Darth Waffles
Smash Lord
Taken from one of Dull's other threads
ROB's Advantages:
ROB's Disadvantages:
Opponent's Advantages:
Opponent's Disadvantages:
What ROB should try to do:
How opponent can stop it:
What Opponent should be trying to do:
How ROB can stop it:
Counterpicks (what ROB should pick/ What opponent will pick {If you're someone contributing from another board})
Bans (what ROB should ban 1 via stage strike, 1 via personal ban)
Preferred Neutral (what ROB wants/ What opponent wants {If you're someone contributing from another board})
Ratio:
Plus, any anecdotes/explanations you wanna give.
Anyway...
Calculating Mechanical Advantage: How to win the ROB ditto
This in-depth post will show you, the ROB ditto failure, how to become much better at the ditto. Break out that TI-9001 calculator (It’s > TI-9000!) and start taking notes, because here we go!
Step 1: Realize and accept that ROB vs ROB is a legitimate matchup.
Let’s start by dispelling the myth of what I call “theoretical dittos.” In these dittos, both ROBs jump at the same time, every time. They fire projectiles at the same time, every time, and their attacks cancel each other because they hit at the same time, every time.
This does not happen. This is also different than firing two lasers in different directions so that they both connect. We’ll get to that part in a bit. People play differently, and just because it is theoretically possible that both players could do the exact same thing, it does not actually happen nearly as often as people give it credit for. This is no different from saying that ROB’s projectiles are valuable in many matchups, but then disregarding them simply because it is theoretically possible that the opponent could powershield all of them. It won’t happen. This means that dittos aren’t automatically “50-50, they have the same tools you do, next matchup discussion please.” If you believe this, you will find yourself in a bad position when you do play the ditto. There is a clear difference between theory and practice, especially in dittos.
Why play the ditto?
If you’re good at the ditto, there’s no reason not to play it (It’s fun!), tourney match or not. If you have to counterpick a character against your own robotic doppelganger, then you’re not confident enough AS ROB to play AGAINST ROB. 50-50 is not counterpick-worthy in my opinion, and from one ROB player to another, it really says something about your skill level if you have to counterpick MK or something just to play another ROB =\
Some people hate dittos because they don’t know what to do. This applies to punishment-based characters like Falcon or Sonic. They do a lot of baiting and punishing where possible, rather than fighting and making the first move. When two punishment-based characters play dittos, neither wants to make the first move, because they are so used to punishing lag to rack up damage rather than go on the offensive. ROB can bait and punish, but he can also make the first move in dittos. Other people hate dittos just because they don’t know the matchup, and they take things for granted. A good ROB can punish another ROB well, and dittos will make you understand just how much lag (and range) a laser or gyro has. Not knowing the matchup is not a valid excuse. Every matchup has certain things you need to know, and the ditto is no exception. Backair beats Falco’s side B, you can grab release> upsmash Wario if he airbreaks, etc. There are little details that can really help you if you take the time to learn them, even in the ditto. A win is a win in tournament matches, and going to losers because you lost against another ROB won’t mean anything different than if you had lost to a different character.
Step 2: Win
Readyyyyyyyy….Go! Now what? Welcome to the first game of Rock, Paper, Scissors.
--Immediate laser beats running forward or charging gyro/shot attempt, ties with immediate shield, and loses (if missed) to jump>gyro charge/shot or grounded gyro charge/shot.
--Charging gyro beats immediate shield and jump forward>airdodge to avoid the laser, possibly beats jumping>gyro (depending on the length of the stage… if you fire it, will you eat a laser/gyro in return?), and loses to immediate laser (could tie on larger stages if you can powershield in time)
--Defensive options: Jump forward>airdodge/read opponent or shield, both of which will ensure that you don’t take damage and can use possible lag to charge a gyro or fire a laser, but at the risk of having a weaker gyro, possibly a gyro in the opponent’s hand on a large stage like Final D, not to mention a positional weakness on Frigate (you may start on the left platform of Frigate, where either of these actions will put you at an immediate disadvantage).
