Dekar173
Justice Man
In all honesty, competitive Brawl has two big obstacles in it's way if it wants to go big.
The first of which can easily be defined as "gay play" with the ultimate goal of winning in mind. Being competitive is one thing, but doing anything in order to win? I don't think so. But how far, is too far?
1. Infinite grabs- Of late, this hasn't been as much of an issue, but from what I can tell a few tourneys are run without any form of limitation on infinites (ICs infinites should NOT be limited, as they actually take skill and can be mindgamed out of...) easy infinites such as D3's or infinite grab releases on the other hand, should be at the very least limited, if not outright banned, EVERYWHERE.
My big beef with chaingrabs isn't about maining a character that gets infinited (at a time, Ness was my main, until I learned it was hopeless) or because I lose due to them, as Diddy is extremely difficult to land grabs on. No, in fact I encourage people to use chaingrabs to the best of their knowledge when playing against me, as it gives me the competitive edge when confronted with that obstacle in actual tournament play.
Despite how I feel, others don't necessarily feel the same way, and rightfully so, as they don't main a character who is barely ever grabbed, and even then, isn't a very CG friendly character (<3 Diddy)
DK, Mario, Ness, Luigi, Samus, Bowser, Lucas, Fox, Wolf, hell even PT mains (Squirtle you poor thing) on the other hand- they're all MAJORLY effected by it. So much in fact, that what little chances they had of being deemed viable (minus PT, Reflextoogood *cough*) was shot down by infinites.
But the players themselves aren't the ONLY ones effected by infinites/very good chaingrabs (Wario Pika D3 wtf!) but the audience is as well, and in turn, we the community are.
Who wants to watch a match that consists of grabbing to death?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v8Myoltijo
Not me, and I love Brawl. I watch Brawl matches/livestreams all of the time. If I won't watch infinite after infinite... why would any newcomers or MLG spectators want to?
2. Stalling, of all varieties- Stalling, as its name suggests, is just that, stalling a match for the sole purpose of timing it out. What does this mean for a planking MK or aircamping Wario? Well, typically it means a win. Anything to win, right? Well, sure, it's understandable that you want to take the cake and place in the green at a national level tournament. But at what cost? The cost of the fans? I don't think it's worth the risk, as without a fanbase, competitive won't get any recognition, any respect, and most importantly, any sponsors.
After reading this, I'm sure there is one specific controversial set that comes to mind for most of you:
A couple vids from said set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3WhTS9hPUM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUrDMK-ySb4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHD54aUDcAw&feature=related
Don't get me wrong, Dojo is an extremely good player, but his resorting to this sort of play doesn't display just how good he is, it displays how well he can run away once he's got the lead.
It may be fun to be playing against someone of Dojo's caliber when they're playing to win, but it isn't fun to watch, and THAT is detrimental to the community as a whole.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I couldn't want anything more for Smash than for it to be picked up on the MLG Pro Circuit this upcoming year.
Unfortunately for us, if the metagame keeps heading this way and we continue to allow it to do so, I don't think MLG will particularly WANT our game picked up.
What do you think?
tl;dr flashy may not mean unbeatable, but it IS fun to watch. Food for thought.
UPDATE: because people can't be expected to read every single post on this thread.
Infinites aren't the main argument here, and not once did I say "ban IC's infinites!!!11!" The structure of OP was supposed to ultimately lead into revealing stalling as the main problem, and not even a problem of "it makes it harder for others to win!!!" but rather- it makes it harder for our community to be taken seriously and become even better than it already is.
I'm going to try and bring something to light here:
The players are where the money is.
The money is where the sponsors are.
The sponsors are where the advertisements are.
The advertisements are where the viewers are.
The viewers are where the entertainment is.
What form of entertainment is stalling supposed to be considered?
I can sit and watch a match in which DMG is playing and not be bored, simply because I PLAY THIS GAME.
What about people who would be watching the MLG circuit at home, who DON'T play this game competitively, and understand how amazingly skill-intensive it really is to stall a match, but instead see Wario running away all day and then say to their friends "Why's that dude runnin away he should be fighting what a **** lol let's go watch ufc instead" and then flick off the livestream.
This isn't a topic about making it "more fair" for other characters or giving myself an advantage/erasing a possible threat I might run into at tournaments, this is about fixing a problem before it's too late.
Brawl has yet to be picked up by MLG, and even in the current metagame, could very well be as someone has stated simply due to how large Brawl's community is. But what then? What if matches deteriorate into campfests, simply because people actually live by the motto of "play to win" and someone finally ends up on the livestream, running away once the lead has been gained?
Brawl would be dropped without a second thought, because boring gameplay isn't going to bring in new players or viewers.
It's a dangerous possibility for the Brawl community, as we've already demonstrated in our youth with the recent issues of Planking and whether or not to ban Metaknight that we can't handle drama. What would losing a MAJOR sponsor like MLG do to us?
A note: after rereading OP and my prior statements, it seems to even me as if I'm being a lot like Yuna was when he thought airtripping was real (LMFAO). This wasn't my intention. I'm just trying to bring something to light that is a mere POSSIBILITY. I can't tell the future, so I don't know what's going to happen, I just want it to be something good
The first of which can easily be defined as "gay play" with the ultimate goal of winning in mind. Being competitive is one thing, but doing anything in order to win? I don't think so. But how far, is too far?
