> plasma shot
- Samus has trouble killing, but most opponents won't expect a air release -> plasma shot. At high percentages it works on a lot more characters than we think, and even if they could escape it they won't see it coming without a free KO. On Wario start mixing in air release -> utilt. They will DI wrong and die expecting a plasma shot


5. USE Ftilt to punish!- It's faster and has better range than her smashes, it has good knockback at decent percentages. It can be aimed.


6. We need to GIMP more. Samus has enough trouble killing because she's not too good close combat. She doesn't have the moves necessary to kill, and if she does they are not fast enough or disjointed enough to do the job. We gotta follow our opponents off with zair or plasmas or missiles or tether gimps.


7. Found a way to do a few sliding smashes.- Like I said the topic on Brawl Tactical Discussion "Comprehensive guide to AT" is really good. So I started playing around a little with pivots and found this:

a. Run a direction
b. Turn around so that Samus skids
c. Tap the analog stick A LITTLE bit in the direction shes about to start running (opposite to step A). You will see Samus start a half step and slide in that direction
d. Input a command (smashes or dtilts)

RESULT: Samus slides a nice distance (think a hyphen smash) and does an attack.

*If you tap the analog stick too much in part C she will dash. We don't want that. To eliminate the chance of dashing, instead of just tapping the stick in the opposite direction (part C), tap the stick and press A at the same time so that she slides then input a command in part D

Now it's one of the techniques listed in the topic, but I found the most significant boost comes with down tilt. She slides a nice distance and it could catch opponents chasing you by surprise. Any character can do this, but it seems samus gets a really great slide out of it with the dtilt.

You can also use parts a) and b) for tricky ledge guarding:
a) Run to a ledge
b) Hit the analog stick in the opposite direction so samus skids at the edge of the ledge
c) Jump and hit Z for the zair

RESULT: Samus teleports from the stage to the ledge with a tether grab. Awesome.

Go crazy and see if you can find any uses for it. As well as the jump-cancelled reverse upsmash, I love that thing.

LanceStern said:

Kinda as a sequel to my last topic "What I've been doing to advance Samus' metagame" I just wanted to let the Samus board know of some more things I have been testing/attempting/finding out ways to make Samus more of a threat. I really want to see her move up on the tier list, and the only way to do that is to keep fighting and experimenting with her to light breaks through. So here's some of the stuff I've been up to:


1. Check out this topic on Brawl Tactical Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187873
- Test out each advance tech and see what Samus can do with it. Seriously guys I think this is key. If we can find someway to help her out with these techs that have been known forever, then I'm all for it. Really I think this is KEY, we have to tell each other what we find with these techniques. Try them everywhere and see if Samus benefits from them.

Already I've found she does great with the Reverse-Jump cancelled Upsmash. check it out and then try it.


2. Start tilting your fsmashes UP - Seriously. After we got data for Samus' KO percentages, it was found that fsmash tilted up does more damage and has significantly higher knockback than just a regular fsmash or it tilted down. This move will kill characters early.

- On a sidenote, start doing slightly-boosted fsmashes (I forget the technical name). By that I mean push the analog stick forward a little then execute a forward smash. Samus will slide a little with the fsmash. You can also do it backwards for spacing.


3. Start using up-smash and u-tilt more.- Up smash doesn't kill very well, but it can do a lot of damage and most opponents aren't going to expect it enough to SDI. You can punish those coming back on the ledge with it, and it juggles heavy characters pretty nicely, not to mention Upsmash fresh w/all hits is a good 18%.

- When on the ledge, recover with an Uair -> hyphen smash/reverse jump-cancelled upsmash. The uair should stun them long enough for you to get at least 3-4 hits off with the usmash. It's VERY good

- U-tilt is a great killing move on airborne opponents and I don't think we use it enough - we just have to be smart. I really think it's key to helping our matchups against the aerial foes we have trouble against (MK, Ness, Kirby). I found a great setup: smash missile -> utilt. It covers all bases. the utilt is kind of hard to predict when the hurtbox hurts too.

I'm also using MBB on the edge -> utilt to edge guard. It's really good. After the opponent starts predicting it switch it up into plasma shots.



