Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #11: Pikachu

TLMSheikant · Sep 7, 2009

Pikachu Matchup Thread

Slight Advantage 55-45

Pikachu frame data by K Prime
Toon Link frame data by Rutger

Best Stage to fight Pikachu on:

Battlefield

Other good stages:
-Lylat Cruise
-Yoshi's Island

Worst Stage to fight Pikachu on:

Final Destination

Other bad stages:
-Smashville
-Rainbow Cruise

Summary:
A very evenish matchup. Usually Toon Link has less trouble than pikachu though thanks to his range advantage and camping. Toon Link also kills Pikachu earlier than Pikachu can kill him too. Pikachu will want to get in close and rack up as much damage as possible with each approach. Pikachu will use Full hop thunderjolts to look for an opening. Toon Link will want to stay away from Pikachu and abuse his bombs, zair and rang to make Pikachu's approaching rather difficult.

Thunderjolts cancel arrows and boomerang but that doesnt mean you shouldnt use them, they are still helpful in this matchup. Bombs will be your most used proyectile though, since it stops Pikachu's QAC, goes through Thunderjolts and Pikachu generally has trouble getting through them. Zair also goes through Thunderjolts and its great range can cause a lot of headache to Pikachu's bad range. Beware of Pikachu's thunder when recovering, its an excellent edgeguard and Toon Link's linear UpB makes it even more of a threat. Dont crossup Pikachu's shield so much at 30ish percents because the Pikachu might upair OoS footstool QAC lock which means death, of course if the Pikachu doesnt mess up. ALWAYS DI his usmash and be on the lookout for potential thunder kills off the top. Bair is great in this matchup as always and outranges most of Pikachu's moves. Upair is one of Pikachu's best moves and down air beats it, that doesnt mean that you should spam it though like always, refrain from using Down Air much.

Stages: Generally you will want to avoid flat stages as it can be more difficult to camp pikachu in such stages. ie: FD, SV. And you will want to counterpick stages with lots of platforms to make his thunderjolt camping...less annoying. XD ie: Battlefield, YI.

Moves to watch out for the most:
QAC, Jolts, Upair, Nair, Fair, Utilt, Thunder, Fsmash, Upsmash.

Moves that are very helpful in this matchup:
Zair, Bombs, Boomerang, Bair, Utilt, Upair, Nair, Upsmash, Dair!?.

TL;DR- Pikachu is cool. And lrn 2 read walls of text noob.

Kaffei · Sep 7, 2009

50;50 IMO.
Pikachu's outcamped, but he's so small that hitting him with our projectiles isn't always easy. I think spamming them is key to shutting down Pikachu's options.
TL's Dair >Pika's Uair
We have to be careful in the air because of his Thunder, & his QAC approach is pretty fast, but bombs>QAC
Just my 2 cents. >_<
Maybe 55:45. Idk.

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage · Sep 7, 2009

Lmao at Pikachu pic. 60 - 40 TL

Kaffei · Sep 7, 2009

What are Pikachu's kill moves? Fsmash, Thunder, Usmash.. Nair?

TheVince · Sep 7, 2009

Kaffei said:
50;50 IMO.
Pikachu's outcamped, but he's so small that hitting him with our projectiles isn't always easy. I think spamming them is key to shutting down Pikachu's options.

Yeah... ^this

Tjolts cancel arrows and boomerangs, but bombs go through tjolts (so use em wisely)

Kaffei said:
What are Pikachu's kill moves? Fsmash, Thunder, Usmash.. Nair?

All of the above, Skull Bash can kill if you get hit by it (not likely, but it deserves to be mentioned) and utilt can kill at higher percentages (maybe)

These videos might be helpful... They are from yesterday or something.

Legendary Pikachu said:
*******************
Pinnacle of Sibling rivalry....
LDPK vs. Arc-thefallen-.... His own lil' brother! =O
*******************

So I've been sorta helpin' /sorta inactive/ sorta active lately, and have come to see that there are few Pika vs. Toon Link vids. One person in Q&A asked for help about the matchup....

Since I've been so blessed with a lil' brother Toon Link main, I've decided to upload some recent videos for the opening thread in *hacked quality*. Hope this helps even if its just but a little.

*NOTICE* ~ It is my personal opinion that my bro is THE best Toon Link in the nation (what else can I say... I am his brother... :/). However, let your eyes witness and yourselves be entertained--my brother the 'berserker' Toon Link; he is no pushover. Lol

Enjoy!