1. Infinite grabs- Of late, this hasn't been as much of an issue, but from what I can tell a few tourneys are run without any form of limitation on infinites (ICs infinites should NOT be limited, as they actually take skill and can be mindgamed out of...) easy infinites such as D3's or infinite grab releases on the other hand, should be at the very least limited, if not outright banned, EVERYWHERE.
My big beef with chaingrabs isn't about maining a character that gets infinited (at a time, Ness was my main, until I learned it was hopeless) or because I lose due to them, as Diddy is extremely difficult to land grabs on. No, in fact I encourage people to use chaingrabs to the best of their knowledge when playing against me, as it gives me the competitive edge when confronted with that obstacle in actual tournament play.
Despite how I feel, others don't necessarily feel the same way, and rightfully so, as they don't main a character who is barely ever grabbed, and even then, isn't a very CG friendly character (<3 Diddy)
DK, Mario, Ness, Luigi, Samus, Bowser, Lucas, Fox, Wolf, hell even PT mains (Squirtle you poor thing) on the other hand- they're all MAJORLY effected by it. So much in fact, that what little chances they had of being deemed viable (minus PT, Reflextoogood *cough*) was shot down by infinites.
But the players themselves aren't the ONLY ones effected by infinites/very good chaingrabs (Wario Pika D3 wtf!) but the audience is as well, and in turn, we the community are.
Who wants to watch a match that consists of grabbing to death?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v8Myoltijo
Not me, and I love Brawl. I watch Brawl matches/livestreams all of the time. If I won't watch infinite after infinite... why would any newcomers or MLG spectators want to?
2. Stalling, of all varieties- Stalling, as its name suggests, is just that, stalling a match for the sole purpose of timing it out. What does this mean for a planking MK or aircamping Wario? Well, typically it means a win. Anything to win, right? Well, sure, it's understandable that you want to take the cake and place in the green at a national level tournament. But at what cost? The cost of the fans? I don't think it's worth the risk, as without a fanbase, competitive won't get any recognition, any respect, and most importantly, any sponsors.
After reading this, I'm sure there is one specific controversial set that comes to mind for most of you:
A couple vids from said set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3WhTS9hPUM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUrDMK-ySb4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHD54aUDcAw&feature=related
Don't get me wrong, Dojo is an extremely good player, but his resorting to this sort of play doesn't display just how good he is, it displays how well he can run away once he's got the lead.
It may be fun to be playing against someone of Dojo's caliber when they're playing to win, but it isn't fun to watch, and THAT is detrimental to the community as a whole.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I couldn't want anything more for Smash than for it to be picked up on the MLG Pro Circuit this upcoming year.
Unfortunately for us, if the metagame keeps heading this way and we continue to allow it to do so, I don't think MLG will particularly WANT our game picked up.
What do you think?
tl;dr flashy may not mean unbeatable, but it IS fun to watch. Food for thought.
UPDATE: because people can't be expected to read every single post on this thread.
Infinites aren't the main argument here, and not once did I say "ban IC's infinites!!!11!" The structure of OP was supposed to ultimately lead into revealing stalling as the main problem, and not even a problem of "it makes it harder for others to win!!!" but rather- it makes it harder for our community to be taken seriously and become even better than it already is.
I'm going to try and bring something to light here:
The players are where the money is.
The money is where the sponsors are.
The sponsors are where the advertisements are.
The advertisements are where the viewers are.
The viewers are where the entertainment is.
What form of entertainment is stalling supposed to be considered?
I can sit and watch a match in which DMG is playing and not be bored, simply because I PLAY THIS GAME.
What about people who would be watching the MLG circuit at home, who DON'T play this game competitively, and understand how amazingly skill-intensive it really is to stall a match, but instead see Wario running away all day and then say to their friends "Why's that dude runnin away he should be fighting what a **** lol let's go watch ufc instead" and then flick off the livestream.
This isn't a topic about making it "more fair" for other characters or giving myself an advantage/erasing a possible threat I might run into at tournaments, this is about fixing a problem before it's too late.
Brawl has yet to be picked up by MLG, and even in the current metagame, could very well be as someone has stated simply due to how large Brawl's community is. But what then? What if matches deteriorate into campfests, simply because people actually live by the motto of "play to win" and someone finally ends up on the livestream, running away once the lead has been gained?
Brawl would be dropped without a second thought, because boring gameplay isn't going to bring in new players or viewers.
It's a dangerous possibility for the Brawl community, as we've already demonstrated in our youth with the recent issues of Planking and whether or not to ban Metaknight that we can't handle drama. What would losing a MAJOR sponsor like MLG do to us?
A note: after rereading OP and my prior statements, it seems to even me as if I'm being a lot like Yuna was when he thought airtripping was real (LMFAO). This wasn't my intention. I'm just trying to bring something to light that is a mere POSSIBILITY. I can't tell the future, so I don't know what's going to happen, I just want it to be something good