All of this will be decided in the first two seconds of the match. What would YOU do in their position? What are THEY trying to do? How tempting is it to immediately drop through that platform on Battlefield? Would you do it if you knew the other ROB could angle a laser down, hit you, and drop down himself during the laser’s impact? If you stay up and charge a gyro, will the other ROB drop down and shoot a laser at you?
ROB’s laser has transcendent priority. It will go through the gyro and stop it in its tracks and/or push it back a little bit (weak) or knock it back in the air (MANzer) if the two collide. ROB’s laser also has lag. A LOT of lag. This is lag you tend to not notice outside of the ditto because nobody else can really punish it if you miss. When you fire a laser in the air and you nearly land on the opponent’s obvious gyro, you’ll notice it. Get used to floating down offstage and expecting the opponent’s laser to come as well. Airdodging is the best choice to avoid the laser when recovering.
Gyro in dittos:
This deserves a separate section because of its importance and effect. In other matchups, the only way you have to deal with a gyro is if you send it out and the opponent grabs it. This is important because if you see a gyro on the ground, it’s yours- otherwise it’ll disappear very quickly. This isn’t the case in dittos, though. If you don’t shield the gyro, learn to deal with a spinning gyro on the stage. That being said, having the opponent’s gyro is amazing. It makes me think of 1:20 here for some reason
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaT2pBiS-JI&feature=related
You get the opponent’s gyro, you had better get something out of it. Damage, position, mindgames (glide tossing two gyros up at the edge is too much win!). You’ve just taken away half of the other ROB’s projectiles. You can now use your own gyro, your laser, or the other gyro, whereas the other ROB must approach(!). Not that approaching in ROB dittos is a bad thing, but it’s certainly a disadvantage when your opponent has your gyro in hand.
You get the gyro, you don’t give it back for just anything. You can camp until he gets yours, you can punish his approach, mix it up. Don’t be predictable about throwing it at him or what attack you use after it- you don’t want him to get it back or punish you. If you hold A when grabbing the gyro, you can still use smash attacks with the Cstick, charging them with Z while still holding the gyro. Glide toss up is nice when the other ROB is above the stage, especially when recovering, because even if the up B is cancelled, it’s hard for ROB to steal it because of the hitbox compared to the airdodge catching area.
The gyro, despite being this good, has a LOT of lag after you shoot it (or if you press it while already having it on the stage). Use this lag to get a laser on the other ROB if you’re far away.
Spacing/Approaching
Ftilt is nice. Getting an Ftilt powershielded and then getting hit with one in return is not so nice. Dtilt is nice. Getting hit with Fairs is not so nice. Short hopped Nairs and double fairs (or fair>bair) are nice. Getting shieldgrabbed or Dsmashed afterwards is not so nice. It’s Rock-Paper-Scissors game number two. It’s no different than deciding what to do against another character when close; just get used to mixing it up. Dtilt has surprising range, and if you ever find yourself losing forward air clashes, it’s because you’re not buffering yours. You can tell the difference between sliding your finger from Y or X to A (or C stick) and jumping and then pressing it. If you hit with the first fair, you can get a second one in. Don’t expect to get much before the position resets, either.
Offstage/Edgeguarding
So you’ve racked up a bit of damage and you’ve gotten ROB offstage… can you edgeguard a ROB? Yes!
If you’re ON the stage, always consider whether or not you are about to be harassed with incoming lasers/gyros. Can you follow up your attack with a laser/gyro? Consider putting your own gyro right at the edge of the stage unless the ROB is recovering high, in which case it may be better to use the time to fire a quick gyro and grab it rather than charge one. If the ROB makes it to the ledge and starts dropping down, Z dropping the gyro if it’s in hand works well, otherwise leave the gyro on the edge, run off, and Bair him. If no gyro is around, I like to space Bairs against the edge, making it very hard to drop down and double jump with anything. Get-up attack has surprisingly large range, but if shielded, can be punished immediately. Shield beats Get-up attack but not always a mix between rolling or getting up normally, both of which Bair can take care of.
