Mr. Escalator
G&W Guru
Mr. Game and Watch is an extremely good character in Brawl. in fact, it's of my opinion that G&W is among the top 5 best characters in Brawl, though many others disagree with this and instead think G&W is tiered accurately in regards to how good he is, and some think G&W is actually still even worse than shown right now. There's nothing inherently wrong with thinking this, but some of the reasoning as to why G&W isn't as good as other characters like Wario I find to be poor or lacking. The G&W community has to step it up to let people know that our character is better than commonly thought to be, so I want to do my part in dispelling some of the supposed "flaws" G&W has the hold him so far back from being Top 5 material. I'm not a top ranking player like UTD Zac, so this is my main way of spreading the word about G&W; it's up to our high ranking G&W players to bring him back up in rankings while the rest of us do our part to stop G&W from sinking any lower.
Well, given our current representation in tournaments with G&W, our placement is sort of deserved, but he is simply better than that. Lets not get too deep regarding goals and whatnot. I'll just go point by point and address the "issues" G&W suffers from as I don't particularly agree with them, and then I may bring up some more accurate, non-static, flaws we suffer from, such as regional rulesets.
Feedback is welcomed. If you don't agree, feel free to argue, and if you have something to add, speak up. Lets just get our board a touch more active with discussion!
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Point 1: G&W is predictable
This is the biggest reason I hear from all different mains in Brawl as to why G&W isn't as good as he used to be. Early in Brawl, G&W was simply amazing because people couldn't handle the "brickwalls" that G&W threw up by Bairing, and landing smashes seemed so much easier. As people found out the moves that outspaced the Turtle and how to SDI it to make it less potent, and to avoid random smashes, G&W began to appear to most as not nearly as big a threat as he originally posed. The thing is, Game and Watch's moveset is so vast and packed full of amazing options and mixups that predictability is only an issue if you are playing G&W just like you were upon release. Dair, Bair, and his smashes have always been amazingly good, but unlike early in the metagame, you cant just throw those moves out and expect to get away cleanly. Bair in particular is still an amazing aerial; It's one of the longest ranged aerials in the game, coupled with G&W's naturally great aerial movement, has great shield pressure, and has some actual setups. Bair canceling in particular is a great way to abuse your conditioned opponent's reactions to the Turtle for your gain. You can also cancel the aerial midway straight into a new action without creating the landing hitbox. Dair is an unsafe move on most grounded opponents, but there are always situations to use it in. For example, Peach's utilt beats out the Key, but mixing up with slowfalled Dairs beats this particular "counter".
G&W's moves actually have a large amount of depth in them, and knowing each in and out can make you extremely hard to deal with. Your smashes by themselves are among the best in the game, Usmash especially, but the ability to charge them makes them that much more potent and harder to counteract against. They really can't be punished with mixups of charged and uncharged smashes unless you simply miss the opponent, and even then the opponent has to actively avoid you and can be pressured in such a way that they become the predictable ones. Use Nair enough out of a full hop when the opponent comes down on you sets them up into airdodging when you initiate a short hop and chains quite well into your Usmash, for example. Our recovery is also not predictable in the least. Subtle things such as changing the direction we are facing after a bucket break may not be picked up by mains of other characters, but the little things we do are really important to keep us hard to read. UpB is a godsend in Brawl because of the numerous ways to cancel it and the safety recovering from both high and low.
Anyway, Predictability is an issue as any character in the game, and it doesn't seem to actually be a big issue for us. Our mixup game is deep and nuanced, but may not seem to be to most people. Game and Watch may outwardly appear shallow, but this is simply not the case, as most mains can see.
Point 2: G&W is slow
This was brought up in the social thread, and it's been mentioned time and time again regarding our C+C game in general. G&W's moves don't seem as "fast" as many other characters which makes him quite weak when at point blank range. Whether they mean he is slow in regards to his mobility in his approaches or whether they are strictly speaking framewise, they are wrong in both occasions.
I'll be referencing this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244329
In regards to mobility, G&W is above average in all ground related speeds. His walking speed, his dash, and his running are all up there. G&W has no issues with traveling the stage at all. One thing you should note is that G&W's base aerial mobility is extremely poor, while his maximum air speed and his aerial mobility boost while decelerating are amazing. This makes for a unique type of aerial movement that Jigglypuff and he share that makes moving into and out of range quickly with pokes extremely effective. If G&W had a more "typical" movement in air, his aerials would be a lot less glamorous, as he would commit to so much, but ducking in and out with his unique blend of mobility makes his aerials incredibly safe.