MM best of 5:

1 of 5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5nX-CvndlA ~ This match is dedicated to Galax! :D (sb ko)
2 of 5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx58OJGmLbw
3 of 5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUGUJiO8jw4 ~ EPIC! *IF you only have time to watch 3, watch these* My brother fights for a comeback
4 of 5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn5e3lGtgYE ~ EPIC! (my loss but the match was so good... I had to add music ^_^) *IF you only have time to watch 3, watch these*
5 of 5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcLU9-r9S5c ~ Epic Spike this is dedicated to Stealthraptor GRAND FINALE' *IF you only have time to watch 3, watch these* Guess who won?

Hope everyone likes the vids.

I'd have no say 50:50 match up overall, possibility of a slight advantage for TL

Kaffei · Sep 7, 2009

There's also a video of HyRo vs Jnig.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9Vvc9nvYkg
Idk if it's a good teaching video, though. I'd appreciate it if one of the more pro TLs came in & elaborates.

Self Distructo · Sep 7, 2009

55:45 tl. Thunderjolt is annoying.

Kaffei · Sep 7, 2009

Self Distructo said:
55:45 tl. Thunderjolt is annoying.

Is full hopping over them a bad idea, even if you space yourself in a moderately safe position?

Legendary Pikachu · Sep 7, 2009

50:50... me and my bro go back and forth quite a lot--tho i would lean on Toon Link having an advantage (greater damage output) if i couldn't choose straight-up even.

I guess whoever racks more damage and gets the first kill (both have sorta wierd killing moves with Toon Link's being harder to land).

DI'ing u-tilt, u-smash, d-smash, non-sweetspot f-smash and thunder (all parts of the thunder gimp ko) are a MUST-know.

As for the vids of my bro vs. me... i guess some of the things only worked because he and I know each other's playstyle far too well--so take them with a grain of salt.

I personally have my own strategy against fighting Toon Links depending on what they do more often. Mostly mindgames and reading (my forte) after a certain point.

1) Z-airs.... I space a lagged t-jolt so the chain doesn't cancel it or powershield rising n-air.
2) B-airs.... Toon Link's getting behind me get u-tilts, u-airs, and dsmashes most of the time.
3) Boomerangs.... Dodge then I close in the distance as fast as possible in any way possible.
4) Arrows.... powershield or jump over them and QaC or something else depending on spacing
5) Bombs.... Quite a toss-up there... other than trying to beat the lil' guy up before he pulls it out (or as he's pulling it) I rely on my psychic powers after that point... lol
6) D-airs.... If you land them... props--they outprioritize every one of pika's moves save thunder. If you miss them... I hit you (while laughing...j/k).
7) N-airs.... if you retreat you'll take a t-jolt (quick-draw won't help you if pika spaces right), if you invade another n-air/u-air/u-smash/dsmash.
8) Grab... well... I hope you guys miss...

That's pretty much the "checklist" for me. Real combat environment/people's aura/mindgames/frustration makes up the rest. When I am on a streak, i like zipping around 4'ish projectiles at once and winning. When I NOT on a streak... it's friggin' hard to catch that lil' booger. I like this matchup a lot just because it feels very fluid for me and my bro (like a battle of the titans... lol). I hope you guys feel the same. I'd appreciate facing other Toon Links. You guys can catch me in NC anytime you guys are around (or in Austin, TX when I am visiting my relatives... >:D).

Props to anyone the electric squirrel can't catch.

Hope that helps... even a lil'.

PS. Since I was so kind to reveal some of my sorta-well-kept-notes, please come and visit the friendly pikachu community forums and share some of your secrets too! ^_^. In fact, feel free to talk randomly in our social chat, you guys will be welcomed (just tell them that LDPK invited ya... lol).

EDIT: @ TheVince: About projectiles, sometimes a balled up t-jolt can make it through grounded arrow when it unwinds... just thought i'd add that so no one is surprised. Boomerang and Bombs matrix/lagg pikachu's thunder (blastbox and invincibility) so any quick followups after should be avoided if the situation presents itself. Bombs blow-up with balled up t-jolt.

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage · Sep 7, 2009

55 - 45 TL. He's light as hell. o.O All I'm gonna say.

