Lucario vs. Fox (22) Export

Fox

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Rockettrainer said:

Overall
-You won't see too many Foxes in tournament, but a good Fox could surprise you. Just be prepared if you've never played one. Matchup is evenish IMO.

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Lightning93 said:

You guys know how the Fox v Lucario matchup works right?

You out-space and out-prioritize, but we out-camp. Your lil Force Palm chain does some good damage, but we don't have to approach, like... at all...

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SnowballBob33 said:

The MU is 50-50. I've played a lot of lucarios and it always seems about even. It's a lot to it. usmash kills and we can gimp before aura gets too big. AS can force fox to up b which can get kills. We get punished hard if our recovery gets predicted. Fox can camp better... but yea, it seems about even

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Rockettrainer said:

My experience is very limited...I haven't played a good tourney Fox in forever. But, I can help with some very GENERAL info. Someone else has to fill in the gaps, lol...

Fox:

What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Dsmash and Fsmash: You probably won't see these moves too often, because usmash is the preferred kill move of choice. But know that they can still kill if you don't expect it. If anything, the Fox might use these for damage building to keep his usmash fresh.

-Usmash: Fox was well known for this move in Melee. While it's not the strongest usmash in the game, it certainly is probably one of the best because it comes out INSANELY fast. Lucario has not-so-good vertical recovery, so you can imagine this is bad news for him. And the fact that he can do it OoS...yeah. Most Foxes will try to leave this move fresh in order to get low percent kills. If the move does not sweetspot (you are hit with the back part of it), you will be knocked away at a horizontal trajectory. WATCH OUT FOR THOSE RUNNING USMASHES. Just keep an eye on your damage meter...if it approaches around 90% or so, expect a usmash in the very near future. If not, then you might get hit with a...

-Uair: Once again, if you ever played Melee, then you should not be a stranger to this move. Fortunately, it's slightly less powerful than it was in Melee (I think). Still, it can kill at pretty low percent if a Fox tries to chase you in the air with it. You can SDI the first hit and avoid the second, but it's not easy. Think of it Lucario's dair...but upside down. Or right side up? Whatever...you can challenge it with dair, but be warned that if you don't stop his attack, you may regret it.

-Dair: The driller...you can SDI it and shield/PS whatever attack he tries to use after it at low percents. Higher percents though, you're probably going to die because it has a lot of hitstun...uair should stop this move in my experience.

-Bair: A pretty decent horizontal aerial kill move. It's kind of like Lucario's bair, but it doesn't linger.

-Reflector: AKA, the SHINE! You should know what this does...it reflects stuff. If you played Melee, you should know what a shinespike is...fortunately, it's not nearly as godly in Brawl, but it's still pretty good edgeguard move against some characters. Also, DON'T HANG AROUND CORNERS. Shine+wall=danger. Has some invincibility frames.

-Blaster: It's a gun that shoots lasers REALLY FAST. Must be made with low quality materials, because it causes no knockback and very little damage. Also, it must have malfunctioned because it has terrible range. Still, it's main purpose is to build up damage and to annoy. It also refreshes Fox's kill moves quickly. Hmm, maybe it's not a bad move after all...

-Fox Illusion: Fox's main recovery move. He pauses and then activates the move, making him travel as fast as a...fox. It can be canceled by the user for mindgames. Has some invincibility, but most moves can stop it.

-FireFox: Fox's vertical recovery move. It's not that good, but Fox is pretty well protected during the move. But most Foxes are afraid to use this move from fear of getting gimped.
...
Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
-Since Fox has a reflector, learn to use Aura Sphere wisely. Spamming AS in this match is a bad idea, unless it's to edgeguard a Fox that is offscreen.
-Watch out for shinespike attempts. Since Lucario's recovery does not protect him, a Fox could shinespike you, grab the edge, and force you to recover back onto the the stage. And that could mean a free punish...
-Be careful about using slower moves at higher percents, because a missed attack could mean a usmash to the face...

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Lightning93 said:

I THINK we might be able to cancel your second jab [options] with our jab, so I suggest grabbing/ftilt/force palm on the first jab. Be careful though, cause we Foxes don't need up-tilt anymore to combo, so your D-air won't work so much anymore . We can Jab>Jab>Cancel into an insane amount of options and followups (considering its Brawl) such as Shine>Upsmash or Shine>DA.

If you're in the air be careful because we have some good options to keep you juggled involving our F-air. I think overall our moves are faster in the air, but you guys have the aura to help you out so space well.

