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Lucario vs. Pit (20) Export

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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Apr 15, 2008
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in my SCIENCE! lab
Pit


Matchup:

55:45

General info:
Alrighty, time to talk about Pit.


What moves or tactics should we watch out for?

Arrows first and foremost. They're fast, annoying and can be aimed many ways. And matches usually start with you as far away from your opponent as possible. Fortunately, we do have many ways of avoiding Pit's arrows.

You can walk and shield/powershield, roll, airdodge, clank with fairs/nairs for when you land, reverse double team, and AS will out prioritize uncharged arrows when fully charged or half charged at high percents. BAS will at least clank with arrows, but Pit can fire his arrows faster, so don't use those.

Also, be careful about rolling too much.

This is just for regular arrows though, Pit still has the ability to loop his arrows and hit us from behind. I often see people posting about how tricks like these are just gimmicks and can't be used in real matches, but don't listen to that. Pit's arrow looping is effective because your job as a player is to keep yourself focused on your opponent. So while you have your eyes glued to Pit, his arrows are free to hit you in your blind spots. And if Pit is spaced properly and you get hit by a looped arrow, he is free to land an aerial on you. Avoid this by learning the timing and use retreating airdodges or shielding depending on where pit is.

Pit can also loop up to four arrows at once, although he doesn't usually get the chance to fire more than 3 in a normal match. Although if he does manage this, you now have multiple arrows to worry about. Pit's arrow rain is beastly when done correctly.

Pit also has the ability to loop his arrows so that they travel parallel to the ground. This means he can run towards you while covered by his arrows. If you don't get out of the way, he gets a free attack/grab on you.

And finally, Pit can and will use multiple arrows when trying to get back to the stage. Expect one arrow from each of his second jumps. If you intend to chase Pit off the stage make sure you aren't too close to him and avoid arrows by going above/below them or fairing them.

One more small note about arrows, if you're trying to approach Pit facing backwards, one hit from his arrows will change your direction which is usually not good.

Onto Pit's fsmash, it has two hits, comes out in frame 5, and doesn't have much ending lag either. If you shield Pit's fsmash you will usually get pushed too far back to attempt a shield grab if you get hit by the second hit. You can grab him after the first hit though.

Downsmash is also pretty fast and powerful. But this smash is easier to punish on block because it has slightly larger ending lag and less shield push.

Another thing to be aware of is his ftilt. It is slower than the fsmash, but has a deceptive amount of range that extends slightly past the sword.

And yeah, Pit's mirror shield comes out fast. It starts reflecting on frame 5 I think, and frames 1-4 give him super armor and will reflect non-projectile attacks including up B attacks. I can't remember if Lucario's up B also gets reflected this way, but I will go test it later. Mirror shield also does act as a shield as well. Attacks that hit the shield will merely push Pit away from you so grab him out of mirror shield instead.

Pit's side B comes out more slowly than down B, but it works great as a shield pressuring tool. If your shield gets caught in side B, your best bet is to roll. I have also shield grabbed Pit out of his side B sometimes, but I'm sure this requires precise timing so don't count on this.

At any rate, if Pit uses his reflectors incorrectly it's usually a free hit for you.

What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?

If a Pit starts gliding toward you on stage, you can anticipate his position and knock him out of the glide with an upsmash. I find upsmash extremely useful against the characters that can glide, too bad it's nearly useless everywhere else.

If you can get him off the stage you suddenly have a huge advantage. Lucario is one of the better gimping characters in the game and Pit is easily gimped (well not really that easily). Fairs do a good job at keeping him off the stage and bairs are pretty good too. If Pit starts shooting arrows haphazardly, you can land a bair. Try not to go above Pit however; 9 times out of 10 his uair will beat our dair because of its speed.

Now Pit's up B, wings of icarus has a bunch of uses. It can basically get him back to the stafe from anywhere. There are a bunch of important things to know about it though.
-Hitting Pit out of WoI makes him lose all his jumps and he cannot use up B again. Pit users will try to avoid letting this happen like they avoid mosquitoes.
-If you hit Pit during the startup of WoI, he does NOT lose his jumps and up B.
-The startup has a windpush effect similar to GaW's uair, although much weaker. It can still be used to push away enemies and projectiles.
-If pit goes through the entire animation of WoI he will go into fall special mode. If he uses an attack before it ends, he is free to do anything afterward aside from jumps and another up B.
-If Pit uses WoI twice in a row with a short amount of time in between (a few seconds I believe), the amount of time he will be able to use WoI will be drastically decreased.
-Pit can touch the ground while in WoI mode and will gain all his jumps and up B as long as he doesn't go into fall special. This means he can chase you pretty far off the map and still make it back to the stage.
-When started in the air, WoI will cause Pit to fall down a bit at first. If close to the bottom blast zone, Pit will die.
-Pit will also gain a momentum boost when activating WoI in the direction that he is already moving in. So if Pit is moving to the right as fast as he can in the air and activates WoI, he will be traveling faster to the right than if he were to have activated WoI while not moving and then moving to the right.

Pit can do many things with WoI. If he's high above you, he can activate WoI and reach the ground pretty fast. He can also imitate a wavedash with his WoI which makes it a pretty good spacing tool.

Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?

His fsmash outranges Pit's smashes. Dair stalling can be used to bait Pit's ground attacks.

And although Pit has very disjointed aerial attacks, they don't protect him very well diagonally-below. This means fairs/uairs are useful against him. And bair usually outranges him.

Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?

Pit has a fast projectile and 2 reflectors. Lucario won't get to use AS often. Pit also beats Lucario in close range pretty easily. Luc never wants to be there ever.