TLMSheikant · Sep 7, 2009

Theres not much difference in weight I think. I was about to survive an utilt from DDD when I played against Ling Ling (saturday) as pika with perfect DI to the side and upair @ 119 but fell short just by a little. And as TL I did survive @ 118% with perfect DI to the side and bair fast fall but barely so theres not much difference in weight I think. Anyway, I think this is 55-45 TL too. Ive played the matchup both ways. And TL's range, bombs and sword can be a pain for pikachu to get through. And as TL Ive had almost no trouble beating the pikachus Ive faced at least. Zair and bombs>tjolt. Thats just my opinion though. I still want to hear what other Toon Links/Pikachus have to say.

Sosuke · Sep 7, 2009

TL can survive to higher percents then Pikachu. Not by thaaaat much though.

WindMajor · Sep 7, 2009

Killing Pikachu is difficult, since he's really small and quick. Pikachu should have an easier time killing us. D-Smash CAN kill you if you don't know how to DI. If you DI upwards, you should be safe from knockback. Things we have to watch out for is getting hit by a thunder when we're high up in the stage. Thunderjolt cancels out with our boomerang, and I THINK our arrows. Arrows are terrible in this matchup, so I don't recommend using it. Good moves for TL would be our aerials like Bair, Nair, Fair, and possibly Uair. I'm not too sure about Uair.

I heard Pika has a chaingrab. Is it good? Does it only work on certain percents? What are Pika's killing moves? Counterpics/Bans?

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage · Sep 7, 2009

Yeah when I face my cousins Pikachu he has to work a lot harder than me to try to win, of course, his Pikachu has never beaten me no matter how hard he tries.

He's not the best Pikachu but he knows what he's doing. Maybe he just doesn't know the Toon Link matchup. Up until now I stick to 55 - 45 Toon Link.

@ TWiNK: I would ban Final Destination and probably Battlefield. I would probably take them to Yoshi's Island.

Sosuke · Sep 7, 2009

Arrow cancel his thunder and take less time to happen if you QD.
Arrows are really good in this match up.
All the projectiles are if you know how to use them.

His Dsmash is really easy to DI out of an punish.

TLMSheikant · Sep 7, 2009

Yeah the dsmash is :/ the last hit never connects lol. I use utilt a lot more than dsmash since its so easy to DI dsmash and is not as useful (except for tech chasing). I wouldnt go as far as being able to punish pika out of dsmash tho. Even if you get out ,it sends u too far in tumble to be able to do anything to him. Beware of utilt, its dangerous. Best move to follow up with a thunder (and fsmash sourspot/usmash).

Sosuke · Sep 7, 2009

You DI it and punish at low percents.
You DI it and tech towards him at high percents then punish,

TLMSheikant · Sep 7, 2009

Actually the second one wont work. Your roll is too slow to be able to punish pika in time. Ive gotten kills like that after a down smash (they tech roll toward me and i Usmash to thunder them).

Sosuke · Sep 7, 2009

That's why you DI out of it early and not near the last hit.

Legendary Pikachu · Sep 8, 2009

Yea... I agree with sasukebowser. A free punch is THERE... tho harder for a couple of TL's to find. That's why I start doing my Dsmashes when my opponent is preoccupied with DI'ing sideways for setting up a move or kil... that or I do Dsmash near the ledge (even if you DI perfect, you'll be knock just far enough offstage so that b-air will whiff when you attempt it. If you DI late and land in the inward side of stage, then pika will recover.

Seems like Sasuke has admirable experience fighting pikachus. In my honest opinion (note! its just an opinion) i can't really say that many pika's even see the really good Toon Link's (exceptions. K-prime, anther, and Z). So in a small way, your advantage that few pika's face TL's personally.

It's been a rule of thumb for me to try to NEVER get hit by any projectile. It seems that against a good toon link, one projectile hit = lots o' damage or ko following after.... O_O

We should have like a small game.... "Whack the pikachu!" where you have like 2 toon links attempting to hit me with a projectile and first to hit me gets a cookie...lol. It'll be good practice for me.

P!1 · Sep 13, 2009

50:50 imo. I guess TL outcamps Pikachu and we can spam alot more, but Thunder jolt is pretty dynamic in the right stages (the ones with a lot of ledges). Uhh Tjolt cancells Arrows and Boomerang but not bombs I think. So bombs away Tinks. Then again he's really small and fast so I guess you could just bomb in random places as a mindgame, THEN hit him with arrows, rangs and combos! But then thats not likely. HMM. Pika has some nice moves in the air and on the ground, above posts are right, Dsmash is meh :l
So start some combos there. Zair his face if Pika tries sumthin funny :>

Question, I heard Pika can escape some combos by trying to get lucky in a Quick Attack. True? If so does that include our combos?