The winner of ROB dittos offstage is the one that makes the SECOND MOVE. By all means, continue hitting with the fairs if you can, but if you’re not directly next to each other, the winner is the one that forces the mistake. Bair/Dair are nice knockback moves (ROB won’t die from just one), but if you’re not smart about it, the second move will be the upair, doing massive damage to you. Baiting an airdodge and hitting with nair is a good example, as is Z-dropping the gyro and reading the opponent. If you’re the one coming back, Bair can really help you if you recover high in order to get away from an incoming upsmash. If you’re offstage, TRUST YOUR FUEL! A lot of times, you’ll get punished for immediately looking to grab the edge. If you don’t always rush back, you can punish a badly-spaced aerial with a 20+% upair or a nice fair/nair of your own.
Killing
Upthrow is a last resort, but don’t spam smashes when you’re in this range- it’s painfully obvious. Fsmash kills, MANzers (charged lasers) can kill, and the rest of the usual moves still do. Upsmash in dittos is a LOT more effective due to ROB’s blind spot below him. ROB, despite being floaty, isn’t exactly light, and it’ll usually take at least 130-140 percent before another ROB’s smashes or fresh aerials will kill (upsmash kills lower, around 110-ish). A lot of KO opportunities, though, will come in these offstage battles. Eventually, ROB’s fuel will run out if he doesn’t reach the ground. Use this to your advantage- if you’re baiting an action, take note of how much fuel is left. How desperate will the other ROB be to get back on the stage- can you set up a kill by “letting” him on?
I like forcing offstage ROB battles so I still like Frigate or even Cruise (risking a serious MK cp lol) in the ditto. Pick stages you normally do well on, just keep in mind that you might always be in danger of the other ROB’s laser/gyro, even if you’re far away. Learn to powershield them in order to make approaching a lot easier. Jab is awesome too. At 3 frames, it’s faster than dsmash, so you can win quite a few close-quarter encounters by jabbing.
…Abrupt end.
Oh yeah, I think I have a video of myself doing the side B thing to survive and having the side B reflect the other ROB's MANzer, saving me from the hit lol
ROB's Advantages:
ROB's Disadvantages:
Opponent's Advantages:
Opponent's Disadvantages:
What ROB should try to do:
How opponent can stop it:
What Opponent should be trying to do:
How ROB can stop it:
Counterpicks (what ROB should pick/ What opponent will pick {If you're someone contributing from another board})
Bans (what ROB should ban 1 via stage strike, 1 via personal ban)
Preferred Neutral (what ROB wants/ What opponent wants {If you're someone contributing from another board})
Ratio:
Plus, any anecdotes/explanations you wanna give.
Anyway...
Calculating Mechanical Advantage: How to win the ROB ditto
This in-depth post will show you, the ROB ditto failure, how to become much better at the ditto. Break out that TI-9001 calculator (It’s > TI-9000!) and start taking notes, because here we go!
Step 1: Realize and accept that ROB vs ROB is a legitimate matchup.
Let’s start by dispelling the myth of what I call “theoretical dittos.” In these dittos, both ROBs jump at the same time, every time. They fire projectiles at the same time, every time, and their attacks cancel each other because they hit at the same time, every time.
This does not happen. This is also different than firing two lasers in different directions so that they both connect. We’ll get to that part in a bit. People play differently, and just because it is theoretically possible that both players could do the exact same thing, it does not actually happen nearly as often as people give it credit for. This is no different from saying that ROB’s projectiles are valuable in many matchups, but then disregarding them simply because it is theoretically possible that the opponent could powershield all of them. It won’t happen. This means that dittos aren’t automatically “50-50, they have the same tools you do, next matchup discussion please.” If you believe this, you will find yourself in a bad position when you do play the ditto. There is a clear difference between theory and practice, especially in dittos.
Why play the ditto?