And if Pit is hanging on the ledge, DO NOT GET NEAR HIM. His uair has hit me from below the edge more times than I can count. It hits a lot more horizontally than you would think it would.




What to avoid:
I will do two separate posts on them.
What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Arrows are probably the number one thing that will first come to mind. When the match starts, be prepared for an arrow to the face. Arrows are just good at annoying, good for camping, decent for edgeguarding, and just overall versatile and fast. Note that it can clank/cancel with a lot of Lucario's moves, but arrows are one of the faster projectiles in the game and can be charged. Sadly, some Pits rely on arrows too much for their own good...just go look at the number of ATs for arrows!

-Angel Ring and Mirror Shield: two reflectors! Needless to say, do NOT spam Aura Sphere haphazardly in this match. Getting a AS reflected to the face is not fun and can kill you. BE CONSERVATIVE WITH AS. Alternatively, you can still hit Pit while he is using these moves, but you must learn how:
--For Mirror Shield, you can hit Pit's head and legs, but you have to be super accurate. You can try to time Aura Sphere so that he LANDS on it while using Mirror Shield. Remember, it only protects his immediate front, so his body is still a hurtbox. Also, a grounded one has Super Armor right when Pit takes the shield out, but this rarely happens.
--Same rules essentially apply to Angel Ring, it only protects his immediate front. His body is still a hurtbox. You can hit his head or feet, but you have to be super precise. Also, Angel Ring has slightly more startup lag, I think.
Overall, if they try to reflect a projectile and miss, you can punish them during their cooldown lag.

-Mirror Shield can reflect and turn you around when you connect with any non-projectile move, including fsmash's Aura. I'm not sure if it affects Lucario's recovery. Regardless, be aware of this property.

-Fsmash is one of his main kill moves, and they love to spam it for damage. You can SDI the first hit and avoid the second, but you must have good reaction. Comes out super fast and doesn't have much ending lag.

-Bair is another kill move to watch out. Initial frames are the strong hit, but the later frames are weaker. Think of it as a sexkick.

-His Dtilt can spike, but it's very rare that a Pit will land it. Just know that it can.

-His Utilt comes out super fast.

-He has a glide, so watch out for his glide attack.

-Nair and Uair are multihitting moves and last for a pretty long time. Lucario's dair can challenge his uair, but don't be surprised if he hits you. I'm not sure about Pit's nair vs Lucario's fair. Also, Pit's uair can reach through thin floors near the edge, like PS1, so watch out for this tactic. But if you see a Pit try this, use dair. The result will be a stage spike. :)






How to win:
What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
-Learn to control Aura Spheres. In terms of ground game, Lucario probably wins in this department as long as you keep yourself well spaced. Aerial game, both have pretty good.
-If you're trying to recover, expect LOTS of arrows to be shot at you. Fair can clank/cancel arrows.
-If a Pit is recovering with his UpB, try to hit him out of it. If he doesn't cancel it, it will mean automatic death. But if the Pit is recovering low, expect them to fly under the stage to the other edge, or be risky and try to mindgame you and then go back to the original edge.
-Don't let arrows pressure you. Getting frustrated will not help you.






Helpful tips:
it's a fun note that all of Pit's aerials come with beastly landing lag. Not saying Pit will drive himself into a ditch and spam aerials on descent but keep it in mind that his options are either limited or risky when doing so.
Isn't TL upB more often going to be used as an attack in the air instead of the ground? I could be wrong, but I hear it's much more useful in the air, although situational.
Oh, and most of pit's aerials are actually a bit on the slow side, even bair/uair comes out on frame 9 or more (only nair comes out on frame 4 I believe). We pretty much outspeed him in the air with fair overall, something I stressed the last time we discussed Pit.
It's pretty even though, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was slightly in our favor, 55:45 as far as I'm concerned, but I hate MU numbers.
Every time I've taken a Pit to YI (I don't play Pit too often, but I have) and play smart (space well because fsmash is easy to DI out of if you are too far away when the first hit comes, and bair is telegraphed to an extent) it's ridiculous how long you live on the stage.








Stages:
Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
-The usual Yoshi's to start off, if not then, then anything else would be fine. I would avoid FD if possible. I don't think there are any particularly strong Pit neutrals other than FD.
-Counterpicks...I find Frigate to be okay, but Luigi's is good choice too, I guess. Large stages without any platforms allow unhindered arrows and hit and run tactics. Try to avoid them if you hate arrows. Some Pit players love Norfair because it is big, has lots of edges, and can promote hit and run tactics. Some might try to take you to Rainbow Cruise. PS2 has the ice part which allows Pit to cross along the entire stage with one Angel Ring.
Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?

Final D and Smashville, strike em. They not only make it easier for him to spam arrows but they make it easy for him to glide/WoI under the stage. Especially smashville.

If you can, try to go on Battlefield or Yoshi's. Yoshi's prevents him from going under the stage while also helping your recovery. Pit can still go under the stage in battlefield, but sometimes he can get caught on the wall in the middle. Lylat is so-so against Pit.

As for counterpicks, I like Halberd and Pokemon Stadium here. Halberd gives him little room to move and the walls on the deck make it easy to gimp him if he recovers low. PS keeps changing which usually means he can't camp that well. It also has a wall under the stage that prevents pit from going under (at least I think it was like that).


Disclaimer: This thread is made for the sole purpose of keeping matchup discussing clean and organized. If people wish to discuss a past matchup, they may do so in this thread without cluttering the current discussion.
 

RT

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Quivo's post in Helpful Tips section is about TL. I don't know why you put it there, lolz!
 
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