Legendary Pikachu · Sep 13, 2009

P!1 said:
Question, I heard Pika can escape some combos by trying to get lucky in a Quick Attack. True? If so does that include our combos?

Well it depends what you mean by "our combos." If its a combo that requires pikachu to land, a lucky QaC will change pikachu's landing spot so that's one way. Another is to QaC through a boomerang (requires specific spacing) and that sorta escapes boomerang combos. If what you mean by combo's is b-air juggling, with the exeption of pika's weight, pika isn't really that different in comboing even with Quick attack (Pika's QaC is not fast enough to execute between consecutive combo b-airs).

Popcornio · Sep 14, 2009

I have to lean towards 55:45 Toon Link.

TJolts can be annoying when trying to recover so depending on the stage and when your recovering low, you can use a Tether Recovery to dodge those few TJolts that are on the stage but when doing this watch out for the possible N-air gimp.

Also, watch out for the QaC approach, they can easily catch you off guard.

demonictoonlink · Sep 14, 2009

I'm pretty sure it's 50-50, but if I had to give the advantage, I'd say Toon Link's favor.

P!1 · Sep 15, 2009

Legendary Pikachu said:
Well it depends what you mean by "our combos." If its a combo that requires pikachu to land, a lucky QaC will change pikachu's landing spot so that's one way. Another is to QaC through a boomerang (requires specific spacing) and that sorta escapes boomerang combos. If what you mean by combo's is b-air juggling, with the exeption of pika's weight, pika isn't really that different in comboing even with Quick attack (Pika's QaC is not fast enough to execute between consecutive combo b-airs).

I seee. Thats good to know. Bair Comboing really is the best thing I can do with TL, Its what racks up damage the fastest for me. So guess thats cool. Thanks :D

TLMSheikant · Sep 17, 2009

Wow, not much info here. :/ Im guessing TLs dont play much pikas and vice versa. So 55-45 TL?

TheJerm · Sep 17, 2009

Haha, there's only like 3 pikas.. thats why =/

WindMajor · Sep 17, 2009

We still haven't heard from Anther.

I'll edit this post with lots of information later when I'm not doing homework.

Dalub · Sep 17, 2009

.........................................................

Legendary Pikachu · Sep 17, 2009

TLMSheikant said:
Wow, not much info here. :/ Im guessing TLs dont play much pikas and vice versa. So 55-45 TL?

Not a lot of info eh?

*plz look at my past posts in the TL forums and this thread*

What more were you guys looking for besides what I already said. If you want to know anything else, I'd be happy to answer cuz I feel that I am a pikachu that has the most experience against Toon Link's (possibly w/ exception of only Anther). Even then, most of the times where Pika wins or TL win's is because either the GOOD Toon Link was not used to fighting a GOOD pika, or the Pika was not used to fighting a GOOD Toon Link. My personal selling point (^_^) is that I continually and daily face a good TL main (my rival) where I am GOOD and WIN and also get BEATEN by him. It's not just him that i've faced--i have 100% whooped all other TL's in all singles tournies I've ever played, even 3-stocked the supposed 'best TL' in NC (NC PR's).

Me and my brother are at a point where both are completely aware of the other's potential and tricks and fight the matchup seared into our minds.

True I do agree that NC is not a BIG scene as TX or other states, but I've played well against OoS a few times too (example. a friendly between HRnut's Marth against my pika... I beat him).

So plz ask away. ^_^

Smith · Sep 17, 2009

Legendary Pikachu said:
Not a lot of info eh?

*plz look at my past posts in the TL forums and this thread*

What more were you guys looking for besides what I already said. If you want to know anything else, I'd be happy to answer cuz I feel that I am a pikachu that has the most experience against Toon Link's (possibly w/ exception of only Anther). Even then, most of the times where Pika wins or TL win's is because either the GOOD Toon Link was not used to fighting a GOOD pika, or the Pika was not used to fighting a GOOD Toon Link. My personal selling point (^_^) is that I continually and daily face a good TL main (my rival) where I am GOOD and WIN and also get BEATEN by him. It's not just him that i've faced--i have 100% whooped all other TL's in all singles tournies I've ever played, even 3-stocked the supposed 'best TL' in NC (NC PR's).

Me and my brother are at a point where both are completely aware of the other's potential and tricks and fight the matchup seared into our minds.