I'll be referencing this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189251
Now, if this statement is in regards to the speed of G&W's moves on a frame by frame basis, it's still wrong or at least too vague. First off, G&W's startup time on several of his moves are exceptionally well: His upB's windbox hits on frame 3 and has invincibility on frame 5, despite the frame data thread stating differently (the data on upB was some of the earliest data, don't hate on HotGarbage!). Jab hits on frame 4, standing grab hits on frame 6, as does Dash attack and Dtilt. Also Oil Panic hits on frame 2! Those are all just examples of his exceptionally fast moves. None of his moves are actually really slow at starting up, besides his smashes which have quick charge releases. Startup isn't the only criteria for speed in moves, however. G&W has notably little cooldown on many of his moves, including his smashes, which is another aspect of a character's speed in C+C. His aerials also have little landing lag, with the exception of his Dair. Bair has landing lag, when not canceled during the other hitboxes or canceled before the hitbox, but that is covered by it's landing hitbox. Dtilt is a great example of our close combat game: Hits on frame 6 and it ends on frame 25, and has amazing range.
G&W's speed is not an issue. It's not even below average among the cast. His startup on a few moves is arguably poor, but it's made up by either quick cooldown or quick charge releases (if you are talking about his smashes). G&W is really mobile and framewise is solid. His moves that aren't as fast as we would like are made up by having great aspects like being only punishable on miss or powershield, which is remedied by low cooldown and charge times varying. His C+C isn't his most varied, granted, but his options make it so that it isn't a large detriment to his character as a whole. I would compare G&W to Arakune in Blazblue if anything. His close combat game is solid, but it's mostly supplemental to his ranged game which is simply overwhelming.
Point 3: G&W is light
This point has to be covered as any post describing G&W's weaknesses isn't complete without the complimentary "Lightweight" card. Being tied for second lightest character isn't an issue; there are always two sides to this aspect. Being Lighter means you get out of chaingrabs and followups much sooner than Heavier characters, with the let back that you die sooner to moves. For G&W, this isn't an issue at all because of one amazing find made by user A2ZOMG that is simply game changing. G&W's momentum cancelling via Bucket Breaking allows him to live longer than even heavy weights given the right situations. With proper DI and use of Bucket Breaking G&W is the longest living lightweight. MK can't claim something similar, heh. Bucket Breaking really makes his Light weight less of an issue and more of an advantage, even if you cant BB in every situation, especially when already near the blastzone.
Point 4: G&W has a poor approach game
This is for the most part covered in the first issue, but I suppose there is enough difference between these to cover this somewhat. People complain that G&W's approach is either predictable or stale, but in conjunction with his mixups, this is hardly the case in practice. G&W's approach on purely linear stages does leave some to be desired, but airdodging, fake outs, etc do really make this less of a big deal. Approaching is only necessary if you are down, so don't forget that!
On stages that are more interactive in terms of hazards or platforms, G&W's approach game is incredibly vast. Halberd opens up so many options by having the bottom of the stage pass through and the upper platform being there that G&W's approaching game becomes impressive. G&W's approach is poor on Final Destination, and I'll give all the doom and gloomers that, but stage striking gets rid of this blatantly poor stage in favor for much more interactive neutrals such as Yoshi's Story.
Point 5: G&W lacks a solid projectile game
The logic behind this complaint is that without a typical projectile to pressure the opponent, G&W will always be forced to approach the opponent, and this leads into the aforementioned issue of G&W's "poor" approach game. Chef is definitely better than people like to believe, but it' definitely not an across-stage pressuring tool. However, this doesn't make G&W a poor character in not having a projectile like Falco; pressure to approach G&W can be gained by a percent or stock lead, and this situation is incredibly good for us in general. Not having this when behind isn't an issue in most matchups on most stages because either your approach is varied enough on the stage, or the opposing character doesn't shut down your approach game on linear stages. It becomes in issue for example on Final Destination against Meta Knight, but that's a more extreme example that people seem to fall back to when discussing this being an issue.