If you’re good at the ditto, there’s no reason not to play it (It’s fun!), tourney match or not. If you have to counterpick a character against your own robotic doppelganger, then you’re not confident enough AS ROB to play AGAINST ROB. 50-50 is not counterpick-worthy in my opinion, and from one ROB player to another, it really says something about your skill level if you have to counterpick MK or something just to play another ROB =\
Some people hate dittos because they don’t know what to do. This applies to punishment-based characters like Falcon or Sonic. They do a lot of baiting and punishing where possible, rather than fighting and making the first move. When two punishment-based characters play dittos, neither wants to make the first move, because they are so used to punishing lag to rack up damage rather than go on the offensive. ROB can bait and punish, but he can also make the first move in dittos. Other people hate dittos just because they don’t know the matchup, and they take things for granted. A good ROB can punish another ROB well, and dittos will make you understand just how much lag (and range) a laser or gyro has. Not knowing the matchup is not a valid excuse. Every matchup has certain things you need to know, and the ditto is no exception. Backair beats Falco’s side B, you can grab release> upsmash Wario if he airbreaks, etc. There are little details that can really help you if you take the time to learn them, even in the ditto. A win is a win in tournament matches, and going to losers because you lost against another ROB won’t mean anything different than if you had lost to a different character.
Step 2: Win
Readyyyyyyyy….Go! Now what? Welcome to the first game of Rock, Paper, Scissors.
--Immediate laser beats running forward or charging gyro/shot attempt, ties with immediate shield, and loses (if missed) to jump>gyro charge/shot or grounded gyro charge/shot.
--Charging gyro beats immediate shield and jump forward>airdodge to avoid the laser, possibly beats jumping>gyro (depending on the length of the stage… if you fire it, will you eat a laser/gyro in return?), and loses to immediate laser (could tie on larger stages if you can powershield in time)
--Defensive options: Jump forward>airdodge/read opponent or shield, both of which will ensure that you don’t take damage and can use possible lag to charge a gyro or fire a laser, but at the risk of having a weaker gyro, possibly a gyro in the opponent’s hand on a large stage like Final D, not to mention a positional weakness on Frigate (you may start on the left platform of Frigate, where either of these actions will put you at an immediate disadvantage).
All of this will be decided in the first two seconds of the match. What would YOU do in their position? What are THEY trying to do? How tempting is it to immediately drop through that platform on Battlefield? Would you do it if you knew the other ROB could angle a laser down, hit you, and drop down himself during the laser’s impact? If you stay up and charge a gyro, will the other ROB drop down and shoot a laser at you?
ROB’s laser has transcendent priority. It will go through the gyro and stop it in its tracks and/or push it back a little bit (weak) or knock it back in the air (MANzer) if the two collide. ROB’s laser also has lag. A LOT of lag. This is lag you tend to not notice outside of the ditto because nobody else can really punish it if you miss. When you fire a laser in the air and you nearly land on the opponent’s obvious gyro, you’ll notice it. Get used to floating down offstage and expecting the opponent’s laser to come as well. Airdodging is the best choice to avoid the laser when recovering.
Gyro in dittos:
This deserves a separate section because of its importance and effect. In other matchups, the only way you have to deal with a gyro is if you send it out and the opponent grabs it. This is important because if you see a gyro on the ground, it’s yours- otherwise it’ll disappear very quickly. This isn’t the case in dittos, though. If you don’t shield the gyro, learn to deal with a spinning gyro on the stage. That being said, having the opponent’s gyro is amazing. It makes me think of 1:20 here for some reason
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaT2pBiS-JI&feature=related
You get the opponent’s gyro, you had better get something out of it. Damage, position, mindgames (glide tossing two gyros up at the edge is too much win!). You’ve just taken away half of the other ROB’s projectiles. You can now use your own gyro, your laser, or the other gyro, whereas the other ROB must approach(!). Not that approaching in ROB dittos is a bad thing, but it’s certainly a disadvantage when your opponent has your gyro in hand.
You get the gyro, you don’t give it back for just anything. You can camp until he gets yours, you can punish his approach, mix it up. Don’t be predictable about throwing it at him or what attack you use after it- you don’t want him to get it back or punish you. If you hold A when grabbing the gyro, you can still use smash attacks with the Cstick, charging them with Z while still holding the gyro. Glide toss up is nice when the other ROB is above the stage, especially when recovering, because even if the up B is cancelled, it’s hard for ROB to steal it because of the hitbox compared to the airdodge catching area.