ALSO, if we get you down over the edge you are screwed if you don't find a way around us. Gimping Lucario is REALLY fun because his up-b can't hurt as at all. Shine spikes, drill-shines, dair, b-air, all those good things you need to watch out for. Depending on your position you should expect any of these options, so just try to predict us first. (I can elaborate if you want.)

EDIT: I think Moon-Doggie was referring to Fast Falling as opposed to weight. Fox is pretty "light" a.k.a susceptible to knockback.

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Lightning93 said:

Anyways, I agree sometimes zoning aerials are superior, but Lucario doesn't exactly have the same speed of MK or reach of DK to actually pressure Fox. I have no problem punishing a Lucario (or running away) after he initiates an approach. You might have a better chance if we're on the edge, but honestly Lucario has always been a fun fight for me.

You would have to be EXTREMELY careful when getting back on the stage though, cause good Foxes won't give you a chance to even AS properly. Many times I've been either able to jump into the AS and shine it back into the Lucario (or drop down a lil further for the shine spike), or just jump over it and go into Nair, pushing Lucario far enough away to hog the edge. I think warding any potential gimps first, then stalling, and then wallclinging (if possible) is the best route to go.

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Lightning93 said:

A good approach for you I would have to say is mainly Fair shield pokes to some jabs, from there you can do some grabs or whatnot. Maybe even throw out some AS if we're not looking.

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Rockettrainer said:

Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
-Lucario definitely has more range overall, but Fox has several moves that come out very quick. Fox also has plenty of kill moves, so Lucario might die kind of early if you aren't careful.
-Fox has very limited recovery options when offstage overall. He can either Illusion onto the stage, onto the edge, or use FireFox. Yeah, he can shinestall, use rising fair, cancel his Illusion, blah blah blah, but FireFox and Illusion are the main ways. Pay special attention to see if the Fox has used his second jump. If so, it REALLY limits his options.
-Lots of moves can go through Illusion. AS, Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, Jab...heck, you can even GRAB him out of it. The trick is to learn the timing. Illusion comes out pretty fast, so you just have to predict it.
-PLEASE NOTE: while it is THEORETICALLY easy to gimp a Fox, you probably won't do it that much unless the Fox doesn't know what they are doing. It's theoretically easy to gimp a Lucario because his recovery has no hitboxes, and yet, it's hard to do in practice...

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Rockettrainer said:

-Since Fox has a reflector, learn to use Aura Sphere wisely. Spamming AS in this match is a bad idea, unless it's to edgeguard a Fox that is offscreen.
-Watch out for shinespike attempts. Since Lucario's recovery does not protect him, a Fox could shinespike you, grab the edge, and force you to recover back onto the the stage. And that could mean a free punish...
-Be careful about using slower moves at higher percents, because a missed attack could mean a usmash to the face...

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phi1ny3 said:

Unfortunately, most underestimate fair's gimping power, as it's pretty much one of the best WoP in terms of stringing, I really have wanted to stress to lucarios how good his gimp options are (dair practically beats out every recovery hitbox in the game if well spaced, and even if they can recover, especially with more telegraphed recoveries you can get boatloads of damage on them (Kevin's seen this before lol).
I think your best response for that is to try to go higher, and to start "foxcopter" before he gets to you, don't bother with trying to hit him with the fair.
The issues is that fox has better recovery options, but lucario's edgeguarding/gimping options are pretty flexible and pretty good.
I agree with 50:50, it's pretty even.

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D. Disciple said:

I'm leaning the match up towards Lucario a bit more than Fox tbh.

I've played some Foxes, I've tinkered with Fox too as well. He's got some nice moves on Lucario that can give him an advantage in terms of ground games.

However, if Lucario can get Fox above him, then it's a hard time for Fox to try to get back on the ground. I know he has his shine, to stop us from hitting him with fair, or if we try to jump at him. But this is where our tilts come into play, an angled ftilt if they are closer to the edge, utilt juggling into uair to another utilt, bait the shine then carry off with fairs. If the Fox is off the stage, I like how they can hover with fair, it's really good and it stops bas spam too, but if the Fox messes up and this has happen. You can spam bas for a bit, if they try to go under them, then jump with fair to stop them, then you can expect them to illusion or momemtum shift back to the stage in this case just be patient, time a smash attack of your choice or knock them away again with ftilt.

Dealing with Fox's speed is annoying though, you pretty much have to play a bait and punish game with that. Run up to him, jump in the air if you expect them to run at you, don't use an aerial just airdodge into them and jab them into set ups. It's easier said than done,

but overall I give this 55:45 Lucario's favor.