G&W has much less issues against projectiles than people like Meta Knight, though neither are particularly weak towards them. G&W doesn't have transcendental priority, which is actually a benefit in breaking non energy projectiles. He cancels arrows and such while Meta Knight is forced into approaching by powershielding the majority of the time. The bucket also curbs the use of energy projectiles. Uair is surprisingly effective against explosives, too. G&W doesn't have issues dealing with projectiles based on his mobility and the properties of his moves, so having a typical projectile isn't an imperative nor would it actually help out in most matchups anyway.
Chef is incredibly useful, and I wouldn't trade it for anything short of a Gyro or Nades. A projectile that hits across the stage mainly would make the MK matchup easier on poor G&W stages like FD.
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I'll add more eventually given feedback and some time to remember other arguments I've heard as to why G&W isn't too great a character. These are just the things I could think off the top of my head. If you have things to add, let me know. If you think my reasoning against these are poor in some way, feel free to share that. I don't mind, this thread is to help generate activity!
As towards the real issues Mr Game and Watch suffers, this should actually be fairly evident if you read through the majority of what I wrote. G&W's number one flaw, which is actually non obvious, is regional stage selections being extremely conservative. As mentioned in the bit on approaching, G&W's worst time when trying to approach is on linear stages. G&W's best time is when fighting a vertical game, so stages that are heavily geared towards horizontal gameplay will make G&W seem poorer than he actually is. Conservative regions, such as those with just 5 stages as starters favor MK, Ice Climbers, Diddy, etc and give G&W a natural disadvantage. When the stage list opens to 7 stages as a starter and you can strike not only just FD/SV and now able to have a more favorable ability to get a better stage for yourself, G&W performs much better. Not only just starters, when G&W is forced into having just a single good counterpick stage, like Norfair, the opponent can easily ban just that and have an easy upper hand on you. When the region's list is more liberal, they end up banning Rainbow Cruise, you still have Norfair, Brinstar, and Green Greens to pick. These regions are what TOs should usually be offering. They give lots of options, which benefits those characters who enjoy the options, such as ourselves. MK is such a "problem" because he thrives in such constrained stage lists. Ice Climbers are also less glamorous when more CPs are opened up. Wario and G&W like options.
The biggest issue G&W has is conservative regions with few starters and few counterpicks. As a character he is amazing, but the settings that most people play in arent optimal.
Anyway, feedback time?
I did this all in one sitting, so don't expect it to be my greatest work or whatever. I just wanted to get something posted.
Well, given our current representation in tournaments with G&W, our placement is sort of deserved, but he is simply better than that. Lets not get too deep regarding goals and whatnot. I'll just go point by point and address the "issues" G&W suffers from as I don't particularly agree with them, and then I may bring up some more accurate, non-static, flaws we suffer from, such as regional rulesets.
Feedback is welcomed. If you don't agree, feel free to argue, and if you have something to add, speak up. Lets just get our board a touch more active with discussion!
---
Point 1: G&W is predictable
This is the biggest reason I hear from all different mains in Brawl as to why G&W isn't as good as he used to be. Early in Brawl, G&W was simply amazing because people couldn't handle the "brickwalls" that G&W threw up by Bairing, and landing smashes seemed so much easier. As people found out the moves that outspaced the Turtle and how to SDI it to make it less potent, and to avoid random smashes, G&W began to appear to most as not nearly as big a threat as he originally posed. The thing is, Game and Watch's moveset is so vast and packed full of amazing options and mixups that predictability is only an issue if you are playing G&W just like you were upon release. Dair, Bair, and his smashes have always been amazingly good, but unlike early in the metagame, you cant just throw those moves out and expect to get away cleanly. Bair in particular is still an amazing aerial; It's one of the longest ranged aerials in the game, coupled with G&W's naturally great aerial movement, has great shield pressure, and has some actual setups. Bair canceling in particular is a great way to abuse your conditioned opponent's reactions to the Turtle for your gain. You can also cancel the aerial midway straight into a new action without creating the landing hitbox. Dair is an unsafe move on most grounded opponents, but there are always situations to use it in. For example, Peach's utilt beats out the Key, but mixing up with slowfalled Dairs beats this particular "counter".