True I do agree that NC is not a BIG scene as TX or other states, but I've played well against OoS a few times too (example. a friendly between HRnut's Marth against my pika... I beat him).

So plz ask away. ^_^

We've never played, bro.

Legendary Pikachu · Sep 17, 2009

Smith said:
We've never played, bro.

Well the 3 were other TL's and NOT you (remember i went C3 a while ago and faced 1 TL there), plus the 'best TL' i was referring to was Fritz cuz sometime on the day I beat him... ppl mentioned that he was the 'best' (whether true or not--i dunno... that's why i put quotes when i said "best").

Anyways... sorry if it sounded like I dissed you... remember since we didn't face, you don't apply quite yet so no worries ^_^! (I only whooped all the ones I 'did' face.) :D

Just you hope we're not in the same bracket this sunday... lol... (half-j/k). :D

TheJerm · Sep 17, 2009

I think anther is going to no koast. And im more than likely going. I'll **** some pika and tell you guys what I think. From the two pika's I've played though, I'd say even.

Smith · Sep 17, 2009

Legendary Pikachu said:
Well the 3 were other TL's and NOT you (remember i went C3 a while ago and faced 1 TL there), plus the 'best TL' i was referring to was Fritz cuz sometime on the day I beat him... ppl mentioned that he was the 'best' (whether true or not--i dunno... that's why i put quotes when i said "best").

Anyways... sorry if it sounded like I dissed you... remember since we didn't face, you don't apply quite yet so no worries ^_^! (I only whooped all the ones I 'did' face.) :D

Just you hope we're not in the same bracket this sunday... lol... (half-j/k). :D

It's fine. I understand. Cya Sunday.

Radori Nighthawk · Sep 17, 2009

*Has no experience in this matchup*

I'mma just say 55/45 Pika sheerly on Pikachu's size alone.

TLMSheikant · Sep 17, 2009

What are possible good stages in this matchup? What should we ban?

Dalub · Sep 17, 2009

....................................................

Lobos · Sep 17, 2009

basically we like platforms because camping pika is gay on flat stages with no platforms

TLMSheikant · Sep 18, 2009

Summary

Slight Advantage 55-45

Pikachu frame data by K Prime
Toon Link frame data by Rutger

Best Stage to fight Pikachu on:

Battlefield

Other good stages:
-Lylat Cruise
-Yoshi's Island

Worst Stage to fight Pikachu on:

Final Destination

Other bad stages:
-Smashville
-Rainbow Cruise

Summary:
A very evenish matchup. Usually Toon Link has less trouble than pikachu though thanks to his range advantage and camping. Toon Link also kills Pikachu earlier than Pikachu can kill him too. Pikachu will want to get in close and rack up as much damage as possible with each approach. Pikachu will use Full hop thunderjolts to look for an opening. Toon Link will want to stay away from Pikachu and abuse his bombs, zair and rang to make Pikachu's approaching rather difficult.

Thunderjolts cancel arrows and boomerang but that doesnt mean you shouldnt use them, they are still helpful in this matchup. Bombs will be your most used proyectile though, since it stops Pikachu's QAC, goes through Thunderjolts and Pikachu generally has trouble getting through them. Zair also goes through Thunderjolts and its great range can cause a lot of headache to Pikachu's bad range. Beware of Pikachu's thunder when recovering, its an excellent edgeguard and Toon Link's linear UpB makes it even more of a threat. Dont crossup Pikachu's shield so much at 30ish percents because the Pikachu might upair OoS footstool QAC lock which means death, of course if the Pikachu doesnt mess up. ALWAYS DI his usmash and be on the lookout for potential thunder kills off the top. Bair is great in this matchup as always and outranges most of Pikachu's moves. Upair is one of Pikachu's best moves and down air beats it, that doesnt mean that you should spam it though like always, refrain from using Down Air much.

Stages: Generally you will want to avoid flat stages as it can be more difficult to camp pikachu in such stages. ie: FD, SV. And you will want to counterpick stages with lots of platforms to make his thunderjolt camping...less annoying. XD ie: Battlefield, YI.

Moves to watch out for the most:
QAC, Jolts, Upair, Nair, Fair, Utilt, Thunder, Fsmash, Upsmash.

Moves that are very helpful in this matchup:
Zair, Bombs, Boomerang, Bair, Utilt, Upair, Nair, Upsmash, Dair!?.

TL;DR- Pikachu is cool. And lrn 2 read walls of text noob.

Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #11: Pikachu

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