4. More air release -> plasma shot
- Samus has trouble killing, but most opponents won't expect a air release -> plasma shot. At high percentages it works on a lot more characters than we think, and even if they could escape it they won't see it coming without a free KO. On Wario start mixing in air release -> utilt. They will DI wrong and die expecting a plasma shot


5. USE Ftilt to punish!- It's faster and has better range than her smashes, it has good knockback at decent percentages. It can be aimed.


6. We need to GIMP more. Samus has enough trouble killing because she's not too good close combat. She doesn't have the moves necessary to kill, and if she does they are not fast enough or disjointed enough to do the job. We gotta follow our opponents off with zair or plasmas or missiles or tether gimps.


7. Found a way to do a few sliding smashes.- Like I said the topic on Brawl Tactical Discussion "Comprehensive guide to AT" is really good. So I started playing around a little with pivots and found this:

a. Run a direction
b. Turn around so that Samus skids
c. Tap the analog stick A LITTLE bit in the direction shes about to start running (opposite to step A). You will see Samus start a half step and slide in that direction
d. Input a command (smashes or dtilts)

RESULT: Samus slides a nice distance (think a hyphen smash) and does an attack.

*If you tap the analog stick too much she will dash. We don't want that. To eliminate the chance of dashing, instead of just tapping the stick in the direction, tap the stick and press A at the same time

Now it's one of the techniques listed in the topic, but I found the most significant boost comes with down tilt. She slides a nice distance and it could catch opponents chasing you by surprise. Any character can do this, but it seems samus gets a really great slide out of it with the dtilt.

You can also use parts a) and b) for tricky ledge guarding:
a) Run to a ledge
b) Hit the analog stick in the opposite direction so samus skids at the edge of the ledge
c) Jump and hit Z for the zair

RESULT: Samus teleports from the stage to the ledge with a tether grab. Awesome.

Go crazy and see if you can find any uses for it. As well as the jump-cancelled reverse upsmash, I love that thing.

Click to expand...

Nice Guide-ish thing ^_^ It looks helpful to those that aren't as familiar with the game... or Samus. Still nice tho...

Zx

edit: first of all, i'd just like to commend you on your efforts. i used to do this stuff a while ago but then iono i guess i got bitter or cynical w/ samus, got lazy and started to troll. lawl.

My responses..

2: Tilting fsmash up may work for KOing or whatever, but tilting it down is safer on smaller opponents and has an almost horizontal knockback which sets up well for samus's offstage edgeguard game. horizontal and parallel to the stage allows for missiles charge shots and zairs, or even lower on the stage helps for run off nairs, uairs and dairs. I'll get into that later.

As for the hyphen smash, samus can use it not only to gain range but to reset spacing. Here's an example of me using it to punish j4pu's dair approach at my last tournament:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8V2vkGOUKI#t=2m13s

3: I'm not really a fan of utilt, but I sometimes use it to edgeguard, or at least as a threat when I'm edgeguarding to make the opponent think twice about jumping.

As for upsmash, I use it mainly as a dash in on bigger opponents, or after setting up with a canceled smash missile. If they both connect it does about 34%. You might have to spam a few mc smash missiles to see how your opponent reacts from a missile in shield -- they may either roll away, towards you, spot dodge, or take the missile in shield. If they do the latter, dash in and grab or usmash. lastly, usmash can be used out of a zair if dashed, and charged usmash works if you notice your opponent tends to airdodge after down throws (try to condition this habit by threatening uairs after dthrows)

4: air release to plasma shot generally should not work. It's not as simple as releasing and mashing B. Metaknights can double jump air dodge to avoid it. What I would do is short hop the charge shot after the release in case they DI or try to jump to avoid what they would expect to be a grounded CS.

5: yea yea

6: ppl have gotten smarter at brawl and gimping is much much harder to do. remember rohins's How Dair you? back then it was pretty easy for samus to get dairs and her dair was regarded as one of her best KO options, but now it's much harder to pull off. I like to do run off uairs, because even a slight hit of the drill will interrupt an opponent's timing, it might also force an air dodge which can be punished with a nair immediately after the uair. If the whole uair connects, it sends the opponent off at a strange angle, especially if connected with under the stage. I also like to drop down from the ledge with a nair, it's much faster and while not necessarily strong it hits them enough to force a gimp situation.