G&W's moves actually have a large amount of depth in them, and knowing each in and out can make you extremely hard to deal with. Your smashes by themselves are among the best in the game, Usmash especially, but the ability to charge them makes them that much more potent and harder to counteract against. They really can't be punished with mixups of charged and uncharged smashes unless you simply miss the opponent, and even then the opponent has to actively avoid you and can be pressured in such a way that they become the predictable ones. Use Nair enough out of a full hop when the opponent comes down on you sets them up into airdodging when you initiate a short hop and chains quite well into your Usmash, for example. Our recovery is also not predictable in the least. Subtle things such as changing the direction we are facing after a bucket break may not be picked up by mains of other characters, but the little things we do are really important to keep us hard to read. UpB is a godsend in Brawl because of the numerous ways to cancel it and the safety recovering from both high and low.
Anyway, Predictability is an issue as any character in the game, and it doesn't seem to actually be a big issue for us. Our mixup game is deep and nuanced, but may not seem to be to most people. Game and Watch may outwardly appear shallow, but this is simply not the case, as most mains can see.
Point 2: G&W is slow
This was brought up in the social thread, and it's been mentioned time and time again regarding our C+C game in general. G&W's moves don't seem as "fast" as many other characters which makes him quite weak when at point blank range. Whether they mean he is slow in regards to his mobility in his approaches or whether they are strictly speaking framewise, they are wrong in both occasions.
I'll be referencing this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244329
In regards to mobility, G&W is above average in all ground related speeds. His walking speed, his dash, and his running are all up there. G&W has no issues with traveling the stage at all. One thing you should note is that G&W's base aerial mobility is extremely poor, while his maximum air speed and his aerial mobility boost while decelerating are amazing. This makes for a unique type of aerial movement that Jigglypuff and he share that makes moving into and out of range quickly with pokes extremely effective. If G&W had a more "typical" movement in air, his aerials would be a lot less glamorous, as he would commit to so much, but ducking in and out with his unique blend of mobility makes his aerials incredibly safe.
I'll be referencing this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189251
Now, if this statement is in regards to the speed of G&W's moves on a frame by frame basis, it's still wrong or at least too vague. First off, G&W's startup time on several of his moves are exceptionally well: His upB's windbox hits on frame 3 and has invincibility on frame 5, despite the frame data thread stating differently (the data on upB was some of the earliest data, don't hate on HotGarbage!). Jab hits on frame 4, standing grab hits on frame 6, as does Dash attack and Dtilt. Also Oil Panic hits on frame 2! Those are all just examples of his exceptionally fast moves. None of his moves are actually really slow at starting up, besides his smashes which have quick charge releases. Startup isn't the only criteria for speed in moves, however. G&W has notably little cooldown on many of his moves, including his smashes, which is another aspect of a character's speed in C+C. His aerials also have little landing lag, with the exception of his Dair. Bair has landing lag, when not canceled during the other hitboxes or canceled before the hitbox, but that is covered by it's landing hitbox. Dtilt is a great example of our close combat game: Hits on frame 6 and it ends on frame 25, and has amazing range.
G&W's speed is not an issue. It's not even below average among the cast. His startup on a few moves is arguably poor, but it's made up by either quick cooldown or quick charge releases (if you are talking about his smashes). G&W is really mobile and framewise is solid. His moves that aren't as fast as we would like are made up by having great aspects like being only punishable on miss or powershield, which is remedied by low cooldown and charge times varying. His C+C isn't his most varied, granted, but his options make it so that it isn't a large detriment to his character as a whole. I would compare G&W to Arakune in Blazblue if anything. His close combat game is solid, but it's mostly supplemental to his ranged game which is simply overwhelming.
Point 3: G&W is light
This point has to be covered as any post describing G&W's weaknesses isn't complete without the complimentary "Lightweight" card. Being tied for second lightest character isn't an issue; there are always two sides to this aspect. Being Lighter means you get out of chaingrabs and followups much sooner than Heavier characters, with the let back that you die sooner to moves. For G&W, this isn't an issue at all because of one amazing find made by user A2ZOMG that is simply game changing. G&W's momentum cancelling via Bucket Breaking allows him to live longer than even heavy weights given the right situations. With proper DI and use of Bucket Breaking G&W is the longest living lightweight. MK can't claim something similar, heh. Bucket Breaking really makes his Light weight less of an issue and more of an advantage, even if you cant BB in every situation, especially when already near the blastzone.