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DarkAura said:

lucario is my second, he's hands down the coolest character in the game (higher than falcon on my list)

Lucario can just Fair fire fox, Dair, Uair anything once or twice and fox is doomed you must abuse the fact fire fox takes a millennium to charge
Fox however can easily, Gimp lucario we basically have all our specials (yes since im so awesome i gimp people with illusion and even Fire fox) and id say about 3 aerials 4 if your a ninja and all are easily landed

Shine for example we can shine stall a ledge to block your sweet spot then we can just shine again if that's not enough
Fox will most likely be using Nair, Dair or fair as an approach heres a little disect

Your Fair ***** our dair if you read it
Our fair beats all your aerials so id watch out for that one but if you see it coming i recommend a retreating Fair hitting with the Aura that shields Luca's hitbox
Nair is very easily avoided however it's harder to read if you see it i recommend a shield grab or if you have the port advantage a straight up grab will work with proper timing.

anyways back on track here these matches will be a competition of who has greater ground and aerial play gimping doesn't matter cause if your a good lucario facing a good fox most likely if either char is forced to recover using upB it's most likely gonna be a stock loss, each characters goal is to stay on the stage while getting the opposing player off (isn't that the goal in every match up?).

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phi1ny3 said:

Lucario can't FPCG if you know how to break out of it, just for quick re-clarification. If you can't mash, it will be a problem.
spacing/zoning aerials are imo better than faster, more "followup" oriented ones in themselves. Especially with good options when getting back to the ground.Fox used to be for me a "OMG HOWD HE DU THAT" sort of MU, once learning fox's strategy goes though it seems a lot more hardpressed to pressure a lucario who knows the ropes.
I hate fox's gimping options so very much. knowing every trick in the lucario recovery book is gonna help a lot (BAS while he's still onstage to make him put up shield and either run for the edge or stay, dair to stall, wallcling, fair/AS warding, "weaving", etc.)
imo it's a very even and pretty fun MU to play, I'd say 50:50 or 55:45 luca's favor because of stage picks (although I'm not too sure, I'd have to look up some more).

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Lightning93 said:

And yes I agree phi1, Lucario will have a much better time recovering above the stage than below. And if Fox is still waiting on the stage and you have a chance, by all means cover your recovery with an AS. Just for the love of the aura don't telegraph yourself because bad Lucario's become so obvious with their AS it's not even funny and in the end means their own destruction. One thing I do suggest though, is use non-charged AS as opposed to fully-charged. Fully-charged is hard to avoid when recovering if reflected due to its speed and size, and is too risky imo. I think little AS would be best because you achieve a stun effect without risking your stock if the Fox decides to jump in front of you.

And please, would you mind elaborating on this Dash Attack stuff? Or provide a link or something?

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phi1ny3 said:

One CG we do have is a pathetic one, but it's a uthrow (lol this sounds like a Melee discussion nao) CG at really low percents that leads to 9%+throw/utilt strings/FP strings/whatever it is, which does help a bit though for damage racking.
Yeah, I agree AS is pretty risky, but it does happen to occasionally come around as an option. If the lucario DI'd after a horizontal trajectory, imo he's going to do a lot better if he knows what he's doing than if he's going to recover below stage.
Edit: Oh yeah, and we've got that new Dash attack stuff from SSK that is supposed to work really well on fox too, which is arguably one of our best setup moves for strings at mid/low percents.

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DarkAura said:

like phil said above it's all about the stage. Fox will most likely go for Halberd, or Delfino (atleast i go for delfino...)if not delfino then battle field or FD. So whatever Luca's best stage is use that but avoid halberd.

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phi1ny3 said:

I agree that fox's metagame has gone to the point where the old "60:40 lucario's favor" statement has to be changed, but I'm not sure about fox having an advantage, although it's a very evenish fight imo. iirc, for stages, avoid halberd as lucario. imo I liek Frigate, Japes, and YI.

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Rockettrainer said:

Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
-Since Fox will be killing with mostly vertical moves, avoid any stage with a low ceiling. For neutrals, avoid PS1.
-Since Fox will rely mainly on his Fox Illusion for recovery, pick stages that have passable floors. Delfino is an okay choice. If you're not comfortable with this, pick a stage with a LARGE ceiling, like Pictochat or Japes. Most spacies hate Lylat because of the tilting stage, so you could try there.

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Rockettrainer said:

Once all the characters are done (I would imagine before the end of the year, right?), it would be wise to go back and rediscuss everyone, since the metagame has slightly changed for some characters.

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