7: that whole sliding thing... i experimented with it a long *** time ago when I tried to advance samus's metagame, trying to push her into a highly mobilized character using shield dashes, true pivots and pivot slides like that, but its really situational and the setup isnt always worth it.
Successful here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j74doocfV5M#t=3m09s
Punished here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkXrLCKD8Fo#t=2m13s

my own random thought/contribution:

Experiment with empty short hop flip (the sh with DI backwards so she flips) and nair approaches. because nair has a full body hitbox (sex kick) you can maybe delay the nair until after you've crossed up an opponent's shield and then follow up with ftilt grab or what have you. I've also used a sh flip to nair to fastfall on an opponent near the edge to weak nair him off stage to a run off spike.. idk, i like nair more than other ppl haha.nair out of shield might be good too, prob not as good as other's tho.

Noob - ofc you know this but all of samus's aerials OoS are kinda tricky because shield + button = zair.

brawl is sorta too slow to make that kinda technical input mistake?? :\

n00b said:

brawl is sorta too slow to make that kinda technical input mistake?? :\

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If Samus players had technical skill would they be playing Samus? Come on n00b, think buddy!

really usefull stuff and a good read, i do the sliding smash ALOT with mk because its not possible to punish. Havent had a chance to use it as samus yet.

Sweet Polly said:

If Samus players had technical skill would they be playing Samus? Come on n00b, think buddy!

Click to expand...

I fail to see your logic... rohins plays samus..

n00b said:

My responses..

2: Tilting fsmash up may work for KOing or whatever, but tilting it down is safer on smaller opponents and has an almost horizontal knockback which sets up well for samus's offstage edgeguard game. horizontal and parallel to the stage allows for missiles charge shots and zairs, or even lower on the stage helps for run off nairs, uairs and dairs. I'll get into that later.

Click to expand...

I like that suggestion. Kirby/MK/Ness/Olimar have a hard time being hit with fsmash tilted up

As for the hyphen smash, samus can use it not only to gain range but to reset spacing. Here's an example of me using it to punish j4pu's dair approach at my last tournament:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8V2vkGOUKI#t=2m13s

Click to expand...

Cool. Very nice haha.

3: I'm not really a fan of utilt, but I sometimes use it to edgeguard, or at least as a threat when I'm edgeguarding to make the opponent think twice about jumping.

Click to expand...

I like to use it on Pikachu. Knock off the stage then MBB near the ledge. Throw in an utilt to try and catch his agility.

As for upsmash, I use it mainly as a dash in on bigger opponents, or after setting up with a canceled smash missile. If they both connect it does about 34%. You might have to spam a few mc smash missiles to see how your opponent reacts from a missile in shield -- they may either roll away, towards you, spot dodge, or take the missile in shield. If they do the latter, dash in and grab or usmash. lastly, usmash can be used out of a zair if dashed, and charged usmash works if you notice your opponent tends to airdodge after down throws (try to condition this habit by threatening uairs after dthrows)

Click to expand...

I have used zair->usmash which is sexy as well. I love your suggestion on conditioning an air dodge then punish with charged usmash. Brilliant.

4: air release to plasma shot generally should not work. It's not as simple as releasing and mashing B. Metaknights can double jump air dodge to avoid it. What I would do is short hop the charge shot after the release in case they DI or try to jump to avoid what they would expect to be a grounded CS.

Click to expand...

What I'm hoping is you condition them to double jump out of it so much that you can SH plasma shot to surprise them. Others just won't see it coming. You'd get maybe one free KO.

6: ppl have gotten smarter at brawl and gimping is much much harder to do. remember rohins's How Dair you? back then it was pretty easy for samus to get dairs and her dair was regarded as one of her best KO options, but now it's much harder to pull off. I like to do run off uairs, because even a slight hit of the drill will interrupt an opponent's timing, it might also force an air dodge which can be punished with a nair immediately after the uair. If the whole uair connects, it sends the opponent off at a strange angle, especially if connected with under the stage. I also like to drop down from the ledge with a nair, it's much faster and while not necessarily strong it hits them enough to force a gimp situation.