Point 4: G&W has a poor approach game
This is for the most part covered in the first issue, but I suppose there is enough difference between these to cover this somewhat. People complain that G&W's approach is either predictable or stale, but in conjunction with his mixups, this is hardly the case in practice. G&W's approach on purely linear stages does leave some to be desired, but airdodging, fake outs, etc do really make this less of a big deal. Approaching is only necessary if you are down, so don't forget that!
On stages that are more interactive in terms of hazards or platforms, G&W's approach game is incredibly vast. Halberd opens up so many options by having the bottom of the stage pass through and the upper platform being there that G&W's approaching game becomes impressive. G&W's approach is poor on Final Destination, and I'll give all the doom and gloomers that, but stage striking gets rid of this blatantly poor stage in favor for much more interactive neutrals such as Yoshi's Story.
Point 5: G&W lacks a solid projectile game
The logic behind this complaint is that without a typical projectile to pressure the opponent, G&W will always be forced to approach the opponent, and this leads into the aforementioned issue of G&W's "poor" approach game. Chef is definitely better than people like to believe, but it' definitely not an across-stage pressuring tool. However, this doesn't make G&W a poor character in not having a projectile like Falco; pressure to approach G&W can be gained by a percent or stock lead, and this situation is incredibly good for us in general. Not having this when behind isn't an issue in most matchups on most stages because either your approach is varied enough on the stage, or the opposing character doesn't shut down your approach game on linear stages. It becomes in issue for example on Final Destination against Meta Knight, but that's a more extreme example that people seem to fall back to when discussing this being an issue.
G&W has much less issues against projectiles than people like Meta Knight, though neither are particularly weak towards them. G&W doesn't have transcendental priority, which is actually a benefit in breaking non energy projectiles. He cancels arrows and such while Meta Knight is forced into approaching by powershielding the majority of the time. The bucket also curbs the use of energy projectiles. Uair is surprisingly effective against explosives, too. G&W doesn't have issues dealing with projectiles based on his mobility and the properties of his moves, so having a typical projectile isn't an imperative nor would it actually help out in most matchups anyway.
Chef is incredibly useful, and I wouldn't trade it for anything short of a Gyro or Nades. A projectile that hits across the stage mainly would make the MK matchup easier on poor G&W stages like FD.
---
I'll add more eventually given feedback and some time to remember other arguments I've heard as to why G&W isn't too great a character. These are just the things I could think off the top of my head. If you have things to add, let me know. If you think my reasoning against these are poor in some way, feel free to share that. I don't mind, this thread is to help generate activity!
As towards the real issues Mr Game and Watch suffers, this should actually be fairly evident if you read through the majority of what I wrote. G&W's number one flaw, which is actually non obvious, is regional stage selections being extremely conservative. As mentioned in the bit on approaching, G&W's worst time when trying to approach is on linear stages. G&W's best time is when fighting a vertical game, so stages that are heavily geared towards horizontal gameplay will make G&W seem poorer than he actually is. Conservative regions, such as those with just 5 stages as starters favor MK, Ice Climbers, Diddy, etc and give G&W a natural disadvantage. When the stage list opens to 7 stages as a starter and you can strike not only just FD/SV and now able to have a more favorable ability to get a better stage for yourself, G&W performs much better. Not only just starters, when G&W is forced into having just a single good counterpick stage, like Norfair, the opponent can easily ban just that and have an easy upper hand on you. When the region's list is more liberal, they end up banning Rainbow Cruise, you still have Norfair, Brinstar, and Green Greens to pick. These regions are what TOs should usually be offering. They give lots of options, which benefits those characters who enjoy the options, such as ourselves. MK is such a "problem" because he thrives in such constrained stage lists. Ice Climbers are also less glamorous when more CPs are opened up. Wario and G&W like options.
The biggest issue G&W has is conservative regions with few starters and few counterpicks. As a character he is amazing, but the settings that most people play in arent optimal.
Anyway, feedback time?
I did this all in one sitting, so don't expect it to be my greatest work or whatever. I just wanted to get something posted.
.