The gyro, despite being this good, has a LOT of lag after you shoot it (or if you press it while already having it on the stage). Use this lag to get a laser on the other ROB if you’re far away.
Spacing/Approaching
Ftilt is nice. Getting an Ftilt powershielded and then getting hit with one in return is not so nice. Dtilt is nice. Getting hit with Fairs is not so nice. Short hopped Nairs and double fairs (or fair>bair) are nice. Getting shieldgrabbed or Dsmashed afterwards is not so nice. It’s Rock-Paper-Scissors game number two. It’s no different than deciding what to do against another character when close; just get used to mixing it up. Dtilt has surprising range, and if you ever find yourself losing forward air clashes, it’s because you’re not buffering yours. You can tell the difference between sliding your finger from Y or X to A (or C stick) and jumping and then pressing it. If you hit with the first fair, you can get a second one in. Don’t expect to get much before the position resets, either.
Offstage/Edgeguarding
So you’ve racked up a bit of damage and you’ve gotten ROB offstage… can you edgeguard a ROB? Yes!
If you’re ON the stage, always consider whether or not you are about to be harassed with incoming lasers/gyros. Can you follow up your attack with a laser/gyro? Consider putting your own gyro right at the edge of the stage unless the ROB is recovering high, in which case it may be better to use the time to fire a quick gyro and grab it rather than charge one. If the ROB makes it to the ledge and starts dropping down, Z dropping the gyro if it’s in hand works well, otherwise leave the gyro on the edge, run off, and Bair him. If no gyro is around, I like to space Bairs against the edge, making it very hard to drop down and double jump with anything. Get-up attack has surprisingly large range, but if shielded, can be punished immediately. Shield beats Get-up attack but not always a mix between rolling or getting up normally, both of which Bair can take care of.
The winner of ROB dittos offstage is the one that makes the SECOND MOVE. By all means, continue hitting with the fairs if you can, but if you’re not directly next to each other, the winner is the one that forces the mistake. Bair/Dair are nice knockback moves (ROB won’t die from just one), but if you’re not smart about it, the second move will be the upair, doing massive damage to you. Baiting an airdodge and hitting with nair is a good example, as is Z-dropping the gyro and reading the opponent. If you’re the one coming back, Bair can really help you if you recover high in order to get away from an incoming upsmash. If you’re offstage, TRUST YOUR FUEL! A lot of times, you’ll get punished for immediately looking to grab the edge. If you don’t always rush back, you can punish a badly-spaced aerial with a 20+% upair or a nice fair/nair of your own.
Killing
Upthrow is a last resort, but don’t spam smashes when you’re in this range- it’s painfully obvious. Fsmash kills, MANzers (charged lasers) can kill, and the rest of the usual moves still do. Upsmash in dittos is a LOT more effective due to ROB’s blind spot below him. ROB, despite being floaty, isn’t exactly light, and it’ll usually take at least 130-140 percent before another ROB’s smashes or fresh aerials will kill (upsmash kills lower, around 110-ish). A lot of KO opportunities, though, will come in these offstage battles. Eventually, ROB’s fuel will run out if he doesn’t reach the ground. Use this to your advantage- if you’re baiting an action, take note of how much fuel is left. How desperate will the other ROB be to get back on the stage- can you set up a kill by “letting” him on?
I like forcing offstage ROB battles so I still like Frigate or even Cruise (risking a serious MK cp lol) in the ditto. Pick stages you normally do well on, just keep in mind that you might always be in danger of the other ROB’s laser/gyro, even if you’re far away. Learn to powershield them in order to make approaching a lot easier. Jab is awesome too. At 3 frames, it’s faster than dsmash, so you can win quite a few close-quarter encounters by jabbing.
…Abrupt end.
Oh yeah, I think I have a video of myself doing the side B thing to survive and having the side B reflect the other ROB's MANzer, saving me from the hit lol