Click to expand...

I am a fan of nairs off stage. I have to start using Uair cause it is fast. It's definitely much harder to gimp though. Most opponents recover high so I can't zair gimp as much as I would like.

7: that whole sliding thing... i experimented with it a long *** time ago when I tried to advance samus's metagame, trying to push her into a highly mobilized character using shield dashes, true pivots and pivot slides like that, but its really situational and the setup isnt always worth it.
Successful here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j74doocfV5M#t=3m09s
Punished here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkXrLCKD8Fo#t=2m13s

Click to expand...

I have seen your work with mobile Samus' shield dashes which was awesome. The pivot slide is very situational so I was hoping maybe someone could find something to do with it. ANYTHING.

Thanks for the response. And yea aerial OoS are just about impossible. You can do it but you have to drop the shield then jump and aerial, you can't just do it OoS like Peach or MK

LanceStern said:

I have seen your work with mobile Samus' shield dashes which was awesome. The pivot slide is very situational so I was hoping maybe someone could find something to do with it. ANYTHING.

Thanks for the response. And yea aerial OoS are just about impossible. You can do it but you have to drop the shield then jump and aerial, you can't just do it OoS like Peach or MK

Click to expand...

For pivot slide I've had most success with fully charged blast. Run as someone and do the sliding reversed chargeblast. It only *works* if someone is being defensive.

Aerials out of shield are hard? Bair, fair, and dair and really easy to buffer since you can just press up+cstick. Uair you can't use that method since it jc upsmashes. As far as letting go of the shield, it just takes a little practice isn't that bad.

What do you use nair out of shield for specifically n00b? Only thing I can think of off hand is when marth tries to double fair my shield at medium + % I just nair between the fairs.

Side note, nair is a decent high % spotdodge punisher since it has a decent lasting hitbox. Not sure people should be approaching much from that angle but it gives you something to do if they have a silly spotdodge habbit.

I struggle doing anything but zair oos because the time for L to depress seems to take longer than the 4 frames it takes to jump. If I press A or the cstick while the shield is depressing, I get a rising SH zair

then you're all n00bs

i'll change my PW so you can post on this account, buncha n00bs

dropping the shield takes too long, either the zair comes out or I get hit/opponent shields my OoS aerial

Concerning the sliding smashes, you can actually do any move out of the slide. This includes f-tilt and u-tilt (although both don't have as large of a slide as d-tilt (but u-tilt has surprisingly good range and a surprise start-up)) all specials, jabs, auto-RAR aerials and regular aerials (although unfortunately, z-air can sometimes not be a good option if you're performing this tech while they're on the ground.)

And...

It only hit me now, but if you combine the two techs, sliding smashes and Raigoth bomb cancel, it sounds like Xyro's bomb tech thingy that was a big fuss weeks ago... the dash cancel slide is about the length of a grab... and can be shorter too if you choose it to be.

The reason he might have not been able to get it to grab length is because inputting the command too early/late will shorten the length of the slide or cancel the slide altogether.

The reason he might have not been able to even get it consistently is because the way he describes it, he's skipping the dash animation altogether, going straight into the slide.

It's fairly easy to do a sliding smash out of a bomb, but if Xyro did (and not trying to hype this, just offering a logical explanation) cancel the dash animation somehow, his tech is viable and simply faster than doing it normally.

If his tech doesn't exist, sliding attacks OoB (out of bomb, get it? XD) are still viable. Just not as fast as Xyro would wish it to be.

I still don't believe it to be true without a video, because I can't see how one would skip the dash animation altogether. BUT... it's believable.

Figured I'd post this here rather than Bomb discussion thread because I don't want to bump that unless something useful with bombs has indeed been found.

Unless people don't know they can slide out and back into a laid bomb and perform any move. Then, yeah.. someone ought to mention that.

(I have replays of this but no recorder. If someone would like me to send them the replay, PM me.)